ZvolTx.3165

ITT: bad zerg/guild-run players coping and defending an objectively broken gameplay mechanism while strawmanning.

First off, that interaction with SA in PvP, can we get that in WvW too? Now that that's out of the way.... What if it worked with shortbow too? The concept of the malicious surprise shot seems like it could be a fun, unique, and potentially strong small group WvW skill, if only for a reliable way to access stealth on shortbow. Stealth on dodge with shortbow too would make this work. Combine that with rending shade for aoe immob+boonsteal anyone? Thoughts?

Sylvari male or charr for sure. Here's one of my salads and the different looks/themes I have on him rn. https://imgur.com/a/kDIge38 https://imgur.com/a/HduQ9Db

I just like that +init on reveal change to shadow rejuv idea as a way to reduce d/p and rifle permastealth. I agree that other balance changes (nerfs in other classes) are needed to make sure thief is still capable, but that's a separate issue. This current balance severely handicaps thief v thief fights fo non-permastealth builds. Also just saying but... most of my builds aren't even running trickery anymore and I'm still beating most wb, sb, harb, etc that I come across. In-class build diversity is at one of its best states the game has ever had, EXCEPT for the rifle DE and d/p interaction with shadows rejuv allowing on demand functional permastealth with zero cost and little counterplay. Change this and thief v thief (the peak of dueling) balance becomes significantly better.

This would be good. We'd all be happy then! Who needs the 2 initiative?!

I like this idea. There are some builds that are only possible because of shadows rejuv, especially opening up non-trickery options. The current iteration however unfortunately leads to d/p being even more broken than it was during the permastealth days. Back with permastealth, especially before bound, doing a BP+4xHS was something that 1: took fairly good timing and positioning to do, and 2: offers perfect counterplay by just standing on the BP to force reveal or force them to stop stacking. Now, it's incredibly easy to maintain 99% stealth that is far harder to counterplay.... leading me to... The real offender now is BP HS....HS. You are only unstealthed for a brief moment at the end of your HS animation if you time it so you HS again through the field at the very end, regaining stealth from the combo JUST as the first stealth runs out. It makes maintaining functionally permastealth much easier, only requiring basic timing ability to do it well enough to make it extremely difficult to counterplay with a short enough unstealthed gap. Now, all you need to know is the trick and you'll never run out of initiative since it also procs the trait with this method. You can also stand away from the field to avoid damage and leap into it at the end. Plus you can't be forced revealed doing it since you're not getting damage frames while stealthed on the HS to re-stealth... It's a far more annoying build to face than the old slow permastealth builds that took slightly more skill to play and had more counterplay on other thief builds. These days you can do this easily while still running dash, so you can't get locked down AND can permastealth... the safest high spike build in the game easily. A DE on SA rifle that knows how to use this same timing on rifle 4 is also broken. To regain initiative on revealed rather than unstealthed would be a great way to reduce this ability to easily permastealth without skill or counterplay. I do still like the 1 init on stealth though. I often use cele p/p bound if I come across annoying cele builds or similarly broken af builds that I don't wanna fight an uphill battle against. As great as it is, I admit that it would probably be healthier to promote an aggressive play style through encouraging stealth attacks rather than stealth stacking with a basic timing trick. A trick that lets you maintain permanent control over pacing in a fight with very little skill or game knowledge. Cele p/p bound isn't really as strong as it used to be, tbh tho. Relic change removed the aristocracy synergy that let you maintain 10-15 might easily.. D/P with SA and DE rifle SA are the biggest issues for sure, but the change would be healthy all around I think. I really don't care about what boring d/p thieves think about "but muh I can't fight XYZ class/build then". Over-performing builds should be balanced down, that's what should be advocated for. Not everyone wants to play the weapon set that's been defacto thief meta since late 2012 when popularized by a top PvP player. It gets boring fighting 95% d/p thieves for over a decade.

I most certainly have well over a thousand defense credits from defending camps against other solo players. It's not a hard one to get, like 5 minutes on homebl and it's often my first one done. All I do is run to where the swords are

Vanguard: POWER PRECISION toughness vitality

I'm okay with them being different. Inconvenient for organized PvE, yes. Not an issue otherwise really. Id rather they just buff the class to make things like your complaint less impactful on class performance.

They should also be thematic, ideally no? The additional signet effects aren't particularly one way or another, I guess. Having a brief period of unblockable precision attacks after activating a signet in "critical strikes" is absolutely adjusting/enhancing the existing trait-line. It's a brief period of being able to get through/around any armor with the magic signet activation. I don't dislike the old/your design, better than the current, but still I don't think that would add as much for potential gameplay opportunities and opening up gameplay styles as an unblockable option. I don't see it as conflict, as there's no necessary way it must be. If anything, I think having a general effect that happens with signet activation makes equally or more sense as adding each signet gaining an additional effect. Former is more like an affinity with signets, latter seems like unlocking a new ability for their passive? It's an effect that triggers passively during combat at a predictable rate, it's even tied to the passive state of signets! There's no way that's not passive Twin fangs is nice for engages and all, but against non-NPCs it's a pretty low impact trait. Being able to headshot through a shelter if you can time it and are willing/able to blow your signet would be a great active gameplay choice. Or to use the period to contribute to zerg fights in WvW in a close to mid-range power-spike role with unblockable cluster bombs, orchestrated assaults, and cunning salvos. It could finally give thief a fun and playable spot in large scale WvW. There's a ton of other great potential use cases for it. It would on it's own have the potential to give thief players a way to meaningfully participate in a pivotal part of the game for the first time in ages, if not ever, really. Makes sense to me, makes sense within universe, within trait-line, within gameplay possibilities... Although if anything it would probably be too overpowered to be honest. Again I don't hate the old design but.. it was kinda boring and not worth taking outside of super casual open world pve for the most part. Crits would be better but still boring and just adding another thing that triggers automatically when fighting, mostly passive gameplay. Signet of shadows had some active gameplay from it, but basically useless outside of open world. Pretty athematic too.. a trait in critical strikes, that makes a signet that makes you run faster, but also can make a flash of smoke that blinds people... will now also make you go stealth... when you kill something??? Theme-wise, initiative makes equally no sense, like activating a signets magic replenishes energy/initiative/whatever... which is related to "critical strikes" how? It's just boring and pretty unimpactul in WvW/PvP, and I assume it doesn't synergize well with organized pve and casual pve either. Maybe just add 2s unblockable to the 2 initiative. Then it like rhymes... with numbers.

I would argue that passive effects such as this are worse design. There's no new or alternative gameplay, all you're doing is adding a passive buff to do what? Make it so you can dodge... more? A slight damage buff... passive condition application on % chance? That is definitionally boring and unimpactul on gameplay in any meaningful capacity. WvW/PvP are obvious huge opportunities and potential to be used as spike DPS if it had a reliable source of unblockable.

Does anyone use this trait? 2 Initiative doesn't seem worth it. What if it gave say, 2-5s of unblockable instead (or as well)? Could get thief (especially Axe) into a useable spot for large scale WvW where bubble blocks/reflects are a constant. Thoughts?

When someone mentions or references a/d my eyes glaze over The post is talking about a/p, more specifically within the realms of not pve content. The issue is that for the attack to land on an enemy, both the player AND the axes (all or most of them, ideally)need to be within 900 range of the target, in contrast to just the axes as before. In pve... this doesn't matter. All you do in pve is stand still and mash the same keys in order anyways, obviously there's more than that, but it's fairly static compared to vs players. So against players, and in moving fights, the attack becomes nearly impossible to get a good hit on, and combined with the constant projectile destruction and reflection, most of the time all your attacks are getting destroyed, when they do get through you they get reflected half of those times... before when the player didn't have to be in range and just the axes did, at least the refects wouldn't hit you, now using axe in anything but tiny fights is 90% having zero contribution, 5% hitting one random person for like half their bar, 5% your axes come back at you and take out 80% of your health. And now in small-scale... the counter to axe? Just move around. As long as you don't stand still like a pver, you avoid like 75% of the axe thief's potential just because the targeting is so bad now. Bring back no range on player, only on axes, but def nerf the throwing axes through the walls and that... with a better solution than that lazy no LoS fix. Now the famous "thief dead no los" applies to the weapon skills too. GG fun weapon anet thanks

I want torch but with an elite spec that gives attunements, light and dark. Go between having the torch alit - light attunement - with blinds, light field (+aura w/hs), burning, p/t could be a flare shot that puts a fire field and reveals, etc. maybe permanently revealed when in light attune? Then dark attune has the torch unlit, give it some cc, a dark field (more combo potential), maybe one where you throw the unlit torch at them and it confuses and taunts them.... Throw in a trait that gives a smoke field on attune swap, some other fun stuff and I could see a really fun spec while also fitting the thug/bandit style of thief archetype. Otherwise I vote focus only because the binding of ipos is awesome, but then they should make it melee and a duelist/fencer/grapple type setup instead of magic

This is exactly what I've been doing to good success. Staying beyond max range, setting up axes, letting people push then activating a/p 3 for massive spikes while being completely out of range. It's very much a trapping/set-up type weapon

I've been thinking lately that it would be nice if they made it more of a support line with the effects being aoe, such as swiftness on dodge being aoe with a decent range around you, same with the other boon providing traits. Perhaps a trait that gives aoe endurance gain maybe? Or a signet modifying trait that adds another active effect, such as making agility's endurance gain be aoe to allies, infiltrator sig giving aoe alacrity, assassin sig aoe power boost to allies... etc. Idk, it just seems like a way to make it distinct from its current status as 'no we have daredevil at home'. Group support in a more thief kinda way with the agility/acrobatic theme. I don't know how the PvErs would feel about it, but from the WvW perspective, it seems like a potential way to make a more meaningful support option for thief. Especially because acro is just.. well the recent-ish buffs helped but it's still kinda boring and generally not worth taking unless ur a f2p sword thief. The one interesting interaction with acro was taking the evade on elite and impact strike with celerity sigil to safe quickness finish people, and in the next patch they're making impact strike evade baseline... I suppose if the rest of the chain doesn't evade it may still be worth, but it doesn't have too much usefulness outside of that and Shadowfall somewhat.

I just recently started using s/p bound... from s/p core as my main since 2012 release lol. At some point a few months ago, I finally threw in the towel and gave up on trying to use s/p core, it's just too hard against modern meta builds and wasn't fun fighting impossible battles anymore. Bound has been fun, ofc I'd tried it in the past but didn't really use it a ton cuz I was hellbent on playing core. It offers a lot more than core does, both offensively and defensively. Still struggles against many of the common roaming builds, but it at least gives you a fighting chance. It even has decent to good matchups with some and can do pretty well at picking off zergs.

It doesn't work on Sw 2 and Sw/P 3. I sent an in-game bug report about it immediately after the release of the expac and still no fix.

It's just the pvp lobby npc behavior. The same block mark shows up when you hit them during their dodge rolls, instead of a miss like usual. The AI seems to proc the block/dodge most when multiple hits come in quick succession. Sometimes the animation doesn't play, usually in situations like that on engage with stealth, where the npc doesn't have a target/hasn't moved yet, so the animation just doesn't play for whatever reason

For real. What a missed opportunity.

It does fit into the brawler category, for sure, and staff does offer some AoE through vault, but its still more useful in mid-small scale. It doesn't translate especially well into large-scale, at least not in a pug zerg. It's had some use at times in GvG and that type of organized group, but even then it's been relegated to focus parties and doesn't have the kit to be able to fill similar roles as your typical front-line builds, or into backline DPS roles either. Also, staff DD just isn't what it once was, especially considering the power creep of other options over time. Specter has SOME backline potential, but the small AoE radiuses and reliance on being in melee for wells significantly hampers its performance compared to other options, not to mention the relatively bad survivability in large-scale since the main defensive advantage (personal mobility) doesn't really do much in zerg fights when most of the time you're wanting to stick on your allies. It doesn't exactly fit what you're saying, but I find power P/P daredevil plays run & gun midrange pretty well, bounding in black powder, sneak attack and unloads. P/P does feel pretty underwhelming without SA and DD+bound, though, since the blinds and stealth repositioning really carry the build. I think MH axe would work well with my OH torch wants - similar(ish) theme as well! An idea of mine for steal was to make it a ground target AoE, so that with the right traits you'd have an AoE daze+boonrip+whatever else, probably on a higher CD. It'd be awesome for big fights and could be super valuable, actually earning thief a place in squads.

I'd love to see a bandit or saboteur type spec with torch offhand and light/dark attunements. Ideally fitting into an AoE+brawler type setup that would work well in large-scale WvW content, which has always been missing from Thief. I imagine it having mechanics that prevent stealthing while in light attunement, with the tradeoff of having more powerful skills + AoE or other mechanics which work well in zerg fights, with defensive skills + mechanics and group utility for large-scale while in dark attunement. What's the class currently lacking that you'd like to see added?

I've mained s/p since release, and have played just about every thief build under the sun (for comparison). First year spvp only, then about 95-5 WvW/PvE split after that with only occasional spvp. I'd say in open world, it's great. Good cleave, evade, aoe blind. Other PvE, if you have chill people playing with you who don't care about clearing X instanced content within xx:xx time, then it's fine. If you have a party with more impatient people, it's definitely not great. The DPS just doesn't match what you can get elsewhere on the class. In PvP, it's had its very short moments, but overall sits in a position where a great thief can make it work (depending on team/enemy comps), but generally it's just a lot less effective and just easier to get results on other weapon sets. Grain of salt since this isn't my forte these days, but I suspect a daredevil build with bound utilizing /p 5 for stealth and tactical strike, along with the blinds and PW evades makes for a somewhat effective brawler type build, but is heavily dependent on matchup (common theme in s/p for pvp modes). WvW has a lot of opportunities for the weapon set. As I said, it's been my main mode and s/p has been my main set since the games release, in total. The mobility gained by using the teleport on the 2 skill is your main tool with s/ thief. It serves both as offensive tool to setup damage, but also as a strong defensive utility - by using the teleport back as a dodge. This is especially true on s/p, where you don't have the on demand evade that s/d has. If playing bound daredevil, /p 5 and dodge for stealth etc. as with sPvP is a fairly effective build. I mostly play a core build with the classic burst setup (Deadly Arts, CS, TR). It isn't the most effective build by today's standards, I mostly play it for fun, but it can still compete within certain matchups (especially in thief dueling and power dueling) and it has a strong burst that is relatively safe, and cleaves, that can knock out a few people at once and severely punish opponents if played well and timed/placed correctly. It also can be used with specter to good effect. Using /p 5 with shroud 2 3 and 5 for stealth gives the kit another way to gain stealth outside of daredevil bound dodge. I've spent a good amount of time playing some power s/p spectre to pretty good results, pulling some outnumbered at times even. It's also used on a cele build popularized by a popular thief sindrener, with sc/d and s/p. It's okay with DE I guess. I just don't really like DE in general and find it really clunky, but with the quickness master trait, it can be pretty good at bursting down in just the same way as my core thief build. I just don't like the mark because it lacks the teleport of steal. -- In pvp modes, s/p has a dichotomous existence. It's both easy to use, and difficult to use at the same time. When against easier opponents, it tends to be an easy weapon set. Stun on burst. Against a noob who can barely find their stunbreak, then they get hit by a second one? Yeah, the build plays itself. 233. But against a good player that isn't gonna work. So it becomes more of a chess game, based on using the ports on 2 and a hit and run style to run through enemy CDs while avoiding as much as you can by dodging and teleporting out. Many fights literally involve pressing 2 3-5+ times in a row, to bait dodges, defensive cooldowns, and for the opportunity to land a solid burst. Compared to a d/p thief, it takes immensely more strategic effort and similar mechanical effort when playing/dueling at higher experience levels. Just because of the shenanigans required with multi-ports, stow cancels, targeting, and all kinds of dumb BS you have to do just to outplay many of the common thief roaming/dueling builds with mid-high stealth uptime these days. TL;DR PvE: open world good, instanced meh to bad depending on how much ur group cares about dps PvP: unranked only WvW: roaming. EZ Clap noob slayer weapon, harder to play against better opponents/thiefs, but can be made to work if you're smart and cool and strong.