Twilight Tempest.7584

I don't think people forgot. There were some nerf-engi threads (both Holo and Scrapper) recently. Both Soulbeast and Holo (as well as Spellbreaker) are still power-crept PoF bloat and need some adjustments. I'm not sure why, but I personally see more SlBs in matches than Holos. Maybe SlB has a lower skill floor to be effective and engis are more divided between Holo and Scrapper since both are meta.

You just stated some of the reasons why SLB is in its current position, yet you don't respect these arguments. Remind me of my daughter that wanted a pony couple of years ago - really sweet kid ;) I also stated why those reasons are invalid, but I suppose you ignored that. @Arheundel.6451 said: People playing another overtuned class like mesmers . engies , warriors..pick your poison...but all they share in common is that they're deluded...their own class should be on the chopping board along with soulbeast In case you missed it, many of us here are also calling for Engies and Warriors (SB, Rampage) to be reigned in. Basically any still power-crept spec that's an outlier from the majority. And also in case you missed it, Mesmers already had their turn with the chopping board. It lasted over a year and gutted them anywhere from 50-67% across multiple traits, weapons, and skills, up and down both elites and core. Yes..as a part-time ranger main with over 2k hours I am all for nerfing Sic'em but at the same time I really need engies and warriors to be reigned in as soon as possible , I mainly play ranger to stand a chance against overtuned engies and wars...with everything else I can even use an eleThen I think we're on the same page. :smile:

You just stated some of the reasons why SLB is in its current position, yet you don't respect these arguments. Remind me of my daughter that wanted a pony couple of years ago - really sweet kid ;) I also stated why those reasons are invalid, but I suppose you ignored that. @Arheundel.6451 said: People playing another overtuned class like mesmers . engies , warriors..pick your poison...but all they share in common is that they're deluded...their own class should be on the chopping board along with soulbeast In case you missed it, many of us here are also calling for Engies and Warriors (SB, Rampage) to be reigned in. Basically any still power-crept spec that's an outlier from the majority. And also in case you missed it, Mesmers already had their turn with the chopping board. It lasted over a year and gutted them anywhere from 50-67% across multiple traits, weapons, and skills, up and down both elites and core.

This debate is so powerful it broke the webpage. :p Not sure if it's just me, but all clickables on this page from @shadowpass.4236's post with the Spoiler buttons and up don't work. Everything after it works. The formatting on that post seems strange and none of the Spoiler buttons work. For me at least.

Just to clarify, I'm not calling for SlB to be nerfed into the ground or smiter's booned. Over-nerfs are bad for any class, and SlB is no exception. I'm just saying that while many builds have been greatly toned down, SlB, along with a few other outliers remain noticeably untouched (or barely touched) and out of alignment. It's not even the meme builds that are necessarily a problem, but the hybrid builds that have as good damage as they have sustain, both of which are excellent. Its basic kit is just way overtuned. Things like Sic 'Em that are reasonable in core Ranger get blown way out of proportion on SlB. SlB is conspicuously in need of a real "trade off" in keeping with Anet's recently announced balance direction. And no, sacrificing pet abilities while in Beastmode is not much of a trade off when those abilities are instead used by the SlB to much greater effect. Some have predicted that limiting SlB to one pet and entering and exiting Beastmode counting as pet swap (for those mechanics) are a sensible trade off. Whether it is or not, SlB desperately needs a trade off because as it stands, it's just a far, far better ranger without giving up much at all. Comparisons to Deadeye are telling. It can be said that both DE and Sic 'Em Sniper SlBs served the same role. The difference is DE is as glassy as it gets, with only stealth to survive and disengage. Death's Judgment underwent mutiple nerfs and the nail in DE's coffin was the nerf to stealth. SlB starts off much sturdier and while its snipe may not necessarily be 1-shot, it's certainly 2-shot capable. It's also far less telegraphed which makes it far easier with which to catch opponents off guard, and lacks in counterplay. I would honestly rather have DE in its pre-nerfed state than SlB Snipers. As has already been said, LoS is not a LB trump card. WvW is full of wide open spaces, and even in sPvP, maps like Capricorn and Foefire are quite open. Then there are the long open runs between nodes of all maps. And that's all assuming one can even react near instantly to quickness- and damage-boosted Rapid Fire, sometimes out of stealth. Or in the middle of a team fight when one is already engaged and a SlB slips in from elsewhere and focuses you. Same role as DE, but far less obvious until too late. Top players may have the years of experience to effectively counter these tactics, but that doesn't change the fact that it is just too effective in the vast majority of the base, for relatively little skill and effort. This basic argument sent all varieties of Mesmer into B-class. Why should the standards change when a different profession is in question?

Ummm.. no?

This is cute coming from you. ;) First off, I didn't play mes competitively until after it was gutted. I've only known the obliterated version. Second, didn't you say you main Ranger, not Soulbeast? I admit, part of my reason for starting a separate SlB thread is to see if they can collectively generate enough noise to get something done. It certainly worked on mesmer. The double standards may be insurmountable though. Make just the right amount of noise so as not to burn the class into Oblivion... Good luck :'( For the record, I don't want Soulbeast--or anything--burned into oblivion. Unlike some, I just want remaining PoF and other outliers reigned in with those who've already been toned down.

I admit, part of my reason for starting a separate SlB thread is to see if they can collectively generate enough noise to get something done. It certainly worked on mesmer. The double standards may be insurmountable though.

I generally refrain from calling for outright nerfs, but it is beyond time for Soulbeast to have its turn with the nerf bat like everyone else. I don't care if we're talking Boonbeast, Sic 'Em Sniper, or anything in between. Just far too much sustain for its level of output--period. Or far too much damage for its level of sustain, take your pick. Either way, far too effective for how safe it is to play. LOS iS yOuR fRiEnd I don't care if LOS can counter Longbow. You don't always have access to LOS every time they start blasting you with heavily boosted Rapid Fire from somewhere off screen. Many builds are left with a chunk of their health gone, and a dodge blown before even engaging thanks to a SlB mashing a few keys from [Edit] 1500+ 1800+ range while you're running or fighting someone else. SnIpEr iS a RoLe I don't care if Sic 'Em Sniper can be compared to how Deadeye was. Death's Judgment was way more telegraphed on a build that was as glass as it gets, and look what happened to it. It'S nOt EvEn UsEd aT ToP LeVeL/mAt I don't care if Soulbeast is not the most viable in the top 10% when it's over performing in the remaining 90%. Reality Check Even as Soulbeast escapes balance update after balance update untouched, it gets indirectly buffed when potential counters like Mesmer have most of their Reflection deleted. As it stands, Soulbeast is one of only a couple specs that have not seen real, build-altering nerfs since creation. Way too many stacking damage modifiers, excessive unblockable, and trait synergies resulting in a literal beast of an overtuned spec. I'm looking at you: Unstoppable Union, Sic 'Em, Strength of the Pack, coupled with Maul, Worldy Impact, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Fire, etc. Way too much sustain via access to stealth, mobility, protection + heal on dodge, boon spam, and invuln, and way too much damage relative to that amount of sustain--on all viable builds. Way too safe to play by dealing huge damage at max range, and way too forgiving thanks to pets and passives. Even if the Soulbeast messes up, even if it's downed, their self-res is best-in-game thanks to their pets. Speaking of pets, there are zero consequences for their pets dying since they're instantly revived after being merged and unmerged. It's the ultimate low-risk, high-reward, no trade-offs spec. [Edit] If Soulbeast doesn't get hit, and hit hard, in the next major balance update, they are apparently immune to change, and a big part of why inter-class balance is so broken. All I want is for SLB damage to be toned down as part of a universal reverse power-creeping. However that is best accomplished, I trust to the profession experts. Suggestions That Have Been Made: Reduce Sic 'Em damage modifier from 40% to 20% (or less) in Beast Mode, or even remove it completely. Others have suggested leaving damage but cutting range from 2,000 to 1,000 (or less) to tone down long range snipes and shift the boost towards melee. Regardless, I would suggest only changing its interaction in Beat Mode in order not to punish core Ranger.Make Unstoppable Union's unblockable effect apply only to the next [certain number of] attacks instead of for the next 4 seconds.Generally tone down SLB's best-in-game damage multiplier stacking which can reach 82%!As a trade off with core Ranger (currently there are none), limit SLB to one pet.Trevor Boyer.6524's suggestions emphasizing reductions to Unblockable, halving Sic 'Em range, and more even damage distribution.Follow-Ups: 05/17/19: My less-ranty opinion here.06/02/19: Yummy combat log screen here.

What you shouldn't forget, though, is that on the other side might be a guy who has actually spent time learning his class, playing lots of PvP/WvW and is by all means a better player than the Scrapper, and still can't win. If I was, like, a Weaver or Mesmer main, and came across this unkillable wall that - by all means - can be played by a 3-legged kitten monkey with 500ms ping and a blindfold on, I'd be pretty annoyed as well. Dunno if that's just me, but easier-to-play classes should be weaker. And if the scrapper is a better player?Somewhat irrelevant when the skill floor is so low that most anyone can pick it up and be a giant pain in say 75% of MMR.

I'm sold. This is certainly miles better than what we have now for gauging actual contributions to the win condition. These metrics are far more indicative of a player's overall value and knowledge of the game mode than sheer win-loss ratio. Some additional benefits are insulation from poor matchmaking--you can still climb even if your team loses! But not without trying to win by playing effectively. It would also hamper win-trading schemes since rank is no longer simply tied to wins. This is the kind of forward-thinking overhaul Conquest desperately needs to revitalize its playerbase, pique new interest, and promote informed play by properly assessing player influence on match outcome.

One can only hope. Though I have noticed a gradual uptick in complaints about the other meta builds lately. They're even getting their own complaint threads, though not nearly to the extent mesmer has. It's like people are finally seeing the elephant in the room with this upcoming patch where Soulbeast, Scrapper, Holo, and Spellbreaker are completely untouched as far as nerfs, while Mesmer's year of nerfs continues. Soulbeast, Scrapper, Holo, and Spellbreaker are all some of the most balanced, highest risk high reward, highest skill cap builds to have ever existed in the history of this game. Mirage deserved all the nerfs it got and then some. Even what they've done isn't enough to kitten mirage and kitten mesmer as a whole. I am enjoying your troll posts. :joy: I hope you're right. I do get the sense that the updates are always however many months behind the meta, and it's a prolonged period of catch-up. I'd like to say that with this latest update they have pretty much "caught up" to Mesmer's degree of being over tuned. They've deleted the top two remaining things even honest Mes mains said were broken: Evasive Mirror and Scepter 3 damage. It's debatable whether they addressed these in the best way, but they took several swings of the nerf bat nonetheless. Unfortunately, too many of the nerfs to Mesmer in its ongoing 12-months+ of nerfs are simply numbers tweaks rather than reworks. Mesmer aside, if we don't start seeing some serious attention towards the other meta specs in the next update, that will be disappointing. It is just taking way too long to address major problems with overperforming builds. It shouldn't have taken a year to nerf Mesmers, especially considering it was mostly numbers tweaks, and it should not take so long for the other builds either. I think they ought to focus on balancing long-known over-performing builds (the power creep is real) before spending so much time reworking (previously) lesser used specs like Scrapper, Berserker, and Druid. Bring everything down to a reasonable level. Then, and only then, start bringing certain things up. There's several other overperforming meta builds right now to be sure, but of them all chronobunk/mirage have been overtuned the longest, with soulbeast a close second. Portal nerf sucked, Steal nerf is par for the course. Arenanet has a habit of just shanking thieves for no clear reason, labeled as for the sake of balance. They had exhaustion specially made for them and were beaten upside the head with it just out of the blue when someone in the balance team thought unhindered was too strong, and that thieves needed to have their endurance disabled if someone clipped them with cripple, even though Don't Stop in acrobatics does the same thing and thief's best heal removes the effects that would cause exhaustion by default. Then there was the sudden sword thief nerf. Before that it was the "we feel thieves shouldnt do damage now" phase, where people quit their thieves because there was no reason to use them in pvp. Before that it was the sudden removal of ricochet, I was surprised for the former, but not for the latter. at this point I'm used to just playing harder every patch on thief. Sometimes I look to the history of thief nerfs in order to comprehend the ongoing history of mesmer nerfs. :/

One can only hope. Though I have noticed a gradual uptick in complaints about the other meta builds lately. They're even getting their own complaint threads, though not nearly to the extent mesmer has. It's like people are finally seeing the elephant in the room with this upcoming patch where Soulbeast, Scrapper, Holo, and Spellbreaker are completely untouched as far as nerfs, while Mesmer's year of nerfs continues.

Another balance update, some more Mesmer nerfs. That hasn't been new for the past year. What is astonishing is how the other power-crept specs continue escaping. Nerfs are fine, but they need to be applied evenly. This is getting ridiculous.

You beat me to bumping this! Agreed. This seems like a more thought out version of the system I suggested in your discussion. The goal of both is to shift the rankings emphasis from match outcome to individual contribution. The difference is my suggestion is limited to existing stats and systems, while this one introduces a new, probably far more effective, one.

I really like @Curunen.8729's suggestions too. Cutting back c/d on IA to 25s or 30s at most, Jaunt back to 20s (of all the recent changes to c/d, I feel this one the most), and making IH a minor while replacing it with something useful are no brainers. Maybe something with some condition mitigation as an alternative to EM (which itself could stand to be reworked), since Mirage rather lacks in that department.

That's kind of what I was getting at here when I asked if Mesmer was the only class getting straight nerfs and no buffs. Without compensating elsewhere for nerfs, or reworking underutilized mechanics, the last balance update further narrowed choices and solidified already fairly singular ones. The last several balance updates in fact seem to funnel people into an ever shrinking number of viable builds, rather than enabling build diversity. Major one from previous update: Gut portal? Push everyone to Illusionary Ambush.With this latest update: Stack exhaustion? Elusive Mind is even more useless than it already was. IH is still the only choice. Might as well make it baseline as many have suggested.Nerf Ineptitude (and by extension its synergy with Blinding Dissipation)? Anyone who wasn't already running Evasive Mirror and Deceptive Evasion will now.Nerf Axe (for like the second or third time)? Guess they want more scepter. Though tbf, axe still does enough. It's in an okay place now.These are just the obvious things that we already know. Just wish there was a little more "give" with their "take", not to keep certain builds OP, but to allow for variety and diversity.

yep. my main beef too. shouldn't work on stun, pull, launch, push without EM but they have had over a year to change it, so I am not expecting much. Mirage cloak should be cosmetic then revert EM, Mirage will still maintain a second mechanic being Ambush skills. That's a cool idea. Photon forge should be cosmetic, you get that fancy transformation but no photon forge skills.Merge with the pet should be cosmetic, your pet disappears but do nothing.Finally a solution to all balance problems. Mesmer was the only spec to recieve 2 secondary mechanics with PoF, people had EM nerfed over Mirage Cloak.. No need to knee jerk, its a logical solution. Mirage cloak works outside the combat parameters of every other class, to defend that means to encourage more of it in the next expansion. Really? So DE received two mechanics by allowing them to stealth on dodge and mark, which one shall we will make cosmetic only? EM was op before released, lots of mesmers warned ANet of this. Dodge on stealth is because of the Silent Scope trait rework, it used to be on rifle kneel and only applicable when traited... Another knee jerk reaction... Yea, everyone complained about EM because you can dodge while stunned, of those complaints only experienced players or mirage players knew the issue was mirage cloak hence my first comment mentioning to revert EM. I personally see no difference between traiting to stun break on dodge or stealth on dodge, its also the same as traiting to Temp and being given 4 stun breaks on overloads. TLDR: Mirage Cloak is and forever will be a fundamentally flawed design at its core.Defending this opens the door to more specs breaking the combat parameters that every other class is refined too. That doesn't invalidate that de has 2 mechanics. By giving mirage cloak a cosmetic only approach you're actually crippling mirage, like here take this worse dodge but hey it looks good.Before you say it, ambushs apart from axe and sword which are indeed good, are just fillers. Plus axe 2 was drawn in a way that you need to use it with mc. By making mc cosmetic only you'd have to give an evade to axe 2. As for EM, it doesn't need a revert, it needs a redesign, there were several good ideas flying around, like 20% cdr on deception, cleanse a condi and a soft cc.I know some people want to tie dodge while stunned to it. It's a bad idea, dodge while stunned needs simply to go. Since when are major traits class mechanics? Just because it is an on dodge effect that doesn't necessarily make it a class mechanic. By that logic, evasive arcana on ele's arcane spec is a class mecahnic. Isn't mirage cloak a dodge effect too? It's 2 dodge effects (attack while dodging, longer duration) packaged into one. The reason why this is generally considered to be a class mechanic is because it is a core part of the spec that every mirage gets regardless of their trait choices. A DE has to give up the other master major trait choices to get stealth dodge. Edit: Mirage is not the only elite spec that gets 2 class mechanics. Technically weaver does too. However, as the pleb class that it is, ele gets drawbacks attached to its mechanics. Weavers have reduced cds on their attunements, but the drawback is that all attunements go on cd while swapping instead of only the last attunement you used. Weavers also get access to dual skills, but the drawback is that you lose access to your #3 skills unless single attuning, and you get delayed access to the #4 and #5 skills of the attunement you just swapped to. 1 Second evade was given to mirage specifically as a direct result of how garbage and functionally unplayable the entire specialization was during the demo weekend before path of fire was released. Because you lose so much ability to physically get out of danger with mirage cloak because of the loss of mobility the extra evade frames are there to help give a bit of buffer should you need to about face and run out of fire, literally in some circumstances. Because at 0.75s any time you need to about face, or change any direction and move yourself out of danger you've effectively lost evade frames overall compared to a standard dodge roll no matter how fast you move yourself out of danger, mathematically. Isn't superspeed on dodge baseline for mirage? It is but it doesn't account for your need to get out of danger in any direction other than forward. If you need to about face, or go any direction other than forward you're wasting evade frames just to turn even if you use about face to turn as quickly as possible. First off, There is literally a keybind for performing a instant about face. Secondly, if you use your mouse to navigate you can rotate your character almost instantly anyways. Third, the lack of a movement component is not a drawback in PvP in any way. There are very few ground effect cleave skills in this game that last longer than 1s and the ones that do have very little damage per single strike so it's not going to ruin your precious mirage if you take a strike while stepping out. Fourth, the lack of a movement component is one of the biggest benefits of mCloak because it means that mCloak doesn't interrupt revive, stomp, or skill casts in the way that a regular animation does. Fifth, the lack of a movement component means that mirage can dodge while on a narrow ledge or jumping puzzle without falling off. Even so, it still takes that extra fraction of a second of human reaction and input time to accomplish comparable movement. You do raise some clear advantages to MC though. And yes, my mirage is very "precious". :smile:

yep. my main beef too. shouldn't work on stun, pull, launch, push without EM but they have had over a year to change it, so I am not expecting much. Mirage cloak should be cosmetic then revert EM, Mirage will still maintain a second mechanic being Ambush skills. That's a cool idea. Photon forge should be cosmetic, you get that fancy transformation but no photon forge skills.Merge with the pet should be cosmetic, your pet disappears but do nothing.Finally a solution to all balance problems. Mesmer was the only spec to recieve 2 secondary mechanics with PoF, people had EM nerfed over Mirage Cloak.. No need to knee jerk, its a logical solution. Mirage cloak works outside the combat parameters of every other class, to defend that means to encourage more of it in the next expansion. Really? So DE received two mechanics by allowing them to stealth on dodge and mark, which one shall we will make cosmetic only? EM was op before released, lots of mesmers warned ANet of this. Dodge on stealth is because of the Silent Scope trait rework, it used to be on rifle kneel and only applicable when traited... Another knee jerk reaction... Yea, everyone complained about EM because you can dodge while stunned, of those complaints only experienced players or mirage players knew the issue was mirage cloak hence my first comment mentioning to revert EM. I personally see no difference between traiting to stun break on dodge or stealth on dodge, its also the same as traiting to Temp and being given 4 stun breaks on overloads. TLDR: Mirage Cloak is and forever will be a fundamentally flawed design at its core.Defending this opens the door to more specs breaking the combat parameters that every other class is refined too. That doesn't invalidate that de has 2 mechanics. By giving mirage cloak a cosmetic only approach you're actually crippling mirage, like here take this worse dodge but hey it looks good.Before you say it, ambushs apart from axe and sword which are indeed good, are just fillers. Plus axe 2 was drawn in a way that you need to use it with mc. By making mc cosmetic only you'd have to give an evade to axe 2. As for EM, it doesn't need a revert, it needs a redesign, there were several good ideas flying around, like 20% cdr on deception, cleanse a condi and a soft cc.I know some people want to tie dodge while stunned to it. It's a bad idea, dodge while stunned needs simply to go. Since when are major traits class mechanics? Just because it is an on dodge effect that doesn't necessarily make it a class mechanic. By that logic, evasive arcana on ele's arcane spec is a class mecahnic. Isn't mirage cloak a dodge effect too? It's 2 dodge effects (attack while dodging, longer duration) packaged into one. The reason why this is generally considered to be a class mechanic is because it is a core part of the spec that every mirage gets regardless of their trait choices. A DE has to give up the other master major trait choices to get stealth dodge. Edit: Mirage is not the only elite spec that gets 2 class mechanics. Technically weaver does too. However, as the pleb class that it is, ele gets drawbacks attached to its mechanics. Weavers have reduced cds on their attunements, but the drawback is that all attunements go on cd while swapping instead of only the last attunement you used. Weavers also get access to dual skills, but the drawback is that you lose access to your #3 skills unless single attuning, and you get delayed access to the #4 and #5 skills of the attunement you just swapped to. 1 Second evade was given to mirage specifically as a direct result of how garbage and functionally unplayable the entire specialization was during the demo weekend before path of fire was released. Because you lose so much ability to physically get out of danger with mirage cloak because of the loss of mobility the extra evade frames are there to help give a bit of buffer should you need to about face and run out of fire, literally in some circumstances. Because at 0.75s any time you need to about face, or change any direction and move yourself out of danger you've effectively lost evade frames overall compared to a standard dodge roll no matter how fast you move yourself out of danger, mathematically.I felt this right away going from core mesmer to mirage. Suppose a scourge or ranger puts a giant AOE circle around you. Without the standard dodge roll that physically moves you out of harm's way during the evade, or the extra evade time and speed, you'd practically have to burn a mobility in addition to a dodge.

Wat? I would add that the reflect on dodge trait needs more c/d as well. But yes, I know, you really, really hate all mesmers because they're the only ones you can't "steamroll": Nice, taking a message out of context i wrote. Mesmers basically butchered my ranked score from plat 2 to almost gold 2. I climbed my way up to plat before the mesmer invasion of PvP ...right when i started seeing 2 mesmers in my enemy teams, i started streak losing towards gold 2. Now i am literally easily killing people in my ranked games because the people i am playing with right now are allot worse then what i was facing in plat 2, except for mesmers, wich keep me contained in gold 2 because they are broken. You basically stated that mesmers needed both nerfs in offense and defence. Yet after you proclaim the nerfs to offense, you automatically state because 'the offensive is nerfed' The defenses shouldnt be touched. I didn't take anything out of context. Quite the opposite considering I linked to the full post. Maybe third time's the charm: Kindly revisit my last post (which you quoted) and read the bold, italicized part as many times as it takes to see that I agreed with a major nerf to defense.You know just aswell as me people are not going to read that entire post. I clarified it for those who are reading this thread. Not the other.This is the only thing you wanted changed about defense: "dodging while CC'd should go. It's not unreasonable for mirages to be forced to spend a stun break here like others." And that doesnt even scratch the surface of how many defensives a mesmer has. It is not enough.I'm not sure it makes much difference, but the full post was linked regardless.I added that the reflect on dodge trait should be nerfed too. Otherwise, defenses are fine for the most part, especially if condi mirage becomes a truly DOT trickster spec as I suggested.

I can imagine why those were problematic but my idea is more modest. Effects would only be applied to the player who killed the clone, so not AOE. And only a couple stacks of something. In exchange for clones "firing blanks" as their auto attacks. The idea is to make clone play--for both the mesmer and its opponents--more deliberate. Also to cut back on condi spam. Anyhow it was just an admittedly rough idea. Thanks for the feedback. The problem is that this would be very easily abused with the level of clones that can be generated if you really want to go down that route. Scepter 2, staff 3, deceptive evasion, mirror images and you can use chrono to get resets on all that.Yes it would be a sea change to clone play for sure. I'm thinking there'd be less need for clone generation since people would try to avoid killing them once they wised up. Since clones would no longer apply damage on their own (unless killed), they'd just exist to help the real mesmer hide between bursts. But as is now, three clones on the field is one's queue to watch for the shatter (or axe 3). This point is well taken. However clones sent to shatter wouldn't proc the clone death mechanic. Once the mesmer commands a shatter, all clones become fair game to be killed without penalty. Indeed the proper counter at this point would be to kill or evade the inbound clones. Alternatively, one could choose to kill clones if running enough counter-condi. It would be no more condi than the clones apply now via auto attacks. But the goal is to dial back overall condi output while encouraging more methodical counterplay over the course of longer engagements.

Wat? I would add that the reflect on dodge trait needs more c/d as well. But yes, I know, you really, really hate all mesmers because they're the only ones you can't "steamroll": Nice, taking a message out of context i wrote. Mesmers basically butchered my ranked score from plat 2 to almost gold 2. I climbed my way up to plat before the mesmer invasion of PvP ...right when i started seeing 2 mesmers in my enemy teams, i started streak losing towards gold 2. Now i am literally easily killing people in my ranked games because the people i am playing with right now are allot worse then what i was facing in plat 2, except for mesmers, wich keep me contained in gold 2 because they are broken. You basically stated that mesmers needed both nerfs in offense and defence. Yet after you proclaim the nerfs to offense, you automatically state because 'the offensive is nerfed' The defenses shouldnt be touched.I didn't take anything out of context. Quite the opposite considering I linked to the full post. Maybe third time's the charm: Kindly revisit my last post (which you quoted) and read the bold, italicized part as many times as it takes to see that I agreed with a major nerf to defense.

Wat? I would add that the reflect on dodge trait needs more c/d as well. But yes, I know, you really, really hate all mesmers because they're the only ones you can't "steamroll":

I can imagine why those were problematic but my idea is more modest. Effects would only be applied to the player who killed the clone, so not AOE. And only a couple stacks of something. In exchange for clones "firing blanks" as their auto attacks. The idea is to make clone play--for both the mesmer and its opponents--more deliberate. Also to cut back on condi spam. Anyhow it was just an admittedly rough idea. Thanks for the feedback.

Having read through every comment, we're all over the place with solutions to the "condi mirage problem". If we were to take them as a whole, the spec would literally be deleted (some make no secret that is what they actually want). On the one hand you have those who say the only problem is output: On the other, you have the frequent complaints that mirage is an untouchable, unkillable, ez-mode, brain dead, god-spec, rife with too much evade, invuln, stealth, detarget, mobility, etc. (See any mesmer complaint thread as well as many posts here.) I think targeted changes should be applied to both offense and defense: Offense: Minimize direct damage on axe, torch, scepter, and staff so condi builds really only output condi.Shave condi application so condi damage is ramped rather than burst. Possibly add an ICD on Ambush attacks, but in exchange leave Mirage Cloak alone, except as stated below. Ideally, cut back the excessive cleanse and resistance in the game to compensate, which might even enable additional viable condi specs.Maybe this is out there and has issues, but: Rework clones so they don't pile conditions via auto-attacks, but instead apply a couple stacks to opponents who kill them (to punish them for falling for the fake and encourage developing the most important skill for fighting mesmers: identifying the real mesmer--which isn't as difficult as people think.) Outside of shatters and ambushes, clones do almost no damage and truly exist to facilitate the mesmer's deceptive play style. So no more complaining about clone spam.Defense: With the reductions to offense, defensive abilities are more justified to enable that ramped condi application and allow "mirages to excel in longer combat engagements" per Anet's goal. Still, many complain about, and many mirage mains agree, that dodging while CC'd should go. It's not unreasonable for mirages to be forced to spend a stun break here like others. Generally, I think condi mirage should retain most of its defensive trickery in keeping with its theme. It should duel by craftily outplaying opponents, wearing them down with DOT (particularly the self-inflicted kind from torment and confusion for thematic reasons), and fill less of a burst DPS role. Kind of like a tankier but less damaging thief that hides among what opponents see rather than what they don't. Would that satisfy (most) everyone?