How Can We Fix Elixirs?

[SummonMinion.7306]

After playtesting Harbinger and reading the feedback threads, it seems that I and the large majority of the community can agree that the elixirs and boon support aspect of the class were overall lackluster in every gamemode. For the most part, everyone seems to be in three general groups as to how to improve these elixirs: 1) Have the elixirs be more supportive [i.e. better boons, longer durations on the boons, pulsing boons, AoE baseline, etc.], 2) have the elixirs better interact with blight (blight removal & stacking), or 3) have offensive effects attached to the elixirs.

 

Personally, I'm in the "attaching offensive effects" camp for improving elixirs. For example:

Elite Skill- Smash an elixir in an area. Affected enemies are completely stripped of their boons. Stripped boons are divided equally among allies within the same area.

Healing Skill- Smash an elixir in an area. Affected enemies are slowly drained of their health and continually send out pulses that heal allies. If affected enemies receive healing during the effect's duration, a portion of that healing is stolen to increase the intensity of the healing pulses. 

 

I feel that having the elixirs support your allies by stealing strength from your enemies better fits necromancer's theme along with making the class's utilities more mechanically interesting and impactful than "chug potion, lose health, gain boons". 

 

Seeing how the entire community is largely in unison that the Elixirs/Boon Support aspect of this class needs improvement, I wanted to open this discussion thread for how other necro's would like to improve this aspect of the class.

[gavyne.6847]

Speaking from WvW perspective, I play in an organized WvW squad.  In order to slot a support Harbringer, it'll have to outdo Firebrands, Support Scrappers, and Tempests.  Elixirs currently do not provide enough stab to take over a Firebrand's stab duty, not even close.  Harbringer does not cleanse, nor does it heal, so it can't take over Support Scrapper & Tempest's jobs.  Heralds, a DPS class, can provide more reliable boons than a Harbringer can with elixirs.  That says something.

 

I'm not quite sure how the current iteration of elixirs got passed through QA or even the whiteboard.  I'm pretty disappointed tbh.  Now to give feedback on what could be done to elixirs to make them worthwhile.

 

1. When you take the trait to share elixir boons, make them share its effects, such as the stunbreak and condi cleanse, those effects should be shared.  This will make them more useful in organized WvW squads.  Group utilities are big.

 

2. Boon duration on elixirs need to increase.

 

3. Make elixirs have 2-3 charges, like firebrand's mantras.

 

4. Give more shareable effects, such as superspeed, or a smoke field.  Scrappers right now have a monopoly on smoke and superspeed utils, which makes them extremely hard to replace in organized WvW squads.  Even Tempests have a hard time getting slotted in because of this.  It is time to give another class a chance.

 

5. Let the heal elixir heal allies, and cure blight.

 

There is promise, when I first learned about shareable elixirs I was a bit excited.  But after seeing them and trying them, I just smh and wonder how in the world this even came to be.  Remember, in order for support Harbringer to be a thing in WvW, it needs to be able to replace Firebrand's stab, Support Scrapper's cleanse/heal/boon/smoke/superspeed, and Tempest's cleanse/heals/boons.  That's a tall order, you look at what's currently being played, you do have to wonder if elixirs will ever get there.

[Za Shaloc.3908]

15 minutes ago, gavyne.6847 said:

Speaking from WvW perspective, I play in an organized WvW squad.  In order to slot a support Harbringer, it'll have to outdo Firebrands, Support Scrappers, and Tempests.  Elixirs currently do not provide enough stab to take over a Firebrand's stab duty, not even close.  Harbringer does not cleanse, nor does it heal, so it can't take over Support Scrapper & Tempest's jobs.  Heralds, a DPS class, can provide more reliable boons than a Harbringer can with elixirs.  That says something.

 

I'm not quite sure how the current iteration of elixirs got passed through QA or even the whiteboard.  I'm pretty disappointed tbh.  Now to give feedback on what could be done to elixirs to make them worthwhile.

 

1. When you take the trait to share elixir boons, make them share its effects, such as the stunbreak and condi cleanse, those effects should be shared.  This will make them more useful in organized WvW squads.  Group utilities are big.

 

2. Boon duration on elixirs need to increase.

 

3. Make elixirs have 2-3 charges, like firebrand's mantras.

 

4. Give more shareable effects, such as superspeed, or a smoke field.  Scrappers right now have a monopoly on smoke and superspeed utils, which makes them extremely hard to replace in organized WvW squads.  Even Tempests have a hard time getting slotted in because of this.  It is time to give another class a chance.

 

5. Let the heal elixir heal allies, and cure blight.

 

There is promise, when I first learned about shareable elixirs I was a bit excited.  But after seeing them and trying them, I just smh and wonder how in the world this even came to be.  Remember, in order for support Harbringer to be a thing in WvW, it needs to be able to replace Firebrand's stab, Support Scrapper's cleanse/heal/boon/smoke/superspeed, and Tempest's cleanse/heals/boons.  That's a tall order, you look at what's currently being played, you do have to wonder if elixirs will ever get there.

 

The Harbinger is not designed around WvW zergplay, nor should it be. To do so would just be to distort its role and purpose so dramatically to the point where it would no longer be the same e-spec. And even then, it would never be enough to compete with support FB and Scrapper. Necro already has incredible presence in largescale WvW, let Harbinger occupy a different role.  I agree that the support lineup needs to be diversified for the gamemode, but Harbinger is *not* the one for that.

 

In regards to the OP's post, I am also in the camp of wanting them to negatively affect enemies. Would prefer for the self boons and a negative affect on allies to be baseline, and for the elixir trait be unified and simply be boon share and CD reduction.

[gavyne.6847]

12 minutes ago, Za Shaloc.3908 said:

 

The Harbinger is not designed around WvW zergplay, nor should it be. To do so would just be to distort its role and purpose so dramatically to the point where it would no longer be the same e-spec. And even then, it would never be enough to compete with support FB and Scrapper. Necro already has incredible presence in largescale WvW, let Harbinger occupy a different role.  I agree that the support lineup needs to be diversified for the gamemode, but Harbinger is *not* the one for that.

 

In regards to the OP's post, I am also in the camp of wanting them to negatively affect enemies. Would prefer for the self boons and a negative affect on allies to be baseline, and for the elixir trait be unified and simply be boon share and CD reduction.

 

Necro has an incredible presence in all game modes.  But the one thing we haven't had is a real viable necro support spec that will work in WvW.  I see no reason why elixirs can't be improved to take on that role, if a player chooses to play it that way.  Support necro is a thing in PvE but it just doesn't work in WvW. 

 

And in return another class should be able to take scourge's spot in WvW via one of the new elites that we haven't seen.  We've been playing the same stale meta, the same classes, same specs, for over 2 years.  My guildies who play firebrands don't want to play fb's anymore.  My scrapper friends will quit if they're forced to endure another expansion of support scrapper.  Harbringer elixirs have the base design to function like firebrand's mantras.  I honestly see no reason to not make it viable and good.

[Wintermute.5408]

By turning them into throwable bombs, with offensive effects.

[InfiniteRetro.9865]

Make each elixer change your 1 to 5 skills. Thats it. it would make it so much more fun and each set of 5 depending on the elixer then feeds into the type of gameplay you're leaning into. When you pop the Elite you change into some ghostly monstrosity due to all the boons, much like how we can change into the Lich Form from base Necro.

 

The Harbinger might be 'okish' on math...but its BORING to play and completely feels alien to how GW2 handle its professions.

[wickedkae.4980]

They need to be deleted and the devs need to go back to the drawing board.  They are such a bad idea.  I am still trying to figure out what the design philosophy here was.  

[lakka.8642]

I think heal elixir, might elixir, and quickness elixir are fine. I would suggest to change the rest to stability and aegis elixirs. Also make them share with 10 people instead of 5 people.

[mazut.4296]

Every Elixir should leave a combo field (240-300 radius) for 3 to 5 seconds with small dps pulse per second. 

Elixir of Promise - Water field. For more heals and regen

 Elixir of Risk - Fire field. Additional burn and might.

Elixir of Anguish - Lightning field. Swiftness and vulnerability. 

Elixir of Bliss - Dark field. Blinds and life stealing

Elixir of Ignorance - Light field. Condi cleanse.
Elixir of Ambition - Ethereal field. for even more boons

The fields might be attached to your character, not static ground targeted.

Edited August 21, 2021 by mazut.4296

[Dadnir.5038]

Elixirs in themself aren't all bad, Risk, Anquish and Ambition are more than strong enough as they are.

 

The issue lie in the more "defensive" elixirs because they sacrifice survivability for survivability which is not the brightest idea. I think Promise, Bliss and Ignorance should, instead of giving Blight, consume it for extra effects. For example:

1. Elixir of Promise: Gain health and vigor. If you have blight on yourself consume up to 5 stacks and gain 2% LF per stack consumed. (Blight consumption happen after the initial effects)
2. Elixir of Bliss: Gain resolution. If you have blight on yourself consume up to 5 stacks and cleanse 1 condition per stack consumed. (Blight consumption happen after the initial effects)
3. Elixir of Ignorance: Break stun and gain resistance. If you have 5 stack of blight or more on yourself consume 5 stacks to gain 5s dark aura. (Blight consumption happen after the initial effects)

[Asum.4960]

That really depends on the design goal - where do they want them viable, and how fun/passive do they want them to be. 

 

By far the least amount of work would be to simply adjust the boon gains to make them, and with it Harbinger as a whole, worth as PvE boonsupport - and while still not competitive with alternatives such as Quickbrand, at least putting it into the same realm - while also increasing their use case/justification in PvP/WvW.

 

Elixir of Promise, maybe just more base heal and Regeneration, but I feel like the only use it will ever see is extra Blight/LF gain in DPS rotations for the Adept modifiers anyway.

Elixir of Ignorance needs (low and short) Stability and Aegis instead of Resistance.

Elixir of Bliss Protection in addition to Resolution. 

Risk and Anguish I'd merge into Elixir of Anguish: Quickness, Fury(, Might).

Which would then leave one Elixir free to be some sort of Utility/Blight management tool some have been asking for, with one thought being to take a page from Stone Resonance, making it a (maybe also pulsing) Blight removal, converting some of the negative health into barrier with each pulse.

Alternatively, this could be the place to give Harbinger at least some sort of scaling active defense on par of other specs beyond the 0.5 second evade in Shroud in exchange for it's squishyness, by gaining an Elixir S, or maybe even Infuse Light like skill on a higher Cooldown (and sure, why not, slap the Swiftness on there). This could work as Blight management/bound/limited tool as well, by way of making it "Consume Blight, gain 1 second of Invulnerability for each 5 stacks consumed (max. 3 seconds)". Make it Elixir of Reprieve.

The Elite, Elixir of Ambition, is tricky too though. I already see it's functionality as fairly gimmicky and niche for PvE especially, and once nerfed down in PvP and WvW, I'm not sure if there will still be much point to it. Could be left as is, but I don't see it as particularly healthy skill.

One option is for it to take on the latter Invuln Reprieve suggestion, fitting of the higher CD that would need, while alternatively making the 4th Utility Elixir all about gaining Blight and offensive group support, this could be Harbinger's Frost Spirit/more active Assassin's Presence group damage increase, and ticket of competing as still less defensive (no Aegis spam, less stab, no reflect, no incoming heal modifiers, no mass cleanse etc.) but more offensive boon support, making it something like Elixir of Embrace: Gain 15-25 Blight Stacks and a 3-5% Damage modifier for 6 seconds (shared by Twisted Medicine). 

 

With these changes, I'd actually consider slotting some of them in all game modes (and even being excited for creative use cases).

Not only would these changes make me be welcoming/playing a Boonbringer, while still not quite on par with QB utility, being at least justifiable, it would also open up some really interesting and skilled combos in competitive through smart Elixir use (Using Embrace to become pure squish to burst, followed up by Reprieve for escape/focus counter, etc.), rather than being just bland all boon gain, all while still having plenty of counter play (risk of being locked down and bursted in Embrace etc.).

Edited August 21, 2021 by Asum.4960

[mazut.4296]

If blight is consumed for more effects, this should be done through F-skills. All tools giving blight seems the right way to go. Ofc there should be more payoffs, not just the damage increase, imo.

Edited August 21, 2021 by mazut.4296

[KrHome.1920]

What do you all expect from a utility skill?

 

The elixiers are stronger than any reaper shout and each of them is more usefull than half of the core utility skills.

 

Did you expect stronger aoe damage skills than wells for PvE and stronger sustain skills than spectral walk for PvP? Or in other words: power creep?

 

Elixiers offer a new kind of utility for necro: strong boons. If you don't need strong boons (I welcome them, esp. the additional fury and swiftness source the elixiers provide), then use other utility skills.

 

Edited August 21, 2021 by KrHome.1920