Engineer's flawed design. And how to fix it.

[Bomboed.5697]

Engineer as a class has a very flawed design:
We don't have a second weapon, but we have Kits. But to have a kit we need to sacrifice an utility slot. But at the same time Kits can not be balanced as real weapons, because we can potentially fill all slots with kits and have tons of weapons that can be swapped without CD. Because of that Kits are balanced in the way that they are not real weapons and most abilities of them are useless at worst or very niche at best. In exchange of that we have toolbelt abilities. But they either associated with pretty bad utilities, or vice versa, good utility skills associated with almost useless toolbelt skills. Or both of them are bad, like most of turrets and gadgets.

Why it is so? Because Engi utility skills with their toolbelt skills combined should have similar power level as other classes utilities alone, but at the same time they should compete with Kits, which are weaker versions of weapons, because they could not be balanced as real weapons, because Engineers have freedom to pick as many of them as they want and switch between them without CD. And because of that we don't have a second weapon.

The circle of misery is complete.

There is no way ANET could balance this mess.

So what I want to propose?

1. Engineer does not need toolbelt skills. It does not need toolbelt at all!
2. Replace F1-F4 buttons of toolbelt with F1-F2 slots for Engineering kits. Make Kits our profession core mechanic. Engi will have 3 weapons, but 2 of which are Engineer specific ones. This will be Engineer uniqueness.
3. Give Kits some CD between switches, like Ele attunements. Maybe shorter. Holosmith Photon Forge should disable kits for longer, in that case.
4. Rebalance Engineering Kits in a way so they could be used as real weapons, not as a bunch of niche abilities.
   For example, Mortar kit and Bomb Kit could be combined into Rocket Launcher kit, that will act like a proper 1200 range power-based weapon with targeting on enemies, not on ground. This will be a great ranged weapon that could be used with Scrapper Hammer or Holosmith sword.
   Took kit could be reworked into proper power-based melee weapon, which Engineer lacks outside of Elite spec weapons.
   Flamethrower could be mixed "melee" weapon with both power and condi, while Grenades and Elixir gun should be pure condition-based.
   Med kit could be reworked into pure support weapon, while it's healing skill could be replaced with a new one with new skill type.
5. Toolbelt skills associated with Kits should be integrated into Kits themselves, or act like Tempest's overloads and placed on F1 and F2 buttons.
6. F3 button should be reserved for Elite Spec mechanics.
7. New skill type should be created to replace Kits in utility skills. "Preparation" type is a good candidate (mechanical traps, mines, other concealed devices etc)
8. All other toolbelts skills should be integrated into their associated utility skills or utility skills themselves should be made more powerful and impactful to be on par with utilities of other classes.
   For example, Rocket Boots could be reworked to become a real mobility tool like Rocket Jump or Mesmer's Blink, but with more emphasis on Burning.
   All Elixirs could be make "drink and toss" at the same time, with more powerful effect on Egni and less powerful on allies.
9. "Tools" trait line should be reworked to be focused more on Kits instead of toolbelt. If Kits have CD between switches, then Tools trait line should give an option to reduce it. That will save old playstyle of constant switching between kits as an option.
10. Turrets should get the same treatment as gyros: they should be renamed and reworked into new skill type - Device.
    Devices should work similar to classic wells, that are placed onto the ground. They should be temporary zone effects, not minions with AI.
    Devices should have powerful effect (like their old Overcharge) on deployment, and less powerful persistent effect during their temporary lifespan.
    Temporal nature of Devices should help to make them more dynamic to use and be balanced like proper abilities with adequate CDs, not like minions with theoretically infinite lifespan that no one actually use.
11. Rifle could be rebalanced to become a weapon with more defined range. Now it is a weird mix of close range and long range. Maybe it should be turned into a shotgun, while power-based long range option will be filled with Rocket Launcher kit, mentioned above.
12. Pistols should be buffed to be at least comparable to other classes condi options. For example, Necro Harbinger pistol outperform Engi pistols in any imaginable way.

Pistol #1 should have Explosion tag for better synergy with traits.
Pistol #2 should do something else outside of poisoning.
Pistol #3 should be reworked into ability that applies Burning and Blindness, instead of Confusion and Blindness, for better synergy with traits.
Off-hand pistol should be reworked to be more utility-based weapon and be usable with both condi-based main hand pistol and power-based main hand Holosmith sword.
Off-hand pistol #4 should be replaced with removed from main-hand pistol Static Shot, but with different conditions instead of Blindness and Confusion. Maybe Slow and Weakness.
Off-hand pistol #5 should be either a better CC tool, or do something on top of its current effect. Now it is a very weak ability with long CD.

I understand that it is a lot of work. And a lot of balancing. And in some cases it will require new animations and effects.
I also understand that not all people will like these changes. Some people love Engineer and toolbelt skills in its current state.
But this class has a lot of problems. This is the least popular class and there is a reason for that: flawed design. Engineer has its own appeal, it has a great theme and class fantasy, but its own mechanics contradict to this theme. Engineer should be more versatile class with tons of customization, it should have a lot of tools for different situations because Engineer supposed to be GW2 "jack of all trades" class. But in reality Engineer mechanics restrict customization. We have skills and mechanics that compete with each other, while they should not. We are forced to have useless buttons because they are paired with something we actually need. We have absolutely broken and unusable skills like turrets. And half of other utility skills are never used.

I believe that my proposed changes will help to fix that. Yes, at first it definitely will be a balancing nightmare. But in result we will have a more manageable class. It will be more easy to balance in future. It will be more easily understandable. It will have more comfortable gameplay with better flow, instead of stressful switching between kits only to use 1 or 2 abilities from them. It will have more build variety, because there will be no need to sacrifice other abilities to have a parody of second weapon.

Edited September 12, 2021 by Bomboed.5697

[De Bourgogne.9642]

So you want engineer to not be engineer?

 

Not having weapons swap is design of engineer not flaw. 

 

Toolkits are actually very good what makes you not take them as much is the fact you need a utility slot to take them, so playing more then mortar kit + another utility tool kit isn't realistic. Speaking for PvP bombkit is terrible and flamethrower isnt great either unless you play flamethrower meme builds. Nades, elixir gun, Mortar kit, toolkit are all great, and medkit is kinda okay its just engineer isnt really a good support in PvP. 

 

 

[Bomboed.5697]

3 minutes ago, McPero.3287 said:

So you want engineer to not be engineer?

 

Not having weapons swap is design of engineer not flaw. 

 

Toolkits are actually very good what makes you not take them as much is the fact you need a utility slot to take them, so playing more then mortar kit + another utility tool kit isn't realistic. Speaking for PvP bombkit is terrible and flamethrower isnt great either unless you play flamethrower meme builds. Nades, elixir gun, Mortar kit, toolkit are all great, and medkit is kinda okay its just engineer isnt really a good support in PvP. 

 

 

You obviously haven't read the post.

[De Bourgogne.9642]

3 minutes ago, Bomboed.5697 said:

You obviously haven't read the post.

Why would I continue reading when you open with saying most skills on toolkits are bad? And that if they were good you would run full toolkits. You obviously wouldn't because you would have one stunbreak on elixir gun toolbelt skill.

Edited September 12, 2021 by McPero.3287

[Bomboed.5697]

3 minutes ago, McPero.3287 said:

Why would I continue reading when you open with saying most skills on toolkits are bad? And that if they were good you would run full toolkits. You obviously wouldn't because you would have one stunbreak on elixir gun toolbelt skill.

Because reading is essential skill that provides you with full context and helps your comment to make sense.

[De Bourgogne.9642]

9 minutes ago, Bomboed.5697 said:

Because reading is essential skill that provides you with full context and helps your comment to make sense.

Well your initial statements are just wrong context doesn't matter. And you build your proposal based on wrong assumptions.

Edited September 12, 2021 by McPero.3287

[Bomboed.5697]

3 minutes ago, McPero.3287 said:

Well your initial statements are just wrong context doesn't matter.

Which statements exactly?

[De Bourgogne.9642]

Just now, Bomboed.5697 said:

Which statements exactly?

That most toolkit skills are bad and that if they were good you would run full toolkits. 

[Bomboed.5697]

Just now, McPero.3287 said:

That most toolkit skills are bad

Yep. And you confirm that:

26 minutes ago, McPero.3287 said:

Speaking for PvP bombkit is terrible and flamethrower isnt great either unless you play flamethrower meme builds.

Then you confirm my point that there is little to no variaty:

27 minutes ago, McPero.3287 said:

playing more then mortar kit + another utility tool kit isn't realistic.

And you also confirm that some kits are used only because certain buttons:

22 minutes ago, McPero.3287 said:

because you would have one stunbreak on elixir gun toolbelt skill

 

And...

6 minutes ago, McPero.3287 said:

that if they were good you would run full toolkits

this was not my statement. All I said is that there is a possibility to take tons of kits and that possibility limits ANET ability to make kits work like real weapons with all skills being useful and reliable. If build with tons of kits will not be optimal it does not mean it will not be kittenous or broken.

Also, they are not toolkits. They are engineering kits. Tool Kit is only one of them.

[De Bourgogne.9642]

1 minute ago, Bomboed.5697 said:

Yep. And you confirm that:

Then you confirm my point that there is little to no variaty:

And you also confirm that some kits are used only because certain buttons:

 

And...

this was not my statement. All I said is that there is a possibility to take tons of kits and that possibility limits ANET ability to make kits work like real weapons with all skills being useful and reliable. If build with tons of kits will not be optimal it does not mean it will not be kittenous or broken.

Also, they are not toolkits. They are engineering kits. Tool Kit is only one of them.

???

You don't use elixir gun just for stunbreak LOL. Autoattack with weakness on it lmao, poison for downstates on 3, highest damage aoe skill in the game that is also unblockable and doesnt have a red circle indicator on 4, light field with heal and cleanse on 5.

 

It literally doesn't confirm because most toolkits are good, saying 2 of them are bad doesn't confirm you saying they are all bad. 

[Bomboed.5697]

6 minutes ago, McPero.3287 said:

doesn't confirm you saying they are all bad.

Oh, at least now I know where you stopped reading.
 

This is were you stopped

1 hour ago, Bomboed.5697 said:

most abilities of them are useless

And this is what comes next:

1 hour ago, Bomboed.5697 said:

or very niche at best.

 

Also...

10 minutes ago, McPero.3287 said:

saying 2 of them are bad

It is 2 out of 5 kits in utility slots. Almost half. If this is not a sign of a balance problem then I don't even know what is.

[Bomboed.5697]

45 minutes ago, McPero.3287 said:

That most toolkit skills are bad

Also the whole point of my post is not about Kits being bad. But about kits competing with other abilities for slots, which result in a lot of Engineer abilities are almost never used.
My post is about this problem. But you don't know that, because "why would I read?"

[De Bourgogne.9642]

If you look other classes you will be quick to realise most classes have a lot of bad utilities but that is fine as long as you have enough good ones which Engineer for sure has. Lets compare toolkits to conjures where only earth shield is good and everything else is abosolutely terrible on 60s cd and elite conjure is good but very long cd. Game isn't just balanced around PvP certain utilities are just made for other game modes. Yeah it would be great if every utility in the game was viable and you would have insane variety but I don't think you understand how hard that is and how much balancing would that require. This isn't an engineer issue every class has this issue. Certain utilities is actually good they are bad thank god for example turrets on engineer are bad and the one that isn't (crate) has a lot of complaints. 

Well it is not really 2 out of 5 utility since flamethrower is kinda okay it is just bombkit that is bad but that one is very good in WvW. And when you consider medkit and elite one you come to 1 out of 7 is bad so yeah nice almost half. Generally saying toolkits are useless or very niche is just wrong. Most toolkits are better then core engineer weapons excluding shield which is a pretty insane offhand.

Giving engineer 2 toolkits on F1 and F2 would actually make engineer just very unbalanced unless you would put like very long cds on F1 and F2. Imagine nade holo with buffed nades and elixir gun or toolkit lmao. Not only will you stay a beast spec in teamfights it greatly buffs your ability to sidenode. 

 

 

Edited September 13, 2021 by McPero.3287

[HnRkLnXqZ.1870]

Same as with Noah, if you do not want to play Engineer, play another class. If our mechanics appear too difficult, you are not forced to stick to them. I have no problem with suggestions, but half of your stuff would force the small rest of us to finally abandon Engineer for good.

Edited September 13, 2021 by HnRkLnXqZ.1870

[Amadeus.5687]

I feel the far better and more simple solution is to look at what makes our kit an issue to use to begin with:

That they take up utility slot and many of them have useless or very bad Tool Belt skills.

In PvE it have for a loong time been a stable build to bring all the kits for a condition dmg build and most meta power builds did the same until Holosmith arrived.
Balanceing Kits for PvE is easy; Just make them deal enough dmg to being worth rotating into. 

The real issue with kits is in PvP and WvW, where they take up important utility slots, which you wanna use for:
-Condition removal
- Stunbreaks

- Mobility
- Defence

- CC.

There is also an issue in these modes with most of the kits having dmg issues, but that's just a number game again.

Looking at the main weapon kit that have seen play for ages:
Elixir gun.

It works because it brings:

A stunbreak for it's toolbelt skill

Built in condition removal on the weapons skills

Comes with a blast finisher (Important for Engineer's)

Good interaction with elixir trait line.

So how do we fix weapon kits easy? By making sure they have interaction with a trait line and replace toolbelt skills with new skills that give either.
 

-Condition removal
- Stunbreaks

- Mobility
- Defence

- CC.

Or by adding said things to the weapon skills

 

 

 

[Dracomet.3648]

If you play WvW, Elixir gun is like the most essential and best kit to bring as described above, it’s a stun break, heal, cleanse, blast and CC all in one utility slot. It’s literally impossible for any one button utility compete with this, unless Anet invents a utility that does all five with one button.

 

TBH, if we seriously wanted to limit kits use while not competing with other utilities, I would actually pack them all and move them into the Elite slot. I would then just remove Supply Drop and Elixir X, or change/nerf them considerably and push them into regular utilities.

 

I think it would be easier to balance kits with Elites because elites are meant to be strong, therefore, I don’t think anyone would complain if an elite could stun break, heal, cleanse, blast and CC as a single button vs Elixir gun, compared to if such a button exists on a utility slot.

[Amadeus.5687]

Just now, Dracomet.3648 said:

If you play WvW, Elixir gun is like the most essential and best kit to bring as described above, it’s a stun break, heal, cleanse, blast and CC all in one utility slot. It’s literally impossible for any one button utility compete with this, unless Anet invents a utility that does all five with one button.

 

TBH, if we seriously wanted to limit kits use while not competing with other utilities, I would actually pack them all and move them into the Elite slot. I would then just remove Supply Drop and Elixir X, or change/nerf them considerably and push them into regular utilities.

 

I think it would be easier to balance kits with Elites because elites are meant to be strong, therefore, I don’t think anyone would complain if an elite could stun break, heal, cleanse, blast and CC as a single button vs Elixir gun, compared to if such a button exists on a utility slot.

Weapons kits should never be compared to utility skills, thier toolbelt skills should.

Weapons kits should be compared to weapons, because that's what they are.
From core we are limited to only one weapon, no weapon swap.
Likewise we have only very limited options in our weapon choices:

A power weapon
A condition MH weapon

A condition OH weapon

A Defensive OH weapon.

Our weapon kits are very much supposed to compete with weapons, cause they are the replacements off the weapons we never had and the swap we won't get.

A weapon setup that can do what elixir gun can do is not OP in anyway and I feel elixir gun matches the power scale of Guardian staff or Ranger (Druid staff).

Elixir Gun is the perfect example on what our weapons kits should be:
It's our support weapon option.

[Dracomet.3648]

12 minutes ago, Amadeus.5687 said:

Weapons kits should never be compared to utility skills, thier toolbelt skills should.

Weapons kits should be compared to weapons, because that's what they are.

That’s literally the problem: They don’t and they can’t.

[GKC.3851]

17 hours ago, Bomboed.5697 said:

Replace F1-F4 buttons of toolbelt with F1-F2 slots for Engineering kits. Make Kits our profession core mechanic. Engi will have 3 weapons, but 2 of which are Engineer specific ones. This will be Engineer uniqueness.

Doesn't this sound like its very close to the revenant abilities? I'm not saying it's a bad suggestion because of it, it just makes me look twice at how the rev seems like a better version of an engineer.

[Amadeus.5687]

53 minutes ago, Dracomet.3648 said:

That’s literally the problem: They don’t and they can’t.

Of cause they can, what's your reasoning for they can't?
Sure right now some of them are weak, but Elixir Gun is a amazing weapon loadout and Grenade kit is also super solid beside the toolbelt skill

[Ghos.1326]

I'm personally in favor of giving the engineer the ability to use another set of sigils (eles as well) since we don't get access to a "second weapon". This second set of sigils would tie into kits when/if applicable (if not you can just use the flat increase sigils).

[Amadeus.5687]

18 minutes ago, Ghos.1326 said:

I'm personally in favor of giving the engineer the ability to use another set of sigils (eles as well) since we don't get access to a "second weapon". This second set of sigils would tie into kits when/if applicable (if not you can just use the flat increase sigils).

 

That's not a bad idea, I could also get behind that.

[Bomboed.5697]

3 hours ago, Amadeus.5687 said:

Weapons kits should never be compared to utility skills, thier toolbelt skills should.

Weapons kits should be compared to weapons, because that's what they are.
From core we are limited to only one weapon, no weapon swap.
Likewise we have only very limited options in our weapon choices:

A power weapon
A condition MH weapon

A condition OH weapon

A Defensive OH weapon.

Our weapon kits are very much supposed to compete with weapons, cause they are the replacements off the weapons we never had and the swap we won't get.

A weapon setup that can do what elixir gun can do is not OP in anyway and I feel elixir gun matches the power scale of Guardian staff or Ranger (Druid staff).

Elixir Gun is the perfect example on what our weapons kits should be:
It's our support weapon option.

I totally agree that Kits should be compared to weapon. This is a reason why I suggest to separate them from utilities and give them their own slots on F buttons.
Because in current form they work as Engineer alternative to weapon swap, but at the same time they compete with other abilities for utility slot. It is impossible to balance without making something totally useless. How would you balance, for example, most of gadgets or turrets, to make them compete with, for example, Elixir gun, that gives tons of utility, or Nades, that gives the entire arsenal of weapon skills? It is like making Warrior to choose between having a banner or a greatsword.

Kits are essential for Engineer and some kits feels mandatory for most builds. And it means that sacrifice of utility ability is also a mandatory.
If mechanic is mandatory - it should be separated from other choices.
My suggestions are not about making Kits bad or good, they are about separating them from utilities, to create more freedom for ANET to properly balance them as a real alternative to weapons, and balance other utilities with no need to comparing them to kits, as well as give players more freedom to choose utility skills.

[Ghos.1326]

11 minutes ago, Bomboed.5697 said:

I totally agree that Kits should be compared to weapon. This is a reason why I suggest to separate them from utilities and give them their own slots on F buttons.
Because in current form they work as Engineer alternative to weapon swap, but at the same time they compete with other abilities for utility slot. It is impossible to balance without making something totally useless. How would you balance, for example, most of gadgets or turrets, to make them compete with, for example, Elixir gun, that gives tons of utility, or Nades, that gives the entire arsenal of weapon skills? It is like making Warrior to choose between having a banner or a greatsword.

Kits are essential for Engineer and some kits feels mandatory for most builds. And it means that sacrifice of utility ability is also a mandatory.
If mechanic is mandatory - it should be separated from other choices.
My suggestions are not about making Kits bad or good, they are about separating them from utilities, to create more freedom for ANET to properly balance them as a real alternative to weapons, and balance other utilities with no need to comparing them to kits, as well as give players more freedom to choose utility skills.

While I like the idea of making a kit selectable as the swap weapon choice, i also think we're all missing something crucial: kits are not the engineer's mechanic, the toolbelt is. Kits are just one of the engineer's special utilities, much so that they may be considered the "secondary" mechanic for the engineer. regardless, the toolbelt is the actual mechanic of the engineer.

[Amadeus.5687]

14 minutes ago, Bomboed.5697 said:

I totally agree that Kits should be compared to weapon. This is a reason why I suggest to separate them from utilities and give them their own slots on F buttons.
Because in current form they work as Engineer alternative to weapon swap, but at the same time they compete with other abilities for utility slot. It is impossible to balance without making something totally useless. How would you balance, for example, most of gadgets or turrets, to make them compete with, for example, Elixir gun, that gives tons of utility, or Nades, that gives the entire arsenal of weapon skills? It is like making Warrior to choose between having a banner or a greatsword.

Kits are essential for Engineer and some kits feels mandatory for most builds. And it means that sacrifice of utility ability is also a mandatory.
If mechanic is mandatory - it should be separated from other choices.
My suggestions are not about making Kits bad or good, they are about separating them from utilities, to create more freedom for ANET to properly balance them as a real alternative to weapons, and balance other utilities with no need to comparing them to kits, as well as give players more freedom to choose utility skills.

 

You balance the rest of our utility skills by being solid well designed utility skills with strong links to our traits and interact good with the weapon kits skills.
 

A solid point in Engineer balance were back in the old P/P HGH Grenade days (There were also the power version with rifle) where you used Grenade kit + potions to buff it up.

It's fun to use 4 kits, but it's not always optimal to use 4 kits because CD's and managing optimal use of your skills play in.
When that is said, people that's able to use that many kits and excel at it should be rewarded for doing it tbh.

Tool kits linking to Turrets is an example of Anet trying, but failing, cause Turret AI sucks and they have nerfed it. But the interaction of bunkering down, being able to heal the turrets ect, is decent thinking.
That I'd a rather link Tool Kit skills with gadgets and hence making it interact more with tool lines is another story. 

 

Edited September 13, 2021 by Amadeus.5687