can traps be bigger?

[Utomneian.9013]

i came back to the game recently and found out my trapper ranger was apparently nerfed? i don't even know to what extent, i'll have to read the wiki updates. i'm sure there was a good reason for this nerf, but can i ask for one concession? can the traps be 300 units instead of 240? and while this is more for the sake of me still liking my ranger, i extend this to the Dragonhunters and Thieves' preparations.

 

 i'm sure the Skills & Balance team have considered the size of traps to being 240 for a reason, but i'm wondering if there was enough community support to making them a little bigger, if that would be enough to convince them a trial run of bigger trap radius? but what do you all think? would bigger traps be too much for WvW? sPvP? PvE? should it be game-mode specific?

[Fueki.4753]

Traps already are too big in sPvP.

If they increased the size for PvE, a skill split between mode would become necessary.

 

Given the constantly low "balance" changes, there probably isn't even a balance team at Arenanet anymore.

It's maybe one person working on "balance" for at most two to three hours a day.

[Utomneian.9013]

5 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Traps already are too big in sPvP.

If they increased the size for PvE, a skill split between mode would become necessary.

 

Given the constantly low "balance" changes, there probably isn't even a balance team at Arenanet anymore.

It's maybe one person working on "balance" for at most two to three hours a day.

alrighty, i think i agree with that for sPvP, but what about WvW where there's more wide open spaces? i feel like it's much harder to lure people into traps in WvW :(

[Zyreva.1078]

22 minutes ago, Utomneian.9013 said:

alrighty, i think i agree with that for sPvP, but what about WvW where there's more wide open spaces? i feel like it's much harder to lure people into traps in WvW 😞

Just gotta play solo/in a small grp. Players love to chase when they've got more numbers, so luring them into traps is easy. You can also take advantage of terrain to force melee engamements where your traps are waiting. They are fine in WvW.

Edited September 26, 2021 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[Fueki.4753]

8 hours ago, Utomneian.9013 said:

alrighty, i think i agree with that for sPvP, but what about WvW where there's more wide open spaces? i feel like it's much harder to lure people into traps in WvW 😞

In WvW, bigger traps may be okay, but that also may come with a trade-offs. We know Arenanet is in love with them.

[anduriell.6280]

5 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

In WvW, bigger traps may be okay, but that also may come with a trade-offs. We know Arenanet is in love with them.

You don't play with ranger as it seems, ranger traps don't need any tradeoff but buffs.

Before you say something in line of "But i see trapper rangers around!"  that is the side effect of having trapper runes in game. Remove that and let's see how many keeps using those utilities.

 

On 9/25/2021 at 11:39 PM, Utomneian.9013 said:

i came back to the game recently and found out my trapper ranger was apparently nerfed? i don't even know to what extent, i'll have to read the wiki updates. i'm sure there was a good reason for this nerf, but can i ask for one concession? can the traps be 300 units instead of 240? and while this is more for the sake of me still liking my ranger, i extend this to the Dragonhunters and Thieves' preparations.

 

 i'm sure the Skills & Balance team have considered the size of traps to being 240 for a reason, but i'm wondering if there was enough community support to making them a little bigger, if that would be enough to convince them a trial run of bigger trap radius? but what do you all think? would bigger traps be too much for WvW? sPvP? PvE? should it be game-mode specific?

I don't think we need a bigger radius, just better traps they are the only trap utilty in game with no changes from launch. Increasing the radius will not make traps better, still the player will be able to get out in one dodge roll.  

 

thief got a new set of reworked traps i don't understand why is so rare the ranger utilities to get reworks to at least keep with the new expansions. The last change was to fix a very buggy sword autoattack many years ago. 

[Utomneian.9013]

12 hours ago, anduriell.6280 said:

You don't play with ranger as it seems, ranger traps don't need any tradeoff but buffs.

Before you say something in line of "But i see trapper rangers around!"  that is the side effect of having trapper runes in game. Remove that and let's see how many keeps using those utilities.

 

I don't think we need a bigger radius, just better traps they are the only trap utilty in game with no changes from launch. Increasing the radius will not make traps better, still the player will be able to get out in one dodge roll.  

 

thief got a new set of reworked traps i don't understand why is so rare the ranger utilities to get reworks to at least keep with the new expansions. The last change was to fix a very buggy sword autoattack many years ago. 

 

i'm just not sure what would be the best compromise then, and maybe i'm just rusty, but i'm not really feeling my trapper ranger much anymore :(

[RyuDragnier.9476]

19 minutes ago, Utomneian.9013 said:

 

i'm just not sure what would be the best compromise then, and maybe i'm just rusty, but i'm not really feeling my trapper ranger much anymore 😞

I sadly haven't felt it in years. Remember back when Ranger traps could be thrown far off and set in advance? Those were the good old days. When they took that from us, I hung up my traps for good. 😢

[Chips.7968]

On 9/27/2021 at 12:10 PM, anduriell.6280 said:

thief got a new set of reworked traps i don't understand why is so rare the ranger utilities to get reworks to at least keep with the new expansions. The last change was to fix a very buggy sword autoattack many years ago. 

No they didn't.

Thief traps got removed entirely. They got "preparations" instead - which are *not* traps (so trapper runes don't work). These preparations take 2.5s to "set" and then you have to manually trigger them by pressing a button again.

Never see anyone using them. Careful what you wish for... 

[anduriell.6280]

18 hours ago, Chips.7968 said:

No they didn't.

Thief traps got removed entirely. They got "preparations" instead - which are *not* traps (so trapper runes don't work). These preparations take 2.5s to "set" and then you have to manually trigger them by pressing a button again.

Never see anyone using them. Careful what you wish for... 

"preparations" or "commands" are still the same type of utility, you set up something on  the ground and then they trigger when the enemy step on them. Anet just changed the type to avoid to make it work with existing runes, the same as as they did for the shouts. 

 

I do agree the new traps are not very good neither were the originals after they begun to do damage, although shadow portal had some potential. Still they are better now than the original traps with all those weird shapes and all. 

Same case for ranger traps, they are only used because of teh runes. Once the runes are reworked most probably that utility won't be used anymore. 

[Lazze.9870]

The traps are very much carried by the runes at the moment. Or rather, running a full set of traps is only doable because of the trapper runes and because soulbeast gives you an alternative for a stun break on your F3.

That doesn't mean the traps aren't fine. They are for the most part. Frost trap needs to do more damage in PvP/WvW, that coefficient split is one of the worst I've seen in the game, if not THE worst with the exception of CC skills. Getting an elite trap could also round out the utility set nicely, even though Entangle works well enough with traps.

[Chips.7968]

3 hours ago, anduriell.6280 said:

"preparations" or "commands" are still the same type of utility, you set up something on  the ground and then they trigger when the enemy step on them. 

Except thief preparations don't automatically trigger when an enemy comes into contact. You have to *manually* trigger them. 

 

Do you play thief? The reason I ask is because all the associated surrounding impact that changing to preparations caused. For example, traps had *some* synergy with the thief traits. E.g. you could drop the needle trap on heal skill; using withdraw. But I can't remember what that trait was and therefore what it's been changed to; maybe it was the runes?

 I also can't remember if it gave a reduced recharge on traps anymore, I'm sure there was though. I note there's no reduction for preparations (though not sure there is for venom either so perhaps not that odd, haven't searched all the traits again) unlike deception/tricks/signets which can all build for reductions.

Likewise the pulsing nature is less useful than the old "bomb" version - max effect not necessarily going to happen; additionally, pulsing dmg means no stealth for the duration of pulses if people are in it. Those are both negatives comparatively.

Sure, the shape/size is better, but the manual triggering and placement time is not. Ranger traps can kite placing them while the chaser can be a mere 300 behind. With thief preparations, if they're close, they'll run right through it before it can even "arm", let alone before you can trigger it. Indeed, they can likely cover more than the entire diameter of the preparation before it's armed if chasing you.

 

The point here isn't a pissing match about whether thief preparations are better than the old traps. We can disagree on that point, I'm pointing out the above synergies that no longer exist and shortfalls of the new preparations in comparison and therefore reinforcing my belief that Rangers pointing to thief preparations as a decent rework - to be careful what you wish for.  Imagine not only no superspeed/stealth, but also several seconds delay to "arm" what you've set before having to re-push the button when someone goes into it to trigger. Trapper rangers seem to almost depend on kiting while you run into the traps. No such luck on preparations.

 

Edited September 29, 2021 by Chips.7968

[Lazze.9870]

29 minutes ago, Chips.7968 said:

to be careful what you wish for. 

His solution is often a full blown rework where they aren't needed.

The ranger traps are fine, other than Frost Trap's weak coefs in WvW/PvP. What is not fine, but related to condition builds, is the shortbow (and its trait), which you're likely using together with the traps. Poor, annyoing and uninspired design. There is a lot of potential there to spice up both trapper and regular condi builds by not even touching the traps.

Edited September 29, 2021 by Lazze.9870

[anduriell.6280]

2 hours ago, Lazze.9870 said:

His solution is often a full blown rework where they aren't needed.

Thank you for your kind comments full of useful and constructive thoughs....  

 

3 hours ago, Chips.7968 said:

The point here isn't a pissing match about whether thief preparations are better than the old traps. We can disagree on that point, I'm pointing out the above synergies that no longer exist and shortfalls of the new preparations in comparison and therefore reinforcing my belief that Rangers pointing to thief preparations as a decent rework - to be careful what you wish for.  Imagine not only no superspeed/stealth, but also several seconds delay to "arm" what you've set before having to re-push the button when someone goes into it to trigger. Trapper rangers seem to almost depend on kiting while you run into the traps. No such luck on preparations.

 

Yes, anet is known to overnerf anything they change, thief and ranger are very accostumed to that. It does not mean Thief didn't benefit from the change from traps to preparation. The utility they bring for  a team as CC are even a bit overtunned. In my opinion they just lack the synergies so the thief can build around them as an squad build. 

 

Anet can and most probably will mess up if the buff / rework traps yet that should not mean we should stop asking for something better. Current traps just work because of the unfun runes and Ancient_Seeds. Both of them need to be deleted from the game. Once those runes are fixed traps will have nothing to offer, too short duration and too small condition application. The radius i think is ok, in line with other traps/preparations. 

 

At the same time i would advise to people which aren't happy with the current preparations (i have to confess I  play thief not very often and preparations aren't something i would use) instead giving up on the utility  just to share ideas  about how to make a preparations build work and ask for what may be missing. They have potential ( Seal area and pitfall are pretty decent) in any case. 

Edited September 29, 2021 by anduriell.6280

[Lazze.9870]

1 hour ago, anduriell.6280 said:

Thank you for your kind comments full of useful and constructive thoughs

 

I'm not wrong though.

 

I have given plenty of thoughts and reasonable suggestions to changes that are actually within reason.

[Harak.8397]

I just miss the time when we could throw them 😭 ( I know, I know, don't kill me )

[Utomneian.9013]

On 9/28/2021 at 8:06 AM, Chips.7968 said:

No they didn't.

Thief traps got removed entirely. They got "preparations" instead - which are *not* traps (so trapper runes don't work). These preparations take 2.5s to "set" and then you have to manually trigger them by pressing a button again.

Never see anyone using them. Careful what you wish for... 

i see thieves use these all the time, it's just very niche. mostly for portals, permastealth duos will sit in towers and then portal nearby allies up. otherwise, once in a while i'll see condi thieves or maybe hybrid setups use the preparations along with a high stealth build and harass enemies.

[Chips.7968]

12 hours ago, Utomneian.9013 said:

i see thieves use these all the time, it's just very niche. mostly for portals, permastealth duos will sit in towers and then portal nearby allies up. otherwise, once in a while i'll see condi thieves or maybe hybrid setups use the preparations along with a high stealth build and harass enemies.

In the context of the original thread about traps... the portal isn't a trap. It's a portal. It just does transportation and nothing more. It has it's uses obviously. Mainly used to get people into a keep/tower after spending x time hidden in stealth. It's top tier design 😄 

Seal area is extremely limited in use from my observations in wvw. Not only do most oppositions have stability, the simple fact is most thief builds are mele, and don't usually have an issue with keeping up with opposition if they're attempting to run. But the real issue, as mentioned, is a time taken to place before activating. 

As usual, one issue of these threads is people contribute from different perspectives. From that I don't mean ranger vs thief, I mean pvp, pve, wvw. The same arguments / reasoning don't always hold true for each - which is one real issue about any thread in the forums.

If they got rid of trapper runes it sounds like they'd need to buff ranger traps somewhat. But i've not tried trap ranger, so can't really comment upon whether there are skills that synergise to awmplify their power or not. Thief preparations have cooldowns of 25,30, 35 and 60s. There's no trait to reduce cooldown and there used to be. So reworks are all good, but you'd have to hope there's some way to build to that advantage if using it (reasons to choose traits etc). 

One weakness of ranger with trapper runes is the anim visible on placing trap despite stealth. Now must admit, struggling to remember if that's while IN stealth or just on gaining stealth that it's visible 😄

Edited September 30, 2021 by Chips.7968

[Gotejjeken.1267]

Trap ranger is not fine, at least not in WvW. 

 

Trapper rangers are free bags, the only trap that has any use is healing spring and even that is mostly ouclassed by troll ungent, because with troll you don't have to stay in one place to get constant healing (and the ticks basically counter condis anyway).  

 

They need to rework ranger traps like they did with DH, ranger's don't have area denial or any of the other good things that DH traps do.  I never walk into a ranger trap and go 'oh man, which I hadn't triggered that', but I sure do say that a lot about DH traps if running the wrong build.  

 

 

[Zyreva.1078]

Proper built and played trap soulbeast is very strong in WvW. One of the better solo roamer and also decent in small grps.

In fact, it is the ranger build i'm having the most success with in outnumbered fights.

Regarding being free bags, that's true for 99% of rangers in WvW, no matter their build.

[anduriell.6280]

20 hours ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Proper built and played trap soulbeast is very strong in WvW. One of the better solo roamer and also decent in small grps.

In fact, it is the ranger build i'm having the most success with in outnumbered fights.

Regarding being free bags, that's true for 99% of rangers in WvW, no matter their build.

That is solely and exclusively because of the trapper runes and it's stealth uptime. It would be good not to mix those two up: 

* Traps are not good.

* Runes makes them viable. 

 

If runes are nerfed you will not be using traps anymore. Period. Not even with the one shot trapper build. 

[Zyreva.1078]

9 hours ago, anduriell.6280 said:

That is solely and exclusively because of the trapper runes and it's stealth uptime. It would be good not to mix those two up: 

* Traps are not good.

* Runes makes them viable. 

 

If runes are nerfed you will not be using traps anymore. Period. Not even with the one shot trapper build. 

Balance does not exist in a vacuum. Yes, traps are good because of trapper rune and as long trapper rune is a thing, it needs to be taken into consideration when looking at traps. Buff one side and you might end up losing something else and end up in a worse state. Don't break what is not broken.