Pick one Trade-off for Mechanist

[Kuma.1503]

RIght now it has two extremely harsh trade-offs and it does not need both. 

 

Trade-off 1: When Mech is dead you have to play for 100 seconds with 2 traitlines. You are half a class without your mech, this is a huge weakness for other players to exploit, and will also be punishing in PvE. 

This is not unrealistic either. AI in this game is not known for being durable. 

 

Trade-off 2: No more toolbelt skills. These are what make the engineer class. So much of this class's power is baked into toolbelt skills. They our important defensive cooldowns including stunbreaks, stealth, and condition cleanse. They also contain our heal skill for medkit. 

If we want to play a support Mechanist (which is an intended playstyle) and heal our allies with medkit, we will not be able to heal ourselves. This looks even worse when you consider that bandage self is one of our best AoE burst heals thanks to Medical Dispersion field. 

This trade-off alone is the harshest in the game, yet you felt the need to give them two?

The trade-offs are excessive, at the very least remove one. 

 

Edited October 22, 2021 by Kuma.1503

[Infusion.7149]

Even if you could run med kit with it I don't see why you would run it over heal scrapper which puts out quickness. Having more agency over your skills and movement is a good thing.

[Kuma.1503]

8 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Even if you could run med kit with it I don't see why you would run it over heal scrapper which puts out quickness. Having more agency over your skills and movement is a good thing.

You enter a 5 man pug. They already have a Dps Quickbrand. Very common scenario, Guardian is in the top 2 most played classes. 

You go Mechanist instead to cover your group on alac. You decide to run plaguedoctor stats and heal your group on the side with medkit. 

Except now you're missing a heal skill, and several of your traits don't work because they trigger on heal. 

Pretty laughable considering this is marketed as a jack of all trades spec with a viable support option for their squad. Yet their support kit doesn't work properly with the elite. 

It's like the devs don't even play engi or know how the class works.

 

Edited October 22, 2021 by Kuma.1503

[Cisii.8317]

The elite skill resummons the mech even if it's dead. Let's just wait for the beta before we cry amigrumps, we don't even know how strong the mech is gonna be and I'm not even sure if the resummoned mech stays with you or goes away after it fires the elite weapon. 

 

[Infusion.7149]

2 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

You enter a 5 man pug. They already have a Dps Quickbrand. Very common scenario, Guardian is in the top 2 most played classes. 

You go Mechanist instead to cover your group on alac. You decide to run plaguedoctor stats and heal your group on the side with medkit. 

Except now you're missing a heal skill, and several of your traits don't because they trigger on heal. 

Pretty laughable considering this is marketed as a jack of all trades spec with a viable support option for their squad. Yet their support kit doesn't work properly with the elite. 

It's like the devs don't even play engi or know how the class works.

 

DPS scrapper pulls 34K full booned and holo is an option in both power/condi...

I don't think you'll be seeing Mechanist in fractals for alac , CQB is less sought than HB in PUGs, and most hybrid firebrands heal (Seraph/Celestial).
 

[Kuma.1503]

5 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

DPS scrapper pulls 34K full booned and holo is an option in both power/condi...

I don't think you'll be seeing Mechanist in fractals for alac , CQB is less sought than HB in PUGs, and most hybrid firebrands heal (Seraph/Celestial).
 

If the marketed utility/support spec isn't seeing use in it's intended niche then that's a problem. 

Giving them toolbelt makes the spec function better, which is a good step towards ensuring their viability in group play. 

There's no point in giving Mechanist 5 man alacrity if it can't replace a 10 man alacrity spec in 5 man content. 

Edited October 22, 2021 by Kuma.1503

[lorddarkflare.9186]

I see WHY this is at it is:

They wanted to give engineers a pet class, but the toolbet consumes ALL of the design space. So by necessity, they had to get rid of it. At the same time, the mech is an actual persistent pet with a ton of HP, so a penalty for it being dead is required.

I have been complaining since day 1 that the toolbelt was the biggest threat to engineers getting better specs, and I am not surprised this happened. I would suggest they go with something like this instead though:

- Toolbelt while pet is recalled

- 20s Lockout to recalling pet after just summoning

- Pet Keeps 100 second death lockout

The tradeoff is that you MUST commit to pet or toolbelt for a potentially long period of time. But both are available options.

Of course if they don't do this or something like it, the other option is to overtune the mech to cover the power shortfall of not having toolbet. I am pretty sure this is what they are going with.

Edited October 22, 2021 by lorddarkflare.9186

[Kuma.1503]

I did see some big numbers on the mech during stream. This spec does have some harsh-trade-offs, but if they make up for it with an OP mech, then it should balance out. 

In that case it'll be a big trade-off, but what you get in exchange will be worth it. At least in theory.

Question is, does this create a balance nightmare?

What happens when PvPers complain about dying to overtuned AI?

Edited October 22, 2021 by Kuma.1503

[Infusion.7149]

21 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

If the marketed utility/support spec isn't seeing use in it's intended niche then that's a problem. 

Giving them toolbelt makes the spec function better, which is a good step towards ensuring their viability in group play. 

There's no point in giving Mechanist 5 man alacrity if it can't replace a 10 man alacrity spec in 5 man content. 

Look at the tooltip, it's 40s cooldown on the mech skill for alacrity with 5.75s duration for the skill (Crisis Zone), 1.25s alacrity if you apply barrier to a target... which forces you onto mace , a confusion weapon.

You'd need full 2-2-2 for boon support on it.

 

Edited October 22, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Kuma.1503]

16 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Look at the tooltip, it's 40s cooldown on the mech skill for alacrity with 5.25s duration for the skill , 1.25s alacrity if you apply barrier to a target...

 

This is where we can move past the doom and gloom and onto some fun theory craft. 

We know mechanist has a trait that gives them alacrity on barrier application. Currently there is no ICD listed

Ways Mechanist can apply barrier:

On  3rd Mace Auto (Spammable! -  5 targets)

With Barrier Signet ( 5 Pulses 18 second coodown w/ alac -  5 targets)

With Crisis Zone ( Currently no tooltip on wiki)

All together, they should be capable of upkeeping perma alac. They may have to weave in mace autos to do so based on boon duration. Depending on how much dps they do in combination with their other utility, there is potential for them to play an alac support role. 

Barrier + Alac synergy also makes Plaguedoctor/Saraph/Cele look more attractive on them, hence why Med Kit Mechanist makes sense. You would be able to provide, heals, barrier, might, and alacrity to your group. Medkit also provides cleansing, and a water field for blasting on a short 15 second cooldown. 

If fixed to work properly, Bandage self would add an aditional burst heal and cleanse thanks to Cleansing Synergy and Medical Dispersion field. 

 

 

Edited October 22, 2021 by Kuma.1503

[lorddarkflare.9186]

17 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

I did see some big numbers on the mech during stream. This spec does have some harsh-trade-offs, but if they make up for it with an OP mech, then it should balance out. 

In that case it'll be a big trade-off, but what you get in exchange will be worth it. At least in theory.

Question is, does this create a balance nightmare?

What happens when PvPers complain about dying to overtuned AI?

 

"Overtuned" in relation to how much power is being lost in each game mode.

I am not trying to pretend like everything is fine. I have been through this before with Scrapper, so I know better. But there are several paths forward with this class that allows Anet's vision, but make it viable.

[Downstate.4697]

I am ready to be nade+mech spammed. Take me to your mech god engi-sus.

[Kuma.1503]

2 minutes ago, lorddarkflare.9186 said:

 

"Overtuned" in relation to how much power is being lost in each game mode.

I am not trying to pretend like everything is fine. I have been through this before with Scrapper, so I know better. But there are several paths forward with this class that allows Anet's vision, but make it viable.

It's a rocky road for sure. I know it sounds like I'm just complaining, but having also gone through the rollercoaster that was Scrapper, I'd like to get the feedback out there as early as possible so that we can (hopefully) get this spec in the best possible shape while things are still being developed and changes are most likely to be made. I want to help make their vision viable, and I'm doing it in the only way any of us really can. 

Ideally, I'd like to see some of these EoD specs shake up the established meta and there is potential here! 

A spec that gives both alacrity and barrier can be great if done right. 

[Infusion.7149]

9 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

This is where we can move past the doom and gloom and onto some fun theory craft. 

We know mechanist has a trait that gives them alacrity on barrier application. Currently there is no ICD listed

Ways Mechanist can apply barrier:

On  3rd Mace Auto (Spammable! -  5 targets)

With Barrier Signet ( 5 Pulses 18 second coodown w/ alac -  5 targets)

With Crisis Zone ( Currently no tooltip on wiki)

All together, they should be capable of upkeeping perma alac. They may have to weave in mace autos to do so based on boon duration. Depending on how much dps they do in combination with their other utility, there is potential for them to play an alac support role. 

Barrier + Alac synergy also makes Plaguedoctor/Saraph/Cele look more attractive on them, hence why Med Kit Mechanist makes sense. You would be able to provide, heals, barrier, might, and alacrity to your group. Medkit also provides cleansing, and a water field for blasting on a short 15 second cooldown. 

If fixed to work properly, Bandage self would add an aditional burst heal and cleanse thanks to Cleansing Synergy and Medical Dispersion field. 

 

 

You're forgetting that confusion activations don't trigger on breakbars that are broken. It would have the same problem as mirage , except compounded as the vitality/toughness/healing power/concentration stats being dumped into the mech will do nothing for you. You'd have half a heal spec when the heal spec is cemented as FB right now.

It is similar in that scepter thief is far more likely to see use where toughness tanking is possible.

[Kuma.1503]

3 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

You're forgetting that confusion activations don't trigger on breakbars that are broken. It would have the same problem as mirage , except compounded as the vitality/toughness/healing power/concentration stats being dumped into the mech will do nothing for you. You'd have half a heal spec when the heal spec is cemented as FB right now.

It is similar in that scepter thief is far more likely to see use where toughness tanking is possible.

That is definitely a good point to bring up. 

We did see some big burst skills on the mech, so depending on hard those hit, you could time them with the breakbar. We saw a good bit of bleeding and burning mixed in there. This isn't looking like a mostly confusion-based spec like mirage. 

I'll have to reserve judgement on this until we either get the full tooltips or until the beta starts, but depending on how their condis are weighted this will either be a big issue or workable. 

[Random Wax Orc.7695]

The proper trade off is: No more lack of weapon swap.

Toolbelt should be toggled with F5, mech skills should be F1-4. Seriously!

When Mech dies it should merge with the player for 100s of Juggernaut before respawning. 🤪

[magic fly.2041]

2 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

What happens when PvPers complain about dying to overtuned AI?

Let 'em.

 

First few weeks nobody will have experience on how to counter it or any of the other especs so there's sure to be incorrect complaints about every single spec in pvp.

Edited October 23, 2021 by magic fly.2041

[Zzik.5873]

It does look like a stromg support. I think Anet is indeed going the way of "harsh trade off = op spec"

 

Its intresting, they even add break bar to the golem/mech.

[Obtena.7952]

2 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

If the marketed utility/support spec isn't seeing use in it's intended niche then that's a problem. 

Yup ... and if it IS a problem for Anet and how they want the spec played, we know Anet will deal with that. There isn't a reason to claim it's an issue ... it's not even released yet. 

Anyways ... I can deal with the loss of the toolbelt skills. IMO, very skillbar and toolbelt skill pairings were similarly useful. 

I can also deal with the 100 CD on the golem death. It inherits 175% of your own VIT and Toughness as well as barriers, etc ... if it's dying, you aren't recalling it properly. 

Edited October 23, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Shaogin.2679]

2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Yup ... and if it IS a problem for Anet and how they want the spec played, we know Anet will deal with that. There isn't a reason to claim it's an issue ... it's not even released yet. 

Omg your boot licking skills are unmatched.

Anyways, I'm going to wait to see how it plays. I think the lack of toolbelt skills may hit us too hard, but we'll have to wait and see.

Edited October 23, 2021 by Shaogin.2679

[Obtena.7952]

6 minutes ago, Shaogin.2679 said:

Anyways, I'm going to wait to see how it plays. I think the lack of toolbelt skills may hit us too hard, but we'll have to wait and see.

EXACTLY ... Personally, I don't consider the things the OP speaks of as tradeoffs. We didn't 'lose' toolbelt skills, they are just fixed as Mech Commands that are relevant to the traits we choose. 

The real complain is that we lost TWO skills in total, because you get 5 and this only has 3. The real answer is that if those 2 toolbelt skills are that important ... it simply comes down to a player making a different choice on what to play. What I do know is that losing 2 toolbelt skills doesn't make a whole spec a failure or even that big a tradeoff. 

Edited October 23, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Infusion.7149]

175% stats is a bit overated as the stats are mainly toughness/vitality. 25% minor adept (all stats), 50% minor master (vitality , toughness only), 100% grandmaster minor (vitality, toughness only). If you run 0 toughness gear it means the mech has 175% of 1000 which is 1750 toughness so I hope you enjoy tanking with an AI "pet".

If you are trying to spec a damage hybrid (beyond might at the rate of 1 stack a second) it isn't going to be likely it will work out unless the mech skills have extreme coefficients. The reason for this is the trait that puts out alacrity is mutually exclusive with cDPS trait that gives 100% condition damage and expertise to the mech AND also the pDPS trait that contributes power/precision/ferocity. The barrier trait (Barrier Engine) appears to be 434 barrier every 3s so that needs to be looked at during testing as it provides nothing else , it potentially only exists for people that run pistol mainhand to apply alacrity more frequently.

If you go pure condi, Rolling Smash (mech skill) had 8 stacks of 10.75s bleed on 20 cooldown. Discharge Array (mech skill) is confusion-based (2 stacks only for 10s , but it doesn't say if it is per each of 5 hits) and on 30s cooldown so the main reason you'd run the trait Conductive Alloys is for the golem to do CDPS (100% condition damage and expertise to the mech). Jade mortar is actually okay since it also makes on-hit bonuses from Explosions (Explosives) traitline work as opposed to just providing 3 stacks of 3s burning with 20 cooldown. I'd like to see it boost mace condition output slightly while mech is stowed since it is condition focused.

The power variant could hold some promise if the DPS compares with scrapper but probably it will be gimmicky due to the nature of the toughness given to the mech. Since J-Drive has a bonus damage for when the mech is away as well as a signet boost it's far more thought out. I would want to see the ranged option for the mech (Jade Cannon) remove the toughness down to below soulbeast levels so it isn't tanking (<1150 toughness) and provide more vitality for it instead. This is especially true since the main stat-set for power gear that has vitality/toughness is marauder's.

To me it seems like an openworld spec but the primary issue I have with it (outside the traits more or less singly being dependent on the mech) is slapping confusion on the mace autoattack and lack of any conditions whatsoever on mace 2 (Energizing Slam) which isn't multi-hit so Explosives' bleeding isn't likely to occur. It really ought to be bleeding overall on mace instead of confusion , maybe even burning on third hit. You will get bleeding regardless from the explosives traitline and by the looks of it it may be that camping grenades/bomb kit like a core engineer or pistols would be better.

If you take current condi engi gear and blank the elite spec:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PegAoqlJw4YasOWJOWL5A-zRJYmRD/JI3pJFTbA-e

At 25 might + banners:

Fragmentation Shot does ~2.8K worth of bleeding and mace does no conditions at all on the first hit, with 3 stacks of 6s confusion after completing the whole chain.

Poison Dart Volley has 5 stacks of poison (18.75s duration with gear) but the cast time is too long for it to matter really.

Static Shot does 3 stacks of 10.5s worth of confusion with 4 bounces (12s base cooldown) which is at least 2.9K damage even without skill activation.

Confusion is 92.75 damage per second without skill activation. Mace auto would be putting out 6s base duration + 56.87% duration which is ~873 damage in total on auto per stack or ~ 2.6K per auto chain for the condition portion. That isn't too impressive for melee range.

Energizing Leap has no condition output whatsoever.

Rocket Fist does 5s of burning (but only one stack) with what would be  +89.87% burning duration (since Explosives line affects burning duration) and that totals ~5.3K on use. Considering it offers CC it isn't too terrible.
 

Edited October 23, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Lynx.9058]

I do think we should have access to toolbelt skills while the mech is not summoned, but I like it swapping over to mech control abilities otherwise.  I honestly think the reason they didn't want us to have toolbelt with mechanist is so they didn't have to add a toolbelt skill for every signet they gave us.

The 100 second cooldown is only if your mech is killed.  If you dismiss/respawn it, the cooldown is only 10 seconds.  I think this rewards smart gameplay - if you dismiss before it dies you can get it back quicker, but if you aren't paying attention and let your mech get killed you suffer for it.

The biggest issue with mechanist, IMO, is the weapon choices, and this is more a problem with base engineer than mechanist itself.  I'm not a huge fan of the mace mainhand, but it might be ok - the problem is that we only have two offhand options: shield or pistol, and between those pistol is the only real option, and only really gives you one useful skill with blowtorch because the pistol 5 skill is absolute crap.

Engineers needs a weapon skills makeover and some extra options baseline.

Edited October 23, 2021 by Lynx.9058

[Shaogin.2679]

4 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

EXACTLY ... Personally, I don't consider the things the OP speaks of as tradeoffs. We didn't 'lose' toolbelt skills, they are just fixed as Mech Commands that are relevant to the traits we choose. 

The real complain is that we lost TWO skills in total, because you get 5 and this only has 3. The real answer is that if those 2 toolbelt skills are that important ... it simply comes down to a player making a different choice on what to play. What I do know is that losing 2 toolbelt skills doesn't make a whole spec a failure or even that big a tradeoff. 

You don't believe anything Anet does is wrong so stop trying to pretend to be one of us.