Untamed Hammer damage is OK on the Golem.

[Puck.3697]

4 hours ago, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

I guess I just don't see the point in having two specs that do the same thing. Imagine if Soulbeast came out as a different way of healing. Why bother spending the time creating something the class already has? 

tbh i can say exactly why.

Because this game does nothing for the Fact Old speccs have been used too much, theres a Reason why most MMORPGS in expansions Dont just launch a New Class.. they actually change up, Improve and Rework parts of the prior classes to keep them feeling fresh.

this is Something GW2 doesnt do. which means the ONLY new thing coming is litterally the Specc arriving or ur gonna Use a Identical Rotation, build and more to what u have been using the past 4-5 Years.

If Expansions brought Reworks to the Weapon Sets which have been weak. Changes to the Core Traitlines to improve upon their Orginal Direction and the ranger Sawe brand new pet families which bring New Ability options to soulbeasts F5 For example, we'd likely see People care Less about the Specc being a Replacement to the one they currently have as a Example

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

27 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

tbh i can say exactly why.

Because this game does nothing for the Fact Old speccs have been used too much, theres a Reason why most MMORPGS in expansions Dont just launch a New Class.. they actually change up, Improve and Rework parts of the prior classes to keep them feeling fresh.

this is Something GW2 doesnt do. which means the ONLY new thing coming is litterally the Specc arriving or ur gonna Use a Identical Rotation, build and more to what u have been using the past 4-5 Years.

If Expansions brought Reworks to the Weapon Sets which have been weak. Changes to the Core Traitlines to improve upon their Orginal Direction and the ranger Sawe brand new pet families which bring New Ability options to soulbeasts F5 For example, we'd likely see People care Less about the Specc being a Replacement to the one they currently have as a Example

Heaps of specs and traitlines have been improved or reworked in GW2, I mean you can go and look at any skill or trait on the wiki and it has a history of changes, there are several hundred for Ranger. Marksmanship alone has had over 100 changes. 

Typically ANet has done this AFTER the drop, when they do a balance pass.

[OGDeadHead.8326]

2 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Dont just launch a New Class.. they actually change up, Improve and Rework parts of the prior classes to keep them feeling fresh.

this is Something GW2 doesnt do.

Actually, they do, but 90% of the time it's about nerfing the old to give way for the new. So I'm expecting Soulbeast to get nerfed even further to make the new spec look more interesting. That's the Anet way of doing things.

Edited November 8, 2021 by OGDeadHead.8326

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

 

On 11/8/2021 at 3:53 PM, Daddy.8125 said:

tbh i can say exactly why.

Because this game does nothing for the Fact Old speccs have been used too much, theres a Reason why most MMORPGS in expansions Dont just launch a New Class.. they actually change up, Improve and Rework parts of the prior classes to keep them feeling fresh.

this is Something GW2 doesnt do. which means the ONLY new thing coming is litterally the Specc arriving or ur gonna Use a Identical Rotation, build and more to what u have been using the past 4-5 Years.

If Expansions brought Reworks to the Weapon Sets which have been weak. Changes to the Core Traitlines to improve upon their Orginal Direction and the ranger Sawe brand new pet families which bring New Ability options to soulbeasts F5 For example, we'd likely see People care Less about the Specc being a Replacement to the one they currently have as a Example

 

21 hours ago, OGDeadHead.8326 said:

Actually, they do, but 90% of the time it's about nerfing the old to give way for the new. So I'm expecting Soulbeast to get nerfed even further to make the new spec look more interesting. That's the Anet way of doing things.

These are such ludicrous assertions. If you have been playing for any length of time, you will know the absolutely massive trait system and skills changes that have happened in this game over time. People forget pretty easily.

The major balance and bug fix patches in the months before HoT included buffs to dozens of skills and major changes and buffs to core traits to improve them. 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Game_updates/2015-06-23#Ranger

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Game_updates/2015-07-28#Ranger

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Game_updates/2015-09-29#Ranger

They didn't nerf Ranger before Druid, they buffed it massively.

 

And they added a bunch of buffs prior to PoF as well.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Game_updates/2017-08-08#Ranger

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Game_updates/2017-06-20#Ranger

[Levetty.1279]

On 11/8/2021 at 2:39 AM, Daddy.8125 said:

U will never be able to launch a Specc for a Proffession thats a Good option in WvWvW PvE and PvP Simultaniously thats a Insane ask.

Its called Firebrand.

[Puck.3697]

2 minutes ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Its called Firebrand.

Firebrand isn't good at Spvp after all it's nerfing. 

And it's overpowered. It needs nerfing lol not other speccs being launched at the same power as it 

[Levetty.1279]

On 11/8/2021 at 12:35 AM, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

I guess I just don't see the point in having two specs that do the same thing. Imagine if Soulbeast came out as a different way of healing. Why bother spending the time creating something the class already has? 

A pet focused DPS would be sufficiently different from Soulbeast to make it worth while as it would play differently and would have different strengths and weaknesses. 

 

That said Untamed isn't really a pet focused spec and Anet doesn't really seem to know what it is so at least upping the damage in PvE would let people mess around with it in casual PvE without taking anything away from it in PvP and WvW.

[Levetty.1279]

1 minute ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Firebrand isn't good at Spvp after all it's nerfing. 

And it's overpowered. It needs nerfing lol not other speccs being launched at the same power as it 

Its just the most obvious example because its current. If you go through the life of the game you can find lots more. Skills splits, trait choices, gear/food depending on mode make this possible.

[Puck.3697]

2 minutes ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Its just the most obvious example because its current. If you go through the life of the game you can find lots more. Skills splits, trait choices, gear/food depending on mode make this possible.

Well yes daredevil is the best example really. But I'd argue it's more down to the fact the speccs having no options because the rest is so outclassed by it. 

But generally this exists because it's other options are bad .

I'd argue the fact it has 1 specc for All 3 modes is a actual design failure. And the better designs are the ones with different builds for each content. As it means the proffessions options and more are undertuned or the used ones are overturned. 

1 specc shouldn't be the top of all 3 contents. It's poor game design and balancing to realistically create this situation. 

[Puck.3697]

13 minutes ago, Levetty.1279 said:

That said Untamed isn't really a pet focused spec and Anet doesn't really seem to know what it is so at least upping the damage in PvE would let people mess around with it in casual PvE without taking anything away from it in PvP and WvW

Well I could tell them in 5 seconds how to. 

F1 - F5 summon different animal type pets. 

Each animal changes the last 2 attacks depending on which weapon your using. 

3rd attack becomes a you + pet dual attack. 

Retain unleashed mechanic but reverse it, make the unleashed state carry the CC and the hammer to be pure DPS. Then make F5 a overlay like druid so it can be used with any weapon. 

Return core m pets control. And allow base pet abilities to be used while it's unleashed. 

That'd create a real pet + player interactions and attacks and make pets detrimental to builds etc etc.

This would give the specc 2 new mechanics which are pet orientated. 

Edited November 9, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Puck.3697]

On 11/8/2021 at 5:31 AM, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

Heaps of specs and traitlines have been improved or reworked in GW2, I mean you can go and look at any skill or trait on the wiki and it has a history of changes, there are several hundred for Ranger. Marksmanship alone has had over 100 changes. 

Typically ANet has done this AFTER the drop, when they do a balance pass.

But this is patch's during the expansion mainly not on expansion launchs. The launch is the hyped part. 

Like. Imho 

I'd remove the tie to the weapon from the elite making the new weapons open to the whole proffession not exclusively the elite. 

I'd then rework weapon sets that have low popularity. 

Rework the 300 second traits to something more functional.  

Introduce the new elite specc.

The expansion launch is the major hype. The point everyone appears and wants to try new things. The more new builds, new metas and changes brought the longer the testing process will last i.e the expansion hype loses its novelty at a slower rate.  

the reasons they wouldn't do this is simple. 

they run the risk that old speccs and weapons become the meta which means players who Spvp or wvwvw potientally just don't buy the expansion. 

but however tying themselves down In such a way is very limiting they simply want to ensure the new elites shine to sell the expansion at the start, then introduce the changes etc etc to old stuff later on after they've got their sales. 

 

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

 

1 hour ago, Daddy.8125 said:

But this is patch's during the expansion mainly not on expansion launchs. The launch is the hyped part. 

Like. Imho 

I'd remove the tie to the weapon from the elite making the new weapons open to the whole proffession not exclusively the elite. 

I'd then rework weapon sets that have low popularity. 

Rework the 300 second traits to something more functional.  

Introduce the new elite specc.

The expansion launch is the major hype. The point everyone appears and wants to try new things. The more new builds, new metas and changes brought the longer the testing process will last i.e the expansion hype loses its novelty at a slower rate.  

the reasons they wouldn't do this is simple. 

they run the risk that old speccs and weapons become the meta which means players who Spvp or wvwvw potientally just don't buy the expansion. 

but however tying themselves down In such a way is very limiting they simply want to ensure the new elites shine to sell the expansion at the start, then introduce the changes etc etc to old stuff later on after they've got their sales. 

 

I don't get what you are trying to say with the first bit. My point was they buffed Ranger and changed up the traits (just like two of you said they never do in GW2) months prior to adding an eSpec.

They will never make eSpec weapons available with core or other eSpec traitlines, that is the exact balancing drama they ran into with GW1. Expansions adding new skills that had to be then balanced against the other core skills and skills from other expansions. It  became exponential really fast.

[Puck.3697]

11 minutes ago, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

 

I don't get what you are trying to say with the first bit. My point was they buffed Ranger and changed up the traits (just like two of you said they never do in GW2) months prior to adding an eSpec.

They will never make eSpec weapons available with core or other eSpec traitlines, that is the exact balancing drama they ran into with GW1. Expansions adding new skills that had to be then balanced against the other core skills and skills from other expansions. It  became exponential really fast.

I'm saying it's about timing. 

People remember a expansion by its launch, not by what it becomes. U see this with all launchs. For example: 

BFA had more bug fixes and hot fixes out of every expansion launched yet was called beta for azeroth for its entire life 

So if these things aren't in on first day of a expansion launch they simply aren't remembered and don't bring players back to the game. 

Every change that happens throughout the expansion matters less then the changes that arrive on day 1 because the launch of the game is what creates our opinons. 

And there entire system as of current is the pinnacle of their balancing drama. Every new elite basically flops or replaces everything prior which makes this whole issue when it comes down options and inside proffession balancing. 

The fact untameds only way of being good is to replace core ranger isnt a positive thing, the fact core elementalist is completely irrelevant due to weaver isn't positive either. 

Elite specs as a whole is a half baked concept of sub classes. 

If they wanted elites to work. Elites have to be sub classes. 

Each sub class have its own traits and weapons accessible to it 

This way each weapon skill, kit and trait selection can be balanced completely seperately to each other so changes don't have ripple effects. 

I think this elite line up pretty much show that the elite concept is running past its prime and Anet prolly need to progress this system for the better. 

EoD regardless what it is. How good it is. The quality of the expansion. I Garuntee you this expansion will be remembered long term as a failure design wise. 

It doesn't matter what they are now on launch. The first impressions of these elites is already shown and will stick long term wise. Because people will have already outcasted them and by the time they're bored enough to give em a second try and by then their opinons will be too deeply rooted. 

First impressions matter the most realistically. Changes over the expansion won't change those impressions it won't bring those who quit back. 

EoD has to bring the vast majority of the proffession changes (not balancing numbers but reworks etc etc) otherwise no one will care about them barring the people who'd of stuck it through with or without the changes. 

[Puck.3697]

On 11/8/2021 at 12:35 AM, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

I guess I just don't see the point in having two specs that do the same thing. Imagine if Soulbeast came out as a different way of healing. Why bother spending the time creating something the class already has? 

the fact you can identify this is the problem with the whole specc. The fact that Either this Specc sucks in PvE or is Just a mere replacement doing the exact same thing as Soulbeast is the primary point of failure for the specc entirely.

we have Power and Condi DPS Options (Soulbeast)

We have a Pet build (Core Ranger)

We have a Defensive Support (Druid)

We're missing One option here in a PvE Meta.

Offensive Support.

Untamed Should have been a AoE Fighter with Offensive Support, thus Bolstering Rangers ability to Offensively Support in PvE situations and Participate in WvWvW Content. i mean in all honesty.. we could drive this argument backwards.

 

 

[Substance E.4852]

On 11/7/2021 at 6:35 PM, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

I guess I just don't see the point in having two specs that do the same thing. Imagine if Soulbeast came out as a different way of healing. Why bother spending the time creating something the class already has? 

Because making the "pet focused elite spec" a WvW Squad pick was an impossible task no matter how much people chanted "Bunny Thumper!" over and over

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

9 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

I'm saying it's about timing. 

People remember a expansion by its launch, not by what it becomes. U see this with all launchs. For example: 

BFA had more bug fixes and hot fixes out of every expansion launched yet was called beta for azeroth for its entire life 

So if these things aren't in on first day of a expansion launch they simply aren't remembered and don't bring players back to the game. 

Every change that happens throughout the expansion matters less then the changes that arrive on day 1 because the launch of the game is what creates our opinons. 

And there entire system as of current is the pinnacle of their balancing drama. Every new elite basically flops or replaces everything prior which makes this whole issue when it comes down options and inside proffession balancing. 

The fact untameds only way of being good is to replace core ranger isnt a positive thing, the fact core elementalist is completely irrelevant due to weaver isn't positive either. 

Elite specs as a whole is a half baked concept of sub classes. 

If they wanted elites to work. Elites have to be sub classes. 

Each sub class have its own traits and weapons accessible to it 

This way each weapon skill, kit and trait selection can be balanced completely seperately to each other so changes don't have ripple effects. 

I think this elite line up pretty much show that the elite concept is running past its prime and Anet prolly need to progress this system for the better. 

EoD regardless what it is. How good it is. The quality of the expansion. I Garuntee you this expansion will be remembered long term as a failure design wise. 

It doesn't matter what they are now on launch. The first impressions of these elites is already shown and will stick long term wise. Because people will have already outcasted them and by the time they're bored enough to give em a second try and by then their opinons will be too deeply rooted. 

First impressions matter the most realistically. Changes over the expansion won't change those impressions it won't bring those who quit back. 

EoD has to bring the vast majority of the proffession changes (not balancing numbers but reworks etc etc) otherwise no one will care about them barring the people who'd of stuck it through with or without the changes. 

If people remembered GW2 from it's launch, there would be no players here.

If they did what you wanted, they would then just have to nerf it later for balance and then you would complain that they only make eSpecs OP during launch to get people to buy the xpac. 

If people were to not buy the Xpac because of the beta having made their mind up already, then they were realistically never going to buy it, or they would have quit anyway. 

eSpecs as a whole is a great way of giving the same classes different play styles and feels without creating thousands of new traits and skills. 

Dunno what you are saying about elites having to be sub classes with their own weapons/traits/skills. That is exactly what they are. If you are talking about adding different classes, then that is just not possible. 

There are 9 classes to choose from and so soon to be 36 different specialisations to play and several builds within each of those specialisations. If someone can't find several of those they love to play, they were never going to play this game, regardless of what is launched with EoD.

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

2 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

the fact you can identify this is the problem with the whole specc. The fact that Either this Specc sucks in PvE or is Just a mere replacement doing the exact same thing as Soulbeast is the primary point of failure for the specc entirely.

we have Power and Condi DPS Options (Soulbeast)

We have a Pet build (Core Ranger)

We have a Defensive Support (Druid)

We're missing One option here in a PvE Meta.

Offensive Support.

Untamed Should have been a AoE Fighter with Offensive Support, thus Bolstering Rangers ability to Offensively Support in PvE situations and Participate in WvWvW Content. i mean in all honesty.. we could drive this argument backwards.

 

 

Soulbeast is already Offensive Support. It just needs a buff to Leader of the Pack and maybe a couple other things (like Fresh Reinforcement sharing the boons with the party too) which could be done in literally 15 minutes. 

I get sick of repeating the same things over and over.

This is exactly the reason I am not advocating for Unleashed to be a DPS spec or a support spec. We already have those. Again, why make something we already have, just with different looks and button presses?

Now, if you were to make the CD of Unleash 1 or 2s, then put an ICD on cleansing Unleash and shorten the duration of the boons for Bolstering Unleash, you would be able to move more freely between the two states. At which point you can just turn the Unleashed Pet Hammer skills into a copy of https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rampage or something, adding additional skill facts for extra break bar damage in PvE, then add encounters where tons of CC is needed so it has a role and it is actually impactful and fun to play. 

I'm not opposed to it doing more damage, see my trait thread. I just think it should be something we don't have yet (and nobody really has that role). 

But, if you want to go the other way, it could be as simple as making Ferocious Symbiosis or Restorative Strikes a party wide buff.

Edited November 10, 2021 by Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

2 hours ago, Substance E.4852 said:

Because making the "pet focused elite spec" a WvW Squad pick was an impossible task no matter how much people chanted "Bunny Thumper!" over and over

Which is exactly why I stated a hundred times that we should get a petless spec.

But my solution was to have a Spirit Shaman. You lose your bond with your ephemeral pet to gain an even closer bond with the ethereal Spirits of the Wild.

Each of your F skills would summon a different Spirit of the Wild. Owl, Bear, Wolverine, Wolf, Otter etc. Use those actual models. But like a guard spirit weapon, not targetable. They would provide AoE ally support and buffs. You can only have one out at a time, but have a trait that improves them in some way as well as making them linger for a while after summoning another.

The Hammer could be ground targeted ranged AoE with the hammer skills flipping over and being a different flavor depending on what two pet archetypes you choose. Swapping pets swaps the skills and triggers the normal swap traits. Canine being Power Damage, Felines being Condition damage, Bear being defensive buffs for example. Then those skills would have animations to do with those pets. Like, picking a Bird pet makes the skills summon untargetable birds to perform the action, like Hunter's Call or Call Owl (The Norn Racial skill) etc.

So, you get your pet flavor and RPing, but you don't have a stupid AI which dies instantly.

Edited November 10, 2021 by Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582

[Substance E.4852]

4 minutes ago, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

Which is exactly why I stated a hundred times that we should get a petless spec.

But my solution was to have a Spirit Shaman. You lose your bond with your ephemeral pet to gain an even closer bond with the ethereal Spirits of the Wild.

Each of your F skills would summon a different Spirit of the Wild (Like a spirit weapon, not a target etc) which provided AoE ally support and buffs. The Hammer could be ground targeted ranged AoE with the hammer skills flipping over and being a different flavor depending on what two pet archetypes you choose. Canine being Power Damage, Felines being Condition damage, Bear being defensive buffs for example. Then those skills would have animations to do with those pets. Like, picking a Bird pet makes the skill X summon birds to perform the action, like Hunter's Call or Call Owl (The Norn Racial skill) etc.

So, you get your pet flavor and RPing, but you don't have a stupid AI which dies instantly.

Except we didn't get that nor will the Untamed be re-tuned into that because people wanted their "Bunny Thumper" nostalgia good feels

With those two aspects of reality established, it makes far more sense to ask anet to at least make it worth slotting in serious pve play rather than shout "but that's just soulbeast 2.0" as though we're ever going to get anything remotely different

The best case scenario is Anet making it so we give quickness to allies on disable and even that will probably not get us a team pick over other quickness spam builds unless the spec brings competitive damage along for the ride as well

We might get some heavy re-tuning of abilities but Anet's not going back to the drawing board. Not for us.

If they were, I'd rather they go back and retool Druid now that directly targeting allies with skills is a functional possibility and maybe get Druid a WvW team comp pick as a commander babysitter heal bot

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

1 minute ago, Substance E.4852 said:

Except we didn't get that nor will the Untamed be re-tuned into that because people wanted their "Bunny Thumper" nostalgia good feels

With those two aspects of reality established, it makes far more sense to ask anet to at least make it worth slotting in serious pve play rather than shout "but that's just soulbeast 2.0" as though we're ever going to get anything remotely different

The best case scenario is Anet making it so we give quickness to allies on disable and even that will probably not get us a team pick over other quickness spam builds unless the spec brings competitive damage along for the ride as well

We might get some heavy re-tuning of abilities but Anet's not going back to the drawing board. Not for us.

If they were, I'd rather they go back and retool Druid now that directly targeting allies with skills is a functional possibility and maybe get Druid a WvW team comp pick as a commander babysitter heal bot

Of course they are not going to completely gut and re-tune the spec now, that much is obvious and always was. They would never even release it to Beta if it wasn't already close to where they want it. 

But that IS just soulbeast 2.0. Soulbeast is a better platform to do that on, because it's already 95% there. All the mechanics are there. It just needs a few minor adjustments to make it a must have pick for PvE and WvW. Like I stated before, make Leader of the Pack 10 players with no reduced duration and make Fresh Reinforcement give the boons to other players too. Done. 

Now we can make Untamed actually do something interesting.