Current generally best WvW roaming/duelist build?

[SlitheSlivier.1908]

In trying to get back into learning how to roam on weaver. I'm wondering, what's the best all around build these days? I assume it's sword/focus and something similar to the metabuild starfire build. But I've seen some that focuses on barrier via weaver traits and weaver runes, seen some with more mobility (like the metabuild one), ones with more healing/ condi cleanse with water traitline. Some go air instead of arcane and some use stats other than Cele.

 

Thoughts on what the best all around WvW roaming build that's great for dueling?

[fuzzyp.6295]

The best build for roaming with Elementalist is the Celestial Fire Weaver build. This build offers great sustain through its barrier and heals  while maintaining potent burns and burst with its high might stacking. It's one of the toughest builds to put down in a 1v1 and decently skilled Weavers should have no problem fighting in 2v1s. 3v1s and higher it gets a bit tricky and you'll probably not win but you can still usually stay alive long enough for help to arrive. While I say its Celestial. thats because the majority of the armor is Celestial, its by no means to say that you can't run other stats like Grieving or Trailblaizer to help tailor it more to your personal preference. I personally run full Cele Armor with some Grieving Trinkets and Weapons for more Burn/DPS. But if you want a safe place to start, full Cele is good (Sword/Focus as you mentioned, OH Dagger is not competing with it atm) 

There are certainly some variations out there that use Air or Water for Sword Weaver, but those are much more niche and are probably finely tailored for each individual weaver with a strange stat spread that works for them. Weaver's Runes, I've fooled around with them in the past and while it pumps out a lot of barrier, I've always found that it was just a bit overkill considering the heals and barrier produced on a normal Celestial build. I don't think any build that uses Air would run Weaver Runes but I could be wrong. I know in the past there have been full Marauder Air Sword builds which were decent in 1v1, but usually it did everything a Scepter build did just worse since you needed to stay in Melee. 

Water isn't really worth taking on Sword Weaver atm unless you are fighting a pure trailblazer condi opponent and struggling.. but even then, Celestial Fire with Antitoxin Runes usually gets the job done, another reason why Fire is considered the better option for roaming. It offers good, frequent cleanse without trading off all its damage like Water does. (EDIT: To clarify, its not worth taking on a Celestial Fire Weaver. Water can still be useful with Air or Arcane if you decide to go that route, but it brings it own issues.)

But if anyone has their own builds with these trait lines, perhaps they could share it with you here.

Outside of Cele Fire Weaver, you have your Fresh Air builds that are still fantastic 1v1 and ganking specs but much harder to pull off in outnumbered fights. If you take the time to master them, though, you will probably be better off for it since its not crippled by its lack of range and mobility like Sword Weaver is. Condi Tempest run around and are extremely tanky and hard to take out, although I wouldn't say they are particularly good. Lighting Rod Weavers (Sword, Dagger and Scepter) are also fun niche builds to play that if you take the time to learn can be very rewarding, but have their own downsides. Finally, you have the ol' D/D Core Cele Ele which still sees play, although you kinda need to toss in some Marauders gear more than ever nowadays if you try that.

Edited January 30, 2022 by fuzzyp.6295

[SlitheSlivier.1908]

1 hour ago, fuzzyp.6295 said:

The best build for roaming with Elementalist is the Celestial Fire Weaver build. This build offers great sustain through its barrier and heals  while maintaining potent burns and burst with its high might stacking. It's one of the toughest builds to put down in a 1v1 and decently skilled Weavers should have no problem fighting in 2v1s. 3v1s and higher it gets a bit tricky and you'll probably not win but you can still usually stay alive long enough for help to arrive. While I say its Celestial. thats because the majority of the armor is Celestial, its by no means to say that you can't run other stats like Grieving or Trailblaizer to help tailor it more to your personal preference. I personally run full Cele Armor with some Grieving Trinkets and Weapons for more Burn/DPS. But if you want a safe place to start, full Cele is good (Sword/Focus as you mentioned, OH Dagger is not competing with it atm) 

There are certainly some variations out there that use Air or Water for Sword Weaver, but those are much more niche and are probably finely tailored for each individual weaver with a strange stat spread that works for them. Weaver's Runes, I've fooled around with them in the past and while it pumps out a lot of barrier, I've always found that it was just a bit overkill considering the heals and barrier produced on a normal Celestial build. I don't think any build that uses Air would run Weaver Runes but I could be wrong. I know in the past there have been full Marauder Air Sword builds which were decent in 1v1, but usually it did everything a Scepter build did just worse since you needed to stay in Melee. 

Water isn't really worth taking on Sword Weaver atm unless you are fighting a pure trailblazer condi opponent and struggling.. but even then, Celestial Fire with Antitoxin Runes usually gets the job done, another reason why Fire is considered the better option for roaming. It offers good, frequent cleanse without trading off all its damage like Water does. (EDIT: To clarify, its not worth taking on a Celestial Fire Weaver. Water can still be useful with Air or Arcane if you decide to go that route, but it brings it own issues.)

But if anyone has their own builds with these trait lines, perhaps they could share it with you here.

Outside of Cele Fire Weaver, you have your Fresh Air builds that are still fantastic 1v1 and ganking specs but much harder to pull off in outnumbered fights. If you take the time to master them, though, you will probably be better off for it since its not crippled by its lack of range and mobility like Sword Weaver is. Condi Tempest run around and are extremely tanky and hard to take out, although I wouldn't say they are particularly good. Lighting Rod Weavers (Sword, Dagger and Scepter) are also fun niche builds to play that if you take the time to learn can be very rewarding, but have their own downsides. Finally, you have the ol' D/D Core Cele Ele which still sees play, although you kinda need to toss in some Marauders gear more than ever nowadays if you try that.

Thanks! So you bring antitoxin runes for fire weaver? And do you use that speed signet like what's listed on metabattle?

[AliamRationem.5172]

2 hours ago, SlitheSlivier.1908 said:

Thanks! So you bring antitoxin runes for fire weaver? And do you use that speed signet like what's listed on metabattle?

The build's biggest weakness is that it's lacking in mobility and range.  Speed runes can help you to catch up with opponents more easily.  The advantage of anti-toxin runes is that they add an additional cleanse each time you cleanse a condition.  This is great for fire weaver specifically because they can trait to cleanse upon aura application and they can produce auras frequently.  Part of the problem with conditions is that they can slow you down, so being able to rapidly cleanse them as they come in will increase your ability to stay on opponents and pressure them.

[fuzzyp.6295]

6 hours ago, SlitheSlivier.1908 said:

Thanks! So you bring antitoxin runes for fire weaver? And do you use that speed signet like what's listed on metabattle?

I only use Antitoxin when fighting a condi heavy class like Mirage or Herald and mostly for duels. You dont nessicary need those runes to stay clear of condis they just make the fight easier. The best runes as mentioned above are Speed runes. Sword Weaver has some of the worst mobility in the game so the extra bonus to speed from the runes really helps you in keeping up with you opponent and maintaining pressure. 

Other good runes to consider if you mess around with you stat spread are Durability Runes, Firework/Pack Runes and maybe Balthazar or Orr runes.

I personally don't use Signet of Air, I use ToF, LF and Primordial Stance. Twist got nerfed pretty heavy handedly so its recharge is now 75 seconds, which is why some may choose to run signet over Twist since it has a much lower recharge. but I still prefer the evade on twist over signet. Both are good though.

Edited January 30, 2022 by fuzzyp.6295

[SlitheSlivier.1908]

25 minutes ago, fuzzyp.6295 said:

I only use Antitoxin when fighting a condi heavy class like Mirage or Herald and mostly for duels. You dont nessicary need those runes to stay clear of condis they just make the fight easier. The best runes as mentioned above are Speed runes. Sword Weaver has some of the worst mobility in the game so the extra bonus to speed from the runes really helps you in keeping up with you opponent and maintaining pressure. 

Other good runes to consider if you mess around with you stat spread are Durability Runes, Firework/Pack Runes and maybe Balthazar or Orr runes.

I personally don't use Signet of Air, I use ToF, LF and Primordial Stance. Twist got nerfed pretty heavy handedly so its recharge is now 75 seconds, which is why some may choose to run signet over Twist since it has a much lower recharge. but I still prefer the evade on twist over signet. Both are good though.

Hmm interesting. I was starting to think antitoxin runes instead of speed runes are better.  But if you use the middle Master trait on weaver instead of the barrier when using stances it might be a bit better. 

 

I feel like ToF is necessary because you need some sort of stun break. Without it, what would you use? I do like arcane shield tho.

[fuzzyp.6295]

41 minutes ago, SlitheSlivier.1908 said:

Hmm interesting. I was starting to think antitoxin runes instead of speed runes are better.  But if you use the middle Master trait on weaver instead of the barrier when using stances it might be a bit better. 

 

I feel like ToF is necessary because you need some sort of stun break. Without it, what would you use? I do like arcane shield tho.

It's not that Antitoxin runes are bad, they're still really good to have. If you have Legendary Gear, you should probably carry a set in your inventory to swap in and out. It's just that, as Aliam mentioned above, Fire offers a fantastic condition cleanse in Smothering Auras. Most Weavers use the Bolstered Elements trait, even with Speed runes, because most of the damage comes from burns. But yes, if you want to run a bit more aggressive like with Grieving stats, Swift Revenge is good. But you don't really need to worry about maintaining swiftness for the bonus on Speed Runes, with Celestial new boon duration you basically will have perma swiftness up as long as you attune to air once in a while (which you'll be doing alot for Pyro Vortex and Polartic Leap for mobility)

Signet of Air is a stun-break and blind as well, which is why people use it (in addition to the extra speed). Arcane Shield is probably not good since it has a much longer cool down and only blocks and lots of folks use unblockable abilities. Yea, it does damage too, but I only think Arcane Shield is good if you're traiting into Elemental Surge, which you dont want on Cele Fire Weave. That's more of a Fresh Air thing.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

Guess I'll be "that guy" and talk about my off-meta Water/Air/Weaver celestial sword build with pack runes.  I don't play the game at a high enough level to encounter any limitations, but I've found the build to be quite good at handling most things.

I run it like this for a few reasons.  The biggest is Fresh Air's ability to burst for high damage, stack vulnerability, and access the off-hand abilities at a moment's notice.  That flexibility is really what sells it.  The air line has plenty of crit modifiers, enables permanent fury, and also gives superspeed on demand.  The water line is mostly for condition cleanses, but it does help with stacking vulnerability and self-healing.  The biggest advantage to this setup is the great synergy with Cleansing Water, Woven Stride, Swift Revenge, and One With Air.  With this setup, you'll have permanent enhanced swiftness, regeneration, and also conditions will fall off of you like water from a duck's back.  The second biggest advantage is the large amount of self-healing the build generates, getting around 330 HP/s passively, and much more when factoring in Signet of Restoration and water skills.  The third biggest advantage is that, by alternately tapping water -> air -> air with the FGS, you'll be nigh immortal with permanent superspeed so long as you're holding it, while also capping vulnerability against your target.

I built it like this mostly because I am so used to using Fresh Air in PVE that weaver just feels wrong without it.  However, I don't think this build is without merit over the others.  

[Avatara.1042]

Without some mobility, cele weaver will get kited/immo spammed and killed.

[fuzzyp.6295]

15 minutes ago, Avatara.1042 said:

Without some mobility, cele weaver will get kited/immo spammed and killed.

Cele Weaver has poor range, yes. It's why Speed runes are often used to help give  Weaver more mobility and actually stick to their opponents as they try to run away from us. Outside of Deadeyes and Immob Druids, range its actually not as horrendous of a counter as everyone thinks. Swirling Winds and Magentic Wave are great anti-projectile hate. Riptide and Earth Vortex can help you evade channeled or telegraphed long range skills like Barrage Rapid Fire or Death's Judgement. And if you use your terrain to cover their range spam and force them to approach you, then the battle shifts back in your favor. You also have to learn when to engage range classes like that and be aware of your surroundings so you can take cover and kite yourself if need be. Thats all stuff that comes with practice though and I'm sure OP will learn (if they don't already).

But you are right, Rifle Deadeyes are about as hard counter to Sword Weaver as you can get in this game. But the good news is, even though you'll never hit them, you can also just, like, kinda leave? And theres really nothing they can do about it lol.

Edited January 31, 2022 by fuzzyp.6295
not barrage, rapid fire lol

[Sahne.6950]

I have been messing around with Ele alot and i mainly roam.

If you want a challenge Freshair weaver can still be viable but i wouldnt recommend it because it can get frustrating rather fast, because nowadays you will just be onebanged by a grenadeengi from stealth....

If you want to feel like a true Raidboss you should use the starfirebuild from metabattle with rune of antitoxin! the cleanse is so exessive that alot of enemys(especially condis ones) cant deal with you. however you will bbe kited alot, especially if the enemy knows what their doing. After roughly half a year of keepin my build with antitoxin i switched to Runes of speed. I have to say you are noticing that you are having less cleanse so you have to think about when cleansing instead of just pooping it out all the time.

 

BUT!!!! i would say 100% go rune of speed! suddenly people cant kite you anymore... AND people cant follow you anymore! the builds that can follow you dont have enough offense to get you. my survivability skyrocketed as soon as i started using Rune of Speed. Being able to pick and choose your fights is a big plus. Also not being able to chase a guy and therefore not being able to hurt him, letalone kill him is VERY infuriating to me. to compensate that i am lacking cleanse, i use sigil of cleansing instead of geomancy on the starfire build, but that should not be necessary... But i feel that nowadys in WvW everyone is using some kind of condicheese..... and having more cleasne = more survivability...

 

Conclusion:  Starfirebuild from metabattle with rune of speed and Sigil of cleansing instead of geomancy. Arcane you take the bottom first trait instead of the middle one -> you have enough vigor from last weaver trait.

For duells: switch lightningflash for stonebarrier stance (idk the name sry) -> more synergie from middle weavertrait. But only in fair /bow duells.

Been running it for quite some time now and i wouldnt change anything! also i use twist of fate instead of the signet.

Edited January 31, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[SlitheSlivier.1908]

I appreciate hearing builds like yours. I've played with water a bit too. Sitting in water with that double healing from Soothing Waters trait while using FGS or conjured shield are great (at work and can't double check names). Also the condi cleanse gm instead is great. I like hearing about those builds too.

[Sahne.6950]

20 hours ago, SlitheSlivier.1908 said:

I appreciate hearing builds like yours. I've played with water a bit too. Sitting in water with that double healing from Soothing Waters trait while using FGS or conjured shield are great (at work and can't double check names). Also the condi cleanse gm instead is great. I like hearing about those builds too.

i tried waterweaver aswell. if you want to know my opinion here it comes!

Water can be good especially if you take the right weavertrait paired with the "cleanse on apply regen trait" because you have traits in weaver that give regen on swiftnessapply and you apply switfness with alot of things.

BUT the standard fire/arcane is FAR SUPERIOR compared to anything else, because it gives you everything that you could ask for in a roaming build and even outperforms water when it comes to giving you health!

let me explain  

Fire is your go-to Damagetrait while also providing very good cleanse and mightstacking. Arcane with the first bottom trait and the heal/blastfinisher on dodgeroll is actually more healing then the whole watertrait will give you. also arcane is a great source of protection/swiftness/fury/basicly anything you would ever want.

if you replace fire with water -> ALOT less damage AND Cleansing.... 

if you replace Arcane with water -> missing crucial boons, arguably loosing sustain (water could be more hp/time but arcane lets you burstheal when needed! id rather be able to burstheal 2k health when needed, then regenerating 2k over 10 seconds, and thats only when using soothingmist trait which i would not really use cuz the cleansing one is better. When not using soothing mist trait, arcane will ALWAYS be more HP/time) Only positive for water could be the reduced CD´s from Cantrips.... mistform and lightningflash are pretty good / low CD when traited.

lets say you use water over arcane....  where does your swiftness come from? where does your protection come from? regen??? missing also..

main reason for water would be more healing/cleanse i guess? but that is actually not the case (which is weird) arcane is more healing than water. -> you can blast your waterfields better* or just heal on your dodgroll, also you gain regen when attuning to water.... which you wouldnt when not traiting arcane.

*(here is how to go from 0hp to almost full in one combo: start in water: "2" to evadeback and create waterfield-"switchearth" and step back a few steps-"untargeted-5-while looking on the ground"(ice comet will just fall infront of your feet when not targetting and looking at the ground,aka. into the waterfield)- "evade into your waterfield(earthblast from arcane)"-"2") This will blast your waterfield 3 times! it should almost always burstheal you to full! ^_^ when you have combos like this, and know how to use em... why would you look for *cough*more healing*cough*? healing is already toptier IF YOU KNOW HOW TO DO IT.

sad but water is only good when going for that aurashare....there  used to be a good build but when they changed retaliation it died. You are lacking alot of dmg that you previously had...thus you wont kill any good players anymore.... SADLY.  check out Cellofrag and his waterweaver! it was a really potent build until they changed how fireaura works. I played a shitton of waterweaver even after the nerfs to fireaura... but i have to say... it doesnt pack a punch like it used to... whereas the fireweaver can kill you in 2 condi ticks.....

 

conclusion: Fire-Arcane-Weaver is bae ❤️

 

Edited February 1, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Rodril.1385]

Hello. I'm barely playing anything else but weaver in all game modes (mostly i play WvW), and my favorite build is:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PGkAw2lZw8YZsOGKmuWavUA-zxIY1ohvMCLBisAsbA-e

It is very forgivable, allows relaxed gameplay, while also capable of slaughtering. I would definetely recommend it, especially to players, who just starting to try weaver out. It may seem weak compared to other weavers variants, but trust me, it is not that weak.

It's key features:

1. cleanse-galore: attune water, attune air, dodge in water, use any dual skill, use any cantrip, use water #2, use air #1 chain - all these actions cause cleanse;
2. perma swiftness + perma regen;
3. attune water > dodge > use water #2 > change to any attunement > use it's #2 skill = over half of your HP bar restored;
4. overwhelming burst, if you manage to prepare enemy player;
5. None of your attunement is your "main" due to none of them traited for damage, thus you are free to use (and learn) any combination while staying on approximately same level of sustain damage output.

How to do damage?

Perfect scenario:

1. Attune fire/air. Use Air #5 (Gale, unblockable 4 sec knockback)  - it will proc sigil of celerity, giving you 7.5 seconds of quickness.
2. Use lightning flash and sigil of air offensively, teleporting in melee range and applying 8 stacks of vulnerability, use fire/air #3, fire #2, use and transmute fire aura, attune earth, use earth #2.  With quickness up, you'll even manage to complete auto attack chain, if press buttons fast enough.
3. If enemy still alive, pressure him with any skills you like (chase is an option, thanks to runes of speed).

In non-perfect scenarios, you have to bait enemy's blocks, breaks, dodges. Once he have no chance to escape air #5, it becomes perfect scenario.

Most important reason, why i recommend this spec: in any duel you have enough time to analyze enemy, nothing can one-shot you due to perfect survival toolkit.

Notes:

• I use air signet over twist of fate, because signet can be used offensively and has 25sec cooldown. 75 sec cooldown of ToF is spit in the face, imo. 
• Tornado is 48 seconds cooldown in this build. Nothing to add.
• Sigil of Doom is nice damage addition, but main reason i use it: it downgrades enemy's sustain by a lot.

Edited January 31, 2022 by Rodril.1385
Removed unwanted linebreaks.

[Sahne.6950]

18 hours ago, Rodril.1385 said:

Hello. I'm barely playing anything else but weaver in all game modes (mostly i play WvW), and my favorite build is:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PGkAw2lZw8YZsOGKmuWavUA-zxIY1ohvMCLBisAsbA-e

It is very forgivable, allows relaxed gameplay, while also capable of slaughtering. I would definetely recommend it, especially to players, who just starting to try weaver out. It may seem weak compared to other weavers variants, but trust me, it is not that weak.

It's key features:

1. cleanse-galore: attune water, attune air, dodge in water, use any dual skill, use any cantrip, use water #2, use air #1 chain - all these actions cause cleanse;
2. perma swiftness + perma regen;
3. attune water > dodge > use water #2 > change to any attunement > use it's #2 skill = over half of your HP bar restored;
4. overwhelming burst, if you manage to prepare enemy player;
5. None of your attunement is your "main" due to none of them traited for damage, thus you are free to use (and learn) any combination while staying on approximately same level of sustain damage output.

How to do damage?

Perfect scenario:

1. Attune fire/air. Use Air #5 (Gale, unblockable 4 sec knockback)  - it will proc sigil of celerity, giving you 7.5 seconds of quickness.
2. Use lightning flash and sigil of air offensively, teleporting in melee range and applying 8 stacks of vulnerability, use fire/air #3, fire #2, use and transmute fire aura, attune earth, use earth #2.  With quickness up, you'll even manage to complete auto attack chain, if press buttons fast enough.
3. If enemy still alive, pressure him with any skills you like (chase is an option, thanks to runes of speed).

In non-perfect scenarios, you have to bait enemy's blocks, breaks, dodges. Once he have no chance to escape air #5, it becomes perfect scenario.

Most important reason, why i recommend this spec: in any duel you have enough time to analyze enemy, nothing can one-shot you due to perfect survival toolkit.

Notes:

• I use air signet over twist of fate, because signet can be used offensively and has 25sec cooldown. 75 sec cooldown of ToF is spit in the face, imo. 
• Tornado is 48 seconds cooldown in this build. Nothing to add.
• Sigil of Doom is nice damage addition, but main reason i use it: it downgrades enemy's sustain by a lot.

Hella outdated... your not even using primordial stance 😧 traitwise thats 100% what i Was running xD  but since the fireaura changes its nowhere close to the damage of starfireroamer im sorry...  

Tried the build... it WAS very strong but not anymore i fear:/ also cleansing with auras is more reliable.

Build might not be "weak" but any player with decent sustain will stalemate it...  i wouldnt die to this with one Hand tied behind my back and only mouseclicking....

Good noobstomper i guess... but you will have no success against anyone that has sustain...

There is literally NOTHING that this build does better compared to the metabuild...

Damage-weaker 

Cleanse-weaker

Sustain-more or less the same (less accessible cleansing->more dmg received,aka less sustain) 

Using auras to cleanse is jus to good because Almost every attunment can produce auras or directly cleanse. Whereas with your build you are limited to regen/swiftness to cleanse... your cleanses are hidden in water and air... which is your least damaging attunements which leads to less damage while being pressured...  the fireweaver cleanses NONSTOP... there is a Ton of firefield/jump combos that you can use to cleanse WHILE still staying oppressive... overall idont See why anyone would use it (anymore) over the meta build....   it is meta for a reason.

Edited February 1, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Rodril.1385]

Usually i'm roaming on borderlands around EU prime time. Maybe i just don't meet any spec which could make me upset with my build (including enemy weavers). I'm playing lightning rod air/water and starfire aswell sometimes, but it is all about emotions after all, water/arcane just more satisfying for me.

[Sahne.6950]

21 hours ago, Rodril.1385 said:

Usually i'm roaming on borderlands around EU prime time. Maybe i just don't meet any spec which could make me upset with my build (including enemy weavers). I'm playing lightning rod air/water and starfire aswell sometimes, but it is all about emotions after all, water/arcane just more satisfying for me.

If its emotions i cant argue with that... 

But overall the damage/healing/cleanse is no comparison to the starfire... it not even close unfortunately...  water/arcane was my baby back then ❤️

But your really telling me that you not find yourself in endless fights all the time?! 

Sure there is peole dying to that build... but they would have died to anything else also then.... every player that is atleast decent would Not die to it... you are lacking damage 100%. Celestial needs alot of might to work... thats why fire is so good! You poop so many fireauras/transmutes/might on every skill... its just to good to miss.

Like i said playedthe build alot... used to love it....  but its dead nowadays

Edited February 1, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[SlitheSlivier.1908]

22 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

If its emotions i cant argue with that... 

But overall the damage/healing/cleanse is no comparison to the starfire... it not even close unfortunately...  water/arcane was my baby back then ❤️

But your really telling me that you not find yourself in endless fights all the time?! 

Sure there is peole dying to that build... but they would have died to anything else also then.... every player that is atleast decent would Not die to it... you are lacking damage 100%. Celestial needs alot of might to work... thats why fire is so good! You poop so many fireauras/transmutes/might on every skill... its just to good to miss.

Like i said tried the build... used to love it....  but its dead nowadays

 

While I agree fire provides significantly more damage... there is no way water doesn't provide more condi cleanse when you use the proper weaver traits. Pretty much anything you do cleanses lol. In starfire, you don't have nearly as much, tho you may not need the additional cleanses.  I can def see water/arcane/weaver build stalemateing a ton. 

[Sahne.6950]

20 hours ago, SlitheSlivier.1908 said:

 

While I agree fire provides significantly more damage... there is no way water doesn't provide more condi cleanse when you use the proper weaver traits. Pretty much anything you do cleanses lol. In starfire, you don't have nearly as much, tho you may not need the additional cleanses.  I can def see water/arcane/weaver build stalemateing a ton. 

Fire is numbero uno when it comes to cleansing...  NO DOUBT! Maybe you dont realise all the ways that you can  apply fireauras.... for example just going into fire will give you 3 auras! One from attuning, second from 2 out of your fire 4 and lastly your 5.. if you go air afterwards you again have 2 auras that you can apply when needed(5 and using 2 in your 4 field again) almost every attunement combo csn cleanse at ANY point in time without loosing dps or anything... also you dont even have to bother traiting everything on cleansing because the one trait in fire is more than enough  + its alot more damage... its a no brainer for me ^_^ 

Whilst cleansing with water is  possible you are using alot of traits to make it work. You are using almost your complete build to fill the void that not taking smothering auras has created... You are missing stone resonance trait -> less barrier | You are missing barrier on dodgeroll -> less barrier | you are missing vigor on dual attacks -> cant take the bottom trait in arcane anymore -> less healthsustain....  SOOOO you are trading  Damage/barrier/healing for?!!??  a new way of cleansing?! You are taking water aka. the "healing and sustain trait" only to end up with less sustain then you would have with a offensive traitline....  i hope you can follow my thoughts and it makes sense to you... 😄

conclusion: you are traiting EVERYTHING on cleanse and end up just slightly above the cleanse that A SINGLE TRAIT in fire can put out.... Fire itself is more damage and you can tailor more traits to damage/healing/barrier, because that one trait is enough to sustain you.

Edited February 1, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[fuzzyp.6295]

4 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Whilst cleansing with water is only possible when swapping to water or air or air 1... arguably mist form cleanses aswell... and lightningflash... but i dint consider that a viable way of cleansing.

That's not true, at least with the build above. Every instance of regen would condi cleanse. So this includes:

Riptide (Water 2)
Aqua Siphon (Double Water 3)
Comet (Daze gives Regen with Elemental Lockdown)
Polaric Slash (Air 1, second AA)
Polaric Leap (Air 2)
Attuning to Water
Attuning to Air
Every Dual Attack (6 in total as they each give swiftness)
Every Cantrip (3 in total on that build)
Dodge in Water Attunement
 
That's if you're using the build that @Rodril.1385 is using above. I believe thats 17 cleanses? If they were to swap out Signet of Air for Twist of Fate they'd even get 18. I'm also didn't consider that he was running Stop, Drop, Roll which cures Burning and Chill on dodge, so really that Dodge in Water becomes a potential 3 cleanse.  Also didn't count Magentic Wave here which cleanses 3. We can also now look at Fire Cleansing options:

Fire Aura (Fire 5)
Attune to Fire
Leap through Fire Field (so we'll count this as a x2 for Fire and Air 2)
Dodge in Water Attunement

And thats kinda it actually? What makes Fire strong though is that whenever you detonate your aura, you get 2 cleansed. So even though that's only 4 ways to get Fire Auras, thats basically 12 cleanses. But you need to be able to detonate your Aura to get the full effect. (Not counting Lesser Cleansing Flame since thats kind of a 'maybe' for most builds or Magnetic Wave). EDIT: Forgot Water Attunement dodge for Fire, that makes it 13 cleanses.

There isn't really much comparison between the two, Water is the cleanse king. But between the sustain Weaver offers through its barriers to help eat up condis and its high healing output, you can usually survive better with what Fire offers for cleansing and don't need all the cleanses that Water offers... most of the time.  I also generally think Cleansing Sigil is a great sigil to use on Fire Weaver, atleast it has in the past. With Condi Hearlds not being as incredibly oppressive as before, its not as necessary to run nowadays but still a good option if you forgo more Celestial for DPS gear.

Edited January 31, 2022 by fuzzyp.6295
miscounted and missed a water cleanse lol

[AliamRationem.5172]

2 hours ago, SlitheSlivier.1908 said:

 

While I agree fire provides significantly more damage... there is no way water doesn't provide more condi cleanse when you use the proper weaver traits. Pretty much anything you do cleanses lol. In starfire, you don't have nearly as much, tho you may not need the additional cleanses.  I can def see water/arcane/weaver build stalemateing a ton. 

Does it?  Fire provides plenty of cleansing with smothering auras and arcane provides plenty of healing. Water just seems like the weaker option all around here.

[fuzzyp.6295]

2 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Does it?  Fire provides plenty of cleansing with smothering auras and arcane provides plenty of healing. Water just seems like the weaker option all around here.

I think it boils down to a constant sustained cleanse with Water vs a burst of cleanse with Fire. Water has a lot more options for you to cleanse and to cleanse rapidly, whereas Fire's cleanses are all locked within Fire mostly. You also have to rotate through fire twice to get the full effect to detonate the aura and there is still a 10 second cool down for Detonate Fire Aura vs 0 for Cleansing Waters. But when you do get it, its a fat 3 condi removal, and Fire Aura is easy to get since you will constantly be rotating back into Fire. And, if were being honest, you're also not crippled by being forced to return to water frequently either lol.

If you were building a bunker build for Weaver, Water/Arcane/Tempest would absolutely be the better choice over Fire. But there is no reason to bunker that heavy in WvW and even if you wanted too, Fire still offers the best trade off between damage and cleanse in the game, so its still the better option.

Edited January 31, 2022 by fuzzyp.6295

[Sahne.6950]

17 hours ago, fuzzyp.6295 said:

I think it boils down to a constant sustained cleanse with Water vs a burst of cleanse with Fire. Water has a lot more options for you to cleanse and to cleanse rapidly, whereas Fire's cleanses are all locked within Fire mostly. You also have to rotate through fire twice to get the full effect to detonate the aura and there is still a 10 second cool down for Detonate Fire Aura vs 0 for Cleansing Waters. But when you do get it, its a fat 3 condi removal, and Fire Aura is easy to get since you will constantly be rotating back into Fire. And, if were being honest, you're also not crippled by being forced to return to water frequently either lol.

If you were building a bunker build for Weaver, Water/Arcane/Tempest would absolutely be the better choice over Fire. But there is no reason to bunker that heavy in WvW and even if you wanted too, Fire still offers the best trade off between damage and cleanse in the game, so its still the better option.

i think it boils down to water giving you a slightly better cleanse (on paper), but you are loosing ALL OF YOUR BARRIER, some healthgain and about 60% of your damage.... TOOOTALLY made that number up 😄

 

overall i think fire is the... lets say.... more accessible...... way to cleanse you. Let me explain what i mean. Every attunement has some cleanse in it that you can apply at any given time(also you dont just randomly spam these cleanses out), whereas with the watersetup you poop them out passively and cant really say: OH KITTEN I HAVE 7 DIFFRENT CONDIS ON ME, BUT IT DOESNT MATTER HERE COMES THE CLEANSE..... You-are-cleansing-one-condition-at-a-time.... You kindof poop them out passive allthe time, which leads to you wasting some, while also taking some time to cleanse a bigger condi burst.... i cant see anyone holding back a good dualattack only because they dont have a condi on them at that time.... you also have to wigglearound spamming alot of abilitys and arguably shooting your dualattacks in thin air just to get 1 cleanse... also you have to be in non damaging attunements (water,air) to cleanse... wheras the auracleans is possible from every attunement besides earth i guess... but that has earth 4, earth 5  and the passive barrier dualattack from fire/earth so it helps tank thru some condis aswell. -> Easy access to condicleanses in EVERY attunement!

In my opinion Cleansing with auras is as good as it gets on ele.

also the damage difference is just to big to say: heyy that 1-2 random p00py cleanses are totally worth it xD

we are speaking: Traiting the whole build to be full cleansing  vs.  that one trait in fire.....    AND IT IS CLOSE.... while the damage is no comparison to eachother 😄 (keep in mind that you are using multiple traits to get the cleansing, aka. you are missing other things! for example you are missing... stone resonance!? not sure about the name... you are missing ALOT of barrier from that trait... you are also missing barrier on dodgeroll.... you are also missing vigor from the weavertrait-> you cant take the first bottom trait in arcane anymore -> less healing...  the whole thing has a big rattail...

you are trading ALOT of things to create a new way of cleansing, that is arguably not stronger... BUT you are loosing alot of things on the way....  trading health per second / barrier / vigor/ ALOT OF DAMAGE for..... idk... a new, very clunky, way of cleansing!?!?!?    imo it´s NOT WORTH IT except if you are trying to be a special snowflake...

Edited February 1, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Sahne.6950]

19 hours ago, fuzzyp.6295 said:

That's not true, at least with the build above. Every instance of regen would condi cleanse. So this includes:

Riptide (Water 2)
Aqua Siphon (Double Water 3)
Comet (Daze gives Regen with Elemental Lockdown)
Polaric Slash (Air 1, second AA)
Polaric Leap (Air 2)
Attuning to Water
Attuning to Air
Every Dual Attack (6 in total as they each give swiftness)
Every Cantrip (3 in total on that build)
Dodge in Water Attunement
 
That's if you're using the build that @Rodril.1385 is using above. I believe thats 17 cleanses? If they were to swap out Signet of Air for Twist of Fate they'd even get 18. I'm also didn't consider that he was running Stop, Drop, Roll which cures Burning and Chill on dodge, so really that Dodge in Water becomes a potential 3 cleanse.  Also didn't count Magentic Wave here which cleanses 3. We can also now look at Fire Cleansing options:

Fire Aura (Fire 5)
Attune to Fire
Leap through Fire Field (so we'll count this as a x2 for Fire and Air 2)
Dodge in Water Attunement

And thats kinda it actually? What makes Fire strong though is that whenever you detonate your aura, you get 2 cleansed. So even though that's only 4 ways to get Fire Auras, thats basically 12 cleanses. But you need to be able to detonate your Aura to get the full effect. (Not counting Lesser Cleansing Flame since thats kind of a 'maybe' for most builds or Magnetic Wave). EDIT: Forgot Water Attunement dodge for Fire, that makes it 13 cleanses.

There isn't really much comparison between the two, Water is the cleanse king. But between the sustain Weaver offers through its barriers to help eat up condis and its high healing output, you can usually survive better with what Fire offers for cleansing and don't need all the cleanses that Water offers... most of the time.  I also generally think Cleansing Sigil is a great sigil to use on Fire Weaver, atleast it has in the past. With Condi Hearlds not being as incredibly oppressive as before, its not as necessary to run nowadays but still a good option if you forgo more Celestial for DPS gear.

Comet (Daze gives Regen with Elemental Lockdown)

 you are kind of using weird things to make your point valuable...  you are aware that you have to be in double water for that to procc? 

We can also now look at Fire Cleansing options: but this time we do it right 😛

Fire Aura (Fire 5) + transmute ->3
Attune to Fire + the free transmute everytime -> 3 cleanse every swap to fire
Leap through Fire Field (so we'll count this as a x2 for Fire and Air 2) + transmuting it -> 1+1+2+2=6
Dodge in Water Attunement 

there is some flaws buddy....  your argumentation about cleansing is weird... it doesnt work like that (it does on paper but a real situation would be diffrent)

 i would calculate the levels of cleansing diffrently... just counting is nonsense...  ill explain^_^

Just counting every cleanse that you can put out when pressing every button once makes no sense... lets say you have a cleanse on a 4 second CD.... does it count as 1 cleanse? I know where you are going with this... your trying to compare the level of cleanse on the builds  but a game is way more complex then just: "how many cleanses will i get when pressing every button once".... from a gameplay standpoint its nonsense to just count cleanses and dont consider other things like application/CD/etc.  If you are interested and actually want to know it read thru all of that it will become clear as day!  i can guarantee it.^^.

1 single swap thru fire will give you ATLEAST 2 times the aura and 2 times the transmute... arguably a 3. aura and transmute when playing slow.... but ATLEAST 2 with additional transmutes... that is atleast 6 cleanses EVERYTIME you go thru fire.... now imagine how tedious it is to cleanse 6 condis with the water build..... swap water/roll/duelattack/swap air/dualattack/autoattackchain (oh wait i didnt hit it and it didnt cleanse!!!).. i dont think we are at 6 yet.....  The aura or atleast the transmute sits on a ... i think 8 second CD... maybe 9.... idk but its NOTHING. Keep in mind that you also cleanse 3 condis every 9 seconds ('Sigil of cleansing;only triggers when it makes sense). Sigil of cleansing and the auras are a steady stream of heavy cleanses every few seconds...  It doesnt really make sense to just count every possible cleanse everywhere. you have to think about how am i applying these, how often can i apply these, and is that enough?

just imagine you go thru fire->air->fire->air.-> and so on.  you will get 1 aura from fire every 9 seconds, 1 aura from fire "5" roughly every 10 seconds  AND you can combo auras with leap, again 2 chances for auras every few seconds. Now we add the ability to transmute every single one of these auras(on demand, you dont even have to, but you can push out some extra cleanse when the normal stream of cleansing is not enough, aka a condi is left)... and now we add 3 condis from cleansing sigil every 9 seconds ontop!... We are looking at some pretty impressive cleansing here! The build essential has some random condicleanses flying in every second or so! we are speaking "1,5-2 conditions cleansed/second" or something... while also giving you the option to instantly push out a bigger cleanse when needed. keep in mind that you reach this level of cleansing in every attunement and not just in some specific air /water scenarios or while wasting dualattacks to hit nothing! I am not saying that the cleansing on waterweaver is bad... it infact is one of the best in the whole game.... what i am saying is, is that you can reach comparable levels of cleansing with alot more barrier/healthregen/Damage by simply taking fire over water.

 Also you are trading alot of traits to reach that cleansing. for example you are missing EVERY trait that gives barrier.... you are missing vigor on dual attacks ->suddenly you cant take bottom first trait in arcane anymore ->less healing... it has a big rattail!!!  Just imagine how much sustain the barrier itself is... THE WATER BUILD IS MISSING ALL OF THAT!!!  Its not worth it.

Here comes the daily reminder that we are comparing:

A WHOLE BUILD TRAITED TO MAXIMIZE CLEANSING vs a SINGLE trait in fire....     the fact that there is even room for discussion about who cleanses better  / it being kinda even     shows that fire is WAY stronger! keep in mind that the cleansing would be the only reason to take it.... Damage/Barrier is far superior on fire.

I am really not trying to be picky or mean, OP asked for the strongest Build so i am trying to reasonably and PRECISELY show where and why fireweaver is 100% stronger in the current state of the game!

If you "Feel" that waterweaver is better there wont be any reasonable argument anyone can find to change your mind. But from a theorycrafting standpoint and from hundreds of hours of playing BOTH BUILDS i can say it is fireweaver no doubt! They more or less play the same.... Same burst combos|same sustain combos| almost same utility skills....so i dont really see how one can feel the one, but not the other... you are going for every possible leap/blast finisher anyways on ele... so you do the required actions to cleanse for fireweaver on the waterweaver aswell.. so i dont really see a diffrence.... but that could just be me.^^

I hope this made some things clear❤️

 

Edited February 1, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Za Shaloc.3908]

Speaking from a perspective of the other side (fighting Eles as I don't play mine much), Fire Weaver definitely seems to be generally the hardest to fight and overall strongest. With Cele gear they have a ton of sustain, and the cleanse seems to be at a respectable enough level to handle most condi bombs. Their damage is significantly higher than water Weaver and offensive pressure truly does matter when roaming. I play primarily power Rev, so I have to be really careful about even going near them because of how quickly the burns stack up, and can generally only beat them if I get them caught in a nice Jade Winds combo.

 

Truth be told, I am not going to waste my time fighting a water Weaver. As soon as I see Soothing Mist pop and their health go back up to 100, I lose interest and walk away. They are a total bore to fight and I generally don't see them as a threat even if I let them poke at me in at outnumbered fight because their damage at points of engagement doesn't seem to be high enough. 

 

With all that said, FA scepter/focus Weaver is one of the scariest builds for me to encounter in WvW. Not saying that the build is better or even good because objectively speaking it seems to have many more flaws, but I kitten my pants when I see them because I know that at any second I can be 100-0'd before I can blink. Honestly I really respect people that use this build because it seems to have an extremely high skill ceiling. When I have given Fire Weaver a spin in the past, I could still win a lot of my fights despite my lack of experience, but when I have tried FA Weaver, I totally crumble. That sort of thing gives me personal incentive to want to try it.