Constructive Thief Thread - SA and Stealth

[xblankk.4207]

Man, lots of Thief hate lately. 

I'm a G3 Thief main. I've tasted 1502 and went back down to 1300, but generally sit around 1400-1450. So not great, but not too terrible.

Another thing I want to say before I start digging into the issue is that most of this really isn't going to be considered until a few months after EoD and we see how Specter affects the class. Which, in my opinion is actually going to make SA even more ubiquitous to those who do rock Specter...

 

The two main issues being discussed I think are that one, SA is too OP and two, stealth as a mechanic is too OP on thief and too accessible. (Also Smoke Screen, but I think that's more minor and a side-effect on the main issues)

 

 

Issue One - Shadow Arts - As a thief main, I hate to say it, but I agree. NOT BY MUCH, but I agree lol. It doesn't matter what build you're trying, meta or not, SA always has a place in your build. It's never not viable. Crit Strikes and Acro are rarely viable. Honestly, I'd go as far to say Acro is pretty much never really viable. SA is overloaded, almost everything in that spec is solid. Maybe Specters will use Merciful Ambush too. SA just may be an overloaded spec. However, it's also fun and good game design to have everything in a spec feel like it has it's place and I wish more so that other specs felt as good and impactful to play with.

 

I think Smoke Screen is probably tied to the SA issue too with Cloaked in Shadow. Then adding in Shadow Savior with Shadow Shot, the spec just begs thieves to play more into the annoying playstyle that everybody hates, which fuels the forum posts. 

 

Some SA ideas...

1. Rework idea for CiS would be to remove the 5.5 second blind from entering stealth, but make entering stealth siphon health as well as blinds, or maybe just heal and not siphon health.
2. I think Shadow Savior is something that may need to be revisited after we see Specter.
3. Swapping Shadow's Embrace with Concealing Restoration to have thieves make the choice between Hidden Thief or Concealing Restoration would be interesting.

 

 

Issue Two - Stealth - People are hating on stealth... This one I generally disagree with, this is what makes thief more fun and interesting IMO. However, most of these points are followed up with "You can reveal!" And the counterpoint "Thieves can remove reveal!" There are so many other ways to play against it and as a thief in stealth I feel like I have to think and make smart choices. I need to position myself at the back of a player, who's spinning around so I can't easily backstab, and they can block, blind, dodge, cc me (Nec fears, Ranger roots, Guard walls).  But, I generally think most of these complaints are targeted at Deadeye... but Deadeye isn't really considered meta, and I think nerfing stealth too broadly would inadvertently (and maybe unfairly) destroy the best and most rewarding aspect of thief.

 

Some stealth/Deadeye-deas

1. Nerf Shadow Meld - No longer removes Revealed. 
2. Nerf Silent Scope - No longer gives precision.
3. Buff Premeditation - Maybe 3% per boon.
4. Buff Renewing Gaze - The 3 second regen just isn't enough. Refreshing  your Mark should be included with Deadeye's Gaze IMO.

 

 

Issue Three - Acro - Instead of supplementing Acro, I think DD kind of killed it. I just does it better and focuses on dodges. I'm not sure what to do here, so I'd like to hear more opinions. But maybe DD should focus more on blocks, and Acro just needs some love and flavor - make the grandmaster DD traits the Acro traits, sprinkle the GM Acro traits throughout the spec, and rework the DD traits would be interesting.

 

 

 

Anyway, there's a part of me that thinks SA and Stealth might be more of an issue at lower ranks, I'm not high ranked by any means and I don't think I'm good, especially because I rarely win my 1v1s as a thief in G3 and I've used these cheese builds before lol. Also, usually thief guides I read or Vallun video I watch, all say generally not to 1v1 playing as thief, but I don't play at a high rank, so idk if this has been going on more lately in Plat+.

[Myror.7521]

Actually the only issues that i noticed are: 

 

Too mutch blinds in SA traitline as you said.

Too many unblockable ccs on pretty low cooldown. (Could be fixed by rework the swipe skill to 900 range but block able, those would still punish thief a bit but is fair enough since the dodge mechanic is pretty decent)

[Crab Fear.1624]

2 minutes ago, Pati.2438 said:

Actually the only issues that i noticed are: 

 

Too mutch blinds in SA traitline as you said.

Too many unblockable ccs on pretty low cooldown. (Could be fixed by rework the swipe skill to 900 range but block able, those would still punish thief a bit but is fair enough since the dodge mechanic is pretty decent)

The swipe change won't happen.

When it first changed, thief mains, including myself, begged for a longer range, and said we could live without the unblockable. We asked for 900.

We did polls, all kinds of whining...

We made threads for over a year.

We adapted, and are grateful to get a rupt when we can.

But it's not going to change.

 

The dodge mehcanic for DD has been nerfed.

The dodge choices are what the elite revolves around, and it's core design, another thing that is not going to fundamentally change. 

Just let it go.

Shadowarts will probably get some chops, and even though smokescreen has been chopped, it will get chopped again.

THing is, many DD's still run critical strikes or deadly arts, and we are going to hear about more nerfs, from new players who have no clue about anything.

29 minutes ago, xKole.9175 said:

Man, lots of Thief hate lately. 

I'm a G3 Thief main. I've tasted 1502 and went back down to 1300, but generally sit around 1400-1450. So not great, but not too terrible.

Another thing I want to say before I start digging into the issue is that most of this really isn't going to be considered until a few months after EoD and we see how Specter affects the class. Which, in my opinion is actually going to make SA even more ubiquitous to those who do rock Specter...

 

The two main issues being discussed I think are that one, SA is too OP and two, stealth as a mechanic is too OP on thief and too accessible. (Also Smoke Screen, but I think that's more minor and a side-effect on the main issues)

 

 

Issue One - Shadow Arts - As a thief main, I hate to say it, but I agree. NOT BY MUCH, but I agree lol. It doesn't matter what build you're trying, meta or not, SA always has a place in your build. It's never not viable. Crit Strikes and Acro are rarely viable. Honestly, I'd go as far to say Acro is pretty much never really viable. SA is overloaded, almost everything in that spec is solid. Maybe Specters will use Merciful Ambush too. SA just may be an overloaded spec. However, it's also fun and good game design to have everything in a spec feel like it has it's place and I wish more so that other specs felt as good and impactful to play with.

 

I think Smoke Screen is probably tied to the SA issue too with Cloaked in Shadow. Then adding in Shadow Savior with Shadow Shot, the spec just begs thieves to play more into the annoying playstyle that everybody hates, which fuels the forum posts. 

 

Some SA ideas...

1. Rework idea for CiS would be to remove the 5.5 second blind from entering stealth, but make entering stealth siphon health as well as blinds, or maybe just heal and not siphon health.
2. I think Shadow Savior is something that may need to be revisited after we see Specter.
3. Swapping Shadow's Embrace with Concealing Restoration to have thieves make the choice between Hidden Thief or Concealing Restoration would be interesting.

 

 

Issue Two - Stealth - People are hating on stealth... This one I generally disagree with, this is what makes thief more fun and interesting IMO. However, most of these points are followed up with "You can reveal!" And the counterpoint "Thieves can remove reveal!" There are so many other ways to play against it and as a thief in stealth I feel like I have to think and make smart choices. I need to position myself at the back of a player, who's spinning around so I can't easily backstab, and they can block, blind, dodge, cc me (Nec fears, Ranger roots, Guard walls).  But, I generally think most of these complaints are targeted at Deadeye... but Deadeye isn't really considered meta, and I think nerfing stealth too broadly would inadvertently (and maybe unfairly) destroy the best and most rewarding aspect of thief.

 

Some stealth/Deadeye-deas

1. Nerf Shadow Meld - No longer removes Revealed. 
2. Nerf Silent Scope - No longer gives precision.
3. Buff Premeditation - Maybe 3% per boon.
4. Buff Renewing Gaze - The 3 second regen just isn't enough. Refreshing  your Mark should be included with Deadeye's Gaze IMO.

 

 

Issue Three - Acro - Instead of supplementing Acro, I think DD kind of killed it. I just does it better and focuses on dodges. I'm not sure what to do here, so I'd like to hear more opinions. But maybe DD should focus more on blocks, and Acro just needs some love and flavor - make the grandmaster DD traits the Acro traits, sprinkle the GM Acro traits throughout the spec, and rework the DD traits would be interesting.

 

 

 

Anyway, there's a part of me that thinks SA and Stealth might be more of an issue at lower ranks, I'm not high ranked by any means and I don't think I'm good, especially because I rarely win my 1v1s as a thief in G3 and I've used these cheese builds before lol. Also, usually thief guides I read or Vallun video I watch, all say generally not to 1v1 playing as thief, but I don't play at a high rank, so idk if this has been going on more lately in Plat+.

 Acro is a must take for the core S/D thieves, and yes they still do play.

S/D is hands down the best way to neuter any guardian in a game.

You can't duel a D/P thief, but he can't exactly chase you down and kill you either especially if you run HiS as your heal and hit a steal on him.

 

Critical strikes is better for upfront dps if you are only going to go for +1 bursts and decaps.

Deadly arts is a solid choice instead if you want to play cleanup, +1s and decap.

Shadow arts gives staying power at the cost of DPS, and that staying power will be the only legitimate reason it would get clipped.

The rest of the stuff you asked for isn't going to happen.

Genuine question, did you not see the other 3 thief threads on the first page of pvp?

Could you not make a comment in one of those or post this in thief forum?

 

 

 

 

[xblankk.4207]

20 minutes ago, Crab Fear.1624 said:

The dodge mehcanic for DD has been nerfed.

The dodge choices are what the elite revolves around, and it's core design, another thing that is not going to fundamentally change. 

Just let it go.

Yeah, the dodge choices just make the spec feel like Acro 2.0. I feel like dodges are also the core design of Acro, and acro needs love, I just thought it would be an interesting take. I'm not asking for this change, just entertaining an idea to make Acro more interesting and viable.

20 minutes ago, Crab Fear.1624 said:

THing is, many DD's still run critical strikes or deadly arts, and we are going to hear about more nerfs, from new players who have no clue about anything.

I agree with Deadly Arts, but I rarely see Crit Strikes. Most of my knowledge comes from MetaBattle, GodsOfPvP, and Guildjen/Vallun. I don't see CS on any builds.

20 minutes ago, Crab Fear.1624 said:

 Acro is a must take for the core S/D thieves, and yes they still do play.

S/D is hands down the best way to neuter any guardian in a game.

You can't duel a D/P thief, but he can't exactly chase you down and kill you either especially if you run HiS as your heal and hit a steal on him.

Might be a rank thing, but at G3 I never see Sword/x. Honestly, maybe one in the last 6 months in my games. I'm sure Sword would be more popular if Acro had more.

20 minutes ago, Crab Fear.1624 said:

The rest of the stuff you asked for isn't going to happen.

I'm not asking for anything tbh, just trying to get a better understanding of what the core issues are and offering some ideas. 

20 minutes ago, Crab Fear.1624 said:

Genuine question, did you not see the other 3 thief threads on the first page of pvp?

Yeah, the first sentence says there's a lot of thief hate lately lol.

20 minutes ago, Crab Fear.1624 said:

Could you not make a comment in one of those or post this in thief forum?

Yeah, but they were separate topics so I figured I'd address both in one place and bring up other Thief shortcomings as well.

 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

At least this topic identifies that thief will require some kind of adjustment in terms of active mitigation if SA is to be reworked, and isnt just froth-mouthed ranting to remove stealth to compensate for lacking object permanence. 

If most topics acknowledged alternative buffs, I'd be much more open to reworks.

>

1. Rework idea for CiS would be to remove the 5.5 second blind from entering stealth, but make entering stealth siphon health as well as blinds, or maybe just heal and not siphon health.
2. I think Shadow Savior is something that may need to be revisited after we see Specter.
3. Swapping Shadow's Embrace with Concealing Restoration to have thieves make the choice between Hidden Thief or Concealing Restoration would be interesting.

^ these are fine. 

>

1. Nerf Shadow Meld - No longer removes Revealed. 
2. Nerf Silent Scope - No longer gives precision.
3. Buff Premeditation - Maybe 3% per boon.
4. Buff Renewing Gaze - The 3 second regen just isn't enough. Refreshing  your Mark should be included with Deadeye's Gaze IMO.

These are fine, but shadow meld will need additional tweaking. If its gimmick isnt >remove revealed< it needs to do something else. 

Shadow scope nerf seems pointless. Dont think people are upset about current rifle damage. It should do something else for rifles then. 

>acrobatics

Please, thanks. 

>smoke screen

Fine, but rework acro first.

Edited January 31, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Sylvia.4870]

2 hours ago, xKole.9175 said:

Man, lots of Thief hate lately. 

I'm a G3 Thief main. I've tasted 1502 and went back down to 1300, but generally sit around 1400-1450. So not great, but not too terrible.

Another thing I want to say before I start digging into the issue is that most of this really isn't going to be considered until a few months after EoD and we see how Specter affects the class. Which, in my opinion is actually going to make SA even more ubiquitous to those who do rock Specter...

 

The two main issues being discussed I think are that one, SA is too OP and two, stealth as a mechanic is too OP on thief and too accessible. (Also Smoke Screen, but I think that's more minor and a side-effect on the main issues)

 

 

Issue One - Shadow Arts - As a thief main, I hate to say it, but I agree. NOT BY MUCH, but I agree lol. It doesn't matter what build you're trying, meta or not, SA always has a place in your build. It's never not viable. Crit Strikes and Acro are rarely viable. Honestly, I'd go as far to say Acro is pretty much never really viable. SA is overloaded, almost everything in that spec is solid. Maybe Specters will use Merciful Ambush too. SA just may be an overloaded spec. However, it's also fun and good game design to have everything in a spec feel like it has it's place and I wish more so that other specs felt as good and impactful to play with.

 

I think Smoke Screen is probably tied to the SA issue too with Cloaked in Shadow. Then adding in Shadow Savior with Shadow Shot, the spec just begs thieves to play more into the annoying playstyle that everybody hates, which fuels the forum posts. 

 

Some SA ideas...

1. Rework idea for CiS would be to remove the 5.5 second blind from entering stealth, but make entering stealth siphon health as well as blinds, or maybe just heal and not siphon health.
2. I think Shadow Savior is something that may need to be revisited after we see Specter.
3. Swapping Shadow's Embrace with Concealing Restoration to have thieves make the choice between Hidden Thief or Concealing Restoration would be interesting.

 

 

Issue Two - Stealth - People are hating on stealth... This one I generally disagree with, this is what makes thief more fun and interesting IMO. However, most of these points are followed up with "You can reveal!" And the counterpoint "Thieves can remove reveal!" There are so many other ways to play against it and as a thief in stealth I feel like I have to think and make smart choices. I need to position myself at the back of a player, who's spinning around so I can't easily backstab, and they can block, blind, dodge, cc me (Nec fears, Ranger roots, Guard walls).  But, I generally think most of these complaints are targeted at Deadeye... but Deadeye isn't really considered meta, and I think nerfing stealth too broadly would inadvertently (and maybe unfairly) destroy the best and most rewarding aspect of thief.

 

Some stealth/Deadeye-deas

1. Nerf Shadow Meld - No longer removes Revealed. 
2. Nerf Silent Scope - No longer gives precision.
3. Buff Premeditation - Maybe 3% per boon.
4. Buff Renewing Gaze - The 3 second regen just isn't enough. Refreshing  your Mark should be included with Deadeye's Gaze IMO.

 

 

Issue Three - Acro - Instead of supplementing Acro, I think DD kind of killed it. I just does it better and focuses on dodges. I'm not sure what to do here, so I'd like to hear more opinions. But maybe DD should focus more on blocks, and Acro just needs some love and flavor - make the grandmaster DD traits the Acro traits, sprinkle the GM Acro traits throughout the spec, and rework the DD traits would be interesting.

 

 

 

Anyway, there's a part of me that thinks SA and Stealth might be more of an issue at lower ranks, I'm not high ranked by any means and I don't think I'm good, especially because I rarely win my 1v1s as a thief in G3 and I've used these cheese builds before lol. Also, usually thief guides I read or Vallun video I watch, all say generally not to 1v1 playing as thief, but I don't play at a high rank, so idk if this has been going on more lately in Plat+.

     Let's cut to the chase. I'm already tired of those with Daredevil trait, Shadow Arts including the very same weapon set, Dagger/Pistol. Almost every Thief players go this way. Barely I see anyone play Core Thief and Deadeye. Less and less variety of playstyles to play. No joy at all, to be honest.

Edited January 31, 2022 by Sylvia.4870

[xblankk.4207]

15 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Thanks for the feedback and input.

1. Nerf Shadow Meld - No longer removes Revealed. 
2. Nerf Silent Scope - No longer gives precision.
3. Buff Premeditation - Maybe 3% per boon.
4. Buff Renewing Gaze - The 3 second regen just isn't enough. Refreshing  your Mark should be included with Deadeye's Gaze IMO.

These are fine, but shadow meld will need additional tweaking. If its gimmick isnt >remove revealed< it needs to do something else. 

Shadow scope nerf seems pointless. Dont think people are upset about current rifle damage. It should do something else for rifles then. 

 

Agreed on both, not sure what to do with Shadow Meld. I was thinking 1 condition remove, but thought that may be too much. Maybe just 1 movement impairing condition. 

 

Also with Shadow Scope, I'm just generally not sure. I was thinking maybe cut the precision by a bit or just remove the Rifle bonus precision half of it. No one will touch that trait without a rifle anyway. Make it just a straight up +180 precision.

Edited January 31, 2022 by xKole.9175
Typo

[Ashgar.3024]

Honestly don't have much more to add to the topic beyond what i said in the like 3-4 other threads i participated in.

 

I can agree with the SA changes but the Deadeye ones leave me very confused. I played it a lot, its my favorite spec "flavor-wise" and i can't wrap my head how you could think it deserves a nerf in its current state.

 

It needs a rework to remove a bunch of the clunk out of it. It has an entire row of traits (the bottom one) that needs to be scrapped and rebuilt from the ground up now that Specter will be a proper Thief support allowing them to ditch that weird Deadeye Boon Support concept they had going that that never saw the light of day.

 

It needs to actually have an identity outside just being the build you use when you feel like trolling people in WvW.

 

 

Edited January 31, 2022 by Ashgar.3024

[xblankk.4207]

Thanks for the input!

9 hours ago, Ashgar.3024 said:

 

I can agree with the SA changes but the Deadeye ones leave me very confused. I played it a lot, its my favorite spec "flavor-wise" and i can't wrap my head how you could think it deserves a nerf in its current state.

Yeah, I think my ideas on DE were a little short-sighted. DE is my least played thief spec, part of me was trying to pander and tweak according to the comments and complaints about thief having too much easy accessibility to stealth and trying to give those options fewer incentives from the DE tree.

That said, I think Silent Scope was a good place to look at tweaking. However, I think otherwise, the spec could use a lot more buffs. Like Renewing Gaze I think should be a lot more, but I don't have any good ideas as to what. Refreshing your mark on kill should be in Deadeye's Gaze. 

9 hours ago, Ashgar.3024 said:

 

It needs a rework to remove a bunch of the clunk out of it. It has an entire row of traits (the bottom one) that needs to be scrapped and rebuilt from the ground up now that Specter will be a proper Thief support allowing them to ditch that weird Deadeye Boon Support concept they had going that that never saw the light of day.

Great point, I was thinking of leaning into the boons to strengthen it, but with Specter I think you're right that it could use a different direction completely. Those bottom 3 traits are... not great lol.

9 hours ago, Ashgar.3024 said:

 

It needs to actually have an identity outside just being the build you use when you feel like trolling people in WvW.

Agreed. I've tried making some different builds around it, but I feel like its identity is pretty cemented and doesn't offer much outside of Power Rifle. Again, it's my least played thief spec, so my opinion on it shouldn't mean much.

[Ashgar.3024]

Yeah, its biggest problem is that almost the entirety of its identity is centered around Rifle which is a situational weapon at best. Would be great if it supported Dagger/X better than just bigger backstabs.

 

Honestly its main downfall in SPvP is that 95% of the time you get matched vs any other kind of Thief that has every tools to roll all over it. Specially if you run the meta Rifle +S/D setup that's mandatory to punch through most of the current meta, both weapon setups are hopeless vs a decent D/P or P/D Thief and i experienced both sides of the matchup many many times (P/D Daredevil and Deadeye are my go to builds.), so i feel confident in that statement.

 

Only way to really have a chance vs other Thieves as Deadeye is playing Crit/SA/Deadeye with the GM trait that gives you quickness on Mark with D/P on switch but then you lose most of your pressure vs virtually everything else.

 

I have a bunch of ideas that could make it feel better such as a GM that would turn crouching into a Mantra style ability that would allow you to use crouched skills on the move on a cooldown but honestly i'm not a game designer and i find games more fun to play when i don't try to do their job.

Edited January 31, 2022 by Ashgar.3024

[xblankk.4207]

Love playing that Crit/SA/DE - D/P build, but never in ranked (for exactly the reasons you said) lol. Occasionally I take Maleficent Seven just because it makes fights really fun and challenging trying to hit that 7 malice and feeling like I ascend for 10 seconds lol.

 

But yeah, I generally agree with you - I'd love for everything to be viable in ranked SPvP to an extent, just not sure how to tweak DE in a way that makes it more accessible for other weapon sets and playstyles. With DD for example, you rarely ever see staff in SPvP and the traits still work really well without it.

 

[Crab Fear.1624]

13 hours ago, xKole.9175 said:

Yeah, the dodge choices just make the spec feel like Acro 2.0. I feel like dodges are also the core design of Acro, and acro needs love, I just thought it would be an interesting take. I'm not asking for this change, just entertaining an idea to make Acro more interesting and viable.

I agree with Deadly Arts, but I rarely see Crit Strikes. Most of my knowledge comes from MetaBattle, GodsOfPvP, and Guildjen/Vallun. I don't see CS on any builds.

Might be a rank thing, but at G3 I never see Sword/x. Honestly, maybe one in the last 6 months in my games. I'm sure Sword would be more popular if Acro had more.

I'm not asking for anything tbh, just trying to get a better understanding of what the core issues are and offering some ideas. 

Yeah, the first sentence says there's a lot of thief hate lately lol.

Yeah, but they were separate topics so I figured I'd address both in one place and bring up other Thief shortcomings as well.

 

Idk, I see s/d enough to believe players are aware that it's still strong.

You can go marauders on core and still have 2700 power on scholars, it's punishing to  everything and evasive.

Maybe players feel like sa dp fate keeps then out, but if SA takes a nerf, you will probably see a rise in thief variety, in general.

The build obliterates guardians from team fights making anyone at mid fights vulnerable, and it can as a +1 take away 90% of any side noders defense, over and over.

 

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PawAwiVlFw2YisLGJOaT6rTA-z5IeKZKE6VEUxCojJgtGA

 

But many thief builds fall out of sights and commentary by how well they can do against SA DP.

 

Most thief builds bring what is needed to be successful, but there is one main gatekeeper 

...even so, I think variants of SD like the one I linked finds ample success even if there is an SA DP, just one more duel to avoid.

The tradeoff always seemed fair.

[Ashgar.3024]

2 hours ago, xKole.9175 said:

But yeah, I generally agree with you - I'd love for everything to be viable in ranked SPvP to an extent, just not sure how to tweak DE in a way that makes it more accessible for other weapon sets and playstyles. With DD for example, you rarely ever see staff in SPvP and the traits still work really well without it.

 

That's one of the crux of the problem, Daredevil wouldn't nearly be played as much if it only worked with Staff as its a pretty clunky weapon really focused on cleave damage which isn't the most important thing in PvP, so Deadeye having mostly traits focused on improving Rifle who suffer from the same "hyper-specialization", makes the whole class feel terrible in a lot of scenario.

2 hours ago, xKole.9175 said:

Love playing that Crit/SA/DE - D/P build, but never in ranked (for exactly the reasons you said) lol. Occasionally I take Maleficent Seven just because it makes fights really fun and challenging trying to hit that 7 malice and feeling like I ascend for 10 seconds lol.

 

I run Maleficient Seven on the more generalist roaming build, get it to proc cleaving with Rifle 2 then crouch and go to town if the enemy team lets me. But obviously that doesn't tend to work the higher you go as people will pretty much have their mind set on shutting you down as soon as they see the icone in the lobby if they see a Deadeye. I think the boon spam on it is probably a bit much, i'd probably trade off some Might on it (5 instead of 10) but make that a full 7 stacks Death's Judgement either Pierce and/or is unblockable. I understand why they removed unblockable from it ages ago, was oppressive specially since back then everyone ran Be Quick or Be Killed, but realistically in PvP right now if a DE stacks 7 Malice on you, without Quickness unless he blows Haste, there's absolutely no way you don't know he's around. Having all that setup just being neutered by a random pet passive by, or a random clone in the way or aegis that just passively pulsed from a Guardian is beyond infuriating.

 

But yeah for Thief v Thief you need BQoBK, the fight just won't last long enough for you to proc 7 malice either way normally lol.

Edited January 31, 2022 by Ashgar.3024

[xblankk.4207]

1 hour ago, Crab Fear.1624 said:

Idk, I see s/d enough to believe players are aware that it's still strong.

You can go marauders on core and still have 2700 power on scholars, it's punishing to  everything and evasive.

Maybe players feel like sa dp fate keeps then out, but if SA takes a nerf, you will probably see a rise in thief variety, in general.

The build obliterates guardians from team fights making anyone at mid fights vulnerable, and it can as a +1 take away 90% of any side noders defense, over and over.

Yeah, I think I need to give S/D more attention myself. I found it fun but generally less rewarding. I think I just need a lot more practice tbh.

Do you mind me asking what rank you are?

[Ashgar.3024]

3 minutes ago, xKole.9175 said:

Do you mind me asking what rank you are?

Same as you, hovering between G3 and Plat 1. Currently 1407 but i started the season with a really bad placement and only played 32 games, need to get some in to at least finish my boxes before the 14th lol . Pretty sure i ran into you before.

Edited January 31, 2022 by Ashgar.3024

[xblankk.4207]

Just now, Ashgar.3024 said:

Same as you, hovering between G3 and Plat 1. Currently 1407. Pretty sure i ran into you before.

Probably, my ign is Kole as well (Kole Shadow is my thief - very original and creative, I know). lol

 

Most of my other toons are Kole something or Kolett something.

[Ashgar.3024]

2 minutes ago, xKole.9175 said:

Probably, my ign is Kole as well (Kole Shadow is my thief - very original and creative, I know). lol

 

Most of my other toons are Kole something or Kolett something.

 

https://i.imgur.com/FhrHjpR.jpg

 

All my toons have random RP names cause i'm a nerd though, my tag is the name of my main Thief i play as Deadeye but my Daredevil is a Sylvari.

Edited January 31, 2022 by Ashgar.3024

[anjo.6143]

Sorry, u say sa is op, stealth is op and u have really low rating? Thats in fact advocates against what u saying. 

[anjo.6143]

3 hours ago, Crab Fear.1624 said:

Idk, I see s/d enough to believe players are aware that it's still strong.

You can go marauders on core and still have 2700 power on scholars, it's punishing to  everything and evasive.

Maybe players feel like sa dp fate keeps then out, but if SA takes a nerf, you will probably see a rise in thief variety, in general.

The build obliterates guardians from team fights making anyone at mid fights vulnerable, and it can as a +1 take away 90% of any side noders defense, over and over.

 

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PawAwiVlFw2YisLGJOaT6rTA-z5IeKZKE6VEUxCojJgtGA

 

But many thief builds fall out of sights and commentary by how well they can do against SA DP.

 

Most thief builds bring what is needed to be successful, but there is one main gatekeeper 

...even so, I think variants of SD like the one I linked finds ample success even if there is an SA DP, just one more duel to avoid.

The tradeoff always seemed fair.

Sword gets destroyed by dp sa. 

[Crab Fear.1624]

21 minutes ago, anjo.6143 said:

Sword gets destroyed by dp sa. 

Yeah, it's probably why I said that.

I already said SA DP is a thief build gatekeeper.

But realistically, only in  1 v 1, and the build I posted you can't hawk me down, so it's really up to flavor of the team if I avoid the duel.

So, in short, if you play and avoid taking a 1 v 1 with DP thief, you can be an asset to your team, perhaps even more so if they have strong support.

[xblankk.4207]

32 minutes ago, anjo.6143 said:

Sorry, u say sa is op, stealth is op and u have really low rating? Thats in fact advocates against what u saying. 

I said that's what other people are saying, that's not what I said my opinions are. I said SA is overloaded with viable options, which I also said is good game design.
I also said I disagree that stealth is OP, but lately, it has been a topic that's brought up in other thief threads.

Also, is 1450 really a "really low rating"? I feel like it may be average, which I feel would advocate more so for my opinions, that being the average player's opinion.

Lastly, I was wondering how much people's rank affected their opinion on the matter... So feel free to share your rank and elaborate on your opinions and contribute to the discussion. 🙂

 

[Curennos.9307]

I have an overarching suggestion: Shadow Arts should encourage dipping in and out of stealth, while stealth duration increases should be removed and bonuses inside stealth should be heavily limited. For ex, removing Meld with Shadows and adding a bit of duration to the parts of the traitline that went from 0.5 or .25 sec stealth duration to 1.XX duration could just be a flat...0.75, 1 sec, etc. Changing Shadow's Rejuvenation to be a heal + ini gain only when coming out of stealth would also be helpful.

 

Repeat this concept across all SA traits, define/differentiate traits and their purposes from each other (SA GM traits both have two 'go into stealth for defense' traits, and imo CiS could have its blind duration halved or more).

 

I don't think stealth as a mechanic is too strong - I think there's just too many traits giving too lengthy durations of stealth with too many bonuses in stealth.

[Ashgar.3024]

2 hours ago, anjo.6143 said:

Sorry, u say sa is op, stealth is op and u have really low rating? Thats in fact advocates against what u saying. 

Plat 1 is top 250 lol. I know SPvP isn't exactly thriving but i'd wager that's still better than at least 95% of the playerbase.

 

As far as i'm concerned i don't think SA is even OP. Speed up the meta an inch or two and it instantly goes back to being the meme it always was until now.

 

Edited January 31, 2022 by Ashgar.3024

[xblankk.4207]

57 minutes ago, Curennos.9307 said:

I have an overarching suggestion: Shadow Arts should encourage dipping in and out of stealth, while stealth duration increases should be removed and bonuses inside stealth should be heavily limited. For ex, removing Meld with Shadows and adding a bit of duration to the parts of the traitline that went from 0.5 or .25 sec stealth duration to 1.XX duration could just be a flat...0.75, 1 sec, etc. Changing Shadow's Rejuvenation to be a heal + ini gain only when coming out of stealth would also be helpful.

 

Repeat this concept across all SA traits, define/differentiate traits and their purposes from each other (SA GM traits both have two 'go into stealth for defense' traits, and imo CiS could have its blind duration halved or more).

 

I don't think stealth as a mechanic is too strong - I think there's just too many traits giving too lengthy durations of stealth with too many bonuses in stealth.

Nice ideas, I like that coming out of stealth would have more incentive. I think that's a solid way to encourage different ways of playing around with the mechanic. 

I agree that stealth isn't too strong, but yeah, it can definitely be traited to stay in it as much as possible and whether or not that's a good thing, I'm not sure.

[Sylvia.4870]

2 hours ago, anjo.6143 said:

Sword gets destroyed by dp sa. 

      Without blindness as a helpful assistance, Blackpowder as an easy method to access stealth with a leap combo from Heartseeker, one who wields Dagger/Pistol might get in trouble easily. Blindness is the real enemy to those who play Sword/Dagger.

Edited January 31, 2022 by Sylvia.4870