Constructive Thief Thread - SA and Stealth

[anjo.6143]

10 minutes ago, Ashgar.3024 said:

Plat 1 is top 250 lol. I know SPvP isn't exactly thriving but i'd wager that's still better than at least 95% of the playerbase.

 

As far as i'm concerned i don't think SA is even OP. Speed up the meta an inch or two and it instantly goes back to being the meme it always was until now.

 

 

Meme? SA is meta since sind came with core build.

And no, i dont think it is op at all, but after Edson won mat with shadows rejuvenation trait, sidenoders have to stand still on a node forever otherwise will get decaped always. 

Any other complain is just a finding that playerbase is sadly not good. 

 

Also, ye, you may have on NA, at least, 40 good players, the rest is a l2p issue. The conquest playerbase is really really bad. 

[Ashgar.3024]

41 minutes ago, anjo.6143 said:

 

Meme? SA is meta since sind came with core build.

And no, i dont think it is op at all, but after Edson won mat with shadows rejuvenation trait, sidenoders have to stand still on a node forever otherwise will get decaped always. 

Any other complain is just a finding that playerbase is sadly not good. 

 

Also, ye, you may have on NA, at least, 40 good players, the rest is a l2p issue. The conquest playerbase is really really bad. 

You realize i used to be pretty competitive in 2 other games (im not in this one, i just play for fun) and i've read and heard that exact same thing every time where the top end just circlepleasure itself while looking down at the "peasants" 99% playing whatever game they sunk 20,000+ hours of their life into to get where they are.

 

Its a very old tale that's entirely irrelevant to how popular or alive a game is.

Edited January 31, 2022 by Ashgar.3024

[FarmBotXD.1430]

Thief single-handedly makes sidenoding miserable, and thats not changing any time soon 😄

[Bazsi.2734]

On 1/31/2022 at 2:42 AM, xKole.9175 said:

Man, lots of Thief hate lately. 

I'm a G3 Thief main. I've tasted 1502 and went back down to 1300, but generally sit around 1400-1450. So not great, but not too terrible.

Another thing I want to say before I start digging into the issue is that most of this really isn't going to be considered until a few months after EoD and we see how Specter affects the class. Which, in my opinion is actually going to make SA even more ubiquitous to those who do rock Specter...

 

The two main issues being discussed I think are that one, SA is too OP and two, stealth as a mechanic is too OP on thief and too accessible. (Also Smoke Screen, but I think that's more minor and a side-effect on the main issues)

 

 

Issue One - Shadow Arts - As a thief main, I hate to say it, but I agree. NOT BY MUCH, but I agree lol. It doesn't matter what build you're trying, meta or not, SA always has a place in your build. It's never not viable. Crit Strikes and Acro are rarely viable. Honestly, I'd go as far to say Acro is pretty much never really viable. SA is overloaded, almost everything in that spec is solid. Maybe Specters will use Merciful Ambush too. SA just may be an overloaded spec. However, it's also fun and good game design to have everything in a spec feel like it has it's place and I wish more so that other specs felt as good and impactful to play with.

 

I think Smoke Screen is probably tied to the SA issue too with Cloaked in Shadow. Then adding in Shadow Savior with Shadow Shot, the spec just begs thieves to play more into the annoying playstyle that everybody hates, which fuels the forum posts. 

 

Some SA ideas...

1. Rework idea for CiS would be to remove the 5.5 second blind from entering stealth, but make entering stealth siphon health as well as blinds, or maybe just heal and not siphon health.
2. I think Shadow Savior is something that may need to be revisited after we see Specter.
3. Swapping Shadow's Embrace with Concealing Restoration to have thieves make the choice between Hidden Thief or Concealing Restoration would be interesting.

 

 

Issue Two - Stealth - People are hating on stealth... This one I generally disagree with, this is what makes thief more fun and interesting IMO. However, most of these points are followed up with "You can reveal!" And the counterpoint "Thieves can remove reveal!" There are so many other ways to play against it and as a thief in stealth I feel like I have to think and make smart choices. I need to position myself at the back of a player, who's spinning around so I can't easily backstab, and they can block, blind, dodge, cc me (Nec fears, Ranger roots, Guard walls).  But, I generally think most of these complaints are targeted at Deadeye... but Deadeye isn't really considered meta, and I think nerfing stealth too broadly would inadvertently (and maybe unfairly) destroy the best and most rewarding aspect of thief.

 

Some stealth/Deadeye-deas

1. Nerf Shadow Meld - No longer removes Revealed. 
2. Nerf Silent Scope - No longer gives precision.
3. Buff Premeditation - Maybe 3% per boon.
4. Buff Renewing Gaze - The 3 second regen just isn't enough. Refreshing  your Mark should be included with Deadeye's Gaze IMO.

 

 

Issue Three - Acro - Instead of supplementing Acro, I think DD kind of killed it. I just does it better and focuses on dodges. I'm not sure what to do here, so I'd like to hear more opinions. But maybe DD should focus more on blocks, and Acro just needs some love and flavor - make the grandmaster DD traits the Acro traits, sprinkle the GM Acro traits throughout the spec, and rework the DD traits would be interesting.

 

 

 

Anyway, there's a part of me that thinks SA and Stealth might be more of an issue at lower ranks, I'm not high ranked by any means and I don't think I'm good, especially because I rarely win my 1v1s as a thief in G3 and I've used these cheese builds before lol. Also, usually thief guides I read or Vallun video I watch, all say generally not to 1v1 playing as thief, but I don't play at a high rank, so idk if this has been going on more lately in Plat+.

SA is problematic since its rework. It overloaded the traitline with life siphons, poisons, fear upon backstabbing the enemy... so now picking SA over D.A. means you barely lose any damage, but you gain significantly better survivability.
 

Want to fix SA? Get rid of the lifesteal and the poisons. There should be 0 offensive utility to that traitline, you could replace those traits with something that could make specter into a decent healer or something. Back in the day all SA did was give you enhanced reged/condicleanse while camping stealth, and conquest requiring you to NOT be in stealth to achive anything balanced the builds out.

Also your ideas to nerf/buff deadeye are just... NO. Just one example: Shadow Meld without the ability to remove revealed is just a vastly inferior version of an (untraited)https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blinding_Powder . We don't do elites that are worse than support skills.

[xblankk.4207]

1 hour ago, Bazsi.2734 said:

SA is problematic since its rework. It overloaded the traitline with life siphons, poisons, fear upon backstabbing the enemy... so now picking SA over D.A. means you barely lose any damage, but you gain significantly better survivability.
 

Want to fix SA? Get rid of the lifesteal and the poisons. There should be 0 offensive utility to that traitline, you could replace those traits with something that could make specter into a decent healer or something. Back in the day all SA did was give you enhanced reged/condicleanse while camping stealth, and conquest requiring you to NOT be in stealth to achive anything balanced the builds out.

Also your ideas to nerf/buff deadeye are just... NO. Just one example: Shadow Meld without the ability to remove revealed is just a vastly inferior version of an (untraited)https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blinding_Powder . We don't do elites that are worse than support skills.

Yeah, I generally agree with everything you said. The only thing that irks me a little is when I played Specter one of my main complaints was that SA and Trickery felt almost mandatory picks, but I do agree that it should synergize and compliment Specter. Leaning more into that makes sense, however, I hope Specter is something that will see a little more versatility regarding spec choices.

Someone else called me out on the big Shadow Meld nerf too, and I agree with you here as well. It only came from the other threads complaining that removing revealed counters stealth counter play, so it shouldn't exist. I can empathize with that, and I wasn't sure how to buff it otherwise. But you're right, it makes look worse than Blinding Powder.

 

Thanks for the input dude!

[Crab Fear.1624]

Shadow arts should be the trait that is a must pick for scepter if you want to be support.

Remove the poison and siphons from SA and put those into deadly arts or something, like panic strike is old news and good riddance.