Give Rewards for WVW players starting with EOD

[rrusse.7058]

Well unfortunately, what players are rewarded with is the final step in this long and drawn out saga we call the Alliances update.

First the Alliances need to go gold, then Arenanet needs to adjust how players are rewarded, then finally they can look at the what players are being rewarded with.

Everything in steps. Hopefully those steps come sooner than later.

[Cyprien.4208]

It's not really had to keep a PvE player out of WvW. I can say most of the time they don't want to be in there to being with. The only reason they have to go within the area is for things they can't get anywhere else. While there may be other options for some things like legendary for some it may be simpler to go after Conflux than Coalescence or such as legendary armor vs trying to clear a raid.

If their goal is not forcing people to do content they don't like then they need to offer methods to get the same rewards in each method of game modes they offer aka PvE, WvW, PvP. If they want to force people to play a mode; then they need to offer unique things which will want to cause people to play the mode.

You can't simply remove rewards as that would kill the game mode. Yes, I understand some die hard players say they are only in it for the battle which is fine, but if you don't reward people for their time they will go somewhere else. You also got to remember most MMO revolve around PVE content as more casual players only like to focus on that. PvP & WvW wouldn't sustain a large player base unless that's the only thing the game focused on and built for it.

[TheGrimm.5624]

On 2/16/2022 at 6:35 PM, Infusion.7149 said:

If you aim for PVE level rewards all it does it attract PvE players that are solely there for rewards. 

 

I see this one too many times here. We are all here for rewards. Its just that we all see what's rewarding as different. It may not be liquid gold but a kill is still a reward, taking Stonemist is a reward, achievo's are awards, Lego armor is a reward. I agree with some of the above that WvW should have more parity in its rewards as other game modes and unique rewards even though as we saw with the Warclaw it will draw people in that haven't been here. But that's a good thing.

More PvE players is more players. A lot of people here are PvXers. To me, that's good. That means more of everything we already have. After playing some will zerg, some will join large group/Warband play, some will run in havocs, some will even find they like to roam. The type of player referred to is already here.

I can spin your argument if you like. So are we really saying we only want people that will pull out their credit card to play this game mode to be playing this game mode? Because that's how it sounds from the side that are saying they want parity in play time.

WvW is just now in state where we don't have to leave it to be able to play it, but it doesn't mean we have to be anti-reward for all things people find that draws them to waste time in a time sync that MMOs are. They are meant to entertain, why does one person's version of entertainment supersedes another? If you feel its rewarding enough, good for you, but that doesn't mean it's not for others that say it's not.

That's not even covering the differences in how much players spend on in game currency for whatever activities they choose in WvW. Take a player that will just get to exotic and stop versus a player that will go full lego. Take a player that will only run in a zerg and share nothing with their driver versus the amount the driver might spend in creating guild siege or buying it from the TP. Take a roamer that doesn't attack structures versus the havoc that may use more siege than the zerg because they have to be faster in their takes else get run over. And again I agree with what's said before that's all choice. If a player chooses to return more liquid rewards they make to use higher end gear/equipment that means they spend more so one's person we are flooded with rewards may not be the same story to another. So if you are fine already, all good, but I could see where others may say they are not. Been there when we had to leave the game mode to pay for the game mode and don't want to see anyone have to jump modes to pay for this one, if they choose to spend time elsewhere then I hope they do it for an entertaining or rewarding reason. WvW is and should be endgame content but I think players should be able to grow up in game here too even if they will be at a disadvantage. But that could be the Warhammer player in me where we could at level 1 start in WvW and play all the way to end game content in the mode.

[Gorani.7205]

Well, does the OP of this thread want to get people joining the franchise with EoD to join WvW? or does he want better rewards in general?
Sadly, both wishes will be denied by Anet.
First, there will very likely nothing added to WvW when EoD comes out next week, perhaps not even new reward tracks (repeatable or non repeatable for better Clover gains).
Second, I think Anet was also quite clear about finishing Alliances first and then working on ideas for a reward overhaul, so nothing will happen until ... summer 2022 (if we are very very lucky)?
I don't want to sound like a parrot, saying the same stuff over and over again here, but ideas for a fairer distribution of rewards and what now useless WvW tokens can be used for to level the field, but perhaps we have to keep reminding the developers about that for 2022 and beyond.

Edited February 21, 2022 by Gorani.7205

[Infusion.7149]

2 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

 

I see this one too many times here. We are all here for rewards. Its just that we all see what's rewarding as different. It may not be liquid gold but a kill is still a reward, taking Stonemist is a reward, achievo's are awards, Lego armor is a reward. I agree with some of the above that WvW should have more parity in its rewards as other game modes and unique rewards even though as we saw with the Warclaw it will draw people in that haven't been here. But that's a good thing.

More PvE players is more players. A lot of people here are PvXers. To me, that's good. That means more of everything we already have. After playing some will zerg, some will join large group/Warband play, some will run in havocs, some will even find they like to roam. The type of player referred to is already here.

I can spin your argument if you like. So are we really saying we only want people that will pull out their credit card to play this game mode to be playing this game mode? Because that's how it sounds from the side that are saying they want parity in play time.

WvW is just now in state where we don't have to leave it to be able to play it, but it doesn't mean we have to be anti-reward for all things people find that draws them to waste time in a time sync that MMOs are. They are meant to entertain, why does one person's version of entertainment supersedes another? If you feel its rewarding enough, good for you, but that doesn't mean it's not for others that say it's not.

That's not even covering the differences in how much players spend on in game currency for whatever activities they choose in WvW. Take a player that will just get to exotic and stop versus a player that will go full lego. Take a player that will only run in a zerg and share nothing with their driver versus the amount the driver might spend in creating guild siege or buying it from the TP. Take a roamer that doesn't attack structures versus the havoc that may use more siege than the zerg because they have to be faster in their takes else get run over. And again I agree with what's said before that's all choice. If a player chooses to return more liquid rewards they make to use higher end gear/equipment that means they spend more so one's person we are flooded with rewards may not be the same story to another. So if you are fine already, all good, but I could see where others may say they are not. Been there when we had to leave the game mode to pay for the game mode and don't want to see anyone have to jump modes to pay for this one, if they choose to spend time elsewhere then I hope they do it for an entertaining or rewarding reason. WvW is and should be endgame content but I think players should be able to grow up in game here too even if they will be at a disadvantage. But that could be the Warhammer player in me where we could at level 1 start in WvW and play all the way to end game content in the mode.

I do fractals, strikes, raid, and PVP all of which are considered endgame content. In fact fractals finance WVW. We are far past original state of WVW where you are at a net loss of liquidity by participating in WVW and you admit that yourself. You don't spend gold to repair gear or upgrade structures and there is ascended food that more or less cuts spending down to utility and siege which is no longer more than a gold each (superior catas for example are 4 silvers) and also comes in skirmish chests / at testimonies vendor.
I leveled a mesmer to 80 in WVW in the core game and this is before chrono so there was no AOE to rely on.

If we go with your mindset then someone who is 10K WVW rank with every WVW achievement is there for bags worth 2 silver? Is that what you're getting at? Because it seems to me longterm people play WVW more like they would a non-progression game where rewards are not retained such as an autobattler, MOBA, RTS, or FPS (Especially for people roaming on deadeye or longbow ranger). Taking a T3 fortified structure for example is meaningless rewards-wise unless you want to define rewards as feelings.

Also there isn't reward parity even within WVW as you stated. If I go roam for example I will get way less resources outside of skirmish tracks. The same goes for if I play minstrel support scrapper over something that vomits AOE.

I don't understand the idea that people don't want to "leave WVW to play WVW". You must have a level 60+ character to enter WVW , even if the character you are is not, and level 80 boosts only existed since 2016 **. People that have the mentality you can just saunter into WVW day one instantly are in the credit card mindset anyway. Most of those instant level 80 ticket users fail hard even in PVE (see all threads saying they used it "by accident" despite multiple warning screens), they will just be in for a rude awakening in WVW unless it's an alt account. The rest of everyone gets tangible progression toward ascended/legendary armor, mystic clovers (albeit this could be raised), a set of mistforged weapon skins, as well as the legendary ring Conflux.  This is what I mean by unique rewards: until Conflux came around non-WVW people only came for the warclaw and that wasn't enough to keep them playing.

** If you don't believe me you can check the release date of the Level 80 ticket:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Black_Lion_Instant_Level_80_Ticket
as well as the Arenanet guide video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IbMbGG1lOU

If people are only in the mindset of rewards then you end up with Obsidian Sanctum kill-trading and karma-training. When I say I am against rewards that make it overly attractive to PVE players that want to "farm WVW" this is what I mean. If you pay attention to my posts in this subsection of the forum (or even in this thread) I have long supported incremental improvements to the reward system that help people getting started in the mode such as reducing mastery levels required for max masteries , emblem to clover vendors with a cap to equalize roam/zerging, memories of battle in WVW daily chests, getting rid of grandmaster mark shards and replacing them with the marks themselves, etc. It's exactly the same as for PVE where I supported ascended weapon boxes as part of living story for people to be more equipped for end content such as strikes/raids/fractals but was opposed to dumbing down of PVE legendary armor to openworld.

To that end, the goal of WVW design should be "is it fun?" Not "how rewarding is it?" There's plenty of apathy because "winning doesn't matter" and it matters even less with the linking system.

Edited February 19, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Cyninja.2954]

1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

To that end, the goal of WVW design should be "is it fun?" Not "how rewarding is it?"

 

Very well said. +1

[Fizz.9384]

I'm in favor of improving WvW rewards in literally any capacity the devs decide. Lots of WvW vets don't seem to understand that rewards/loot are part of what makes content fun. That's why the fractal CM crowd was complaining about mystic coin rolls being removed from boss loot. Many of them enjoy CMs, but the chances for mystic coin loot just adds to the fun.

PvE players who don't really want to do WvW are mainly there to farm GoB and skirmish tickets. GoB isn't too bad since it doesn't take a crazy amount of time to complete the reward track, but getting enough skirmish tickets for the legendary ring or armor takes an absurd amount of time (even compared to other legendaries) for players who don't want to play WvW exclusively. I think Anet could adjust the rate that skirmish tickets are earned, or allow you to exchange other currencies for skirmish tickets (and vice versa) to allow you to play a larger variety of game modes while still making some progress toward legendaries and other rewards. If we use legendary insights as an example, you can earn at most 25 LI per week from raids, and up to 365 skirmish tickets per week from WvW. That converts to about 15 tickets for every 1 LI per week. So I would suggest a vendor where you could exchange LI for skirmish tickets and vice versa at a rate of 1 LI per 15 tickets, and maybe cap that at 365 tickets or 25 LI max per week. Currency exhcnages like this could give PvE players the option to do more PvE, WvW players the option to do more WvW, and dedicated WvW vets won't have to deal with as many bad PvE players who really don't want to be there.

[Littlekenny.4196]

16 hours ago, Gorani.7205 said:

First, there will very likely nothing added to WvW when EoD comes out next week, perhaps not even new reward tracks (repeatable or non repeatable for better Clover gains).

I hadn't considered that there could be new reward tracks that pay better locked behind the EoD paywall. Now I'm a little concerned.

 

15 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

I don't understand the idea that people don't want to "leave WVW to play WVW". You must have a level 60+ character to enter WVW , even if the character you are is not, and level 80 boosts only existed since 2016 **. 

It's level 31 if you bought the game but idk when that was introduced. I have 1 character which leveled mostly in PvE and has world completion, then the rest entered WvW within the first 10 levels and leveled there. The reason I wouldn't want to leave WvW is because I would rather play a different game than do any non-WvW mode in this game. I would also prefer to just not play any game than play something that isn't WvW.

[Gorani.7205]

3 hours ago, Littlekenny.4196 said:

I hadn't considered that there could be new reward tracks that pay better locked behind the EoD paywall. Now I'm a little concerned.

We always had non repeatable tracks that gave more than the two Mystic Clovers we get from the "normal" tracks (although most of them had been living story tracks) with 6 -14 Clovers from finishing that particular track (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mystic_Clover)

[Infusion.7149]

10 hours ago, Littlekenny.4196 said:

I hadn't considered that there could be new reward tracks that pay better locked behind the EoD paywall. Now I'm a little concerned.

 

It's level 31 if you bought the game but idk when that was introduced. I have 1 character which leveled mostly in PvE and has world completion, then the rest entered WvW within the first 10 levels and leveled there. The reason I wouldn't want to leave WvW is because I would rather play a different game than do any non-WvW mode in this game. I would also prefer to just not play any game than play something that isn't WvW.

The level change probably occurred when GW2 turned free to play.
If you are just in WVW then I don't know what to tell you other than what are you using the resources you obtain for?

Triumphant Hero armor is available from reward tracks if you don't want to get stat select armor from elsewhere, mist trinkets, mistforged weapons or exotics off TP, and the legendaries afterwards cover all level 80 players. The only thing you really need to exit WVW for if you only WVW is PVE completion for gen2 legendary weapons and trinkets. Gen1 weapons and gen 3 will be on TP. You can get full ascended armor and weapons by crafting in Armistice Bastion as well but that would require spending gold.
In short:

• Armor: exotic / ascended is obtainable until you buy legendary for tickets, I have long suggested grandmaster mark shards disappear in place of marks themselves
• Weapons: exotics can be obtained off TP or craft ascended if you don't have tickets for the WVW specific Mistforged or PVP-shared mist lord's
• Trinkets: mist trinkets and amulet , also legendary WVW ring
• Backpiece: WVW Specific warbringer and precursor steps

If someone is below level 80 then rewards should be the least of the worries as you are a detriment to your team especially if you are below 60 and it's not as though you could be farming T4 fractals/raids/strikes below 80. It used to be you can play with siege or whatnot before HoT but the difference between elite specs and core specs is enormous for most classes. Below level 60 the scaling is extremely poor due to traitlines and you aren't able to use superior runes. All elite specs require level 80 and the only strong core profession in WVW currently is arguably core guardian and possibly core warrior if you want to run tactics. A two traitline revenant for example would not be nearly as effective as herald, although not useless as core ranger.
 

Edited February 20, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Gorem.8104]

On 2/20/2022 at 6:04 AM, Cyninja.2954 said:

 

Very well said. +1

Not really, It really doesn't need to be the least rewarding activity in game. It might be the most fun for some but then that ends up being the only reason anyone does it. It would be great to have fun and be rewarded while doing so. Fact is, you can get nearly the same rewards as someone actively playing wvw whose taking keeps and towers, by just afk capping camps outside of spawn. 

If anything, they need to largely improve the rewards you get for actively playing wvw. When you tick a defence event, it should knock a minute off the timer to your next tick. Taking a keep could be a full tick's worth, or half a tick, and a tower also be about a minute with diminishing returns if you keep taking the same towers/keeps to prevent farming outside of bases. 

Look at that, I just instantly improved wvw Rewards for actively playing in a second of thought, quicker then Anet has done for years. AND I did not even need to nerf anything like they do with them nerfing siege use and wall repair so you can't get rewards for actively playing that way. 
It is really not that hard Anet, no idea why you seem to be so terrible at this. 

[Infusion.7149]

1 hour ago, Gorem.8104 said:

Not really, It really doesn't need to be the least rewarding activity in game. It might be the most fun for some but then that ends up being the only reason anyone does it. It would be great to have fun and be rewarded while doing so. Fact is, you can get nearly the same rewards as someone actively playing wvw whose taking keeps and towers, by just afk capping camps outside of spawn. 

If anything, they need to largely improve the rewards you get for actively playing wvw. When you tick a defence event, it should knock a minute off the timer to your next tick. Taking a keep could be a full tick's worth, or half a tick, and a tower also be about a minute with diminishing returns if you keep taking the same towers/keeps to prevent farming outside of bases. 

Look at that, I just instantly improved wvw Rewards for actively playing in a second of thought, quicker then Anet has done for years. AND I did not even need to nerf anything like they do with them nerfing siege use and wall repair so you can't get rewards for actively playing that way. 
It is really not that hard Anet, no idea why you seem to be so terrible at this. 

That would only mean something to someone that doesn't max diamond every week?

Imagine fun being the reason someone plays a game. Amazing.

[TheGrimm.5624]

1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

That would only mean something to someone that doesn't max diamond every week?

Imagine fun being the reason someone plays a game. Amazing.

 

Its the weekend so I was doing more gaming than forum wars so I apologize for the delayed responses and will get replies out tomorrow. Fun and rewarding are the same to some and also not mutually exclusive. I would say rewards and rewarding are also not the same as rewards means to be granted something where as rewarding is a feeling of time well spent via various factors. Will get more details out on the morrow. Infusion, I don't disagree with some points you made but I don't think WvW should be a pay to play mode for those that are new to it, even if older vets had to do that. Rewards in WvW should be in par with time spent elsewhere in regards to mats, liquid gold and currencies, and have it's own unique goals to chase. Just like fractals the goal of WvW should be more WvW just like in fractals the goal is to be able to do more fractals. More on this tomorrow after the addiction to pay bills is covered. Good gaming!

[TheGrimm.5624]

On 2/19/2022 at 3:04 PM, Cyninja.2954 said:

 

Very well said. +1

 

Fun can be rewarding but that will vary by player. I am 13k hours into the game so I can have fun having a warband of 24 players chase my havoc of 6 around a map since I know we are wasting their time but we are getting nothing and ok with it.  But at the same is it fair to tell new players, which we want, that it would easier and pay more to go just run PvE? Why do we do that? Like all MMO players we need goals that are fun and feel like they are worth their time. In case of those that haven't spent as long in the game mode we should give them more rewarding game play, which might include rewards. Vets were already used to the mode as a gold sync, new player see it still as such  even if its better than it was. Us vets need to get off our high horse and not do the old peep bit of 'well in my day we had to walk up hill to school both ways'. We need more players, we need to stop denying you can pay for other game modes by WvWing. We need WvW for new players to play be rewarding and pays rewards in par as other game modes. And as in all endgame content, we need unique goals for WvWers to want to have to says should I WvW, sPvP, Raid, or Fractal. What do I find fun, rewarding and will give the rewards to progress.

[Cyninja.2954]

3 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

 

Fun can be rewarding but that will vary by player. I am 13k hours into the game so I can have fun having a warband of 24 players chase my havoc of 6 around a map since I know we are wasting their time but we are getting nothing and ok with it.  But at the same is it fair to tell new players, which we want, that it would easier and pay more to go just run PvE? Why do we do that? Like all MMO players we need goals that are fun and feel like they are worth their time. In case of those that haven't spent as long in the game mode we should give them more rewarding game play, which might include rewards. Vets were already used to the mode as a gold sync, new player see it still as such  even if its better than it was. Us vets need to get off our high horse and not do the old peep bit of 'well in my day we had to walk up hill to school both ways'. We need more players, we need to stop denying you can pay for other game modes by WvWing. We need WvW for new players to play be rewarding and pays rewards in par as other game modes. And as in all endgame content, we need unique goals for WvWers to want to have to says should I WvW, sPvP, Raid, or Fractal. What do I find fun, rewarding and will give the rewards to progress.

 

This isn't about vets or no vets or players being new to a part of the game or not.

The WvW game mode was the healthiest back when there was a net negative return on playing the mode. The olden days when playing WvW actually COST player gold. There was certainly no need for incentives other than:"you like it? Play it."

We have come along way since then and WvW, even as others might claim that it is unrewarding, is in fact rewarding compared to a lot of PvE content. A casual non min- maxing player playing WvW will have a safe and higher gold/hour yield than any casual non min-maxing player running around in the open world.

On the topic of rewards: the most common theme here is also not about rewards, it's about 1 reward: skirmish tickets. 99% of the time it's only "I want more skirmish tickets", "how do I get more skirmish tickets?", "this mode should reward more skirmish tickets!" most often by player who in fact do NOT enjoy the mode but simply want the rewards asap. Even if they enjoy the mode, their main and likely only drive to participate is this 1 reward, likely for legendary gear. That's NOT something that needs attention (and honestly, I believe the developers are currently confident and fine with the skirmish ticket per week cap). It would be far better to add unique rewards instead of speeding up current rewards in this case.

There is a multitude of reasons why players play something, rewards are 1 of those reasons and there are many more. Ironically, rewards and reward gain over time spent increases have very often a detrimental effect on most of the other reasons why players gravitate to content and they can and will shape how player approach the content. Farm down the meta event asap, use proper classes, maximize return per hour, etc. Even more ironic is that the idea of playing something "for fun" is of less value than "how much stuff can I get per hour" to some.

Let's take the recent idea from Gorem.8104 about rewarding flipping of keeps or defending with timer decreases of pip ticks. Sounds good on paper right? Now take a moment and consider what this change actually encourages behavior wise: more defending and flipping right? Wrong.Unless absolutely equal in return, and that is impossible to achieve by the very nature of one being a 1 time event, the other being a recurring event, the incentive here is to find which of either rewards the most pips per hour, then do that over and over. Think karma trains are bad now, take a guess how this would affect them.

I'm not against increasing rewards for WvW (if we are talking about rewards, not only skirmish tickets). I am against increasing the incorrect incentives, which in turn means increasing rewards in a way that benefits the game mode and ideally not in a way which just invites the locust of reward farmers for a set period of time.

Edited February 21, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Infusion.7149]

Exactly. Any time someone mentions faster skirmish tickets I question their real motive. If it were say a memories of battle "liquid" reward for capping a T3 keep when there is even numbers per side or something that would be more in line with added rewards for activity. The problem with that is it only awards attackers.

Also emblems already exist whereas any additional messing about skirmish tracks beyond just handing out pips is prone to bugs or abuse. The majority of reward tracks (not skirmish tracks) value is mystic clovers not the random trash you get. Therefore an emblem to clover capped vendor would make the most sense.