More Info on Strike Missions, Balance, and Rewards in End of Dragons

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

3 minutes ago, aeris.5846 said:

I don't speak about being good or not. Just to be able to go in training.

My friend. T1-T4 progression is your training.

[aeris.5846]

1 minute ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

My friend. T1-T4 progression is your training.

No. It's not training. It's not the kind of training raids or strike are. Not the same boss, same mecanic. Not the same rewards if you kill your training or your real content. Just completely different kind of training.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

8 minutes ago, aeris.5846 said:

No. It's not training. It's not the kind of training raids or strike are.

Yes it is training. It's a training mode by virtue of its design.  It's supposed to introduce you to the mechanics in small amounts bit by bit up until  you take them on at higher fractal levels.  Then CM is supposed to be a step further than T4.

[Wintermute.5408]

nevermind

Edited February 19, 2022 by Wintermute.5408

[aeris.5846]

3 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

Yes it is training. It's a training mode by virtue of its design.  It's supposed to introduce you to the mechanics in small amounts bit by bit up until  you take them on at higher fractal levels.  Then CM is supposed to be a step further than T4.

Yeah, it's different training. And probably exactly what should be done for other HL content. But because it's the only mode with that kind of training, and so requiring more time, more engagement, more gold, to achieve the final level and daily loot maximum possible, it definitively must be more rewarding than the other content. That's exactly the topic.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

4 minutes ago, aeris.5846 said:

Yeah, it's different training. And probably exactly what should be done for other HL content. But because it's the only mode with that kind of training, and so requiring more time, more engagement, more gold, to achieve the final level and daily loot maximum possible, it definitively must be more rewarding than the other content. That's exactly the topic.

Did you uh, miss the part where strikes where supposed to be the stepping stones to raids when they were introduced with IBS?  Could you imagine if T1 fractals were more rewarding than CMs+T4s?

[Banryuu.2156]

13 minutes ago, aeris.5846 said:

Yeah, it's different training. And probably exactly what should be done for other HL content. But because it's the only mode with that kind of training, and so requiring more time, more engagement, more gold, to achieve the final level and daily loot maximum possible, it definitively must be more rewarding than the other content. That's exactly the topic.

6 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

Did you uh, miss the part where strikes where supposed to be the stepping stones to raids when they were introduced with IBS?  Could you imagine if T1 fractals were more rewarding than CMs+T4s?

Aren't you two talking about the same thing right now? Both of you are telling that CMs+T4s should be more rewarding.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

2 minutes ago, Banryuu.2156 said:

Aren't you two talking about the same thing right now? Both of you are telling that CMs+T4s should be more rewarding.

I think they're either ignoring the fact that I said that T4s+CMs should be more rewarding or just being outright malicious with their misinterpretation.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

On 2/18/2022 at 4:04 AM, Izzy.2951 said:

 

Either you havent read the post, or you just dont understand stuff. To get a full strike ascended set you will need ageeeeeeeees right now, and it will be only the armor (and theres what little rng drop with random stats?), raids are unacesible without ascended/legendary and much more things idk why you even mention that. Dungeons do not give you ascended gear either. And what about the +9infusions? XXX gold that you also dont get from strikes neither from dungeons, neither from raids (again unacesible content)

And again and again, puting all the good stuff ONLY in fractals T4/CMs, is not a good thing for new/returnee players that dont have x2 ascended gears with +9 infusions. And all the rest of instanced content as i mentioned in the post b4 are useless regarding getting rewards/ascended (gear progression) items and INFUSIONS.

Either you don't know what you're talking about, or you're being purposefully and maliciously ignorant of how the reward structure works and what's actually required of you in raids, Strikes, and Fractals.

Raids and Strikes have no gear requirement, but it's suggested that you come with the following:

1. Gear that matches your build
2. A cohesive build for your traits
3. Experience playing your class/role.  (DPS achieving at least 80% of benchmark, Supports' boons having an uptime of 85-95%, tanks knowing mechanics.)

Fractals has the above and one additional thing; Agony resistance requirements for certain fractal levels to avoid getting oneshot by agony.  Almost all instances of agony, however,  can be avoided if you know what you're doing as a player.

Read that bolded part again.

for certain fractal levels

Suggested Agony Resistance recommendations go up to:

1. 150 at the end of T4
2. 106 at the end of T3
3. 61 the end of at T2
4. 17 at the end of T1

You can easily get 106 agony resistance without armor and you also get a boatload of +1 infusions from fractals.   So many that, in a week of t4s, you'd have enough for 3-5  +9s alone.
 

[aeris.5846]

3 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

You can easily get 106 agony resistance without armor and you also get a boatload of +1 infusions from fractals.   So many that, in a week of t4s, you'd have enough for 3-5  +9s alone.

Are you really comparing raid/strike (at least bone & woj "hard" ones) with t1-t3 or even t4 frac?
Let's compare what is comparable please. In term of difficulty and in terms of rewards.

You can only compare raids with CMs, in term of rewards & difficulty.
Strike difficulty equivalent to T1 if not openworld for simple ones, T4 if not T3 for the 2 hard ones. And with no comparable rewards at the end, barely T1-T3 loot mostly nothing compare to daily FC strikes, things only start to be interesting with T4 and really interesting with CMs.

[aeris.5846]

28 minutes ago, aeris.5846 said:

Let's compare what is comparable please. In term of difficulty and in terms of rewards.

To be honest/clear:
- Raid is ~45min/wing (5-10h/week), ~20gph, 80% SC DPS check, critical full squad comp (might/regen/fury/alac/quick/heal/aegis/stab over 2 sub), + tank & mecanics for some people, exo gear
- Simple strike is 15min, ~30gph, no DPS check, no comp awareness, no gear
- Bone/woj 5g more for 10min, ~30gph, 50% SC DPS check, not critical basic squad comp (only alac, quick, might), no gear
- T1 is 20-30min, 15gph, no DPS check, no comp, no gear
- T2 is 20-30min, 20gph, no DPS check, no comp, no gear
- T3 is 20-30min, 20gph, no DPS check, no comp, no gear but ascended trinket
- T4 is 20-40min, 25-30gph, 60% SC DPS check, not critical basic comp (might/quick/alac, some heal), full ascended gear
- CMs is 45min-1h, (5-10h/week), 50gph, 80% SC DPS check, critical comp (might/quick/alac/fury/stab/aegis/heal), full ascended gear

Edited February 20, 2022 by aeris.5846

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

1 hour ago, aeris.5846 said:

Are you really comparing raid/strike (at least bone & woj "hard" ones) with t1-t3 or even t4 frac?

Can you please explain tot me what my point is, or are you going to continually pretend I have this vendetta against fractals being rewarding?

[aeris.5846]

3 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

Can you please explain tot me what my point is, or are you going to continually pretend I have this vendetta against fractals being rewarding?

You refuse to consider you have to invest 1 year and 500g to do CMs, and you say that content doesn't require full ascended, and also you say it's the same engagement than in raid or strike. So don't understand at all your point to ask for more rewards with such opinion… 🤷‍♂️

[Obtena.7952]

2 hours ago, aeris.5846 said:

You refuse to consider you have to invest 1 year and 500g to do CMs, and you say that content doesn't require full ascended, and also you say it's the same engagement than in raid or strike. So don't understand at all your point to ask for more rewards with such opinion… 🤷‍♂️

This is fair ...  Fractals in general are a WAY higher level of investment for a player than raids/strikes can EVER be, even if you want to exclude the time for learning the various encounters.

But I think the relevant perspective here is that this investment is actually a massive strike against Fractals being continually supported as endgame content in a game targeting casual players. I would even go so far as to say that Fractals are the worst endgame content we have in this game (this would take a whole thread to argue the point) and it's GOOD that Anet is taking measures to direct players to content they are committing to devote development to. 

Edited February 20, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Banryuu.2156]

4 hours ago, aeris.5846 said:

- Raid is ~45min/wing (5-10h/week)

We do wing 1-7 full clears in 3-4 hours, depends on who joins and how focused everyone.

The recent record is under 2 hours, so our clears aren't nearly as optimized for fast clear, more safety included.

But if you are joining PUGs then ~45 min/wing seems okay.

 

4 hours ago, aeris.5846 said:

- CMs is 45min-1h, (5-10h/week)

CMs+T4s are 1h, only CMs are like half an hour.

[Bakeneko.5826]

20 hours ago, aeris.5846 said:

To be honest/clear:
- Raid is ~45min/wing (5-10h/week), ~20gph, 80% SC DPS check, critical full squad comp (might/regen/fury/alac/quick/heal/aegis/stab over 2 sub), + tank & mecanics for some people, exo gear
- Simple strike is 15min, ~30gph, no DPS check, no comp awareness, no gear
- Bone/woj 5g more for 10min, ~30gph, 50% SC DPS check, not critical basic squad comp (only alac, quick, might), no gear
- T1 is 20-30min, 15gph, no DPS check, no comp, no gear
- T2 is 20-30min, 20gph, no DPS check, no comp, no gear
- T3 is 20-30min, 20gph, no DPS check, no comp, no gear but ascended trinket
- T4 is 20-40min, 25-30gph, 60% SC DPS check, not critical basic comp (might/quick/alac, some heal), full ascended gear
- CMs is 45min-1h, (5-10h/week), 50gph, 80% SC DPS check, critical comp (might/quick/alac/fury/stab/aegis/heal), full ascended gear

Only DPS check in CM is 99CM first boss, there are no more dps checks, no idea what you atelking about there. Also, CM run is not 1h, its 30-ish minutes. T4 is sub 30 with even avg. group. Also, T4 only are ±35 g/h, CMs are around the same, fast guild did calculations already

[aeris.5846]

16 hours ago, Banryuu.2156 said:

We do wing 1-7 full clears in 3-4 hours, depends on who joins and how focused everyone.

But if you are joining PUGs then ~45 min/wing seems okay.

I do mine in 5h too usually. I speak more about pug yes

16 hours ago, Banryuu.2156 said:

CMs+T4s are 1h, only CMs are like half an hour.

Yes, I speak about a full standard run, so CM+T4.

[aeris.5846]

50 minutes ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

Only DPS check in CM is 99CM first boss, there are no more dps checks, no idea what you atelking about there. Also, CM run is not 1h, its 30-ish minutes. T4 is sub 30 with even avg. group. Also, T4 only are ±35 g/h, CMs are around the same, fast guild did calculations already

I speak about DPS check for an expectable smooth run, not a real hard DPS check like gorseval for example.
Without a decent DPS, you will have more mecanics (i think about 100cm for example, correct DPS = no orb phase), your group will eat much more damage (i think about viirastra, mama, siaxx…) and chance of a wipe go very high.

At least on simple strikes, you could drink a tea at the foot's boss without real consequences.

Edited February 21, 2022 by aeris.5846

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

20 hours ago, aeris.5846 said:

You refuse to consider you have to invest 1 year and 500g to do CMs, and you say that content doesn't require full ascended, and also you say it's the same engagement than in raid or strike. So don't understand at all your point to ask for more rewards with such opinion… 🤷‍♂️

You don't seem to get that you'll have to invest about the same amount of time (If not more) to get consistent full clears in raids.  Consistent, expedient full clears is where the money is in raids.

 

Quote

  and you say that content doesn't require full ascended, and also you say it's the same engagement than in raid or strike. So don't understand at all your point to ask for more rewards with such opinion… 🤷‍♂️ 

T4s require full ascended.  T3s require just weapons and Trinkets. T2s just trinkets. T1s nothing but exotics and a comprehensive build.  You don't need full ascended until you start going through T4s.  You also seem to have this idea that you could, as a newbie, just jump into raids?  you really can't.  You'd still have to spend so much time progressing and learning mechanics, practicing your rotation, etc.  The investment is more in improving player skill and knowledge and less in gear, though the gear investment is still there (Ascended Trinkets+Weapons come highly recommended for raids.)

Edited February 21, 2022 by Sir Alymer.3406

[aeris.5846]

32 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

You don't seem to get that you'll have to invest about the same amount of time (If not more) to get consistent full clears in raids.  Consistent, expedient full clears is where the money is in raids.

No. That's not the point. The point is I can start training raids in karma exotic gear and catch the maximum possible loot in weekly FC (even if I probably will be carried) the same day I hit lvl 80.
I can't do that with CMs. Even after training for a consistent 45min clear in CMs, it will take 258 days to catch the maximum loot possible.

I don't speak about consistent full clear CMs or raids. And even for this, CMs harder.
Carrying 1-2 ppl on a 10 raid squad is largely easier if not noticable at all than carrying a single people in a 5 group in CMs.

Basically in raid, 5 experienced ppl can carry 5 totally new people in wing 1-4 and clear 6 bosses in one evening.
In CMs, even 1 unexperienced ppl is hard to carry by 4 experienced ppl (hello red, cc, one shot mecanics, split, hard insta and so more).

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

2 minutes ago, aeris.5846 said:

No. That's not the point. The point is I can start training raids in karma exotic gear and catch the maximum possible loot in weekly FC (even if I probably will be carried) the same day I hit lvl 80.
I can't do that with CMs. Even after training for a consistent 45min clear in CMs, it will take 258 days to catch the maximum loot possible.

No, you can't do that with raids either.  The group that  will carry a noob through full clears is an exception, not a rule.

[aeris.5846]

43 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

you could, as a newbie, just jump into raids?  you really can't

You can. I organize training raids for that.

https://dps.report/zh7x-20210116-221007_cairn
https://dps.report/0g5s-20210116-221930_mo
https://dps.report/rmgU-20210116-222830_sam

Some experienced player, half the squad totally new in raid just picked up from LA even with kitten stuff.

And no problem.

[The Boz.2038]

Fractals can be completed with 4 people. 
All of them.
Even the CMs.
So yeah, you can totally get into one and get carried. 

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

10 minutes ago, aeris.5846 said:

You can. I organize training raids for that.

https://dps.report/zh7x-20210116-221007_cairn
https://dps.report/0g5s-20210116-221930_mo
https://dps.report/rmgU-20210116-222830_sam

Some experienced player, half the squad totally new in raid just picked up from LA even with kitten stuff.

And no problem.

Training isn't the full clears you need for profit, friend.  It's akin to the t1-t4 progression you'd have to do in fractals anyways.

Also, you can completely carry a bad  group in fractals with a good firebrand.

[Cyninja.2954]

23 minutes ago, aeris.5846 said:

You can. I organize training raids for that.

https://dps.report/zh7x-20210116-221007_cairn
https://dps.report/0g5s-20210116-221930_mo
https://dps.report/rmgU-20210116-222830_sam

Some experienced player, half the squad totally new in raid just picked up from LA even with kitten stuff.

And no problem.

 

A friend of mine returned to the game 2 months ago. Yes, he isn't fractal god or anything, which does cut into the gold/hour (which by its self takes years to recuperate the cost, so it is a bit disingenuous to pretend like fractal god increase your rewards. It literally is a net negative for like 2 years or so). All he needed was 1 set on a condi scrg to run T4+CMs., oh and 4 experienced players covering his slack and explaining to him what to do.

 

Same friend started running with a casual guild I'm part of raids pretty much full clearing W1-4, sometimes missing a few bosses or 1 wing, in 2 hours per week. Same thing: 5-6 experienced players with a few new guildies getting carried and trained.

 

In both cases it took at most days to get into either content or ready. In both cases it required experienced players to carry.

 

Showing off 3 logs from the probably easiest raid wing bosses while having 99% boons, 24 avrg might and 3-4 decent dps is hardly an argument that getting into raids is easier or harder than fractals.

 

Let' check shall LI/LD shall we (based on Cairn sorting):

top player: 600

2nd player: 656  (linked to a main account with over 2.5k)

3rd: 607

4th: 2k+

5th: 550+

6th: 645

7th: 250+ (linked to an account with almost 4k LI/LD)

8th: 170

9th: you 1.4k

10th: not linked to kp.me, died at 1.3 minutes into the fight

 

How is this in any way a proper representation of "new" raid players?

 

TL;DR:

Getting into fractal CMs or raids is neither harder or easier. It depends on how well connected players are and how fast they can adapt, learn and process information given by more experienced players. Return per hour is definitely higher in fractals, and safer, than raids.

Edited February 21, 2022 by Cyninja.2954