Virtuoso Weak Compared To Other Elite Specs?

[OriOri.8724]

8 hours ago, Hallow.7368 said:

That's good. Not liking it =/= bad. They gave basically every other new spec access to alac/quickness and mesmer already has 2 specs with alac and one of them has quickness too, it doesn't need another. It NEEDED this proper power spec. There are plenty of spots for pure dps specs in the game.

Just what? We weren't asking for another alacrity or quickness spec, so I don't know why you brought that up at all?

And as a pure DPS spec, virtuoso still does less damage than other specs that have actual utility on them too. It isn't even good at being pure DPS. And that doesn't address the fundamentally unfinished design it has.

 

I just wish ANet had talked to mesmer mains when designing it. Even if it was designed for non-mesmer mains to enjoy more, its mesmer mains who will be able to tell you what will and won't work, especially considering it has to have synergy with core mesmer

[Bobajob.7136]

I've been hitting highest damage and kills in pvp most games. Just have to stack might while kiting then hit hard when stunned. Easy insta kills. Group fights are fine if you can kite from a distance. Lots of shields and stuns.

Im running dagger/pistol and great sword power build. 

I can see why people may not like it because it's very hard and demanding spec if played skillfully.

PvE I've had no issues other than I miss my clones taking agroo but again if you can kite correctly it's not an issue. As said above it may not be the best Mesmer spec but Mesmer desperately needed a pure power spec. Every spec has it own uses and pros/cons.

It's not perfect but I'm loving it!

 

[Hirosama Nadasaki.6792]

11 hours ago, Hallow.7368 said:

It NEEDED this proper power spec. There are plenty of spots for pure dps specs in the game.

Too bad it does a bloody awful job at that.

[Hallow.7368]

14 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

What are you talking about mirage is pretty good in fractals, about one of only ahandful of elites you can bring into CM. 

For what? Alac? Rev has always been better especially after the countless nerfs to staff mirage. discretize has never acknowledged or even put out a build for mirage in fractals. technically you can bring whatever you want and the fractal is still clearable but mirage is like average at best considering the other alac option and the other condi options.

[Hallow.7368]

8 hours ago, OriOri.8724 said:

Just what? We weren't asking for another alacrity or quickness spec, so I don't know why you brought that up at all?

And as a pure DPS spec, virtuoso still does less damage than other specs that have actual utility on them too. It isn't even good at being pure DPS. And that doesn't address the fundamentally unfinished design it has.

 

I just wish ANet had talked to mesmer mains when designing it. Even if it was designed for non-mesmer mains to enjoy more, its mesmer mains who will be able to tell you what will and won't work, especially considering it has to have synergy with core mesmer

I never said you did. The guy I responded to said it has no boon output to which I said this class did not need a third alac spec or a second quickness spec. And I mean welcome to the world of weaver I guess? My first main and what got me addicted to this game was a pchrono. I still love pchrono and it's what I got my first ascended weapon for. To me virt feels fantastic. Quite squishy in solo content due to no clones, but to be fair I'm also in full berserkers with 3 damage traitlines. Virt could use maybe a little tuning but those classes you're talking about are pretty much just overpowered and that's all there is to it. The espec does not need any kind of redesign or new features though. There's supposedly a huge balance patch coming in the summer, so until then we don't know what direction anet have in mind. For all anyone knows virt's dps could be their ideal balance point for a pure dps and they'll hard nerf a bunch of other classes like they did with self sustain and some of scourge and firebrand for EoD launch.

[Hallow.7368]

13 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

That was in good ol'time. Now if you don't do damage, support, debuff, control and have good survivability you're no longer competitive. In a few year a character will even have to be able to make a coffee it's left hand for the player while dealing damage, supporting, disabling and not dying to anything to be a competitive character.

Yea maybe pre EoD.. did you see the nerfs that came with the expansion? Epidemic nerfed, dps scourge shield output nerfed by 55%, self sustain on classes gutted (good change), firebrand virtue refresh passive only restores 1 page instead of whole tome etc. It's likely nerfs on overloaded classes will continue. People suspected this long before EoD even released because there's a reason that like 80% of the EoD specs can't hold a candle to PoF and some HoT ones.

[Hallow.7368]

6 hours ago, Hirosama Nadasaki.6792 said:

Too bad it does a bloody awful job at that.

Too bad it knocked pchrono completely off of discretize's build page and therefore is now the only mesmer build on their build page .. 🙂 feel free to disagree it's not like it changes that it's the classes only proper power spec and that it's not nearly as bad as you seem to think.

[Levetty.1279]

54 minutes ago, Hallow.7368 said:

Too bad it knocked pchrono completely off of discretize's build page and therefore is now the only mesmer build on their build page .. 🙂 feel free to disagree it's not like it changes that it's the classes only proper power spec and that it's not nearly as bad as you seem to think.

Does anet pay you to come here and shill this terrible spec with half truths?

 

Seriously I don't know why we have an endless stream of trolls doing this, when one slows down another appears.

[Hallow.7368]

2 hours ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Does anet pay you to come here and shill this terrible spec with half truths?

 

Seriously I don't know why we have an endless stream of trolls doing this, when one slows down another appears.

I think your question is answered simply by the fact that you seem to think anyone with a differing opinion than you is a shill or a troll. Sucks to suck but some people enjoy the spec. Maybe one day you'll realize that the world doesn't revolve around you nor does the spec need to fit your requirements just because you main mesmer.

[Levetty.1279]

A simple yes would have saved some time.

[Luthan.5236]

Haven't tried it yet - but soon. My main is an engineer and I basically played only him most of the time. "Secondary main" a mesmer though - I wanted to be able to help with portals for other players if necessary. Played it through all other content and tried the older 2 elite specs where I liked the Chrono a bit more. (Feels sturdier with the ranged builds with greatsword.)

But then again: Really no real clue about deeper mechanis - just used a bit of recommended builds with minor modification.

How do you play Virtuoso? Focus on power? Conditions? Or maybe something mixed possible or something with celestial gear? Is it completely without clones and stuff - if the main focus is on that blades it creates? Planning to try it later and I usually want to go fully for the new mechanics (I mean ... game basically forces you to do it with giving new weapon and utility skill type where you just don't want to use 1 of those skills and then using older utility skills in other slots when the new trait lines usually synergize with the newer stuff).

Is it good at staying alive? I felt like the clones spamming of the classic mesmer (and I liked Chrono) made for a good option to stay alive cause enemies target them. If you have blades instead it might get harder to play? (Unless you are very skilled at it.)

Edited March 9, 2022 by Luthan.5236

[Hallow.7368]

1 hour ago, Levetty.1279 said:

A simple yes would have saved some time.

Not really because you're wrong.

[phokus.8934]

12 hours ago, Hallow.7368 said:

The espec does not need any kind of redesign or new features though.

Don't think anyone is asking for a complete redesign but it needs a lot of functional changes.  As noted many times in this forum - cast times, no auto facing when casting (or can't cast behind you), the heal requiring you to face your selected target, staff and scepter all but useless say for little utility as they get their damage and support from clones, F4 being a channeled block locking you out of non-instant abilities and doing horrible damage; make it block but not channeled, traits that are kind of messy; blocking or dodging an attack causes your next bladesongs to be unblockable but that is treated as a timed buff, bladesongs having high cooldowns for a spec that's supposed to shatter often but is always in overflow of blades.

These last few are a numbers game but this spec has a lot of inherent issues and flaws that I can't simply see them fixing outside of changing numbers.  Having played this game since beta, history tells me that it will be a long time before this spec is even remotely playable at plat+ in pvp and will be reflected in wvw.

Don't expect the summer balance patch to be the saving grace to this spec.  I hope I'm wrong but ever update has been largely disappointing.

[Hallow.7368]

57 minutes ago, phokus.8934 said:

Don't think anyone is asking for a complete redesign but it needs a lot of functional changes.  As noted many times in this forum - cast times, no auto facing when casting (or can't cast behind you), the heal requiring you to face your selected target, staff and scepter all but useless say for little utility as they get their damage and support from clones, F4 being a channeled block locking you out of non-instant abilities and doing horrible damage; make it block but not channeled, traits that are kind of messy; blocking or dodging an attack causes your next bladesongs to be unblockable but that is treated as a timed buff, bladesongs having high cooldowns for a spec that's supposed to shatter often but is always in overflow of blades.

These last few are a numbers game but this spec has a lot of inherent issues and flaws that I can't simply see them fixing outside of changing numbers.  Having played this game since beta, history tells me that it will be a long time before this spec is even remotely playable at plat+ in pvp and will be reflected in wvw.

Don't expect the summer balance patch to be the saving grace to this spec.  I hope I'm wrong but ever update has been largely disappointing.

See this is great feedback. Too bad it'll get drowned out by people making worthless posts that help no one and the likely low visitation that these subs gets due to that. I agree with pretty much all of these but for every constructive comment on this forum there are certain individuals who just go around and trash all over virt because it isn't what THEY wanted from it. It does sound like they already have a lot on their plate for the summer patch such as shadowarts reworks, some changes for the annoying stab engi stuff, spirits reworks, banner reworks etc. But there is always hope. One thing they probably should do is try to make a class representative system. There's one in ESO and while that game is run probably by the singular worst company to ever exist it works moderately well.

[Infinity.2876]

Virtuoso might be bad due to relatively low dps for being a mainly power burst spec but it is awfully nice when your trying to beat up those centaur weapon racks/jade brother hood listen devices core and mirage aren't just really good at that  

[Obliviscaris.6937]

4 hours ago, Levetty.1279 said:

A simple yes would have saved some time.

Cackling 🤣

[OriOri.8724]

14 hours ago, Hallow.7368 said:

I never said you did. The guy I responded to said it has no boon output to which I said this class did not need a third alac spec or a second quickness spec. And I mean welcome to the world of weaver I guess? My first main and what got me addicted to this game was a pchrono. I still love pchrono and it's what I got my first ascended weapon for. To me virt feels fantastic. Quite squishy in solo content due to no clones, but to be fair I'm also in full berserkers with 3 damage traitlines. Virt could use maybe a little tuning but those classes you're talking about are pretty much just overpowered and that's all there is to it. The espec does not need any kind of redesign or new features though. There's supposedly a huge balance patch coming in the summer, so until then we don't know what direction anet have in mind. For all anyone knows virt's dps could be their ideal balance point for a pure dps and they'll hard nerf a bunch of other classes like they did with self sustain and some of scourge and firebrand for EoD launch.

Balance and class design are about more than DPS potential. Virtuoso's blades still don't interact with every core mesmer clone trait. Its a lot clunkier to use than any other mesmer build because your f-skills now require you to face a target and have huge cast times (this despite the fact they are no better than core shatters). The f-skills did not have their functionality changed at all except to nerf f4 underground by replacing distortion with block. Dagger is a 1200 range weapon whose skills and trait encourage you to use it up close anyway. There are more design issues too.

 

DPS could be top of the charts but that wouldn't mean the design was sound.

[Hallow.7368]

19 minutes ago, OriOri.8724 said:

Balance and class design are about more than DPS potential. Virtuoso's blades still don't interact with every core mesmer clone trait. Its a lot clunkier to use than any other mesmer build because your f-skills now require you to face a target and have huge cast times (this despite the fact they are no better than core shatters). The f-skills did not have their functionality changed at all except to nerf f4 underground by replacing distortion with block. Dagger is a 1200 range weapon whose skills and trait encourage you to use it up close anyway. There are more design issues too.

 

DPS could be top of the charts but that wouldn't mean the design was sound.

That's a fair point except that I wouldn't call 600 range melee. Either way though when are you not in melee? You're pretty much perma stacked in melee in all content because of boons and healing and if you mean pvp then the only time this matters is vs other ranged because melees are going to gap close on you regardless. But it's not like this is something new. There are 2 traits in firearms (guns) for engi that require you to be within 300 range.

[De Bourgogne.9642]

In PvP its playable but there is no good reason to play it over Mirage it is not the worst spec out of EoD specs in that regard but it's not looking too hot. 

 

In PvE it is bad because it is just a dps spec with 0 utility or buffs, boons... You can play power chrono give 5 man quickness and deal 9k less dps. 

 

In WvW it is maybe playable in Zerks but I don't expect it to be specifically good either but it will be best mesmer zerk dps build so thats the only thing field where mesmer gains something as opposed to previous specs. 

[Levetty.1279]

2 hours ago, Hallow.7368 said:

See this is great feedback. Too bad it'll get drowned out by people making worthless posts that help no one and the likely low visitation that these subs gets due to that. I agree with pretty much all of these but for every constructive comment on this forum there are certain individuals who just go around and trash all over virt because it isn't what THEY wanted from it. It does sound like they already have a lot on their plate for the summer patch such as shadowarts reworks, some changes for the annoying stab engi stuff, spirits reworks, banner reworks etc. But there is always hope. One thing they probably should do is try to make a class representative system. There's one in ESO and while that game is run probably by the singular worst company to ever exist it works moderately well.

We've all been providing feedback since the first beta and it all got ignored. We have given up. They wanted to give us a half finished, poorly designed elite spec and they didn't care what we thought about it. Whats the point of giving feedback when they don't read it and we have people like you coming in to blindly praise them and insult everybody else?

[Hallow.7368]

30 minutes ago, Levetty.1279 said:

We've all been providing feedback since the first beta and it all got ignored. We have given up. They wanted to give us a half finished, poorly designed elite spec and they didn't care what we thought about it. Whats the point of giving feedback when they don't read it and we have people like you coming in to blindly praise them and insult everybody else?

Probably because it's not half finished and isn't poorly designed. Other people enjoy it, you don't. You seem to be the problem. Besides weren't you one of the people demanding they rebuild it from the ground up on the first beta? Hardly constructive.

[Vunter.6245]

It's hard to gauge the player base interest on something since the forums doesn't always represent the player-base as a whole.  Most game devs from what I have read and heard shoot to have 50% hate it and 50% love it because you know its balanced when it's somewhere in the middle; I personally would be very much interested on their internal stats of virtuoso. 

Sometimes it can be hard to really know if the feedback we give is being heard, because I did read the other forum post for the beta feedback and a large portion of that feedback wasn't addressed.  So it makes you wonder if the feedback was received and didn't mesh with their internal philosophies of what they wanted the class to do and be.  Or maybe they're spread so thin that they just didn't have the time to address the feedback.  Or maybe our feedback is being addressed but not till a later date.  Sometimes I wish they could chime in and let us know what feedback is being addressed and what isn't, but largely Anet doesn't really work like that. 

[Hallow.7368]

59 minutes ago, Vunter.6245 said:

It's hard to gauge the player base interest on something since the forums doesn't always represent the player-base as a whole.  Most game devs from what I have read and heard shoot to have 50% hate it and 50% love it because you know its balanced when it's somewhere in the middle; I personally would be very much interested on their internal stats of virtuoso. 

Sometimes it can be hard to really know if the feedback we give is being heard, because I did read the other forum post for the beta feedback and a large portion of that feedback wasn't addressed.  So it makes you wonder if the feedback was received and didn't mesh with their internal philosophies of what they wanted the class to do and be.  Or maybe they're spread so thin that they just didn't have the time to address the feedback.  Or maybe our feedback is being addressed but not till a later date.  Sometimes I wish they could chime in and let us know what feedback is being addressed and what isn't, but largely Anet doesn't really work like that. 

I don't think I've ever seen a company work like that to be fair though. Obviously this would be really nice, but it would be really time consuming and from a business perspective you probably don't want to be paying people to literally just sit on the forums. I doubt many people would want that job either given the animosity and how mentally draining it would be to deal with all the time. I think people really need to take a page out of your book and learn that their opinions aren't the only ones that matter. Anet has their own goals for elite specs, balancing and etc and when those clash with some player's anet is likely just going to stick with theirs. If I would have to guess they probably are spread pretty thin considering how delayed EoD was from initial release and the fact that they only really got time to put out information on some things that were changing with EoD (such as luck) really close to release. A dev on reddit actually went into all the math and stuff they did when the mystic coin changes were announced and that alone let me know that changes that are "simple" aren't really simple there's usually lots more to it than you see on the patchnotes.

[Vunter.6245]

57 minutes ago, Hallow.7368 said:

I don't think I've ever seen a company work like that to be fair though. Obviously this would be really nice, but it would be really time consuming and from a business perspective you probably don't want to be paying people to literally just sit on the forums. I doubt many people would want that job either given the animosity and how mentally draining it would be to deal with all the time. I think people really need to take a page out of your book and learn that their opinions aren't the only ones that matter. Anet has their own goals for elite specs, balancing and etc and when those clash with some player's anet is likely just going to stick with theirs. If I would have to guess they probably are spread pretty thin considering how delayed EoD was from initial release and the fact that they only really got time to put out information on some things that were changing with EoD (such as luck) really close to release. A dev on reddit actually went into all the math and stuff they did when the mystic coin changes were announced and that alone let me know that changes that are "simple" aren't really simple there's usually lots more to it than you see on the patchnotes.

 

I agree that most companies don't just have employees sit in the forums, however I do see a lot more companies that are way more transparent and open with their player base far more than ArenaNet is.  Not to critize them more, but I guess here I go; I find that Anet likes to reinvent the wheel with a lot of their systems when just a simple change would suffice.  So yes when they start totally reworking stuff things get more complicated.

[Mell.4873]

17 hours ago, Hallow.7368 said:

I think your question is answered simply by the fact that you seem to think anyone with a differing opinion than you is a shill or a troll. Sucks to suck but some people enjoy the spec. Maybe one day you'll realize that the world doesn't revolve around you nor does the spec need to fit your requirements just because you main mesmer.

I think you have got a few things wrong, Chronomancer right now is Mesmer highest burst class due to the time-split being able to reset cooldowns; This wont change anytime soon.

Virtuoso might seem busty since it comes with a free shatter but in reality is the best sustain for a Mesmer due to having a condition to heal trait and the blades/clones are not lost between targets in a fight. For this reason during, fractals, boss meta and such it will be able to maintain the most damage and be able to heal itself.

Mirage has the highest damage ceiling, with condition mirage being able to pull numbers as high as 40k in fractals and about 30k in general PVE. The obvious problem with this is it ramps up which is not what you want most of the time.

Edited March 9, 2022 by Mell.4873