Infinite Forge (Grandmaster Virtuoso Trait)

[Mikeskies.1536]

Infinite Forge, which automatically stocks blades while in combat every 3 seconds, is fairly lackluster for a grandmaster trait. It provides slightly less damage for power builds than Bloodsong on a training golem. While Infinite Forge does provide additional blade stocking during combat downtimes, its value is not easily quantified or measured. A damage modifier, even a small one, really needs to be added to this trait. Perhaps something like: "Gain 50 power for 5 seconds every time you stock a blade". 

[Xaylin.1860]

Since they luckily added passive blade regen to Virtuoso baseline, I'd personally just see this trait to be reworked. It's very passive and doesn't contribute anything to gameplay. It's less powerful than the other options anyway.

 

The problem to me is, all the other issues with Virtuoso traits aside, that the middle trait-row lacks a theme to begin with.

[Mikeskies.1536]

51 minutes ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

Since they luckily added passive blade regen to Virtuoso baseline, I'd personally just see this trait to be reworked. It's very passive and doesn't contribute anything to gameplay. It's less powerful than the other options anyway.

The passive blade stocking only applies out of combat. Infinite Forge does smooth out blade generation in combat rotationally, but Bloodsong effectively does the same thing plus gives a minor boost to bleed damage. Without either Infinite Forge or Bloodsong selected, you will find in PvE that you will always be lacking 1 blade when you want to use a Bladesong. The trait just needs to boost power damage in addition to its current effect. I am indifferent as to how they go about it, but simply stocking blades isn't enough.

[Xaylin.1860]

17 minutes ago, Mikeskies.1536 said:

The passive blade stocking only applies out of combat.

I'm aware. That's not what I've been referring to. The main benefit of Infinite Forge is the passive stacking which is a benefit that lost value due to the reasonable addition of out of combat regen. 

 

Which doesn't concern my more important argument: It is passive and will always be worse at blade generation ar current balance (rightfully so) unless you spent a significant time not actively fighting or are busy kiting. Why waste a GM on passive gameplay or even buff it to make it competitive with the more active ones?

 

30 minutes ago, Mikeskies.1536 said:

Without either Infinite Forge or Bloodsong selected, you will find in PvE that you will always be lacking 1 blade when you want to use a Bladesong.

Now I'm confused. Then we should buff Psychic Riposte, not Infinite Forge.

[Veprovina.4876]

So wait, if i take the condi trait from Virtuoso, and Bloodsong (3/2/3), i'd have more blades and damage than i would if i had taken all middle row ones (2/2/2)?

 

That's... kinda backwards. 😄

 

But also kinda makes sense. I mean, i'm already critting a lot, that will apply bleeding, and stock blades every 5  stacks, and bleeding, albeit low damage, is still damage compared to Infinite forge which contributes nothing to damage.

 

Wow, you're right, Infinite forge needs to do something else besides stocking blades. 

Edited March 11, 2022 by Veprovina.4876

[mungozen.2379]

I couldn’t find a reason to use Infinite Forge in any build. Most of the Virtuoso traits lead you towards making obvious build or play choices.  Infinitive Forge is uninspired and pointless currently. 

[Zoser.7245]

You don't seem to understand how the balance team works. So they'll fix it in their way. Nerf incoming to the Bloodsong trait for make Infinite Forge more valuable. 

Done. 👽

 

 

Edited March 11, 2022 by Zoser.7245

[Infusion.7149]

I don't see a power damage increase happening as Virtuoso benchmarks 40K , where  roughly 1K is from bleeding. More likely it will have some minor sustain added such as health gain when you are at max blades , vulnerability or something of that sort that doesn't push the power damage farther in a group scenario. There's only a tiny bit of sustain that has been added to condi virtuoso via Jagged Mind (3% condi damage to health).

[Veprovina.4876]

9 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

I don't see a power damage increase happening as Virtuoso benchmarks 40K , where  roughly 1K is from bleeding. More likely it will have some minor sustain added such as health gain when you are at max blades , vulnerability or something of that sort that doesn't push the power damage farther in a group scenario. There's only a tiny bit of sustain that has been added to condi virtuoso via Jagged Mind (3% condi damage to health).

Yeah, the dumbest thing anyone can do in any game balance is doing it around benchmarks.

That's attainable by literally maybe 20 people in the entire game, and only after long and hard practice.

The vast majority of players won't get near half of that.

Just because a few people can push it past its limits shouldn't be taken as a guideline.

 

Want a real benchmark?

 

Hire 500 Virtuoso players. Let them use arcdps and use it real scenarios, real OW fights and metas, fractals, strikes, raids, whatever, where you can't stand still in front of whatever you're attacking.

 

Then have them calculate how much DPS they did and where (what situation), and how many times they died in fights and where. Do an average, and you have your benchmark. That's what they should be balancing around. Not golem numbers.

Edited March 12, 2022 by Veprovina.4876

[Infusion.7149]

3 minutes ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

Yeah, the dumbest thing anyone can do in any game balance is doing it around benchmarks.

That's attainable by literally maybe 20 people in the entire game, and only after long and hard practice.

The vast majority of players won't get near half of that.

Just because a few people can push it past its limits shouldn't be taken as a guideline.

 

Want a real benchmark?

 

Hire 500 Virtuoso players. Let them use arcdps and use it real scenarios, real OW fights and metas, fractals, strikes, raids, whatever, where you can't stand still in front of whatever you're attacking.

 

Then have them calculate how much DPS they did and where (what situation), and how many times they died in fights and where. Do an average, and you have your benchmark. That's what they should be balancing around. Not golem numbers.

You do know they have data on the average performance in instanced content right?

Even the playerbase has a small subset of that.
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/raid/kc
--- Virtuoso performing on par with soulbeast and holo
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/raid/xera
--- Virtuoso performing on par with soulbeast and holo
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/raid/sloth
--- Virtuoso on par with harbinger/holo
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/raid/sam
--- on par with holo
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/raid/dei
--- edges out holo slightly for top spot
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/raid/vg
--- on par with holo
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/raid/ca
--- on par with holo
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/raid/adina
---  middle performance

STRIKES
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/strike/woj
--- on par with top performers on Whisper of Jormag

https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/strike/li
top DPS on Minster Li strike mission ,filter 1% max boss health not kills

https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/strike/ankka
on par with top performers on Junkyard

----
That's not even including the countless virtuosos you see in every EOD meta. Let's face it , damage isn't the problem in PVE.

[Veprovina.4876]

8 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

You do know they have data on the average performance in instanced content right?

Even the playerbase has a small subset of that.
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/raid/kc
--- Virtuoso performing on par with soulbeast and holo
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/raid/xera
--- Virtuoso performing on par with soulbeast and holo
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/raid/sloth
--- Virtuoso on par with harbinger/holo
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/raid/sam
--- on par with holo
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/raid/dei
--- edges out holo slightly for top spot
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/raid/vg
--- on par with holo
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/raid/ca
--- on par with holo
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/raid/adina
---  middle performance

STRIKES
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/strike/woj
--- on par with top performers on Whisper of Jormag

https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/strike/li
top DPS on Minster Li strike mission ,filter 1% max boss health not kills

https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/strike/ankka
on par with top performers on Junkyard

----
That's not even including the countless virtuosos you see in every EOD meta. Let's face it , damage isn't the problem in PVE.

Yes, but you still averaged only people who play raids. And full of boons and whatnot.

So of course that anyone who can clear a raid will be on a similar level, that just proves it.

 

I meant, pick people at random, then see what happens. Then the picture isn't so clear, then the DPS might be different on that statistic.

 

Besides, i didn't want to imply the damage sucks, i know it doesn't. Needs to still be better if flat DPS is the only thing Virtuoso can do, but that's neither here or there now. 

 

What sucks, and i'm sure will bring a lot of people's DPS down, is all the inconsistencies and bugs and just at times bad design of it all (everything a projectile, really anet?), etc. And different skill levels of people across the game, not just raiders who are a vast minority. 

Edited March 12, 2022 by Veprovina.4876

[Infusion.7149]

10 minutes ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

Yes, but you still averaged only people who play raids. And full of boons and whatnot.

So of course that anyone who can clear a raid will be on a similar level, that just proves it.

 

I meant, pick people at random, then see what happens. Then the picture isn't so clear, then the DPS might be different on that statistic.

 

Besides, i didn't want to imply the damage sucks, i know it doesn't. Needs to still be better if flat DPS is the only thing Virtuoso can do, but that's neither here or there now. 

 

What sucks, and i'm sure will bring a lot of people's DPS down, is all the inconsistencies and bugs and just at times bad design of it all (everything a projectile, really anet?), etc. And different skill levels of people across the game, not just raiders who are a vast minority. 

Are you saying virtuoso is harder than pchrono (especially with proper continuum split use)?

There's bugs for sure but to suggest it needs game-changing improvements for PVE when no other class has clones is quite baffling to me. It's more or less mesmer for people that don't like mesmer clones and that's fine as long as everything is functional.

edit: also I find it comical that you're complaining about golem benchmarks when the topic creator wrote the following "It provides slightly less damage for power builds than Bloodsong on a training golem"

Edited March 12, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Veprovina.4876]

5 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Are you saying virtuoso is harder than pchrono (especially with proper continuum split use)?

There's bugs for sure but to suggest it needs game-changing improvements for PVE when no other class has clones is quite baffling to me. It's more or less mesmer for people that don't like mesmer clones and that's fine as long as everything is functional.

edit: also I find it comical that you're complaining about golem benchmarks when the topic creator wrote the following "It provides slightly less damage for power builds than Bloodsong on a training golem"

Well, it does need game changing improvements. I said as much in my review thread. Not because other classses don't have clones, but because of how Virtuoso itself functions. But that has nothing to do with what i said about dps. 

 

And golem benchmarks are a bit of a pet peeve of mine, i just think they're worthless in general to balance the game around. Especially in say, Chrono, like, not a lot of people can do that rotation. Virtuoso's benchmark might be closer to what more people can do than Chrono, but i still maintain that having raid people do benchmarks that then everything else is balanced around is a kitten move by Anet.

 

We've seen this happen with torment. It got changed because raid bosses. No one even thought about WvW.

And it will happen with Virtuoso cause knowing Anet, they'll see the number, say "hey it's overperforming and everything is fine with it", and nerf it to the ground so that when Guardians do 45k dps, they'll say "that's fine". Meanwhile, nothing the community says will suddenly have merit because "virtuoso benches X number on golem". 

And it's not just mesmers, just, balancing the game around something only a few people can achieve is just baffling me from the start Anet decided to do that. 

So don't hold my golem benchmark comments too tied to Virtuoso, they're more in general, but since this is a mesmer thread, i said it in the confines of our class.

I just would like to see Anet think outside the box, and do right by mesmer players, not just by fixing Virtuoso, but by also fixing Mirage in WvW (that one dodge has gone long enough), and making Chrono proper support capabilities, like it used to have. Cause if everyone else gets to have what Chrono had, it's fair that they return some of it to Chrono.

[Infusion.7149]

4 hours ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

Well, it does need game changing improvements. I said as much in my review thread. Not because other classses don't have clones, but because of how Virtuoso itself functions. But that has nothing to do with what i said about dps. 

 

And golem benchmarks are a bit of a pet peeve of mine, i just think they're worthless in general to balance the game around. Especially in say, Chrono, like, not a lot of people can do that rotation. Virtuoso's benchmark might be closer to what more people can do than Chrono, but i still maintain that having raid people do benchmarks that then everything else is balanced around is a kitten move by Anet.

 

We've seen this happen with torment. It got changed because raid bosses. No one even thought about WvW.

And it will happen with Virtuoso cause knowing Anet, they'll see the number, say "hey it's overperforming and everything is fine with it", and nerf it to the ground so that when Guardians do 45k dps, they'll say "that's fine". Meanwhile, nothing the community says will suddenly have merit because "virtuoso benches X number on golem". 

And it's not just mesmers, just, balancing the game around something only a few people can achieve is just baffling me from the start Anet decided to do that. 

So don't hold my golem benchmark comments too tied to Virtuoso, they're more in general, but since this is a mesmer thread, i said it in the confines of our class.

I just would like to see Anet think outside the box, and do right by mesmer players, not just by fixing Virtuoso, but by also fixing Mirage in WvW (that one dodge has gone long enough), and making Chrono proper support capabilities, like it used to have. Cause if everyone else gets to have what Chrono had, it's fair that they return some of it to Chrono.

Are you aware that the torment change along with exposed change in fractals catapulted scourge into popularity? In the same patch power burst for DH, soulbeast, and holo was cut. Fractals see far more play than raids and therefore people that geared scourges for fractals spilled that over into raids.

That change had nearly nothing to do with raids, as there are only a few raids that heavily favor conditions namely Soulless Horror (where epidemic is common) and Matthias. Twin Largos has enough movement and attack rate that confusion (mirages) are the common pick. Condition damage doesn't even factor into WVW balance at the squad level and most conditions short of immob are not highly threatening with scrappers supporting, it primarily factors into PVP balance where clears are not in bulk (for example cleansing sigil clears 3 in WVW and only 1 in PVP) and that overflows into WVW balance.

When chrono was a 42K benchmark with Danger Time bonus I've seen someone benchmark it to show people even without continuum split it was doing 35K+ , it's still up here. Just this past week Fennec from qT commented that for low man scenarios that "Firebrand, Renegade, Mirage or Illusion pChrono are so potent, they have easy access to Might, huge CC, Quickness and/or Alacrity, Fury and have good sustain/survivability without gimping their damage much, often just needing to swap out a rune or a trait".  You're probably forgetting that firebrands generate quickness so in a solo scenario if a class does say 30K benchmark it's effectively roughly equal to a 40K "just DPS" spec due to these factors.

I'm not sure if you played when chrono was still new and it was the only quickness and alacrity provider. It was a terrible LFG experience if you were a chrono since you were chrono-jailed in fractals and raids alike. It was similarly poor when you  didn't have the ability to play chrono (and judging by when I wasn't on chrono people weren't that great on average).  Firebrand + renegade comp is a safer comp than chrono + druid as well as being more reflective of the player skill of the average player and it doesn't hurt that guardian is the most played class. What EOD has done is provide options that may or may not be better , for example Catalyst has a few thousand more DPS while outputting quickness but most players will drop hammer orbs and reduce that damage and Harbinger doesn't have as many ways to save the party in the meta build if things get iffy despite having a similar benchmark to firebrand.

You say Arenanet should think outside the box yet so many players on this subforum and other professions' subforums only play one class in one game mode. It is hard for them to sift through mountains of feedback when people don't have unbiased perspectives.

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

I actually really like this trait, I just wish I could have unblockable Bladesongs at the same time.

If you wanted to rework it I think "Skills that generate blades, generate an extra blade" would be cool. So for example Mirror Blade would generate 2 blades, Phantasmal Duelist would generate 2 blades, Mirror Images would generate 3 blades, and so on.

I think that would be fun.

Edited March 13, 2022 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[Mikeskies.1536]

On 3/11/2022 at 3:56 PM, Infusion.7149 said:

I don't see a power damage increase happening as Virtuoso benchmarks 40K , where  roughly 1K is from bleeding. More likely it will have some minor sustain added such as health gain when you are at max blades , vulnerability or something of that sort that doesn't push the power damage farther in a group scenario. There's only a tiny bit of sustain that has been added to condi virtuoso via Jagged Mind (3% condi damage to health).

 

Infinite Forge just needs to be better than Bloodsong. Bloodsong is like 250 DPS better than Infinite Forge in a benchmarking training golem setting. It won't take much to have Infinite Forge surpass it. It needs to do something other than passive generating blades, such as gaining power or causing damage every time a blade is forged.

 

On 3/11/2022 at 1:21 PM, Veprovina.4876 said:

So wait, if i take the condi trait from Virtuoso, and Bloodsong (3/2/3), i'd have more blades and damage than i would if i had taken all middle row ones (2/2/2)?

It's not more blades. Both traits give you the same amount of blades which you can reasonably spend within the cooldowns of F1 and F2. It's the 25% extra bleed damage that gives a very small overall damage boost.  

[Veprovina.4876]

16 minutes ago, Mikeskies.1536 said:

It's not more blades. Both traits give you the same amount of blades which you can reasonably spend within the cooldowns of F1 and F2. It's the 25% extra bleed damage that gives a very small overall damage boost.  

After playing with Bloodsong for a while, it does kinda manage to stock more blades. Or maybe i just think it does. But Bloodsong definitely makes infinite forge pointless.

[Infusion.7149]

7 minutes ago, Mikeskies.1536 said:

 

Infinite Forge just needs to be better than Bloodsong. Bloodsong is like 250 DPS better than Infinite Forge in a benchmarking training golem setting. It won't take much to have Infinite Forge surpass it. It needs to do something other than passive generating blades, such as gaining power or causing damage every time a blade is forged.

 

It's not more blades. Both traits give you the same amount of blades which you can reasonably spend within the cooldowns of F1 and F2. It's the 25% extra bleed damage that gives a very small overall damage boost.  

A passive power gain is not a good idea if it's already top or near top of power DPS, only exceeded by harder to play power catalyst and virtues willbender (which needs aegis uptime). It could probably just apply the deadly blades buff if you are at full blades on top of the existing usage if damage is the only purpose. In reality pre-stocking blades as opposed to generating them while you hit things gives you more burst between phases or if you switch targets and a large issue with power virtuoso is a lack of sustain if you run the traits needed for power virtuoso.

Looking at the benchmark as far as phantasms it's Phantasmal Swordsman (12s cooldown under alac and cast 12 times making ~10% benchmark) , Phantasmal Disenchanter (16s cooldown under alac and cast 9 times making ~3.7% benchmark) , Phantasmal Warden (16s cooldown under alac and cast 4 times making ~3.3% of benchmark). Unlike chrono you don't have Improved Alacrity or Continuum Split so it comes down to cooldowns recharged by Signet of the Ether which has 24s cooldown under alacrity. These are the ways you're outputting bleeding from illusions via Sharper Images.

If you run inspiration you generally need to shatter to get heals from the traitline but I guess they expect you to run Illusionary Inspiration. So it is best if any sustain is built based off stocked blades as opposed to the condi variants which while weak have the new 3% condition damage to healing on Jagged Mind. Condi variants suffer heavily since you don't have clones to apply bleeding from Sharper Images.

The Phantasmal Blades trait already causes damage from phantasms cast, so it is unlikely your idea is to be implemented because you "double dip" on phantasms even more when they make blades.

[Mikeskies.1536]

57 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

A passive power gain is not a good idea if it's already top or near top of power DPS, only exceeded by harder to play power catalyst and virtues willbender (which needs aegis uptime).

It is barely 40k dps with the condi GM trait. I am not advocating for Infinite Forge to make Virtuoso do significantly more damage than it currently does, only for Power Virtuoso to do 40k dps with the presumptive power GM trait. Which is, at most, 500 dps  more value than it currently provides.

[Mikeskies.1536]

1 hour ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

After playing with Bloodsong for a while, it does kinda manage to stock more blades. Or maybe i just think it does. But Bloodsong definitely makes infinite forge pointless.

It is hard to track how many blades you generate and how many get wasted because you're capped, but practically speaking, the only thing that matters is if you have 5 blades by the time you want to use F1 or F2, which both do. Infinite Forge's "bonus" value comes from being at 5 blades following phasing delays, which many fights tend to have; however, the value of that is hard to measure.

[piitb.7635]

It could also shave off a second of every bladesong.

 

I think the point of the talent is to always be bladesinging, but it's barely noticeable.

[Levetty.1279]

On 3/11/2022 at 8:56 PM, Infusion.7149 said:

I don't see a power damage increase happening as Virtuoso benchmarks 40K , where  roughly 1K is from bleeding. More likely it will have some minor sustain added such as health gain when you are at max blades , vulnerability or something of that sort that doesn't push the power damage farther in a group scenario. There's only a tiny bit of sustain that has been added to condi virtuoso via Jagged Mind (3% condi damage to health).

Those are the kind of things I want for virtuoso (it needs life steal for power builds maybe they can slap that on infinite forge) but in regards to dps It does 40k on a large hotbox golem. 38 on a normal one. It does less dps then several specs that can spec multiple ways and have utility, that is not ok.

On 3/12/2022 at 6:12 AM, Infusion.7149 said:

That's not even including the countless virtuosos you see in every EOD meta.

Thats just a straight up lie.

On 3/12/2022 at 6:25 AM, Infusion.7149 said:

It's more or less mesmer for people that don't like mesmer clones and that's fine as long as everything is functional.

How the kitten is the new Mesmer elite spec being a mesmer for people who hate mesmer fine? When do Mesmers get thier new elite spec then?