Meta + Strike Missions = Turtle. No thank you.

[Sobx.1758]

4 minutes ago, FortyTwo.8697 said:

I don't understand. Do you agree with my compromise? Or are you trying to say uou disagree while simultanously making my point for me? Isn't giving an incentive to play the whole game a good thing? I'm also not saying the rewards should be split. I'm saying the rewards should be achievable everywhere. That means you can get the turtle by doing a single type of content, but it can be any content you like.

Which part don't you understand?

That's right, giving an incentive to play the whole game is a good thing, that's exactly what I said. I see you agree, good. And "giving incentive to play the whole game" is not what is done by making every reward for playing any limited content. It's done by spliting rewards between the content. So while you didn't understand the reasoning there, it's good you agree "giving an incentive to play the whole game a good thing". That is indeed the point here.

Edited March 24, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[FortyTwo.8697]

Just now, Sobx.1758 said:

Which part don't you understand?

What I said. Do you agree with my compromise or not? Do you think encouraging people to play any game mode they want is a good thing, or a bad thing?

[yoni.7015]

3 minutes ago, FortyTwo.8697 said:

So you do want to force people into a single type of content. Let's lock the main expanion feature of the next expanion behind PvP, WvW, fractals or raids, as long as it's the content you do not want to do. And I do not want to see you cry about it on the forums if that would actually happen.

I actually like every game mode. I don’t like to limit myself and I want to try different things. I played a lot of PvP to get the first legendary armor set and the legendary backpack. After that I discovered that I really enjoy WvW and got my second and third legendary armor set through that game mode. Fractals are fun and my way to make gold in this game. So no, you won’t see me crying on the forums. 

Edited March 24, 2022 by yoni.7015

[Sobx.1758]

5 minutes ago, FortyTwo.8697 said:

What I said. Do you agree with my compromise or not? Do you think encouraging people to play any game mode they want is a good thing, or a bad thing?

Added to the previous post while you've already responded:

That's right, giving an incentive to play the whole game is a good thing, that's exactly what I said. I see you agree, good. And "giving incentive to play the whole game" is not what is done by making every reward for playing any limited content. It's done by spliting rewards between the content. So while you didn't understand the reasoning there, it's good you agree "giving an incentive to play the whole game a good thing". That is indeed the point here.

What you propose is letting every reward to be unlocked by whatever limited content someone wants to play exclusively. That is pretty obviously not how you give incentive to play broader content of the game at all.

Edited March 24, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[FortyTwo.8697]

16 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Which part don't you understand?

That's right, giving an incentive to play the whole game is a good thing, that's exactly what I said. I see you agree, good. And "giving incentive to play the whole game" is not what is done by making every reward for playing any limited content. It's done by spliting rewards between the content.

Not for main expanion features. The open world is one thing. That's the foundation, the baseline, of the whole game. Locking a main expansion feature behind a single type of specific instanced content might not be such a good idea. That's why people are complaining. That's why people are mad about this. No one complained about the griffon and skyscale being an open world reward. People complained about the griffon being expensive and skyscale being too long. Compaints I disagree with. I think the price of the griffon and the time needed for the skyscale are good supplements for the overal lack of challenge in the open world.

Had they locked those mounts behind strikes, fractals, raids, PvP or WvW, however... Well, let's just say people would have been rather mad. Exactly like they are now because of the the turtle. The DE meta was one thing. But the strike mission? I think that's going a bit too far.

Edited March 24, 2022 by FortyTwo.8697

[Tails.9372]

46 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Anything can  be claimed to majorly(??) impact ones gameplay experience. So do what I want or it's bad/theft/gatekeeping/elitism/unplayable?

How disingenuous do you plan to get? Both visual and sound effects are a major part of the gameplay experience which the devs acknowledged on multiple occasions. If A-Net would have offered the same basic courtesy to all of their ranged skins then one could make the argument to just use e.g. the Primordus weapons over the Aurene variants as a similar alternative but they don't so your attempt of being dismissive doesn't hold any weight.

46 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Where did I say anything about them being "another set of BL-esque" weapon skins?

Where did I say that not having the variant skins influences one's "gameplay pattern in any way" or that it "locks people out of any playable content"?

You were acting as if it wasn't a big deal which ofc. would also include the things I was talking about in my response and if you take the liberty of reading things into someone else's posts then you have no ground to complain if the same thing is being done to yours.

Edited March 24, 2022 by Tails.9372

[FortyTwo.8697]

9 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

I actually like every game mode. I don’t like to limit myself and I want to try different things. I played a lot of PvP to get the first legendary armor set and the legendary backpack. After that I discovered that I really enjoy WvW and got my second and third legendary armor set through that game mode. Fractals are fun and my way to make gold in this game. So no, you won’t see me crying on the forums. 

That's too bad. But can you imagine that there are people who are *gasp* not like you? People who do not like every game mode and now have to force themselves to do something they never wanted to do, just to get a main expansion feature? I think people would have been equally mad about it if the turtle had been locked behind PvP. And I'd have stood with them, just like I do now, even though I do like PvP.

Edited March 24, 2022 by FortyTwo.8697

[Sobx.1758]

4 minutes ago, Tails.9372 said:

How disingenuous do you plan to get? Both visual and sound effects are a major part of the gameplay experience which the devs acknowledged on multiple occasions. If A-Net would have offered the same basic courtesy to all of their ranged skins then one could make the argument to just use the e.g. the Primordus weapons over the Aurene variant as a similar alternative but they don't so your attempt of being dismissive doesn't hold any weight.

Where did I say that not having the variant skins influences one's "gameplay pattern in any way" or that it "locks people out of any playable content"?

You were acting as if it wasn't a big deal which ofc. would also include the things I was talking about in my response and if you take the liberty of reading things into someone else's posts then you have no ground to complain if the same thing is being done to yours.

So... If I want something that majorly impacts my gameplay experience (legendary weapons), I have to do the thing to get the thing. But if I have to do the thing to get the turtle (that, just like legendaries don't lock me out of anything and similarly to those, I can simply choose to not get it/them and keep playing like I did without being locked out of any content) then... it's bad for some reason?

You're free to make your decisions. Getting either of those things don't lock you out of the content. It just goes back to what I've literally said in the post you've quoted: Anything can be claimed to majorly(??) impact ones gameplay experience. So do what I want or it's bad/theft/gatekeeping/elitism/unplayable?

Anyone can take ANY part of the game and claim THAT'S the one thing that I'm playing for. What exactly is so "disingenuous" here?

Edited March 24, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[yoni.7015]

1 minute ago, FortyTwo.8697 said:

That's too bad. But can you imagine that there are people who are *gasp* not like you? People who do not like every game mode and now have to force themselves to do something they never wanted to do, just to get a main expansion feature? I think people would have been equally mad about it if the turtle had been locked behind PvP. And I'd have stood with them, just like I do now, even though I do like PvP.

Of course I can, but then again, we are talking about 15 or 20 minutes. 

[FortyTwo.8697]

1 minute ago, yoni.7015 said:

Of course I can, but then again, we are talking about 15 or 20 minutes. 

Again, that's NOT the issue. Time is NOT the issue. The challenge is NOT the issue. The issue is people being forced into content they do not want to do to gain access to a main expansion feature.

Edited March 24, 2022 by FortyTwo.8697

[Sobx.1758]

21 minutes ago, FortyTwo.8697 said:

Not for main expanion features. The open world is one thing. That's the foundation, the baseline, of the whole game. Locking a main expanion feature behind a single type of specific instanced content might not be such a good idea. That's why people are complaining. That's why people are mad about this.

You don't decide what's the "main expansion feature" or "foundation" (how is this "foundation"? It's not needed for anything in the game, it's a toy) nor how it's unlocked.

Quote

No one complained about the griffon and skyscale being an open world reward. People complained about the griffon being expensive and skyscale being too long. Compaints I disagree with. I think the price of the griffon and the time needed for the skyscale are good suplements for the overal lack of challenge in the open world.

Had they locked those mounts behind strikes, fractals, raids, PvP or WvW, however... Well, let's just say people would have been rather mad. Exactly like they are now because of the the turtle. The DE meta was one thing. But the strike mission? I think that's going a bit too far.

"No complaint about griffon and skyscale"? Now, that's just a blatant lie. And I don't have any doubt that it's indeed an attempt to intentionally lie about it, since you've corrected yourself riiight in the next sentence. You know it, so stop making up stuff in order to pretend you're correct about something you know you're not. If griffon/skyscale show us anything, it's that it's not about specific content, it's about easier reward.

Now, if you disagree with those complaints, then you should understand people can disagree with this complaint. And it's not just "I disagree because I do", it is being constantly explained here.

 

Also don't conveniently try to run away from the "giving incentive to play the whole game" part of the post. Definitely please go back to it, since that was and is the main point.

Edited March 24, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Ithlia.1830]

The idea here is that one has to play the whole game or do without. It doesn't affect the way you have been playing so that's fine.

 

I don't do raids, strikes or fractals. (I have a list of reasons that no one is interested in reading.) So I have done without legendary armor, weapons and trinkets. I told myself  "oh well. I don't raid so I don't need those things. I can have all ascended stuff." Now the turtle comes along and it is strike gated. Again I tell myself  "oh well. I play solo so I don't need this mount. I probably won't use it much."

 

The thing that concerns me.... is this the direction ArenaNet is going now? Locking the shiny, new, buy the expansion toys behind this type of gameplay. I really hope not because I'm not sure how long I can keep telling myself "oh well" and continue to be happy playing this game.

 

Edited March 25, 2022 by Ithlia.1830
I stated something that wasn't technically correct.

[yoni.7015]

2 minutes ago, Ithlia.1830 said:

The idea here is that one has to play the whole game or do without. It doesn't affect the way you have been playing so that's fine.

 

I don't do raids, strikes or fractals. (I have a list of reasons that no one is interested in reading.) So I have done without legendary armor, weapons and trinkets. I told myself  "oh well. I don't raid so I don't need those things. I can have all ascended stuff." Now the turtle comes along and it is PVE raid and strike gated. Again I tell myself  "oh well. I play solo so I don't need this mount. I probably won't use it much."

 

The thing that concerns me is... is this the direction ArenaNet is going now? Locking the shiny new, buy the expansion, toys behind this type of gameplay. I really hope not because I'm not sure how long I can keep telling myself "oh well" and continue to be happy playing this game.

The turtle is not raid gated. 

[Astralporing.1957]

3 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

The turtle is not raid gated. 

Strikes are just a rebranding of raids. A content of the same type, designed for the same audience, just named differently in hope that community at large will suddenly change their mind about it due to that.

Edited March 24, 2022 by Astralporing.1957

[yoni.7015]

1 minute ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Strikes are just a rebranding of raids.

No they are not. And the quote was “raid and strike gated” 

[Ithlia.1830]

4 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

The turtle is not raid gated. 

Thank you for the correction.

[Astralporing.1957]

1 minute ago, yoni.7015 said:

No they are not.

I see no functional difference. A rose by any other name still smells the same.

[yoni.7015]

1 minute ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

I see no functional difference. A rose by any other name still smells the same.

Strikes are a lot easier and they don’t  take that long. The only thing they have in common with raids is that both are for ten people. 

[Sobx.1758]

11 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

I see no functional difference. A rose by any other name still smells the same.

The functional difference seems to be what people not getting into raids were complaining about. It softens the entry path, introducing the encounters in the story mode, then going into group setting and finally -in the future- into harder, supposedly raid level CM encounters. SMs also don't require people to complete "chains of bosses" to get to the encounter they want (or otherwise they'd need to look for "openers"), so playing the specific encounter they want is easier.

It's not just some sneaky rebranding, it's making it more accessible -something that was discussed and requested on this forum. If it was "designed for the same people", it wouldn't need to be rebranded or changed in any way, like it currently clearly is.

Edited March 24, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[FortyTwo.8697]

2 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

You don't decide what's the "main expansion feature" or "foundation" (how is this "foundation"? It's not needed for anything in the game, it's a toy) nor how it's unlocked.

"No complaint about griffon and skyscale"? Now, that's just a blatant lie. And I don't have any doubt that it's indeed an attempt to intentionally lie about it, since you've corrected yourself riiight in the next sentence. You know it, so stop making up stuff in order to pretend you're correct about something you know you're not. If griffon/skyscale show us anything, it's that it's not about specific content, it's about easier reward.

Now, if you disagree with those complaints, then you should understand people can disagree with this complaint. And it's not just "I disagree because I do", it is being constantly explained here.

 

Also don't conveniently try to run away from the "giving incentive to play the whole game" part of the post. Definitely please go back to it, since that was and is the main point.

I think Anet made very clear that the turtle was a main expanion feature due to how they marketed it. It's literally on the front page of their website and game launcher, and is what the expanion marketing slogan is all about. Don't even try to deny it. You're being disengenous.

You keep on hammering down on this point about the griffon and the skyscale. I disagree with it. I do not see such complaints. The only complaints I see are about the price and the time needed. And if anyone complains about the griffon and the skyscale being open world rewards then I will disagree with those complaints.

But I realise you do that to steer the conversation away from the original point. A point on which you took a stance you cannot defend. Therefore you attempt to steer away from that point. I will not engage with this any further.

Instead, I will bring back the original point. Should a main expansion feature be locked behind anything else than the open world? Well, I do not think so. I think that a main expansion feature should be obtainable by all. Other than that, I do think specific types of content need specific rewards that you can only get by doing that specific content. That's fine. No problem with that. I just do not think that a main expanion feature is one of such rewards. Nor should it be.

You can disagree with that all you want. That's fine. You do you. But I'll be going now. Got real life stuff to do.

Have a good day.

Edited March 24, 2022 by FortyTwo.8697

[Sobx.1758]

7 minutes ago, FortyTwo.8697 said:

I think Anet made very clear that the turtle was a main expanion feature due to how they marketed it. It's literally on the front page of their website and game launcher, and is what the expanion marketing slogan is all about. Don't even try to deny it. You're being disengenous.

You keep on hammering down on this point about the griffon and the skyscale. I disagree with it. I do not see such complaints. The only complaints I see are about the price and the time needed. And if anyone complains about the griffon and the skyscale being open world rewards then I will disagree with those complaints.

But I realise you do that to steer the conversation away from the original point. A point on which you took a stance you cannot defend. Therefore you attemt to street away from that point. I will not engage with this any further.

Instead, I will bring back the original point. Should a main expanion feature be locked behind anything else than the open world? Well, I do not think so. I think that a main expanion feature should be obtainable by all. Other than that, I do think specific types of content need specific rewards that you can only get by doing that specific content. That's fine. No problem with that. I just do not think that a main expanion feature is one of such rewards. Nor should it be.

You can disagree with that all you want. That's fine. You do you. But I'll be going now. Got real life stuff to do.

Have a good day.

I'm not sure why there would need to specifically be a complaint about griffon/skyscale "being unlocked in the open world". If those mounts show us anything, it's still that the mode they're unlocked in didn't matter, since the complaints about easier acquisition still poured in.

 

The original point was:"giving incentive to play the whole game". I am not trying to "steer away from it", in fact I've speicifically reminded you to go back to it:

46 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Also don't conveniently try to run away from the "giving incentive to play the whole game" part of the post. Definitely please go back to it, since that was and is the main point.

I believed that was the point here and I still do, nothing about that changed and I am not the one dropping it.

Edited March 24, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[FortyTwo.8697]

17 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

The original point was:"giving incentive to play the whole game". I am not trying to "steer away from it", in fact I've speicifically reminded you to go back to it:

I believed that was the point here and I still do, nothing about that changed.

Ok, last answer. The original point was the turtle shouldn't have been locked behind a strike mission. That's the entire point of this whole thread. It's literally in the title and post of the OP. The DE meta was already a huge problem for a lot of people. Adding the strike mission requirement on top of that was like kitten icing on the kitten cake.. People are NOT happy about this. I agree with that. You do not. That was the entire original point from beginning to end.

Again, have a good day.

Edited March 25, 2022 by FortyTwo.8697

[Sobx.1758]

7 minutes ago, FortyTwo.8697 said:

Ok, last answer. The original point was turtle shouldn't have been locked behind a strike mission. That's the entire point of this whole thread. It's literally in the title and post of the OP. The DE meta was already a huge problem for a lot of people. Adding the strike mission requirement on top of that was like kitten icing on the shitcake.. People are NOT happy about this. I agree with that. You do not. That was the entire original point from beginning to end.

"The turtle shouldn't be behind strike mission" isn't a point, it's a request/wish trying to pose as an objective fact, while not being one. The point of doing it this way -most probably- is to incentivize players to play broader content of the game (with rewards not influencing the progress in the game, something that in this case amounts to being a toy). Something you've agreed is a good thing above.

Edited March 24, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Astralporing.1957]

2 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

"The turtle shouldn't be behind strike mission" isn't a point, it's a request/wish trying to pose as an objective fact, while not being one. The point of doing it this way -most probably- is to incentivize players to play broader content of the game (with rewards not influencing the progress in the game, something that in this case amounts to being a toy). Something you've agreed is a good thing above.

Except it is not. Incentivizing players to play broader content of the game would be done by giving options. This is trying to channel players towards a very specific part of the game. Which is anything but good.

[Sobx.1758]

16 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Except it is not. Incentivizing players to play broader content of the game would be done by giving options. This is trying to channel players towards a very specific part of the game. Which is anything but good.

I've already wrote about it, so maybe read the rest of the comment chain. I'm really not sure why you've decided to comment on this now, while at the same time disregarding everything that was written about it earlier.

Anyways, "long story short": allowing every reward to be acquired in whatever way, within whatever content they're already playing doesn't do anything to incentivize playing broader content of the game. If I can get everything by repeatedly killing a wolf in queensdale, it doesn't work as an incetive for me to move anywhere else. It really isn't that complicated and I'm confused about some people repeatedly pretending here that "playing broader content of the game" is somehow incentivized by providing same rewards everywhere. By what logic exactly does it do that?

Edited March 24, 2022 by Sobx.1758