Why PVE necros can't have nice things

[ZDragon.3046]

39 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Well, for SURE Reaper DPS traits are not out dated. Soul Eater is a very reasonable trait, as is Cold Shoulder. Reaper's Onslaught is borderline broken and Decimated Defenses is so stupidly OP in a team setting that you almost can't avoid overcapping crit rate with it. 

Again, the issues with Reaper have nothing to do with its offensive capability; it couldn't POSSIBLY get more DPS with the current trait structure. The problem it has is what it doesn't bring to a team, which is anything. I don't even see that as a problem really. It's OK we don't have every spec relevant to every game mode and scenario; there are lots of choices for that. 

I never said reaper specific traits i said traits related to reapers dps this includes core traits like close to death which has not been changed basically sense the games release. I question if traits that do nothing for the first 50% of the fight should remain at this point. 

0 value for the first 50% of combat 

Less value than they use to have thanks to the ever increase dps of other builds as the shorter the fight time is sub 50% the less value and time to shine traits like this have. If a fight drags on long enough sub 50% you can see this trait working really hard over time. However, in ideal situations where most players play there best and the sub 50% phase is a breeze the trait hardly has time to do much of anything. 

Then we have things like signet of spite which also more or less has not changed from the games release which in comparison to the newly designed signets on mechanist which offer % increases to strike damage instead of flat numerical power increases are undoubtedly outdated. 

 

I wont go too much further into this but again its things like this that could be updated that would give reaper the dps increases that wouldnt hurt even if they were not exactly = to newer specs it would certainly close the gap a bit. I know we cant force anet to do these things however these are just suggestions. 

Late edit:

Solving problems.. is fine obenta.... the problems i want to solve are generally along the lines of things that are really outdated which is kind of a legit reason from my perspective. I'm not asking for shroud skills to be buffed or to have their scaling ratios increased. You wouldn't know that though based on back and forth questions you asked. I could only guess your assumption was that I just want something to just have it without actually inquiring what i actually want in detail. Instead of asking me what I would suggest to increase reapers dps you asked me why i think reaper should have a dps increase at all then starting shooting down the idea of any increase without knowing what I might have suggested. You made assumptions without having all the information. The whole idea of the 28th patch is to address outdated and unused tools so perhaps my suggestions of a reaper dps increase revolved around somethings that are out dated. This is why I suggest a change on how you respond to peoples suggestions. 

 

Edited June 13, 2022 by ZDragon.3046

[Puck.3697]

On 6/11/2022 at 3:40 AM, Radina.6057 said:

The current benchmark is at 34k. Sounds great, until you take a look at it and see that you have to prematurely end some skills. Learning that alone is already a bigger time investment than just learning something like zerk Soulbeast. If you just ignore the animation clipping your damage tanks

What??  

Every proffession and specc has to learn how to prematurely end abilities. It's called animation cancelling. 

And ironically, zerk soulbeast has more animation cancelling then reaper has. 

Reaper is easy to play... I'm confused to exactly why yoy think it isn't. 60% of its rotations or more is purely auto attack based, unless we are discussing condi reaper here. 

This is wildly normal. Animation cancelling exists in every proffession quite literally, its very normal if we are talking maximising dps. 

And yeah same with soulbeast. 

Outside your first burst, if yoy screw up your ability timings you will gut your second burst and tank your dps also lol. 

Animation cancelling is done in every build? It means ending a Animation early and yoy can do this with any ability with a Animation on its end part. 

Your correct, its damage sucks. But no every proffessoon in the game will require yoy to learn what you can and cannot cancel to speed up your rotations, and it isn't a massive time investment. Reapers ability rotation is like 8 keys wide. How hard is it to remember a few of those can be cancelled. 

Reaper sucks because, on loads of fights you cannot get the uptime in shroud due to lack of monsters to kill, its damage Is extremely low and it quite literally loses dps everytime you take damage. And since sustain nerfs it prolly wouldn't get 34k in a live fight anymore because its shroud uptime got even worse. 

Edited June 13, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[ZDragon.3046]

19 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Reaper is easy to play... I'm confused to exactly why yoy think it isn't. 60% of its rotations or more is purely auto attack based, unless we are discussing condi reaper here. 

 

While I agree its easy to play i kinda got to say we are finding out due to all the low impact builds having the spot light put on them that most of every classes dps is purely auto attack with maybe exceptions being power berserker where you for a limited time do infact push f1 kinda more than your auto key and perhaps elementalist builds.  Every other class though... you if you really look you will noticed that your auto makes up a very very very very large % of your damage reaper is not really an exclusive in that regard. 

 

Im not agreeing with the idea that reaper is harder to play than soul beast (not that soul beast its hard either) 

[Obtena.7952]

2 hours ago, ZDragon.3046 said:

I never said reaper specific traits i said traits related to reapers dps this includes core traits like close to death which has not been changed basically sense the games release. I question if traits that do nothing for the first 50% of the fight should remain at this point. 

0 value for the first 50% of combat 

That's a great example of what I'm talking about. The consequence of traits designed like Close to Death are minimal in PVE ... you always have to pass through that last 50% mob HP, so the overall DPS increase of this trait is 10%, assuming you aren't changing your performance at 50% mob HP. That's a very respectable DPS increase, especially considering it's percentage based. 

I think these kinds of backloaded traits are intended to recognize the value of accelerating the demise of an opponent for competitive modes. Yup, it's definitely back loaded and from a PVE perspective, you wonder why but it's not an accident. You have to think of the intention to why Anet did that. 

Quote

Then we have things like signet of spite which also more or less has not changed from the games release which in comparison to the newly designed signets on mechanist which offer % increases to strike damage instead of flat numerical power increases are undoubtedly outdated. 

Again, think about the intent. I look at SoS or signets as a whole and think ... OK this is one of those things where Anet really wants to push people using shroud and Signets of Suffering trait. That's not uncommon in Anet's design approach for classes ... there are tons of things that really get a boost if you play the way Anet intends something to be played. 

As for the power vs. % boost ... it's not unreasonable to think the intent there is to make sure SoS is ALSO boosted by other % modifiers properly. That wouldn't happen if SoS was a %-based DPS modifier. 

If you start to ask yourself why instead of jumping to the conclusion it's wrong, you too can get better insight to how the game works. 

 

Edited June 13, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Puck.3697]

1 hour ago, ZDragon.3046 said:

While I agree its easy to play i kinda got to say we are finding out due to all the low impact builds having the spot light put on them that most of every classes dps is purely auto attack with maybe exceptions being power berserker where you for a limited time do infact push f1 kinda more than your auto key and perhaps elementalist builds.  Every other class though... you if you really look you will noticed that your auto makes up a very very very very large % of your damage reaper is not really an exclusive in that regard. 

 

Im not agreeing with the idea that reaper is harder to play than soul beast (not that soul beast its hard either) 

I main ele, it's auto attack builds aren't great rly. 

Also I'd also say only mech and mirage were rly showing low intensity builds over 30k? Also while true.. their optimised rotations use alot more abilities realistically.

I mean to compare reapers full rotation to low intensity Builds seems abit wrong. Although reaper isn't alone in this boat ofcourse. 

Willbender / condi virtuoso and thief builds generally all are very low in keystrokes as far as builds go. 

But yes low intensity does show basically every proffession can easily swing in 20k off auto attacks alone realistically minimum and some scaling far higher. 

Although alot of these low intensity builds were also only shown as far as a golem, not in live practice. 

 

Edited June 13, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[ZDragon.3046]

2 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That's a great example of what I'm talking about. The consequence of traits designed like Close to Death are minimal in PVE ... you always have to pass through that last 50% mob HP, so the overall DPS increase of this trait is 10%, assuming you aren't changing your performance at 50% mob HP. That's a very respectable DPS increase, especially considering it's percentage based. 

I think these kinds of backloaded traits are intended to recognize the value of accelerating the demise of an opponent for competitive modes. Yup, it's definitely back loaded and from a PVE perspective, you wonder why but it's not an accident. You have to think of the intention to why Anet did that. 

Again, think about the intent. I look at SoS or signets as a whole and think ... OK this is one of those things where Anet really wants to push people using shroud and Signets of Suffering trait. That's not uncommon in Anet's design approach for classes ... there are tons of things that really get a boost if you play the way Anet intends something to be played. 

As for the power vs. % boost ... it's not unreasonable to think the intent there is to make sure SoS is ALSO boosted by other % modifiers properly. That wouldn't happen if SoS was a %-based DPS modifier. 

If you start to ask yourself why instead of jumping to the conclusion it's wrong, you too can get better insight to how the game works. 

 

Respectable does not make it outdated, Again Im not going to do these mental gymnastics with you.

You are free to think how you think the game works in your interpretation and thats fine but not everyone is going to think from that perspective. The key words that you used in your own statements just now were "I look at" the way you look at something is not the way everyone else looks at it. No where in my words did I say "Singet of spite is wrong."

I don't think it matters what I say as you will have a reason for saying "no" because your method of thinking sees nothing wrong with it at the moment thus nothing should change.... which is fine for your perspective however your perspective is not the finite perspective that everyone shares not matter how you try word it. 

I like to think I understand the game just fine. What I dont understand is why you think that I think everything is wrong or that I dont have insight on how the game works. But thats a whole mess of a conversation i actually DO NOT want to have with you.

Its been a pleasant chat but we dont agree, though I do appreciate you explaining your perspective of things to me for a bit better context as to why you dont approve of things. Lets call it here though.

[ZDragon.3046]

2 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

I main ele, it's auto attack builds aren't great rly. 

Also I'd also say only mech and mirage were rly showing low intensity builds over 30k? Also while true.. their optimised rotations use alot more abilities realistically.

I mean to compare reapers full rotation to low intensity Builds seems abit wrong. Although reaper isn't alone in this boat ofcourse. 

Willbender / condi virtuoso and thief builds generally all are very low in keystrokes as far as builds go. 

But yes low intensity does show basically every proffession can easily swing in 20k off auto attacks alone realistically minimum and some scaling far higher. 

Although alot of these low intensity builds were also only shown as far as a golem, not in live practice. 

 

I like to think you get the same result as full rotation based builds in live practice.

The numbers go down a little bit from what you see on the golem due to phase transitions and such. So long as the player knows how the fight generally goes and they have the proper boons applied their damage should hold up fairly well possibly better on low intensity builds because you dont have as many big cooldowns to whiff if a boss jumps a way or goes invuln. You cant really wast dps if most of your dps comes from auto you know what i mean. 

 

That said there are more professions where autoing is the majority of the damage and fewer like ele where its not. I think the low intensity stuff surprises people because they dont realize how much they auto in their own rotations alot of the time. Its just obvious with reaper lol. If anything counting the number of times you auto on reaper is a part of actually learning reaper (or at least thats how I did it when i first started raiding and such years ago) 

[Obtena.7952]

46 minutes ago, ZDragon.3046 said:

Respectable does not make it outdated.

Sure, but both of those things are reasons to not change Close to Death DPS modifier. I'm not saying it can't change, but certainly not because it's outdated. That's not even a relevant qualifier. What's relevant is if it's effective and if people use it. 

Quote

You are free to think how you think the game works in your interpretation and thats fine but not everyone is going to think from that perspective.

That's fine, but this isn't about an interpretation; it's not a work of art. This is about recognizing that Anet's design intent should be the primary consideration when you think about why things work a certain way in the game, especially if you want those things changed. Ignore that intent as you please, but don't mistake your willingness to ignore that intent as the need for Anet to change something you don't like. 

Again, Close to Death trait is a good example of that. That trait is designed like that for a reason and that reason you are purposefully ignoring to push your ideas of how you want the game to work. You point out it's been like that for 10 years? You didn't even think why that is ... you just gave it the outdated label and concluded that warrants a change on it.

On the other hand, I'm going to make a very solid assumption it's been like that for 10 years because it works how Anet wants it to work and there isn't anything actually unsatisfactory or unreasonable with getting a 10% overall DPS increase.  

Edited June 13, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[ZDragon.3046]

30 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Sure, but both of those things are reasons to not change Close to Death DPS modifier. I'm not saying it can't change, but certainly not because it's outdated. That's not even a relevant qualifier. What's relevant is if it's effective and if people use it. 

That's fine, but this isn't about an interpretation; it's not a work of art. This is about recognizing that Anet's design intent should be the primary consideration when you think about why things work a certain way in the game, especially if you want those things changed. Ignore that intent as you please, but don't mistake your willingness to ignore that intent as the need for Anet to change something you don't like. 

Again, Close to Death trait is a good example of that. That trait is designed like that for a reason and that reason you are purposefully ignoring to push your ideas of how you want the game to work. You point out it's been like that for 10 years? You didn't even think why that is ... you just gave it the outdated label and concluded that warrants a change on it.

On the other hand, I'm going to make a very solid assumption it's been like that for 10 years because it works how Anet wants it to work and there isn't anything actually unsatisfactory or unreasonable with getting a 10% overall DPS increase.  

🤷‍♂️ Potato patato.... relevancy is a matter of perspective we have gone over this. 

I didnt just give it anything the oudated title without thought. I picked specific things that literally has hardly changed from day one. Dont take it as me saying they are bad or not viable as they are take it as me saying they could be better... YES I KNOW YOU DONT THINK THEY NEED TO BE PLEASE DONT GO BACK TO THAT AGAIN ITS FRUSTRATING TO HEAR YOU SAY IT AGAIN. 

We dont know what anets design intent is or will be or how it will change or how much they consider player suggestions when making said changes to it.... thus i will not think the same way you do.... Saying i should only do things based on that uncertainty is kind of silly imo. You can do them that way if you like but I will not until anet tells me directly with a big fat yes or no we will or will not do something in hard confirmation text. It might not change if people never talk about changing it so I will talk about it and see where it goes.

[Puck.3697]

1 hour ago, ZDragon.3046 said:

I like to think you get the same result as full rotation based builds in live practice.

The numbers go down a little bit from what you see on the golem due to phase transitions and such. So long as the player knows how the fight generally goes and they have the proper boons applied their damage should hold up fairly well possibly better on low intensity builds because you dont have as many big cooldowns to whiff if a boss jumps a way or goes invuln. You cant really wast dps if most of your dps comes from auto you know what i mean. 

 

That said there are more professions where autoing is the majority of the damage and fewer like ele where its not. I think the low intensity stuff surprises people because they dont realize how much they auto in their own rotations alot of the time. Its just obvious with reaper lol. If anything counting the number of times you auto on reaper is a part of actually learning reaper (or at least thats how I did it when i first started raiding and such years ago) 

 

I dont think you understood. I'm not saying there's a dps loss what I'm saying is those builds are incredibly niche. 

The mech build not only requires you to have a ally dedicated to supporting your pet, but also requires you to micro manage a specific distance between it and the boss in every situation. 

The soulbeast build is condi only. And wouldn't be taken, soulbeast is a strong power candidate due to its super high power burst dps and there are quite literally no alternatives to this for power soulbeast. 

The berserker build. Is literally just berserker. It's not a long or complex rotation. 

Mirage is the closest your going to get to a functional low intensity build which can get near the actual numbers of dps builds. 

But the point I'm making is: 

You can't intentionally take a dumbed down version of a build to compare to reaper for the sakes of making it equal. 

If we are talking a optimised reaper rotation. It should be compared against a optimised rotations of other proffessions. 

Otherwise we should be looking at low intensity reaper builds to compare this realistically, yoy can't lower the field of comparisons to suit this.. 

The reason multiple low intensity builds work. Is because the exact reason yly stated. 

Easy to play speccs are put in the spotlight. The specc itself is low intensity by its physical design. 

Thief quite literally only uses 1 ability out of its entire weapon kit, WB doesn't use weapon swap and works on a priority list of 5 abilities while pressing a F ability off CD, mirage quite literally spams a dodge to activate a effect on a auto attack. 

However. There's a reason why all the low intensity builds are primarily all spammed around the same sorta speccs. 

Yes auto attacks generate alot of dps, also boons are over 50% Of your dps also. So it's a no brainer if yoy throw all the vital boons on you will naturally do alot of the dps avaliable. 

But there's lots of.speccs low intensity builds dont exist for. And berserker soulbeast is one of those. 

Edited June 13, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Obtena.7952]

2 hours ago, ZDragon.3046 said:

🤷‍♂️ Potato patato.... relevancy is a matter of perspective we have gone over this. 

Let's put it another way ... there are lots of perspectives possible, but they do not have equal relevance. The most relevant perspective for changing the game is based on how close someone gets to understanding how Anet wants the game to work and their intent. 

I mean, you are right ... we don't know what the actual intent is because we rarely get told what it is. That's not a reason to not try and understanding it by at LEAST asking why Anet do things a certain way to understand there IS intent there to try to figure it out. If you want to be relevant in change discussions, you do this. If you don't, you just make up reasons for change that have no meaning. 

Close to Death is a great example of that happening right in front of you. Again, why is Close to Death DPS buff backloaded? There is a reason and based on the fact that it's been that way for 10 years, it's probably a good and it probably works and is effective. I have little reason to think being 'outdated' is going to be a relevant qualifier to change that. What does that even mean outdated? Is the trait somehow not effective compared to similar GM damage traits? (It most certainly is) or it's fallen out of use (I doubt this highly)? 🤔What is is about being 'outdated' that implies it needs to change? I don't see it. 

Edited June 13, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[anbujackson.9564]

12 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

 

The mech build not only requires you to have a ally dedicated to supporting your pet, but also requires you to micro manage a specific distance between it and the boss in every situation. 

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shift_Signet

It doesnt. It only needs one in the training area.

[Puck.3697]

1 minute ago, anbujackson.9564 said:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shift_Signet

It doesnt. It only needs one in the training area.

If yoy watch the video of the dude doing in Raids he was defiantly was manually positioning the mech to maximise its dps. 

It was during teapots contest if low intensity builds. He was doing 36k dps via it. But did require alot of micro management however outside of that only used 2 buttons. 

And bosses move more then once every 25 seconds. Everytime the boss is moved yoy have to move your mech lol. 

Edited June 14, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[anbujackson.9564]

5 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

If yoy watch the video of the dude doing in Raids he was defiantly was manually positioning the mech to maximise its dps. 

It was during teapots contest if low intensity builds. He was doing 36k dps via it. But did require alot of micro management however outside of that only used 2 buttons. 

I was referencing to your statement of an ally needing to support the mech, which is wrong in a real fight.

Positioning needs micromanagement? Absolutely. Cant keep your mech meleeing a boss if the whole group is not in its radius (like on kaineng sniper phase). Correct positioning is a big issue in general though. 

Edited June 14, 2022 by anbujackson.9564

[Axl.8924]

12 hours ago, ZDragon.3046 said:

🤷‍♂️ Potato patato.... relevancy is a matter of perspective we have gone over this. 

I didnt just give it anything the oudated title without thought. I picked specific things that literally has hardly changed from day one. Dont take it as me saying they are bad or not viable as they are take it as me saying they could be better... YES I KNOW YOU DONT THINK THEY NEED TO BE PLEASE DONT GO BACK TO THAT AGAIN ITS FRUSTRATING TO HEAR YOU SAY IT AGAIN. 

We dont know what anets design intent is or will be or how it will change or how much they consider player suggestions when making said changes to it.... thus i will not think the same way you do.... Saying i should only do things based on that uncertainty is kind of silly imo. You can do them that way if you like but I will not until anet tells me directly with a big fat yes or no we will or will not do something in hard confirmation text. It might not change if people never talk about changing it so I will talk about it and see where it goes.

 

Reapers likely will never get buffs until they fully sacrifice their hp from their shroud the curse of being so extra tanky. Only way is if they manage to make reaper completely glassy while in shroud and doing dps or doing dps outside of shroud instead of in shroud.

 

16 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

I main ele, it's auto attack builds aren't great rly. 

Also I'd also say only mech and mirage were rly showing low intensity builds over 30k? Also while true.. their optimised rotations use alot more abilities realistically.

I mean to compare reapers full rotation to low intensity Builds seems abit wrong. Although reaper isn't alone in this boat ofcourse. 

Willbender / condi virtuoso and thief builds generally all are very low in keystrokes as far as builds go. 

But yes low intensity does show basically every proffession can easily swing in 20k off auto attacks alone realistically minimum and some scaling far higher. 

Although alot of these low intensity builds were also only shown as far as a golem, not in live practice. 

 

 

Eles do a bit of dmg with the 1 on D/F unless it was changed then again there is a lot of piano hands. Not sure about Weaver though i do quite a bit of D/F though-

[Puck.3697]

5 minutes ago, Axl.8924 said:

 

Reapers likely will never get buffs until they fully sacrifice their hp from their shroud the curse of being so extra tanky. Only way is if they manage to make reaper completely glassy while in shroud and doing dps or doing dps outside of shroud instead of in shroud.

 

 

Eles do a bit of dmg with the 1 on D/F unless it was changed then again there is a lot of piano hands. Not sure about Weaver though i do quite a bit of D/F though-

Given the fact reapers build up is also so slow because of its second health bar effect, it'd prolly be a pro to see reaper takeb off 2 life bars alike scourge and harbinger and simply increase its sustain else where to compensate. 

Weaver I think these days can achieve 20k on a air build against a golem. But that is almost half of what a condi or hybrid weaver could put out really. 

Ofcourse 20k is high enough to do all content on however there's no doubt in that, but that's a game problem realistically that should be resolved 

Edited June 14, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[ZDragon.3046]

3 hours ago, Axl.8924 said:

 

Reapers likely will never get buffs until they fully sacrifice their hp from their shroud the curse of being so extra tanky. Only way is if they manage to make reaper completely glassy while in shroud and doing dps or doing dps outside of shroud instead of in shroud.

In pve shroud health hardly matters failing mechanics on newer content oneshots you all the same regardless if you have shroud or not. This is not pvp we are talking about so im not sure why you brought this up? 

People dont care about how tanky a reaper can be in pve so i can only assume you are referencing pvp and im not asking for pvp buffs im specifically thinking in terms of pvp heck im not even specifically thinking of things under reaper im thinking of some of the core traits that contribute to any power dps build.

[Puck.3697]

1 hour ago, ZDragon.3046 said:

In pve shroud health hardly matters failing mechanics on newer content oneshots you all the same regardless if you have shroud or not. This is not pvp we are talking about so im not sure why you brought this up? 

People dont care about how tanky a reaper can be in pve so i can only assume you are referencing pvp and im not asking for pvp buffs im specifically thinking in terms of pvp heck im not even specifically thinking of things under reaper im thinking of some of the core traits that contribute to any power dps build.

Ofcourse it should. 

And people do care, this is what led to the scourge issues. 

The concept of high dps + high sustain drives these proffessions into the top of meta due to being both rhe safest and fastest kill. 

 

[ZDragon.3046]

1 hour ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Ofcourse it should. 

And people do care, this is what led to the scourge issues. 

The concept of high dps + high sustain drives these proffessions into the top of meta due to being both rhe safest and fastest kill. 

 

Hmmmm nah i dont see that as the same thing. Scourge was a problem specifically because it was a support that was doing dps level damage and giving people 150% maximum hp with barrier. Which is a bit different from how standard shrouds work. Keep in mind while you can view shroud health as extra defensive utility it is also an offensive resource unlike scourges barrier which is just defensive utility and nothing more. 

There are some extreme key differences between barrier and shroud health which makes them considerably 2 different beast and should not be lumped together as being one and the same.

For example yes you can on vale guardian skip the green mechanic and have 80% of your hp nuked for doing so. Doing this with scourge barrier results in literally no negative the barrier did its job and your damage is uneffected. Ontop of this it was applied to several other players around you saving their health at the same time.

If you take the same logic to reaper your shroud gets obliterated and while you do survive the hit you lose basically all of your dps and your rotation is possibly thrown off for 2 -3 loops or more depending on how you catch the next green mechanic in your rotation. You actually do lose damage for using it as a defensive crutch because its also an offensive power resource. If it tanks a hit you cant do your burst properly.

You wont have high dps if you consistently use your shroud to survive hits like that ESPECIALLY WITH NEWER CONTENT.

Scourge is an extreme case because it lost nothing for using its sustain mechanic regardless if it decayed normally or got blown away by incoming dps. Reaper only had that case at one instance and that was when they change the greatsword trait to soul eater which was overtuned and worked in shroud at the time i think (this has sense been nerfed/ patched). These days though there is no risk of reaper doing anything remotely close to what scourge could do even with a dps buff. You wont see 4 or 5 dps slots being all reapers doing raid content because its the safest fastest kill option fact is its just not. You could give it a dps increase and you still wont see that. I struggle to see that even if you gave it one of the top 5 and to be frank I dont think anyone is asking for that much of a dps increase.

Long story short you use your shroud to survive big hits then you wont be fastest at killing. Shroud is used to be safe or to do fast dps you may pick one but not both.

 

Edited June 14, 2022 by ZDragon.3046

[Puck.3697]

2 hours ago, ZDragon.3046 said:

Hmmmm nah i dont see that as the same thing. Scourge was a problem specifically because it was a support that was doing dps level damage and giving people 150% maximum hp with barrier. Which is a bit different from how standard shrouds work. Keep in mind while you can view shroud health as extra defensive utility it is also an offensive resource unlike scourges barrier which is just defensive utility and nothing more

Here's the problem. 

You make reaper high sustain high dps. You then have to make Raids and strikes hit harder so the game doesn't just become easier and easier due to reaching a point of face tanking damage while outputting the dps of a glass cannon. 

When they put these buffs in they then make life harder on every other proffession because we sint got that sustain and now will die even faster at minor issue. 

You can't just ask to be a immortal 1 shotting machine. 

Your demand, will make another "ultra safe pug comp". Which will be horrible for those who once again don't wanna spend another 2 years playing necro because pugs demand it. 

Or have you forgotten things like elementalist have 11k hp base with no extra life bar have to survive the same mechanics as you? 

Edited June 14, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Axl.8924]

9 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Here's the problem. 

You make reaper high sustain high dps. You then have to make Raids and strikes hit harder so the game doesn't just become easier and easier due to reaching a point of face tanking damage while outputting the dps of a glass cannon. 

When they put these buffs in they then make life harder on every other proffession because we sint got that sustain and now will die even faster at minor issue. 

You can't just ask to be a immortal 1 shotting machine. 

Your demand, will make another "ultra safe pug comp". Which will be horrible for those who once again don't wanna spend another 2 years playing necro because pugs demand it. 

Or have you forgotten things like elementalist have 11k hp base with no extra life bar have to survive the same mechanics as you? 

especially when often tempest has to do things in close range while being squishy  and or mid range at most and piano hands.

Or when a  chronomancer has to sacrifice burst DPS to do a slow buildup dps while being glassy while doing it. Yeah thats def not fair.

Edited June 14, 2022 by Axl.8924

[ZDragon.3046]

6 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Here's the problem. 

You make reaper high sustain high dps. You then have to make Raids and strikes hit harder so the game doesn't just become easier and easier due to reaching a point of face tanking damage while outputting the dps of a glass cannon. 

When they put these buffs in they then make life harder on every other proffession because we sint got that sustain and now will die even faster at minor issue. 

You can't just ask to be a immortal 1 shotting machine. 

Your demand, will make another "ultra safe pug comp". Which will be horrible for those who once again don't wanna spend another 2 years playing necro because pugs demand it. 

Or have you forgotten things like elementalist have 11k hp base with no extra life bar have to survive the same mechanics as you? 

Thats already done so no you dont all the current raids already punish you heavily for taking unessesarry damage in shroud and in many cases you just straight up die. Im not sure what you are on about here. No one is asking for more reaper sustain lets get that right. Its a dps and most people are looking at general power dps increases and nothing thats gonna make reaper a top dps pick by any means (not something you use for speed running).

Raids strikes in EoD already hit hard enough as it is to the point that taking damage in shroud cost you damage because it nukes your shroud. If EoD releases raids you wont have to worry about things hitting hard cause they are likely to already be designed to hit hard from a base line. The idea that life will be harder on every other profession because of reaper is false and very misguided perception to have.

No one asked to be an immortal one shotting machine. not sure where you got this.

Ultra safe pug comps include something like 2 scourges not reapers why is reaper a concern???? Or did you miss the bit about how scourge can share its defensive utility with other players and have that extra hp blasted away by incoming damage and lose no dps for it?

I understand your annoyance at elementalist smaller health pool which is the real meat of where all this misguided information is coming from. However ele does in most cases outclass reaper in dps when played effectively and again im not sure anyone is asking for reaper to actually out dps ele builds (it certainly wont when it comes to condition build options) But i think you are going way off on this one.

[Puck.3697]

24 minutes ago, ZDragon.3046 said:

Ultra safe pug comps include something like 2 scourges not reapers why is reaper a concern???? Or did you miss the bit about how scourge can share its defensive utility with other players and have that extra hp blasted away by incoming damage and lose no dps for it?

I understand your annoyance at elementalist smaller health pool which is the real meat of where all this misguided information is coming from. However ele does in most cases outclass reaper in dps when played effectively and again im not sure anyone is asking for reaper to actually out dps ele builds (it certainly wont when it comes to condition build options) But i think you are going way off on this one

Since scourge nerfs, it's actually alot less existent now. However that doesn't mean you need to stack how many proffessions can face tank. 

I have no annoyance at elementalists hp pool. If yoy ask me all dps builds should be made as squishy as elementalist. 

I don't understand why anet feel the need to create and raid and ensure that proffessions are so power crept in both defense and utility to trivialise the content.

You should have a high hp pool and a high dps potential, as is the norm in other mmorpgs also. Its normal. For dps to hard punished for taking damage they shouldn't.  

As I said in my first post. I don't think reaper should have a second hp bar. Nor did I like spectre got one either. 

Edited June 14, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[ZDragon.3046]

7 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Since scourge nerfs, it's actually alot less existent now. However that doesn't mean you need to stack how many proffessions can face tank. 

I have no annoyance at elementalists hp pool. If yoy ask me all dps builds should be made as squishy as elementalist. 

I don't understand why anet feel the need to create and raid and ensure that proffessions are so power crept in both defense and utility to trivialise the content.

You should have a high hp pool and a high dps potential, as is the norm in other mmorpgs also. Its normal. For dps to hard punished for taking damage they shouldn't.  

As I said in my first post. I don't think reaper should have a second hp bar. Nor did I like spectre got one either. 

Anet made the classes with different hp pools because their utility, profession, and weapon skills are mechanically different. Scourge is only seen less because mechanist exsist in addtion to the fact that a single scourge cant protect the other 9 players anymore you would need 2 scourges which hurts role compression far too much. The nerfs a actually a small part of it.

 

Necromancers high base hp is directly tied to its lack of mobility, double edged corruption skills, and lack of hard defenses like blocks or invulns.

Ele on the other hand has much more mobility, a whole attunement for active healing in addition to its healing skills, and active defenses. The same can kind of be said for mesmer....

Now i know what you are thinking those things dont really apply because you never take such active defenses in raid content as a dps.... this is true but its part of why anet designed the classes with different amounts of hp. 

IF they did that they would also need to make all the utility skills similar mechanically which intern makes all the classes too similar to one another just with different visual flavor if you ask me. 

Reaper still kind of needs it otherwise you would have to change the utility skills to be better than shouts. Remember most classes that dont have second health bars with their elite specs or even base specs have utility with stronger active defenses or considerably increased mobility to make up for it. Reaper technically still would not have those without the health bar.

 

Harbinger does not have a second health bar and has a maximum hp nerfing built in mechanic tied to its shroud AND does not have active defenses built into its utility kit. The only thing it gets is A SINGLE extra mobility skill in its shroud kit and much more condi dps and it has the option to do quickness support. the damage gains reaper would need to justify only having damage as its option for having 0 health protection would be so unreasonable that i seriously doubt anyone would approve of it. 

[Puck.3697]

1 hour ago, ZDragon.3046 said:

Anet made the classes with different hp pools because their utility, profession, and weapon skills are mechanically different. Scourge is only seen less because mechanist exsist in addtion to the fact that a single scourge cant protect the other 9 players anymore you would need 2 scourges which hurts role compression far too much. The nerfs a actually a small part of it.

 

Necromancers high base hp is directly tied to its lack of mobility, double edged corruption skills, and lack of hard defenses like blocks or invulns.

Ele on the other hand has much more mobility, a whole attunement for active healing in addition to its healing skills, and active defenses. The same can kind of be said for mesmer....

Now i know what you are thinking those things dont really apply because you never take such active defenses in raid content as a dps.... this is true but its part of why anet designed the classes with different amounts of hp. 

IF they did that they would also need to make all the utility skills similar mechanically which intern makes all the classes too similar to one another just with different visual flavor if you ask me. 

Reaper still kind of needs it otherwise you would have to change the utility skills to be better than shouts. Remember most classes that dont have second health bars with their elite specs or even base specs have utility with stronger active defenses or considerably increased mobility to make up for it. Reaper technically still would not have those without the health bar.

 

Harbinger does not have a second health bar and has a maximum hp nerfing built in mechanic tied to its shroud AND does not have active defenses built into its utility kit. The only thing it gets is A SINGLE extra mobility skill in its shroud kit and much more condi dps and it has the option to do quickness support. the damage gains reaper would need to justify only having damage as its option for having 0 health protection would be so unreasonable that i seriously doubt anyone would approve of it. 

I obviously am not saying let's just add nothing but change everyone's hp to identical numbers. 

What I'm saying is I don't like the concept of the second life bars. 

Due to the fact its tied to a sustain mechanic means it's been gradually nerfed in regards of its gain. Because it has a DR effect on it its drain has been rapid Nd for balancing then taking any damage also reduces its effectiveness. 

Necromancer has 0 active sustain to stack where harbingers in a weird place where they nerfed it and it was terrible then they buffed it and now its overpowered. 

I find the way harbinger and scourge progressed to not have second health bars but forms of active sustain and the ability to spend its points freely in dps or support instead of continously using as little as possible while upholding its boons by literally using 1 ability every now and then and auto attack spamming. 

Reaper is pure melee. It has limited mobility you don't have to strip its second health bar and say GG. You could give it active sustain and more damage realistically. 

Yoy could add damage to its core kit so it isn't trapped in hitting like a wet noodle prior shroud. There's plenty of ways to add sustain. Life leech (which is thematic to the proffession) is one of many examples. Aswell as bolstering its utility options.