Why PVE necros can't have nice things

[ZDragon.3046]

33 minutes ago, Axl.8924 said:

 

One of the advantages is ranged Burst dps though on harbringer. If you can cc and necros are very strong at CC you can help prevent enemies from getting away plus you can literally vomit condies and you got medium range on harbringer.

This applies to every class though not just necromancer every class has access to more or less very good cc options even on their meta builds if its not something hard like stun or daze then its done with immobilize etc. Ive heard talk that the current way the harb shroud 5 functions is a bit over the top and im some what open to agree with that. Generally though strong cc options are not exclusive to the necromancer profession. 

[ZDragon.3046]

1 hour ago, Daddy.8125 said:

i've played over 700 games this season alone. i dont underestimate it, i bounce between gold and plat are realistically and gone against even boyce etc etc

I do not see Catalysts Regularly at all, i'm very often the only ele in the team. i log on every day. i pvp every day, i do very little other then thatm realistically.

and im on Mixtures of hours.. sometimes at 6am.. other times after 5pm.. sometims throughout the day period.

Understandable could have just been a weird few days for me. 

That said there is not much you can do that will change some form of necromancer from being S tier because its one of the corner stones that anet uses to balance the game particularly in competitive modes (i hate that they do that personally) but its what they do. Skill damage gets cut for other bloat things like built in corruption additional cripple etc due to how they see the necromancer class as being. In truth if necro was as mobile and even more squish lets assume its on equal footing no matter what build you use with ele in terms of hp. You would still have to deal with them in every game. On top of that they might need to keep that damage or have even more skill bloat due to the other stuff anet has to build into them based on how they treat the class as the games boon manager. You would end up with a situation where you dont see less of them. They might be slightly easier to kill but kill you even easier than they already do as a result of being just as squishy...

Realistically if you want my honest opinion, and you dont have to agree, but..... i do not honestly think there is a way people will ever not see necro as over performing in pvp modes. hints the OP title in a weird way "cant have nice things."

Consider the following

Reaper was annoying because it had good melee damage with shroud health but it lost its ability to be effective at range. Anet later made the shroud drain heavier and that still was not enough for people kinda just let it be... 

Anet gave us scourge and took the shroud health away something people wanted anet to do for years.... this loss was in trade for barrier and area control and that was a balance nightmare no matter what they did it over the course of the years.

Anet tried again and gave us harbinger with no shroud health and no barrier and still no hard defenses like blocks or evades instead they made it the most risky by just giving it damage now people think the damage is too high... despite their being other professions that are capable fo matching it in terms of damage (some doing far better burst damage mind you) there really is no happy medium for this class because its foundation is built to the balance of the other 8 professions and the boons they splatter. Its likely always going to feel like the necromancer is over performing in some aspect or another because of this.

Edited June 15, 2022 by ZDragon.3046

[Puck.3697]

1 hour ago, ZDragon.3046 said:

Realistically if you want my honest opinion, and you dont have to agree, but..... i do not honestly think there is a way people will ever not see necro as over performing in pvp modes. hints the OP title in a weird way "cant have nice things."

Consider the following

Reaper was annoying because it had good melee damage with shroud health but it lost its ability to be effective at range. Anet later made the shroud drain heavier and that still was not enough for people kinda just let it be... 

Anet gave us scourge and took the shroud health away something people wanted anet to do for years.... this loss was in trade for barrier and area control and that was a balance nightmare no matter what they did it over the course of the years.

Anet tried again and gave us harbinger with no shroud health and no barrier and still no hard defenses like blocks or evades instead they made it the most risky by just giving it damage now people think the damage is too high... despite their being other professions that are capable fo matching it in terms of damage (some doing far better burst damage mind you) there really is no happy medium for this class because its foundation is built to the balance of the other 8 professions and the boons they splatter. Its likely always going to feel like the necromancer is over performing in some aspect or another because of this.

i can agree here to a extent.

I have, for a long time advocated imho Scourge and Harbinger are huge advancements in the way necromancers played. they arent auto attack based, they use their abilities (even if scourge isd just a priority list) and they generally have a more engaging rotation comparitively to early necromancer.

I want Reaper and Core to lose Shroud health, as a Trade off to gaining active Defense and some more mobility into the Proffessions kit themselves, as i think there are cooler ways to thematically give necromancer sustain. the most common u see is Simply life leech. Necromancers thematically have always Damaged Enemies to heal themselves.

i dont want necromancer gutted. I just think if Harbinger and Scourge werent held back by its core foundation of double hp bar in trade of lack of mobility and Active defense. they could be more diverse then they current are, espically in SPVP Modes realistically. the likelyhood that we'd see such a revamp is unlikely... but i do think the fact scourge and harbinger have really thrown away its core mechanic in alot of ways as created a Dynamic where they're Overpowered or simply bad.

Look at Scourge. Scourge got so strong due to its Barrier support build it got absolutely annihilated from content. because as u said, the lack of defense and mobility options as the trade off for Double hp simply didnt work for it, so it ended up a barrier support hybrid which became horrific in SPVP Dynamics.

however, it completely obliterated a harder to play and More balanced version of Scourge which was DPS based in the process.

If its mechanics didnt have to carry it 3/4s of the way to finish line due to the fact nothing at core level can be adapted due to Double hp bars on core and Reaper, i think balancing scourge in a Better way would have realistically been avaliable.

the reason why people lately have been screeching about how OP Necro is in SPVP Enviroments is because it has been. because its Mechanics in scourge and harbinger have been soooo Huge realistically. but its to support the fact its core functions conflict with its design thats problematic and as i stated.. it wouldnt suprise me if the end result is it gets absolutely gutted instead of trying some sorta larger rework to make Necromancer Less Extreme.

Edited June 15, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[ZDragon.3046]

15 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

i can agree here to a extent.

I have, for a long time advocated imho Scourge and Harbinger are huge advancements in the way necromancers played. they arent auto attack based, they use their abilities (even if scourge isd just a priority list) and they generally have a more engaging rotation comparitively to early necromancer.

I want Reaper and Core to lose Shroud health, as a Trade off to gaining active Defense and some more mobility into the Proffessions kit themselves, as i think there are cooler ways to thematically give necromancer sustain. the most common u see is Simply life leech. Necromancers thematically have always Damaged Enemies to heal themselves.

i dont want necromancer gutted. I just think if Harbinger and Scourge werent held back by its core foundation of double hp bar in trade of lack of mobility and Active defense. they could be more diverse then they current are, espically in SPVP Modes realistically. the likelyhood that we'd see such a revamp is unlikely... but i do think the fact scourge and harbinger have really thrown away its core mechanic in alot of ways as created a Dynamic where they're Overpowered or simply bad.

Look at Scourge. Scourge got so strong due to its Barrier support build it got absolutely annihilated from content. because as u said, the lack of defense and mobility options as the trade off for Double hp simply didnt work for it, so it ended up a barrier support hybrid which became horrific in SPVP Dynamics.

however, it completely obliterated a harder to play and More balanced version of Scourge which was DPS based in the process.

If its mechanics didnt have to carry it 3/4s of the way to finish line due to the fact nothing at core level can be adapted due to Double hp bars on core and Reaper, i think balancing scourge in a Better way would have realistically been avaliable.

the reason why people lately have been screeching about how OP Necro is in SPVP Enviroments is because it has been. because its Mechanics in scourge and harbinger have been soooo Huge realistically. but its to support the fact its core functions conflict with its design thats problematic and as i stated.. it wouldnt suprise me if the end result is it gets absolutely gutted instead of trying some sorta larger rework to make Necromancer Less Extreme.

I dont know I think its a cool concept of having some of the necromancer sets keep the shroud health especially something like core that would not be able to perform without it. Mobility wont be the only thing the first two need to actually perform if they didnt have the shroud health of course this is my opinion.  Reaper would be a bit closer to working with out shroud health but it would still need some noticeable improvements to possibly its damage and its utility if it was to lose the shroud health. 

Core would need a complete overhaul entirely its too slow and its shroud abilities are not aggressive enough to warrant takening it away in its current form. 

I do think you are right about scourge it threw away the core mechanic of necromancer which is part of why I disliked it from the day it launched. Harbinger on the other hand took a step back and kept the core mechanic of a shroud which is nice because you still enter this new form with different abilities and such but you dont have the health protection anymore. ITs ideally the peek of how necromancer elites going forward should be designed but that means letting them be powerful at what they do if they are stripping away the health protection which means people will have to get use to a necro that does alot of damage or maybe in the future is actually a viable team support. I dont see anet gutting necro as a whole but i do see them maybe killing death magic and reworking that and perhaps killing blood magic and reworking that. Death magic which is part of the meta build at the moment was suppose to get a rework like a year or two ago and it never happened. Anet already said "We dont like traits that grant toughness." and dm does that they even mentioned that it was going to get a rework but they didnt have anything flushed out at the time about how it would be reworked. People really seem to feel that dm is the problem with current meta harbinger builds and less with harbinger itself. As far as its damage output goes i think thats something people should get use to for having no health protection its basically any other ranged class now. 

[Puck.3697]

47 minutes ago, ZDragon.3046 said:

I dont know I think its a cool concept of having some of the necromancer sets keep the shroud health especially something like core that would not be able to perform without it. Mobility wont be the only thing the first two need to actually perform if they didnt have the shroud health of course this is my opinion.  Reaper would be a bit closer to working with out shroud health but it would still need some noticeable improvements to possibly its damage and its utility if it was to lose the shroud health. 

Core would need a complete overhaul entirely its too slow and its shroud abilities are not aggressive enough to warrant takening it away in its current form. 

I do think you are right about scourge it threw away the core mechanic of necromancer which is part of why I disliked it from the day it launched. Harbinger on the other hand took a step back and kept the core mechanic of a shroud which is nice because you still enter this new form with different abilities and such but you dont have the health protection anymore. ITs ideally the peek of how necromancer elites going forward should be designed but that means letting them be powerful at what they do if they are stripping away the health protection which means people will have to get use to a necro that does alot of damage or maybe in the future is actually a viable team support. I dont see anet gutting necro as a whole but i do see them maybe killing death magic and reworking that and perhaps killing blood magic and reworking that. Death magic which is part of the meta build at the moment was suppose to get a rework like a year or two ago and it never happened. Anet already said "We dont like traits that grant toughness." and dm does that they even mentioned that it was going to get a rework but they didnt have anything flushed out at the time about how it would be reworked. People really seem to feel that dm is the problem with current meta harbinger builds and less with harbinger itself. As far as its damage output goes i think thats something people should get use to for having no health protection its basically any other ranged class now. 

The problem is if they did that now they'd likely delete harbinger from spvp realistically which is the issue. 

You either leave harbinger as it is or its going to get annihilated realistically. 

[Dadnir.5038]

56 minutes ago, ZDragon.3046 said:

As far as its damage output goes i think thats something people should get use to for having no health protection its basically any other ranged class now.

I disagree, a character spec'ed for survivability shouldn't be able to dish out as much damage as harbinger do when he does. I believe that's the core of the issue.

[ZDragon.3046]

8 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I disagree, a character spec'ed for survivability shouldn't be able to dish out as much damage as harbinger do when he does. I believe that's the core of the issue.

thats not a harbinger problem though thats a death magic problem. and genera pvp amulet selection choice problem.  The damage needs to be. good for not having the health protection whats the point of removing the defensive aspect from the profession mechanic if you are gonna gut the damage to be lesser than the versions that dont lose that. 

[ZDragon.3046]

18 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

The problem is if they did that now they'd likely delete harbinger from spvp realistically which is the issue. 

You either leave harbinger as it is or its going to get annihilated realistically. 

By nuking death magic? Im not so sure honestly 

Death magic helps with sustain but its not so good that harbinger wont function without it the grand problem of spvp in the first place is how anet is is ok letting people turtle up while getting out as much damage as they can this applies not just to necromancer but to most other classes. 

Part of it is the remaining amulet choices the other part is the game mode itself being based around capture and hold which tends to make people consider surviving as long as possible rather than building to kill. 

[Puck.3697]

11 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I disagree, a character spec'ed for survivability shouldn't be able to dish out as much damage as harbinger do when he does. I believe that's the core of the issue.

I'd say harbinger does less damage then willbender and untamed. I think the larger problem is so many speccs are now left behind by power creep it seems that way. 

I'd say it's more its burst damage though. It doesnt feel meaty in its normal hits. Its when it drops the Elixirs and intiates its burst rotation with shroud abilities It starts battering hp bars. 

[Puck.3697]

3 minutes ago, ZDragon.3046 said:

By nuking death magic? Im not so sure honestly 

Death magic helps with sustain but its not so good that harbinger wont function without it the grand problem of spvp in the first place is how anet is is ok letting people turtle up while getting out as much damage as they can this applies not just to necromancer but to most other classes. 

Part of it is the remaining amulet choices the other part is the game mode itself being based around capture and hold which tends to make people consider surviving as long as possible rather than building to kill. 

I think if harbinger lost its sustain it'd be too easily focused. It's already quite reliant on a support existing to help it through its periods of being focused down. 

If yoy were to zap out more of its sustain it'd prolly become far too dependent and u would just replace it with another WB or possibly bring untamed in 

[ZDragon.3046]

4 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

I think if harbinger lost its sustain it'd be too easily focused. It's already quite reliant on a support existing to help it through its periods of being focused down. 

If yoy were to zap out more of its sustain it'd prolly become far too dependent and u would just replace it with another WB or possibly bring untamed in 

I doubt this would happen we have to remember that necromancer (unfortunately) by its design is a corner stone of the competitive modes so even if its sustain got hit via targeting death magic which is what the meta builds get it from it will likely still be played so long as it keeps its damage. Now if we hit both its sustain and its damage to the point where reaper out performs it in both while being more or less still pretty glass then we have to question why play it at all when reaper keeps its health protection.
A picture like this is what many people will have to realize they shouldnt expect its damage to go lower than reapers or in spvp's case even core necro. That would be unreasonable for its design. 

[Dadnir.5038]

56 minutes ago, ZDragon.3046 said:

thats not a harbinger problem though thats a death magic problem. and genera pvp amulet selection choice problem.  The damage needs to be. good for not having the health protection whats the point of removing the defensive aspect from the profession mechanic if you are gonna gut the damage to be lesser than the versions that dont lose that. 

Nope, that isn't a death magic problem. Death magic provide survivability and that's all. Harbinger is the one that bring the damage. To put it simply, the base damage of the harbinger is so high that sacrificing a whole traitline for defense don't put enough of a dent in it's damage output. Keep in mind that the harbinger's sustain is only held together by protection and weakness, nothing more, nothing less. You can have the same protection and weakness uptime with elementalist and ranger yet the sacrifice to the damage output for them is such that it's not an issue.

Edited June 16, 2022 by Dadnir.5038

[Bakeneko.5826]

57 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Nope, that isn't a death magic problem. Death magic provide survivability and that's all. Harbinger is the one that bring the damage. To put it simply, the base damage of the harbinger is so high that sacrificing a whole traitline for defense don't put enough of a dent in it's damage output. Keep in mind that the harbinger's sustain is only held together by protection and weakness, nothing more, nothing less. You can have the same protection and weakness uptime with elementalist and ranger yet the sacrifice to the damage output for them is such that it's not an issue.

You sure it's not faulty interface between chair and keyboard when you can't beat necro in PvP?

[ZDragon.3046]

29 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Nope, that isn't a death magic problem. Death magic provide survivability and that's all. Harbinger is the one that bring the damage. To put it simply, the base damage of the harbinger is so high that sacrificing a whole traitline for defense don't put enough of a dent in it's damage output. Keep in mind that the harbinger's sustain is only held together by protection and weakness, nothing more, nothing less. You can have the same protection and weakness uptime with elementalist and ranger yet the sacrifice to the damage output for them is such that it's not an issue.

Sorry i dont completely agree with you on the grounds that by taking a defensive line you are leaving potential damage off the table which means you absolutely are taking a dent in damage output just like every other profession.

Your ideal about weakness and protection is correct thats all it has because it got no active hard active defenses with its utility kit.

So because it lost the hp protection and gained a in built maximum hp reduction mechanic and still cant use its utility skills in that shrouded form you expect it not to have high damage potential?

The difference with classes like elementalist and ranger is that they have active defenses they can take and necormancer does not. There is no arcane shield, mist form, obsidian flesh, lightning reflexes, protect me, etc. Things very frequently used with those two classes to survie situations where necromancer more or less has to damage soak. 

Harbingers best defense is practically offense and its not even the best option you could potentially pick when you have professions like willbinder and untamed apparently (im not so sure about the second one) 

[Puck.3697]

9 hours ago, ZDragon.3046 said:

I doubt this would happen we have to remember that necromancer (unfortunately) by its design is a corner stone of the competitive modes so even if its sustain got hit via targeting death magic which is what the meta builds get it from it will likely still be played so long as it keeps its damage. Now if we hit both its sustain and its damage to the point where reaper out performs it in both while being more or less still pretty glass then we have to question why play it at all when reaper keeps its health protection.
A picture like this is what many people will have to realize they shouldnt expect its damage to go lower than reapers or in spvp's case even core necro. That would be unreasonable for its design. 

On that idea things such as core shatter mesmer would be more viable. It has all the burst in the world and capable of clean one shots yet its very much not meta. 

There is a level of sustain that is required realistically, otherwise ur entirely countered by stuns or condi damage. 

While necro has a a good spot in spvp as a corner stone that doesn't secure harbinger specifically. And if harbinger can't sustain a fight well enough to provide what it brings it's going to fall to one of the other speccs realistically. 

[Puck.3697]

7 hours ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

You sure it's not faulty interface between chair and keyboard when you can't beat necro in PvP?

Harbingers a S tier meta specc. If the harbinger is getting smashed its very much likely the necro suffering this issue. 

There's a reason double harb + tempest is currently very much a unbeatable comp in regards to what pro players are using. 

If someone's playing harbinger currently and failing, it's very much the harbinger who is bad at the game. 

I'm quite litterally one shotting players with mine and won a 1v3 far. Its very easy and very effective. 

P.s before someone jumps in with "musta been bad players". No rhe only bad player in these scenarios would be myself. I have no experience playing necro I'm just a ele main who is having fun with other classes. 

If I'm able to do it while being a terrible player, then I'm pretty certain those above average could do better. 

Edited June 16, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[semak.7481]

13 hours ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

You sure it's not faulty interface between chair and keyboard when you can't beat everyone with necro in PvP?

Made some crucial corrections, no need to thank me

[Dadnir.5038]

I believe the thread have totally derailed. Can we push all those sPvP argument out of this PvE thread (I mean the title state PvE why are we discussing whether someone can beat necromancer in PvP in such a thread?).

[Shadowmoon.7986]

The only thing you got wrong is saying reaper was bad in HoT. Anet made one of the best single target condi dps classes in the game at the time.  You heard me right, the HoT balance team was so bad at designing reaper that they accidentally made a high damage single target dps class when trying to make a aoe power class. 

I issue with harbringer is you have to commit too many utilities and skill lock outs to get marginally more dps than scourge.  Being able to use special grasps, epi, or signet of undeath whenever you need it makes it a much safer and useful spec.

[Dadnir.5038]

1 hour ago, Shadowmoon.7986 said:

The only thing you got wrong is saying reaper was bad in HoT. Anet made one of the best single target condi dps classes in the game at the time.  You heard me right, the HoT balance team was so bad at designing reaper that they accidentally made a high damage single target dps class when trying to make a aoe power class.

In PvE (PvE thread, it's written in the title of the thread) a full dps reaper was 30% damage behind most other professions with basically 0 utility for the group (and no, there wasn't any realistic possibility to support as it didn't provide boons nor healing worth anything while it lacked many things necessary to take on the "tank" role). It was bad.

Edited June 17, 2022 by Dadnir.5038

[Shadowmoon.7986]

1 hour ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

In PvE (PvE thread, it's written in the title of the thread) a full dps reaper was 30% damage behind most other professions with basically 0 utility for the group (and no, there wasn't any realistic possibility to support as it didn't provide boons nor healing worth anything while it lacked many things necessary to take on the "tank" role). It was bad.

Condi reaper had competitive damage and could still take epi prior to the expac nerf all classes to drive pay to win xpac buying.

[anbujackson.9564]

Wow, besides tempest, thats what I call balanced dps. Not the shitshow we have now.

One thing on this thread: Just because one profession wasnt represented for some time in the game, doesnt mean it should totally overperform or break the game in conclusion. What messed up logic is that?

[Dadnir.5038]

1 hour ago, Shadowmoon.7986 said:

Condi reaper had competitive damage and could still take epi prior to the expac nerf all classes to drive pay to win xpac buying.

It hasn't...

The rotation was relying on whirling into ice fields and that wasn't really possible due to the fact that there were many other fields in actual fight. What you're showing off was merely a theroretical build that very few used and even fewer were able to push to a competitive level.

Also, I'd like to point out that on your link the Reaper's paragraph have the word "irrelevant" used many times.

[Puck.3697]

19 hours ago, Shadowmoon.7986 said:

Condi reaper had competitive damage and could still take epi prior to the expac nerf all classes to drive pay to win xpac buying

Ngl... but I'm pretty certain condi reaper clocks 37k dps on a Golem. So I don't see how you perceived it was nerfed. 

The problems are it was never all that practical. 

[Shadowmoon.7986]

30 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Ngl... but I'm pretty certain condi reaper clocks 37k dps on a Golem. So I don't see how you perceived it was nerfed. 

The problems are it was never all that practical. 

That is after torment and soul barbs change, i was talking about the pre pof nerf changes that removed whirled projectiles and poison stacks from death spiral.