Virtuoso fills a niche that Mesmer was lacking

[Oak.2047]

Reading through this forum i get the notion that somewhat everybody hates Virtuoso for being a nerf to the existing specs, but honestly .. I don't see it.

 

Mesmer did not need another Support or Raid DPS build.

What it needed was an easy access to upfront burst AoE DPS, and it is what the class got.
Mesmer sucked in Fractals (and Dungeons for that matter) ever since FB got access to quickness, the Damage had far too much ramp up and was too unreliable for anything but pugs, and why do you take a Chrono if you can just take a Firebrand who does more Damage AND has more utility.

Now we got a spec that is actually playable in any meaningful form outside of long single target fights.

 

So do tell me, why is everybody hating on it?

 

[Roda.7468]

Mostly because the people who enjoy it are too busy playing it to rant on the forums.

 

(If any of y'all see this, can some of you play alac in group content? I want a turn. 🥺 )

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

Because we play WvW and/or PvP.

Edited March 24, 2022 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[Urphen.2857]

20 minutes ago, Oak.2047 said:

Reading through this forum i get the notion that somewhat everybody hates Virtuoso for being a nerf to the existing specs, but honestly .. I don't see it.

 

Mesmer did not need another Support or Raid DPS build.

What it needed was an easy access to upfront burst AoE DPS, and it is what the class got.
Mesmer sucked in Fractals (and Dungeons for that matter) ever since FB got access to quickness, the Damage had far too much ramp up and was too unreliable for anything but pugs, and why do you take a Chrono if you can just take a Firebrand who does more Damage AND has more utility.

Now we got a spec that is actually playable in any meaningful form outside of long single target fights.

 

So do tell me, why is everybody hating on it?

 

What mesmer needed was a wvw/spvp spec and not another pve dps.

And still why should someone bring Virtuoso when there are plenty Specs that bring more than only dps.

Last thing the majority don't like it because of wvw/pvp and not because of Raids/fracs/ow, the dps is nice in raids and fracs even if other classes bring the same + more utility but that's not why we are complaining here

[Roda.7468]

I really think the profession subforums need their own subforums for pve/pvp/wvw, or like we as a community need to come up with out own self-tagging system, cause I'm sure it makes it hard to parse feedback when so many people are giving blanket feedback for specific scenarios.

[Tseison.4659]

1 hour ago, Oak.2047 said:

Reading through this forum i get the notion that somewhat everybody hates Virtuoso for being a nerf to the existing specs, but honestly .. I don't see it.

 

Mesmer did not need another Support or Raid DPS build.

What it needed was an easy access to upfront burst AoE DPS, and it is what the class got.
Mesmer sucked in Fractals (and Dungeons for that matter) ever since FB got access to quickness, the Damage had far too much ramp up and was too unreliable for anything but pugs, and why do you take a Chrono if you can just take a Firebrand who does more Damage AND has more utility.

Now we got a spec that is actually playable in any meaningful form outside of long single target fights.

 

So do tell me, why is everybody hating on it?

 

Personally for me the reason why I feel indifferent towards the Virtuoso and won't be picking it up period (to each their own), is mainly because some of the constructive feedback in beta #1 and 4 wasn't taken into consideration especially the ones that mentioned a lot of core traits not functioning with blades because of the whole "Illusions/Clones=Blades" and other issues that were mentioned but clearly not addressed. Idiots will call it "irrelevant feedback to anets concept" and some hope that it's just an oversight and will hopefully be looked at again for the summer profession update, who really knows.

Additionally, I just personally feel that some things don't really make sense on the Virtuoso: Bladeturn Requiem (Block) on F4 when Blade Renewal (Distortion) would've been a better option since we're all so conditioned to distortion on that slot (minus Chrono). Thousand Cuts, Rain of Swords and Sword of Decimation literally being the same skill with one just positioned horizontally. Sharper  Images and Jagged Mind literally could've been merged together. The bottom row being purely condition base when the elite spec seems to be more power base? Also bleeding isn't a strong condition to begin with even with the bleed damage boost. Dagger weapon skills are terrible and uninspiring. Missed opportunity for an off hand dagger as well and the list goes on.

Those are most of my "issues" I have with it, but it is what it is. I just continue to play Core, Chrono and Mirage and move on with my day. Maybe they'll get the 4th Elite Spec right in the future.

[Duglaive.5236]

2 hours ago, Tseison.4659 said:

Personally for me the reason why I feel indifferent towards the Virtuoso and won't be picking it up period (to each their own), is mainly because some of the constructive feedback in beta #1 and 4 wasn't taken into consideration especially the ones that mentioned a lot of core traits not functioning with blades because of the whole "Illusions/Clones=Blades" and other issues that were mentioned but clearly not addressed. Idiots will call it "irrelevant feedback to anets concept" and some hope that it's just an oversight and will hopefully be looked at again for the summer profession update, who really knows.

Additionally, I just personally feel that some things don't really make sense on the Virtuoso: Bladeturn Requiem (Block) on F4 when Blade Renewal (Distortion) would've been a better option since we're all so conditioned to distortion on that slot (minus Chrono). Thousand Cuts, Rain of Swords and Sword of Decimation literally being the same skill with one just positioned horizontally. Sharper  Images and Jagged Mind literally could've been merged together. The bottom row being purely condition base when the elite spec seems to be more power base? Also bleeding isn't a strong condition to begin with even with the bleed damage boost. Dagger weapon skills are terrible and uninspiring. Missed opportunity for an off hand dagger as well and the list goes on.

Those are most of my "issues" I have with it, but it is what it is. I just continue to play Core, Chrono and Mirage and move on with my day. Maybe they'll get the 4th Elite Spec right in the future.

 

For my thoughts on Virtuoso, I don't believe it could have been put better than the above; great post.

[Salt Mode.3780]

I think its quite hilarious that people think Chrono and Mirage are not considered "up-front DPS" specs. The reason why it doesn't seem like that is because they can be used multiple ways and built multiple ways with multi uses whereas Virtuoso is literally only 1.

As far as PvE mains go, WvW and PvP was the base foundation for your PvE enjoyment. Need I remind you GW2 combat platform was based off of competitive modes not PvE, in fact when the game released PvE was so horrendous that zones were empty dungeons were non-existent. It is harder to balance in competitive modes then it does in PvE sorry to burst your PvE bubbles but it aint hard to balance in PvE at all.

Being a glass cannon isnt a "niche" it doesnt fill any role that other classes cant fill because at the end of the day, meta classes can do what a couple thousand dps less and provide extreme utility support to the party. I don't understand why people think DPS is an issue when it comes to raid encounters, strike missions, or the famous golem. 

What Mesmer was lacking is the nerfs we have been dealt with over the years, other jobs doing our job much better and efficient, build diversity for competitive play, dps is most certainly not one of them.

Edited March 24, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[Oak.2047]

4 hours ago, Tseison.4659 said:

Personally for me the reason why I feel indifferent towards the Virtuoso and won't be picking it up period (to each their own), is mainly because some of the constructive feedback in beta #1 and 4 wasn't taken into consideration especially the ones that mentioned a lot of core traits not functioning with blades because of the whole "Illusions/Clones=Blades" and other issues that were mentioned but clearly not addressed. Idiots will call it "irrelevant feedback to anets concept" and some hope that it's just an oversight and will hopefully be looked at again for the summer profession update, who really knows.

Additionally, I just personally feel that some things don't really make sense on the Virtuoso: Bladeturn Requiem (Block) on F4 when Blade Renewal (Distortion) would've been a better option since we're all so conditioned to distortion on that slot (minus Chrono). Thousand Cuts, Rain of Swords and Sword of Decimation literally being the same skill with one just positioned horizontally. Sharper  Images and Jagged Mind literally could've been merged together. The bottom row being purely condition base when the elite spec seems to be more power base? Also bleeding isn't a strong condition to begin with even with the bleed damage boost. Dagger weapon skills are terrible and uninspiring. Missed opportunity for an off hand dagger as well and the list goes on.

Those are most of my "issues" I have with it, but it is what it is. I just continue to play Core, Chrono and Mirage and move on with my day. Maybe they'll get the 4th Elite Spec right in the future.

 

okay that makes alot of sense. I get it. i still think it deserves a place in the game, but i can see why mesmer mains are at odds with the spec.

 

1 hour ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

I think its quite hilarious that people think Chrono and Mirage are not considered "up-front DPS" specs. The reason why it doesn't seem like that is because they can be used multiple ways and built multiple ways with multi uses whereas Virtuoso is literally only 1.

As far as PvE mains go, WvW and PvP was the base foundation for your PvE enjoyment. Need I remind you GW2 combat platform was based off of competitive modes not PvE, in fact when the game released PvE was so horrendous that zones were empty dungeons were non-existent. It is harder to balance in competitive modes then it does in PvE sorry to burst your PvE bubbles but it aint hard to balance in PvE at all.

Being a glass cannon isnt a "niche" it doesnt fill any role that other classes cant fill because at the end of the day, meta classes can do what a couple thousand dps less and provide extreme utility support to the party. I don't understand why people think DPS is an issue when it comes to raid encounters, strike missions, or the famous golem. 

What Mesmer was lacking is the nerfs we have been dealt with over the years, other jobs doing our job much better and efficient, build diversity for competitive play, dps is most certainly not one of them.

 

I know you're talking out of your kitten here, idk where you're coming from. GW1 was based off of PvP, GW2 was introduced with PvE in mind. As a beta and Headstart player myself, i can remember how much more they talked about open world events than the pvp mode. Dungeons also were a thing right of the start so idk where you have that info.

 

Chrono and Mirage are just not good up front DPS specs, it's very clear on their non existant in the fractal meta. If you think that a Mirage or Chrono can keep up with classes like soulbeast or Firebrand in T4 meta groups where trash groups get blown over in an instant and Bosses get phased insanely fast (excluding sunqua), then i wanna see where you get that data too.

 

[Salt Mode.3780]

3 minutes ago, Oak.2047 said:

 

okay that makes alot of sense. I get it. i still think it deserves a place in the game, but i can see why mesmer mains are at odds with the spec.

 

 

I know you're talking out of your kitten here, idk where you're coming from. GW1 was based off of PvP, GW2 was introduced with PvE in mind. As a beta and Headstart player myself, i can remember how much more they talked about open world events than the pvp mode. Dungeons also were a thing right of the start so idk where you have that info.

 

Chrono and Mirage are just not good up front DPS specs, it's very clear on their non existant in the fractal meta. If you think that a Mirage or Chrono can keep up with classes like soulbeast or Firebrand in T4 meta groups where trash groups get blown over in an instant and Bosses get phased insanely fast (excluding sunqua), then i wanna see where you get that data too.

 

What the kitten ru talking about, GW2 pride itself on WvW and advertise the GAME BASED on WvW. The WHOLE MARKET of GW2 was WvW not open world. That was just them saying that there is an "interactive" open world. Dungeons were dead before it even started.

Chrono and Mirage are fcking excellent in DPS and notice I didnt mention fractals? You really need to READ before making nonsense. Mesmers havent been meta in Fractals for YEARS and Virtuoso isnt going to magically change that.

God kitten people can't seem to read these days.

Then again nothing to expect from a person that literally has 2 posts in their whole lifetime and decided to go into a Mesmer thread as their first.

Edited March 24, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[Oak.2047]

Just now, Salt Mode.3780 said:

What the kitten ru talking about, GW2 pride itself on WvW and advertise the GAME BASED on WvW. The WHOLE MARKET of GW2 was WvW not open world. That was just them saying that there is an "interactive" open world. Dungeons were dead before it even started.

Chrono and Mirage are fcking excellent in DPS and notice I didnt mention fractals? You really need to READ before making nonsense. Mesmers havent been meta in Fractals for YEARS and Virtuoso isnt going to magically change that.

God kitten people can't seem to read these days.

Oh you're really hurt there, sorry.

I mentioned Fractals because the original reason why upfront damage ever was mentioned WAS in th context of fractal viability. Dungeons were NOT dead, as alot of people used them for gold farming (not just RF p1) and no. From the get go, Open world and Dynamic events were one big marketing point.

[Salt Mode.3780]

31 minutes ago, Oak.2047 said:

Oh you're really hurt there, sorry.

I mentioned Fractals because the original reason why upfront damage ever was mentioned WAS in th context of fractal viability. Dungeons were NOT dead, as alot of people used them for gold farming (not just RF p1) and no. From the get go, Open world and Dynamic events were one big marketing point.

Im hurt? Or ru being delusional...? Nothing you mentioned made any lick of sense, dungeons became obsolete why do you think fractals was a thing?

As far as gold farming goes yes core days because that was the ONLY option people had, even then ORR map farming was more profitable then dungeon grinds. Gold farm and karma alike. 

(Corrected)

Far as combat goes the whole style of combat is revolved around competitive play, PvE is a JOKE because you can dodge. Fact that you can ignore soo many mechanics with the "meta" PvE classes shows how hilarious and ridiculous PvE actually is in GW2. 

I DIDNT mention fractals because I am not living in the past I am currently talking about PRESENT. So stop being wrong.

Edited March 24, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[Oak.2047]

Just now, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Im hurt? Or ru being delusional...? Nothing you mentioned made any lick of sense, dungeons became obsolete why do you think fractals was a thing?

As far as gold farming goes yes core days because that was the ONLY option people had, even then ORR map farming was more profitable then dungeon grinds. Gold farm and karma alike. 

As far as fractal goes, when fractals were released Chrono was the meta, Mesmer only became irrelevant due to continuous nerfs and it's job taken away, AGAIN Virtuoso ISNT GOING TO MAKE MESMER META AGAIN in responding to your irrelevant post.

Far as combat goes the whole style of combat is revolved around competitive play, PvE is a JOKE because you can dodge. Fact that you can ignore soo many mechanics with the "meta" PvE classes shows how hilarious and ridiculous PvE actually is in GW2.

You're just absoltuely wrong lol. When Fractals were released, chrono wasn't a thing. Fractals were released LONG before HoT. Stop twisting the facts so that your statements are right. i sure make more sense than someone who just makes stuff up.

And Fractals coexisted with dungeons for along time, for 2 very different purposes.
Don't pretend like you're a vet when you're very much not.

[Salt Mode.3780]

10 minutes ago, Oak.2047 said:

You're just absoltuely wrong lol. When Fractals were released, chrono wasn't a thing. Fractals were released LONG before HoT. Stop twisting the facts so that your statements are right. i sure make more sense than someone who just makes stuff up.

And Fractals coexisted with dungeons for along time, for 2 very different purposes.
Don't pretend like you're a vet when you're very much not.

Sorry you are correct however fractals completely replaced dungeons. Coexist doesnt mean they both got the same works as you can see fractals aged better then dungeons did, because I'm sure people are doing AC and Arah right now.

Just like WvW SPVP coexist doesn't mean they aged well. As far as your posts go NOTHING i mentioned wasn't correct aside from fractal release date.

Virtuoso doesn't fill in any niche role. DPS is never an issue in PvE content MOST CERTAINLY not fractals. If you remove Virtuoso from the game PvE content will still run the same. 

I don't even know why you continue to push fractals as if its the only PvE content in the game that matters.

Niche implies that it specialize in a particular specific area and sorry to say Virtuoso doesn't do that.

I got confused with the release of fractals with HoT is because they had a revamp of fractals when HoT was released with instabilities and reworking the rewards.

Edited March 24, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[Puck.3697]

Didn't fill the niche of giving mesmer a good PvP option. 

People are unhappy at virtuosos ability in spvp and WvWvW. Which are enviroments mesmer has suffered in for a long long time 

[Salt Mode.3780]

I still don't know what niche it filled that Mesmer was lacking....? Fact that the person who posted this thread also said "Mesmer did not need another Support or Raid DPS build." 

So did not need another Raid DPS build...when benchmarks are based off of raids....and I'm pretty sure there are many classes that perform well in raid benchmarks can also excel in w/e PvE content is needed to fill in that role...

I don't see the niche....

Edited March 24, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[Tseison.4659]

1 hour ago, Oak.2047 said:

 

okay that makes alot of sense. I get it. i still think it deserves a place in the game, but i can see why mesmer mains are at odds with the spec.

I respect that and by no means do I ever come off as the elite spec shouldn’t be here because it’s already here and clearly staying lol. However, my opinion will always still stand and I hope it receives some fixes come summer. But for ME, after rigorous testing in beta and live; it’s not useful to me and from encountering some Virtuosos in WvW, it’s a pity that it’s just getting other Mesmers killed lol 🤷‍♂️ In PvE I couldn’t care less how it is, but there’s just better choices in my opinion.

[Hirosama Nadasaki.6792]

8 hours ago, Oak.2047 said:

why do you take a Chrono if you can just take a Firebrand who does more Damage AND has more utility.

But.... Virtuoso doesn't fix that either? Condi firebrand deals pretty much the same damage as condi virtuoso while also having utility.

[Puck.3697]

2 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

I still don't know what niche it filled that Mesmer was lacking....? Fact that the person who posted this thread also said "Mesmer did not need another Support or Raid DPS build." 

So did not need another Raid DPS build...when benchmarks are based off of raids....and I'm pretty sure there are many classes that perform well in raid benchmarks can also excel in w/e PvE content is needed to fill in that role...

I don't see the niche....

The only niche Virtuoso has is it gives Bad Players a Easy build to DPS On effectively. they can finally stop getting themselves killed trying to use Split time properly and just play virtuoso. litterally just spamming keys without a Proper rotation will yeld a 30k DPS at 1200 Range, which no isnt Lead performing... but it takes a great deal more effort to do that with chrono xD

if we break it down really.

Conditional Virtuoso out DPS's mirage, it also Ramps up faster then most Condi builds.

Power Virtuoso yields 500 DPS higher then Power chrono. on a Easier to play build.

but it Solves no role outside of a DPS Spot.

I suspose at best it could be a noob stomper in PvP, its quite funny to use in gold Games for example, as landing Damage is Pretty easy against those sorts of players.. although as can be imagined. the moment people learn what a Reflect is its Game over so its going to see 0 Usuage in high tier play

(Although we did actually see a top tier team run virtuoso in the AT Funnily enough.)

isnt even worth turning up in WvWvW... yields no benefit at all among a Zerg.

But yeah.

its selling feature is a PvE build thats easier to play then prior elites effectively. i have seen more Mesmers about since its launch though, so maybe it funnily enough made the proffession more popular for now? we'll see how long it lasts before it drops off when people get sick and tired of being completely useless the moment a reflect turns up tho.

Edited March 25, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Salt Mode.3780]

54 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

its selling feature is a PvE build thats easier to play then prior elites effectively. i have seen more Mesmers about since its launch though, so maybe it funnily enough made the proffession more popular for now? we'll see how long it lasts before it drops off when people get sick and tired of being completely useless the moment a reflect turns up tho.

OR when the dps gets nerfed because there is so many people playing it because its easy, then Virtuoso really has no spot.

[Puck.3697]

23 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

OR when the dps gets nerfed because there is so many people playing it because its easy, then Virtuoso really has no spot.

Thankfully that likely wont be a problem.

More people are crowding Mechanist and Harbinger then Virtuoso, Due to the backlash the speccs gotten throughout it hasnt lifted quite that high haha, its Defintly more popular then Mesmer has been, but generally people go back to their mains quite quickly.

I doubt it'll get nerfed tho.. given the fact its only doing 500 more DPS. I Dont think it'll get nerfed most likely it isnt really doing anything outside the bands of results others are getting haha.

[Salt Mode.3780]

27 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Thankfully that likely wont be a problem.

More people are crowding Mechanist and Harbinger then Virtuoso, Due to the backlash the speccs gotten throughout it hasnt lifted quite that high haha, its Defintly more popular then Mesmer has been, but generally people go back to their mains quite quickly.

I doubt it'll get nerfed tho.. given the fact its only doing 500 more DPS. I Dont think it'll get nerfed most likely it isnt really doing anything outside the bands of results others are getting haha.

I mean cata mains are rolling over their graves because they got nerfed based on golem benchmark lulz.

[Puck.3697]

7 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

I mean cata mains are rolling over their graves because they got nerfed based on golem benchmark lulz.

I do still wonder where the data surrounding its DPS Was extracted from tbh.

Due to how catalyst is set up, It doesnt function properly its rotation is actually impossible without optimal boon uptimes realistically... which means the Specc was already underperforming by default in 99.9% Of Raids / groups run in the game, so im pressuming this was based on groups WAAAY higher up, either way yeah the nerfs put the specc into a Grave

but its also confirmed they're now going to rebuff its DPS, so realistically, it lasted 1 patch cycle. which is coming out next week.

Edited March 25, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Mell.4873]

6 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Sorry you are correct however fractals completely replaced dungeons. Coexist doesnt mean they both got the same works as you can see fractals aged better then dungeons did, because I'm sure people are doing AC and Arah right now.

Just like WvW SPVP coexist doesn't mean they aged well. As far as your posts go NOTHING i mentioned wasn't correct aside from fractal release date.

Virtuoso doesn't fill in any niche role. DPS is never an issue in PvE content MOST CERTAINLY not fractals. If you remove Virtuoso from the game PvE content will still run the same. 

I don't even know why you continue to push fractals as if its the only PvE content in the game that matters.

Niche implies that it specialize in a particular specific area and sorry to say Virtuoso doesn't do that.

I got confused with the release of fractals with HoT is because they had a revamp of fractals when HoT was released with instabilities and reworking the rewards.

Another day and another mesmer forum thread that goes round and round in circles. Why even post here if you have nothing positive to say. I don't go and posts where people complain only to try and tell them they are wrong. 

Just let people play Virtuoso, it isn't going to change drastically any more. If people can find a niche for it let them. If you don't like Virtuoso wait for the next expansion in 2 years.

[mortrialus.3062]

2 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

Another day and another mesmer forum thread that goes round and round in circles. Why even post here if you have nothing positive to say.

Why even post if all YOU'RE doing is stifling real constructive criticism?