Dragon Minions fates after their dragon died depends on how they were created.

[Kalavier.1097]

All sources are from ingame, or Edge of Destiny Novel. This is my view on dragon minions, how they are made, and what happened to each post death of their respective dragons.

 

Dragon minions are seen made by A: Corruption. B: Creation. C : grown. D : gifted.
A = branded and Risen. They are forcibly transformed as is from a creature into a dragon minion, losing any sense of self typically. Some are described as being anchors to the soul of the person, others are soulless. They can be created by the Dragon's breath, champions, or corrupting areas or artifacts.
When Zhaitan and Kralk died, their minions persisted, strong as ever, and could even replenish numbers with certain champions or locations/artifacts. But they lacked unified drive and champions/more powerful minions started leading others. This is confirmed by the dead fleet of Zhaitan still is very much active in the vast ocean beyond the shores of Tyria between it and Cantha, but it's uncoordinated and disorganized, allowing sneaky airships to make it through without conflict Kingpins and Champions can enhance and command groups, but there is no unified horde swarming anymore.
B: Creation. This area is filled with the destroyers purely. They aren't made from living people or corpses, and appear to be purely fueled and made by Primordus's magic. In season 3, when Primordus was struck by Taimi's machine, all local destroyers in the volcano fell over dead suddenly. They are linked directly to him and in Icebrood saga, we hear about how there is a power loop between him and them. More destroyers, more powerful Primordus. Stronger Primordus, more powerful destroyers.  When he died for good, the destroyers extinguished. Some are implied/noted to have survived, but for the most part, the destroyers went splat, just like in season 3.
C : Grown. Sylvari/Mordrem. Unlike Corrupted minions, these are grown separate from Mordremoth, but still linked to his mind. We know the pale tree came from "a cave full of seeds", and in Heart of Thorns we see at least 1-4 (depending how you view dragon's stand) "blighting trees" There is the unknown location of Malyck's tree, though it mayhave become one of the blighting trees in the deep jungle. With Zhaitan's magic, they created "blighting pods", where they could leave a corpse and grow copies from that template, of a mordrem. Sylvari who gave into Mordremoth transformed in Mordrem as well. When he died, we have reports of the Mordrem continuing to grow and infest the jungle, causing lots of danger. Sylvari who gave in are noted to have (at least the ability/choice) to revert, shifting back into their old bodies but carrying the weight of whatever they did under his thrall. So if a blighting tree exists, like the Pale tree it'll coninue to spit out Mordrem.
D : Gifted. This falls into icebrood and Prismatic (though we only have one of these, unless you count the mount skins or the commander at end of EoD). These ones are people or creatures (for the most part) who willingly accept the dragon's magic, transforming themselves and gaining power.
With icebrood, it's described in Edge of Destiny as being a transformation over time. A new one has a thin layer of ice over their body, but they still bleed, all internal organs are normal, etc. The longer they exist as an icebrood, more of their body gets transformed. Eventually, they are purely an ice monster with bits of bone inside. We've seen icebrood svanir champions who use a model from crucible of eternity, Where the icebrood there at one point loses his helm, ripping a chunk of his face and head off with it. The bared, frozen skull causes him no harm or issues.
Caithe was transformed, but her changes are almost entirely skin deep only, and mental.
When Aurene died, Caithe lost the crystal flowers and mental connection, but was otherwise healthy.
This ties into what happened when Jormag died. The "gift" of it's magic went away as jormag did.
Thus you had the stated results of everything from "Minor injuries/fatigue." to "Immediate death" from Gorrik post icebrood saga. (or soon dying due to range of injuries and exposure to elements assuming nobody is around to save them)
Braham and Ryland both willingly accepted dragon magic, and thus both survived, though both were weakened and injuried afterwards. Braham had the advantage of the spirits also protecting him, where Ryland continued trying to fight and the injuries did not help him.

 

Edited March 27, 2022 by Kalavier.1097

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

I would disagree a bit here and there.

 

The main thing I disagree with is that dragon minions fall into one neat category of creation as a whole. We know this isn't true - for example, there are branded that fall under the purview of "created" - The Shatterer and Wrathbringer in particular are established as being corrupted land and air given form as a champion. We also have icebrood elementals, branded elementals which are of unclear nature as either corrupted or "created" (which is really just corrupting lands/elements).

Similarly, we have destroyers which are clrearly corrupted - the Stone Summit fought in Fire and Steel release in particular. They're rare, but they do exist.

There are also mordrem (Mordrem Trolls and Mordrem Wolves) which are corrupted animals. And technically, all mordrem are corrupted - corrupted plants to be specific: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/Lore-Q-A/page/2#post6175329

Quote

Mordremoth’s corruption is analogous to weeds and moss invading a garden and totally taking it over. The invader (for the purposes of this analogy, the weeds and moss) claims the nutrients and resources that would otherwise go to the existing plants, surrounds and envelops the native plants and digests them/converts them into more raw material it can use to grow, and then spreads outward, colonizing as it goes. The invader continues to get stronger and expand while the native plants are choked out/starved/digested and wither away. This sort of overwhelming growth/colonization can also be seen in the bodies of its minions like the Mordrem Wolf or Mordrem Troll (who were originally something else before they became Mordremoth minions—I’d call out an analogy to Alan Moore’s excellent classic Swamp Thing story, “The Anatomy Lesson,” where the creature’s original body is slowly replaced by plant material until you have essentially a plant version of the original that has the same general form but not necessarily the same function); there are also things like the Mordrem Vine Crawlers and Tendril Roots, which Mordy basically crafted from scratch using the plant material at hand.

Similarly, while IBS does have some bonded (or as you say, "gifted") minions, the original icebrood are 100% corrupted with no free will (one of the key differences between corruption and bonding is the minion's free will).

As such, the fates didn't depend on their means of corruption, particularly for icebrood which had enough of both kinds for Gorrik to merit distinguishing if such was the case.

We can summarize the creation / fates as this:

• Risen, corrupted, are unfazed, but notably weaker.
• Mordrem, corrupted, are unfazed, but notably disorganized (no more micromanagement).
• Mordrem Guard, subjugated, are free to revert or not of their own violition.
• Branded, corrupted/created, are unfazed, but got hunted down by Aurene.
• Icebrood, corrupted/bonded, are de-corrupted with Jormag's death.
• Destroyers, created/corrupted, died with Primordus' death, with some exception that are just weaker.
• Braham, corrupted, is a special cookie because Spirits of the Wild protected him.
• Primsatic, bonded, is a small oddity with not enough samples to draw a proper conclusion.

There is some cases of "how they're made affects their fate", but not in the two most critical - and bizarre - scenarios of icebrood and destroyers. Especially icebrood. There is no apparent distinction in the fate between Ryland and the rest of icebrood be they Frost Legion or other.

Edited March 27, 2022 by Konig Des Todes.2086
Condensing for simplicity and formatting

[draxynnic.3719]

I think one thing worth noting also that it's unclear if sylvari converted to Mordrem Guard were ever really truly minions in the technical sense. Any copies made of them probably were (and AFAIK no copy has reverted), but Mordrem Guard seemed to have been purely controlled through Mordremoth bombarding the sylvari in question with his own thoughts and desires until they could no longer distinguish Mordremoth's thoughts from their own. The physical changes that followed were just something that sylvari can do, as shown by Canach's extensive physical changes (be interesting to see if he starts reverting back). The effect is similar to mesmeric mind control effects like the Floating Griswhirl, just that Mordremoth has a back door into sylvari minds - even PC sylvari briefly succumb near the climax of Heart of Thorns.

[Kalavier.1097]

9 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

I would disagree a bit here and there.

 

The main thing I disagree with is that dragon minions fall into one neat category of creation as a whole. We know this isn't true - for example, there are branded that fall under the purview of "created" - The Shatterer and Wrathbringer in particular are established as being corrupted land and air given form as a champion. We also have icebrood elementals, branded elementals which are of unclear nature as either corrupted or "created" (which is really just corrupting lands/elements).

Similarly, we have destroyers which are clrearly corrupted - the Stone Summit fought in Fire and Steel release in particular. They're rare, but they do exist.

There are also mordrem (Mordrem Trolls and Mordrem Wolves) which are corrupted animals. And technically, all mordrem are corrupted - corrupted plants to be specific: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/Lore-Q-A/page/2#post6175329

 

 

It's not perfectly clean cut for all this is true, but in general sense it can be. The majority of the Mordrem we fight are more grown then the corrupted, plant replaced bodies described though, with the blighting trees and pods.

I personally wouldn't count the Stone Summit ghosts primordus minions however, or even "destroyers." Since they accidentally transformed themself to that without his intent. They also never left that town for any reason after transforming. At least the Mordrem guard and the copied Hylek and others were grown.

 

9 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Similarly, while IBS does have some bonded (or as you say, "gifted") minions, the original icebrood are 100% corrupted with no free will (one of the key differences between corruption and bonding is the minion's free will).

As such, the fates didn't depend on their means of corruption, particularly for icebrood which had enough of both kinds for Gorrik to merit distinguishing if such was the case.

 

 

The original icebrood I know of are the ones from Edge of Destiny, who are described the same way the ones who accept/are gifted the magic behave, with their bodies being normal with a layer of ice over them, slowly over time transforming. Even Ryland comments how Jormag can talk directly with anybody who is icebrood, which means they have been twisted around to that point of view. Unless there is another set of icebrood I don't know about, the ones from the novel sound more like Ryland, Bangar, Braham, and Caithe.

Gorrik's only distinction I recall with the icebrood is that the more ice a person was, the worse their injuries were. Many have slight injuries to a lot just outright dying because the Jormag magic is gone.

 

9 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

We can summarize the creation / fates as this:

• Risen, corrupted, are unfazed, but notably weaker.
• Mordrem, corrupted, are unfazed, but notably disorganized (no more micromanagement).
• Mordrem Guard, subjugated, are free to revert or not of their own violition.
• Branded, corrupted/created, are unfazed, but got hunted down by Aurene.
• Icebrood, corrupted/bonded, are de-corrupted with Jormag's death.
• Destroyers, created/corrupted, died with Primordus' death, with some exception that are just weaker.
• Braham, corrupted, is a special cookie because Spirits of the Wild protected him.
• Primsatic, bonded, is a small oddity with not enough samples to draw a proper conclusion.

There is some cases of "how they're made affects their fate", but not in the two most critical - and bizarre - scenarios of icebrood and destroyers. Especially icebrood. There is no apparent distinction in the fate between Ryland and the rest of icebrood be they Frost Legion or other.

 

I'd still label Braham as the bonded, because he literally was and had an end result similar to the bonded ones, where the Primordus elements simply left his body, with a layer of protection others have.

The thing that stuck out to me is Braham and Ryland's post dragon death status was similar to Caithe, but with both being directly weakened or injured because of it(and both had more extensive changes). Same with Bangar who was described as being rushed to a hospital because of his body getting wrecked by it. Caithe we saw get changes, and when Aurene died, the big changes went away. Ryland lost his ice coated exterior, and Braham lost the lava shell.

 

BUT, in general, I agree with your list there. The destroyers we know exist appear to be underground or minor in number/threat, with the brandscar being cleansed and the storms stopping. We know branded eels still exist at least with fishing lol.

 

Though it is interesting to ponder with how Tequatl actually got stronger after Zhaitan died, is this a trait unique to the draconic champions, or champions in general for Zhaitan?

 

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I think one thing worth noting also that it's unclear if sylvari converted to Mordrem Guard were ever really truly minions in the technical sense. Any copies made of them probably were (and AFAIK no copy has reverted), but Mordrem Guard seemed to have been purely controlled through Mordremoth bombarding the sylvari in question with his own thoughts and desires until they could no longer distinguish Mordremoth's thoughts from their own. The physical changes that followed were just something that sylvari can do, as shown by Canach's extensive physical changes (be interesting to see if he starts reverting back). The effect is similar to mesmeric mind control effects like the Floating Griswhirl, just that Mordremoth has a back door into sylvari minds - even PC sylvari briefly succumb near the climax of Heart of Thorns.

 

One Sylvari at the Labyrinthine cliffs was explicitly a Mordrem guard who reverted back to his original body. I'd say yes, the Sylvari are minions but a form that wasn't explicitly built for combat like the tougher Mordrem guard. One could possibly theorize that one intention may have been to spread the seeds for those trees all over, and use the Sylvari as an early strike force to destabilize regions.

 

In general Mordremoth overrode their will with his own, turning them from friend to foe. They later changed physically. Post HoT, some started changing back, though they remember everything that happened.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

3 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

I personally wouldn't count the Stone Summit ghosts primordus minions however, or even "destroyers." Since they accidentally transformed themself to that without his intent. They also never left that town for any reason after transforming. At least the Mordrem guard and the copied Hylek and others were grown.

The Stone Summit are full on corrupted by Primordus as established in the journals. The same way Braham would be if not for the Spirits holding back the corruption in a losing battle. Both are cases where they took Primordus' magic, rather than Primordus choosing to corrupt them - but the effect is clear and evident as they slowly lost their mind, suffered immense pains, and became liquified from the inside with rocky-toned skin (in Braham's and the drakes' cases since we never got to see Stone Summit visuals and they were already turning to stone).

3 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

The original icebrood I know of are the ones from Edge of Destiny, who are described the same way the ones who accept/are gifted the magic behave, with their bodies being normal with a layer of ice over them, slowly over time transforming. Even Ryland comments how Jormag can talk directly with anybody who is icebrood, which means they have been twisted around to that point of view. Unless there is another set of icebrood I don't know about, the ones from the novel sound more like Ryland, Bangar, Braham, and Caithe.

Gorrik's only distinction I recall with the icebrood is that the more ice a person was, the worse their injuries were. Many have slight injuries to a lot just outright dying because the Jormag magic is gone.

That's just how icebrood corruption works. Back in 2012, Jeff, Ree, and Scott said that Primordus' corruption on living beings would be similar - this was after being asked about the grawl shaman in Volcanic Fractal being corrupted by primordus or not. Incidentally, the method describe matches that shaman's visuals almost perfectly. Source: https://9.guildmag.com/interview.htm

TL;DR "Primordus doesn't corrupt the living, but can. When it happens, the victim becomes encased in rock and slowly liquefies from the inside".

Icebrood corruption is simply "slow over time" in terms of becoming more and more icy, compared to Zhaitan's and Kralkatorrik's more instant transformation, but the mental effect is immediate - they're corrupted right on the off-set. Ryland, Bangar, and Caithe aren't corrupted but bonded - the difference being that bonding is "sharing magic" and retains free will while corrupting is "hoarding magic" and enslaves the will. Icebrood are no longer themselves mentally, as signified in Edge of Destiny novel's very first chapter, when Sjord Frostfist and his band returned to assault Hoelbrak as icebrood - if they retained themselves, if they were "gifted" or "bonded", then they wouldn't have returned to attack.

As a note, Mordremoth's corrupting of animals functions like Jormag's and Primordus' slower corruption - the plants grow on the victim and slowly replace the flesh over time. This is why the Mordrem Trolls and Wolves still have fleshy and bone bits to them.

3 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

I'd still label Braham as the bonded, because he literally was and had an end result similar to the bonded ones, where the Primordus elements simply left his body, with a layer of protection others have.

The thing that stuck out to me is Braham and Ryland's post dragon death status was similar to Caithe, but with both being directly weakened or injured because of it(and both had more extensive changes). Same with Bangar who was described as being rushed to a hospital because of his body getting wrecked by it. Caithe we saw get changes, and when Aurene died, the big changes went away. Ryland lost his ice coated exterior, and Braham lost the lava shell.

I disagree.

First off, Primordus would have no reason to bond with Braham. The only reason he didn't suffer the same fate was because the Spirits protected him. And on top of that, Braham's effects are still akin to the destroyers - they all lost their flame and fire, just as icebrood all lost their ice. It's just that for the rule of subverting expectations (Tom Abernathy's own explanation), Braham survived without major repercussions.

Caithe also was not like Ryland or the rest, because when Aurene die, Caithe did NOT lose all her crystals. She only lost the flimsy, exterior, pointless flowery crystals. She was still blue and crystalline. And ANet even confirmed in the Guild Chat that it was just something done on a whim because it looked cool - whether Ryland's defrosting came of that or not is unclear, though.

It does make sense that dragon minions that are bonded rather than corrupted would lose some degree of their domain magic, since the idea of bonding is "sharing and friendship" rather than "hoarding and enslaving". But the icebrood and destroyers at large are still corrupted, not bonded, making the explanation for their death... bizarre. And the best attempt to explain it since ArenaNet hasn't bothered to, is simply that Jormag's and Primordus' energies clashing canceled each other out across Tyria somehow.

3 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

One Sylvari at the Labyrinthine cliffs was explicitly a Mordrem guard who reverted back to his original body. I'd say yes, the Sylvari are minions but a form that wasn't explicitly built for combat like the tougher Mordrem guard. One could possibly theorize that one intention may have been to spread the seeds for those trees all over, and use the Sylvari as an early strike force to destabilize regions.

 

In general Mordremoth overrode their will with his own, turning them from friend to foe. They later changed physically. Post HoT, some started changing back, though they remember everything that happened.

 

[Kalavier.1097]

IIRC in Honor of the waves, isn't one of the major points in it being that the Svanir are torturing the Voice into accepting Jormag, which is when she finally turns icebrood, as opposed to simply forcing her into becoming one? Jormag also makes it a point in icebrood saga that they want people to accept and willingly join, vs just brute force turning people. Which fits how in Bjora we see them talk about how "Their voices are not their own." and the persuasion. It's not universal, but it seems to be their style. You agree to accept Jormag's power, and that is when you start turning. They spend enough time emphasizing how Jormag twists and manipulates you into saying "yes" to join the ice, that it makes sense that a very good chunk of the icebrood are ones who willingly accepted the transformation. Norn, Kodan, Quaggan, even animals. Willing cultists or those who finally gave into the whispers and let Jormag take away the pain/suffering. Combo with the whole "Jormag's forzen" which are people sealed up in ice, as opposed to forcibly creating more icebrood. Frost Legion all being willing conversions, etc. Sure there are ones who are forcibly corrupted into icebrood but it feels like there is a whole lot of icebrood who are convinced to transform, whether they always intended it or are tricked into it.

 

As for Braham, he was being used as an anchor to ensure Primordus took the Spirits. It's not that Primordus personally chose to do it, but Braham willingly walked into the draconic magic and turn into a destroyer version of himself. I've suspected the Jotun scroll he used to enchant Eir's bow was really primordus magic, which was why he could feel their movements, and later use that ability to connect to Primordus himself.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

Nah, the Honor's Voice never accepts Jormag - the very cinematic is basically the Honor going "No, leave me be! -icified anyways, and instantly tries to kill her Claw-".

There are several cases where the Sons of Svanir force Jormag's corruption on unwilling individuals, like the "potential mate" event chain in Dredgehaunt Cliffs, or the champion quaggan event in Frostgorge Sound. Jormag only corrupts those who want their power; but the Sons of Svanir don't hold to the same rules.

Further, the time that Jormag manipulates someone before saying "yes", they aren't corrupted nor becoming icy. If that were the case, then the sylvari Commander would die per the "death when touched by dragon corruption" rule, as the Commander is influenced by Jormag's whispers and manipulations - as is Ryland, Crecia, and Braham. None of them are corrupted, icy, nor bonded.

 

As for Braham - agreed that Primordus didn't choose it. But that's also why Braham isn't bonded. When any living being is touched by ambient corruptive dragon magic, they're corrupted into a minion not bonded. Just like the Stone Summit, Braham was slowly losing his mind and turning to full on fire and rock - albeit slower than the others. It was his connection to the Spirits that prevented him from becoming a full-on mindless destroyer as quickly as the Stone Summit (or the charr turned into Destroyer Trolls in CoE story) were.

As to why Braham could "feel destroyer movements" - this is never once explained, but honestly it'd make more sense if it tied in to Wolf's abilities, as Braham was able to feel the spirits at large too. In GW1, there is a skill given by Wolf to track unseen enemies, and Braham's "sensing" ability is just like that. The jotun scroll was heavily hinted (if not outright said to be) related to the Spirit of Fire that is all over the Bitterfrost Frontier map. It should also be noted that this scroll was also used by Aesgir, and he wasn't turned into a destroyer or anything.

Edited March 28, 2022 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Kalavier.1097]

3 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Nah, the Honor's Voice never accepts Jormag - the very cinematic is basically the Honor going "No, leave me be! -icified anyways, and instantly tries to kill her Claw-".

There are several cases where the Sons of Svanir force Jormag's corruption on unwilling individuals, like the "potential mate" event chain in Dredgehaunt Cliffs, or the champion quaggan event in Frostgorge Sound. Jormag only corrupts those who want their power; but the Sons of Svanir don't hold to the same rules.

Further, the time that Jormag manipulates someone before saying "yes", they aren't corrupted nor becoming icy. If that were the case, then the sylvari Commander would die per the "death when touched by dragon corruption" rule, as the Commander is influenced by Jormag's whispers and manipulations - as is Ryland, Crecia, and Braham. None of them are corrupted, icy, nor bonded.

Maybe I misremembered the cutscene, but I recall them endlessly torturing her until she broke. But the forced conversions seem to be more Svanir, who we know Jormag didn't give a kitten about what they did (Like killing female Norn who became icebrood).

 

And I'm not saying people are corrupted or becoming icy during manipulation. I'm saying the manipulation is what LEADS to it. Jormag manipulates people with the whispers and offers, they finally give in and say yes, and that moment is when they start becoming icy. When they agree, the "contract" is signed and they become linked.

3 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

As for Braham - agreed that Primordus didn't choose it. But that's also why Braham isn't bonded. When any living being is touched by ambient corruptive dragon magic, they're corrupted into a minion not bonded. Just like the Stone Summit, Braham was slowly losing his mind and turning to full on fire and rock - albeit slower than the others. It was his connection to the Spirits that prevented him from becoming a full-on mindless destroyer as quickly as the Stone Summit (or the charr turned into Destroyer Trolls in CoE story) were.

As to why Braham could "feel destroyer movements" - this is never once explained, but honestly it'd make more sense if it tied in to Wolf's abilities, as Braham was able to feel the spirits at large too. In GW1, there is a skill given by Wolf to track unseen enemies, and Braham's "sensing" ability is just like that. The jotun scroll was heavily hinted (if not outright said to be) related to the Spirit of Fire that is all over the Bitterfrost Frontier map. It should also be noted that this scroll was also used by Aesgir, and he wasn't turned into a destroyer or anything.

 

Braham's feeling destroyers is never explained, but he did use the fire scroll on Eir's bow. Since we know Jormag's

weakness is Primordus, I'm betting it was in reality, somehow linked to Primordus.

 

I'm not saying that would turn somebody into a destroyer, but what gave the link for Primordus to actually turn Braham into a champion instead of just burning him alive and devouring him. Instead of being rejected/destroyed (Like the spirits were), primordus accepted Braham. The use of the scroll managed to give him a "destroyer smell" so to speak, letting him form that bond the spirits alone couldn't do in their attempt to direct Primordus into direct conflict.

 

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

27 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Braham's feeling destroyers is never explained, but he did use the fire scroll on Eir's bow. Since we know Jormag's

weakness is Primordus, I'm betting it was in reality, somehow linked to Primordus.

I don't think the fire scroll had anything to do with Primordus. The dragons can be hurt by things other then their specific weakness, the weakness is just the best/easiest way to kill them.

It being tied to the fire spirit mentioned in Bitterfrost makes more sense, not only with the story of that release, but also Asgeir's story. If channeling Primordus' power was what happened in the past, there really wouldn't need to be that whole story of Braham needing to realize thats what he needs to do now, the Spirits would have just gone "dude, get Primordus power lulz"

Edited March 28, 2022 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

11 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Maybe I misremembered the cutscene, but I recall them endlessly torturing her until she broke. But the forced conversions seem to be more Svanir, who we know Jormag didn't give a kitten about what they did (Like killing female Norn who became icebrood).

No moment of breaking is ever depicted.

Transcript:

Kodan's Bane, Huntsman of Jormag: Accept the power of Dragon!

Honor's Voice: Leave me in peace! I beg you!

Kodan's Bane, Huntsman of Jormag: Walk in the path of Dragon!

Zoom in on Kodan's Bane as flashes of light surround him. Zoom back out to reveal Icebrood Honor's Voice.

Kodan's Bane, Huntsman of Jormag: Receive Dragon's Gift! Its blood is your blood!

I imagine it's a case of you misremembering.

 

Quote

And I'm not saying people are corrupted or becoming icy during manipulation. I'm saying the manipulation is what LEADS to it. Jormag manipulates people with the whispers and offers, they finally give in and say yes, and that moment is when they start becoming icy. When they agree, the "contract" is signed and they become linked.

Yes, but again only in the case of Jormag's direct actions. Some other examples of zero compliance but yet still corruption:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rescue_the_hunter_before_the_Sons_of_Svanir_complete_their_ritual

Veteran Dragon Shaman: Welcome, brother. What brings you to our lodge?

Veteran Potential Mate: I seek power. I'm tired of those who show me no respect and those who don't appreciate my greatness.

Veteran Dragon Shaman: Embrace Dragon. Allow his power to flow through you. He will make them pay for their insolence.

Veteran Dragon Shaman: Are you ready to join Dragon's brood? We can start the ritual now.

Veteran Potential Mate: Wait! I'm not sure yet.

As ritual progresses:

Veteran Dragon Shaman: Feel the power of dragon in your veins.

Veteran Potential Mate: Argh, it hurts.

Veteran Dragon Shaman: The pain is only temporary. You shall be stronger than ever, a king of predators.

Veteran Dragon Shaman: You shall take what you want, when you want. All shall bow to you.

If event fails:

Veteran Potential Mate: The power of Dra—argh!

If event succeeds:

Veteran Potential Mate: (groan) You saved me. (sigh) What a fool I've been. I need to get back to the lodge and apologize.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rescue_the_quaggan_from_the_Sons_of_Svanir

At the entrance to the cave

Veteran Svanir Ritualist: We're here. Gather around the totem, quaggan in the middle.

On success

Twoloop Fish-Herder: Oohoo, thank you! Quaggan is so happy to be free. Quaggan is done with scary Svanir doing hurty things.

Twoloop Fish-Herder: Hrmm. Quaggan's belly has breakfast in mind. Fish, perhaps. Coo. Yes.

Twoloop Fish-Herder: Coo coo! Quaggan likes being free.

On failure

Twoloop Fish-Herder: BooooOOOOoooooo.

Veteran Svanir Ritualist: Behold the power of Dragon! Now, we return to the camp.

Veteran Svanir Ritualist: We don't want to be around this creature when it starts tearing everything limb from limb.

Veteran Svanir Ritualist: We cannot hope to control the power of the ice brood.

All three cases, we see zero evidence of the victim accepting Jormag. In fact, the very last word spoken out of both Honor's Voice and the quaggan are not only defiance but during the transformation process. As shown in Icebrood Saga, corruption doesn't begin the very second someone is starting to wonder "maybe Jormag's power would be good for me" - it takes a much, much longer time before Jormag grants power. Hours, days, or even weeks. Never seconds.

Quote

Braham's feeling destroyers is never explained, but he did use the fire scroll on Eir's bow. Since we know Jormag's

weakness is Primordus, I'm betting it was in reality, somehow linked to Primordus.

I feel continuing this will just be an endless cycle as you completely ignored what I said.

Yes, he did use the fire scroll, but other things can harm Jormag. And both Jormag and Ryland outright proclaim that the bow wouldn't be capable of killing Jormag - and according to Tom Abernathy, Jormag doesn't lie. Just omits certain truths.

Quote

I'm not saying that would turn somebody into a destroyer, but what gave the link for Primordus to actually turn Braham into a champion instead of just burning him alive and devouring him. Instead of being rejected/destroyed (Like the spirits were), primordus accepted Braham. The use of the scroll managed to give him a "destroyer smell" so to speak, letting him form that bond the spirits alone couldn't do in their attempt to direct Primordus into direct conflict.

Primordus didn't really "accept Braham" any more than he accepted the Stone Summit or the test subjects in Crucible of Eternity turned into destroyers though. You seem to be certain that Primordus made a conscious choice to say "I see this mortal, he seems like destroyer but isn't destroyer, I'll let him keep his free will." But this actually goes counter to everything we know about Primordus and how the game tries to constantly tell us that Primordus is an unthinking beast.

Edited March 29, 2022 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Kalavier.1097]

13 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

I don't think the fire scroll had anything to do with Primordus. The dragons can be hurt by things other then their specific weakness, the weakness is just the best/easiest way to kill them.

It being tied to the fire spirit mentioned in Bitterfrost makes more sense, not only with the story of that release, but also Asgeir's story. If channeling Primordus' power was what happened in the past, there really wouldn't need to be that whole story of Braham needing to realize thats what he needs to do now, the Spirits would have just gone "dude, get Primordus power lulz"

 

And doesn't Bjora marches imply the whole "The four spirits lead the norn south." isn't entirely accurate, with https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/A_Burden Outright saying that Jormag offered Aesgir a deal after the fight that broke the fang off. "Go south, I won't follow."

 

It's not that the Spirits knew about the scrolls or the origins of it, or even how to access Primordus's power.

 

2 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

I feel continuing this will just be an endless cycle as you completely ignored what I said.

Yes, he did use the fire scroll, but other things can harm Jormag. And both Jormag and Ryland outright proclaim that the bow wouldn't be capable of killing Jormag - and according to Tom Abernathy, Jormag doesn't lie. Just omits certain truths.

Primordus didn't really "accept Braham" any more than he accepted the Stone Summit or the test subjects in Crucible of Eternity turned into destroyers though. You seem to be certain that Primordus made a conscious choice to say "I see this mortal, he seems like destroyer but isn't destroyer, I'll let him keep his free will." But this actually goes counter to everything we know about Primordus and how the game tries to constantly tell us that Primordus is an unthinking beast.

 

Replying to both, here is my point about it.

A: We have a Jotun scroll of unknown origin that has fire magic that not only is the first thing in ages to even chip the tooth, but allows an arrow to stab into it and form a web of cracks.

B: Primordus and Jormag are each other's big weakness. Yes other things can hurt them, but the easiest way to do so is by each other.

C : All of a sudden, the single person who used that scroll can not only directly sense destroyer movements with exact accuracy, but also use that link to distract/bait them.

D : Said fire spirit of the bitterfrost frontier is never mentioned again.

 

It's not that "nothing else can hurt Jormag." but doesn't it make a bit of sense in that these details link up to imply the scroll is at some point, related to Primordus perhaps? The whole combo of the SINGULAR LIVING USER being not only the one whose weapon damages the tooth in a dramatic way when literally nothing else fielded by anybody since the tooth was hung up could even cause the tiniest chip, as well as that same user being able to directly sense and feel destroyers in a way nobody else alive can do?

 

It's not that the bow could directly kill Jormag, but it was a directly and serious threat. Which I believe Ryland also directly comments on in refusing to return Eir's Bow to Braham when demanded (before Braham goes to Primordus). Ah yes, he directly does.

Quote

Braham Eirsson: Since we're all playing nice, how about you return my bow. You know, the one you stole.

Ryland Steelcatcher: Now, why would I hand you a weapon you think can hurt Jormag? "Act first, think later," right?

 

I am not saying Primordus went "ah yes, lovely chap here. I'll leave him with his will." I'm saying that there was something there because of the fire scroll, which meant Primordus linked to Braham with the Spirit's protection and empowerment as opposed to simply outright destroying him during the encounter.  They needed an anchor for themselves, because "The dragon felt no affinity." That anchor is became Braham. Braham already had an affinity toward destroyers during the champions step.

Quote

Braham Eirsson: What went wrong?

Wolf: The dragon felt no affinity with us. We were almost devoured. We need a way to anchor ourselves.

Raven: He must be tricked into claiming the connection. How do you stop an avalanche, Eirsson?

Braham Eirsson: You don't—you get above it... Primordus needs a champion. A champion like Ryland. A harness...

Braham Eirsson: But what if I become li—

Bear: Why are you doing this? The attention? The legend? The power?

Braham Eirsson: No! I'm doing it so everyone will be safe. So my friends will survive!

Bear: And that is your spirit, Braham Eirsson. Never doubt your spirit.

Quote

Braham Eirsson: Too many elementals and destroyers—the commander's never gonna get a clean strike.

Myrun Skialkin: It's not always the swipe of the claws that's most important in a battle!

Braham Eirsson: I'm open to suggestions!

Myrun Skialkin: The destroyers are calling to you, aren't they? You sense each other—use that against them!

Braham Eirsson: How did you— What?

Locke Stonehealer: Bait. Be bait!

"The simplest explanation is often the correct one." I believe the saying goes? Braham finds fire scroll, which enables him to directly hurt the Fang. Said bow is stolen for the ability to hurt Jormag/the icebrood directly, and then purposefully kept far away from Braham and the others because it is a threat. Braham then is the only living being to actively sense destroyers. So maybe, just maybe, that scroll had something to do with Primordus. If they come out and say it didn't, I'll accept that. But it feels really odd to have this fire magic scroll not be linked to Primordus when the single user of it outright is shown later to have a connection to him and the destroyers. /shrug.

 

3 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

All three cases, we see zero evidence of the victim accepting Jormag. In fact, the very last word spoken out of both Honor's Voice and the quaggan are not only defiance but during the transformation process. As shown in Icebrood Saga, corruption doesn't begin the very second someone is starting to wonder "maybe Jormag's power would be good for me" - it takes a much, much longer time before Jormag grants power. Hours, days, or even weeks. Never seconds.
 

 

Yes, as I said. Jormag's direct corruption/magic kicks in after the person fully accepts the offer by Jormag and then starts to transform. After they fully accept the whispers and as the Kodan says, "Their voice is not their own."

 

And for the other part, yes the Svanir force it. And as famously stated in the past by Anet, Jormag considers the Svanir akin to ants, to the literal point of not giving a kitten about them actively killing female norn icebrood or worshippers. So there is a disconnect between "Those who Jormag recruited." and "Those who were forced by Svanir cultists."

 

In this, we fully agree. Jormag seduces into the icebrood, or openly accepts (frost Legion), while the Sons of Svanir brute force it.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

5 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

And doesn't Bjora marches imply the whole "The four spirits lead the norn south." isn't entirely accurate, with https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/A_Burden Outright saying that Jormag offered Aesgir a deal after the fight that broke the fang off. "Go south, I won't follow."

 

It's not that the Spirits knew about the scrolls or the origins of it, or even how to access Primordus's power.

That's not quite what A Burden suggests. There's a distinction between "lying about giving up the battle" and "lying about why we need to relocate".

We do not know if the Spirits leading the norn south is a lie, but that'd be a hard lie to establish given that there are accounts of witnessing the Lost Spirits battle Jormag overhead, and the only reason why Wolf, Raven, and Snow Leopard are revered on the same level as Bear is because of the four of them leading the norn south while the Lost Spirits fought Jormag.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/A_Spirit_of_Legend

Quote

Because of their history, the four most important Spirits of the Wild to the residents of the Great Lodge of Hoelbrak are Bear, Snow Leopard, Raven, and Wolf.

These spirits manifested themselves to lead the norn survivors south after their northern homelands were ravaged by the rise of the Elder Ice Dragon, Jormag. Bear is the most revered of all the spirits, and she is seen as an icon of strength, insight, and wisdom. Snow Leopard is a solitary, stealthy spirit, much like her animal kin, and the norn respect the secrets she collects. Raven is the cunning trickster who loves riddles and wordplay, and Wolf is the spirit of teamwork, friendship, and family. Norn choose to follow the path of a certain Spirit of the Wild because they feel a kinship to the lessons it teaches.

 

Quote

Replying to both, here is my point about it.

A: We have a Jotun scroll of unknown origin that has fire magic that not only is the first thing in ages to even chip the tooth, but allows an arrow to stab into it and form a web of cracks.

B: Primordus and Jormag are each other's big weakness. Yes other things can hurt them, but the easiest way to do so is by each other.

C : All of a sudden, the single person who used that scroll can not only directly sense destroyer movements with exact accuracy, but also use that link to distract/bait them.

D : Said fire spirit of the bitterfrost frontier is never mentioned again.

A) There is at no point any evidence that the jotun handle dragon magic. This is something only dwarves are known to have had done among the elder races. There is, however, evidence of jotun using powerful magics in the ancient past "unique" to them.

B) This has always been questionable, since Season 3, which not only presented the "each other unique weaknesses" for Jormag and Primordus, but also for Mordremoth and Zhaitan - despite the fact that "they are their own unique weakness" is a thing for those two. Edge of Destiny also establishes that Jormag and Primordus are their own unique weaknesses as well, particularly Primordus with how the Destroyer of Life is killed. Further, this is very reflective of using Branded blood-crystals for a Dragonsblood Spear to injure Kralkatorrik - it's useful, but nowhere near as effective as using Kralkatorrik's blood-crystals for a Dragonsblood Spear.

C) But Braham is not the only person who does this. Again, what Braham does is the same function as a blessing from Wolf in Eye of the North, which allows us to sense the presence of an icebrood, specifically our target at the time, Svanir. Braham used this very same ability to track down Owl. At the same time, we never had any indication of Asgeir having anything that can be considered destroyer related. Besides all of that, Icebrood Saga established that the big moment of change for Braham wasn't in Season 3, but in Bjora Marches, when he finally earned Wolf's respect and Became the Wolf - that was when Braham was able to detect things beyond his sight.

D) No mention of the scroll either, nor its source of power.

Quote

"The simplest explanation is often the correct one." I believe the saying goes? Braham finds fire scroll, which enables him to directly hurt the Fang. Said bow is stolen for the ability to hurt Jormag/the icebrood directly, and then purposefully kept far away from Braham and the others because it is a threat. Braham then is the only living being to actively sense destroyers. So maybe, just maybe, that scroll had something to do with Primordus. If they come out and say it didn't, I'll accept that. But it feels really odd to have this fire magic scroll not be linked to Primordus when the single user of it outright is shown later to have a connection to him and the destroyers. /shrug.

I feel the simplest answer is "Braham used an ability just like Wolf's blessings and Braham received Wolf's blessings in S5E2, the first moment of change for Braham (quite literally), so the ability is likely from Wolf."

Like you said: the fire spirit is never brought up in IBS, and neither is the scroll or its origins. But Wolf (and the Lost Spirits and lesser spirits) blessing Braham is.

Especially when the very next update established that simply touching Primordus' magic corrupts in painful and physical ways:

Quote

 

The treatment is slow, but among the forges there is a long-awaited sense of triumph. The Forge Colossus tears our foes limb from limb as its furnaces burn, and although the stone remains on our bodies, our thoughts are freed from its shackles.

With each phase, transformation can be felt within. Though we grudgingly accept our new bodies, we are bound for irreversible change. All has not been to plan, however. Some among us have not withstood the treatment. Their bodies were melted from within by fire, leaving behind nothing but ash. We mourn them, but their wills were perhaps not strong enough for the rites. The ritual priests propose the fallen may have been overwhelmed by a force connected to or perhaps superior to what we're harnessing. A being of pure and ancient fire.

Regardless, the Stone Summit will not yield. We are the masters of our lands and all within them.

The ice beast assaults have subsided, thus giving the guards a much needed reprieve. But I sense unrest within them. There has been infighting. We brought one before the priests for counseling, though he remained completely unresponsive to their ministrations. When released, he returned silently to his post as if nothing had occurred.

The mood has chilled. We speak little. There is a burning within us.

This will pass. Like with the stone, we must acclimate to fire.

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Books:_Records_of_the_Stone_Summit

Quote

Yes, as I said. Jormag's direct corruption/magic kicks in after the person fully accepts the offer by Jormag and then starts to transform. After they fully accept the whispers and as the Kodan says, "Their voice is not their own."

 

And for the other part, yes the Svanir force it. And as famously stated in the past by Anet, Jormag considers the Svanir akin to ants, to the literal point of not giving a kitten about them actively killing female norn icebrood or worshippers. So there is a disconnect between "Those who Jormag recruited." and "Those who were forced by Svanir cultists."

 

In this, we fully agree. Jormag seduces into the icebrood, or openly accepts (frost Legion), while the Sons of Svanir brute force it.

And yet all icebrood, be they "forced" or "seduced", are corrupted the same way - slowly becoming further ice infused over time.

Icebrood are not "gifted", they are not bonded like Caithe and Ryland. They're corrupted. Even Jormag specifies that they never bothered to bond - or "gift" as you call it - with a mortal until Ryland, so icebrood (or Frost Legion) can't be the same as Ryland.

Edited March 29, 2022 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Hypnowulf.7403]

The way they originally wrote it, I don't actually think it's either. I don't think they're corrupted or bonded. Ryland is an example of having the bond, yes, but the Svanir don't seem to be corrupted, per se. The way I see corrupted is that they really have absolutely no agency, they're just drones, like the husks in Mass Effect.

However, we see so many examples of the Svanir having free will and acting in a sapient way. Not only the ones at Hoelbrak, and the mysterious stranger that was added to the original Claw of Jormag meta, but also—my favourite example—the Svanir who're just chilling out in hotsprings, quite happily in fact, until the Blood Legion get up in their faces about it. There's something about it that...

Here's the thing. I think you're both right.

Ryland is bonded, as Jormag said. The others however aren't corrupted. They don't talk or behave like corrupted. What Jormag does is described as a gift. They've never given anything to anyone who hasn't asked for it, and Word of God gave it to us in no uncertain terms that Jormag doesn't lie. This is where I find Kalavier's terminology interesting.

It's something that isn't bonding, and also isn't in any way we understand it dragon corruption. Jormag, despite being battered by both Primordus's ongoing telepathic assaults and the Dragonvoid, was more salient than any of the Elder Dragons other than Soo-Won herself. It's likely that they had a way to utilise their magic that wasn't just corruption.

Jormag had never given anything to anyone who didn't ask for it, that power was a gift. That's why I find Kalavier's terminology so compelling. Jormag's whole bag was always persuasion, give-and-take; They gift their power in the hopes of ongoing allegiance.

I think of it in terms of protection. Jormag was driven so batty by being assaulted on all sides by Primordus and the Dragonvoid that their attitude, to me, seemed to be if I can't save myself with my power, I'll protect anyone who'll listen. This, thanks to the Dragonvoid, lead to paranoia. That was what the Dragonvoid did to Jormag, in my opinion, and they were still fighting that until the very end.

It's the whole notion of ice protects. They're being a protective mother. A very paranoid, protective mother. Please listen to me, let me protect you, let me give you my power so you won't be tortured the way I am. It's what I always got from them. I think part of the reason they reached out to Aurene was that if Aurene could've helped them with Primordus, Jormag could've protected Aurene.

There were quite a few instances of Jormag quite obviously stressing a desire for Aurene, they wanted her. And ice protects. The way they talked to Aurene too suggested that, before they were spurned. And when she was spurned, in comes the Dragonvoid to amplify that paranoia.

So I think it's a little... I don't know. I don't think it's in any way intentionally so, but a little reductive to call what Jormag did simply corruption. If it was corruption then they'd be behaving the way that all other dragon minions did, which clearly wasn't the case. The Svanir still had their culture, their art, their leisure time, and none of that suggests corrupted to me. Like I said, I think what Jormag did was much more like a very overprotective mother than a corruptor.

I honestly feel that matronly side of them was shown too in how they dealt with Bangar. They gave him a bit of an embarrassing time out, made him go sit in the corner. He got to wear the dunce cap.

Finally, I think the matronly, motherly aspect of Jormag was expressed with their children too. This is why I didn't do those events, because they actually traumatised me a little! Haha... Ha...

Drakkar was a baby. An actual baby. Sure, a large baby, but one who was teething on Jhavi's shield, just batting it around like a puppy, and very confused about what was going on. I think that were Dragon's Watch not so set on killing Drakkar, he could've been distracted by a giant ball of yarn. I mean, really, go watch the public meta with him and see for yourself...

Then there's the Claw of Jormag, who's acting a lot like a scared kid too. The Drizzlewood Coast meta Claw, I mean. When you invade his home, he's hiding behind an ice pillar, twitching, uncertain, lots of scared-looking body language. He's terrified of the invaders, but he doesn't want you to kill his mom who's trapped in the ice. He's a loyal kid.

Of course, once you shoot him out of the sky he has a panic attack. Dry heaving, staring off into the middle-distance (not looking at those whom you'd think he was "attacking"), weakly flailing... I'm serious about this. Go watch the meta. It's unnerving and upsetting! I didn't do that meta for the same reason.

The point is is that Jormag as a mother is driven home further by them having kids that act and behave like kids. Jormag is a paranoid mother who wants to protect all the babies. That's the way they treat all mortals—like children. You can hear it in how they talk about mortals to Aurene, even. The children need to be protected, they don't know what they're doing, they're children.

So, yes, some persuasive nudging rather than anything more domineering and manipulative (like Mordremoth) fits their profile perfectly. And again, that's what I see. I've explained my thoughts on this elsewhere. So, Jormag's own aren't corrupted, they're gifted and they may get nudged a bit but... I dunno. I'm not of a mind to think that doing art and lounging in hotsprings is the hallmark of corrupted.

Of course, that makes it all the more harrowing what happened to Jormag but.. That is what it is.

Edit: Oh, right. Lake Doric. That was another example of Jormag being I must protect the babies. Since if they hadn't intervened, a lot of nth-degree burns would've been doled out that day by Primordus. If Jormag has them frozen in icy cribs, they can't go getting themselves in danger. Jormag is very much like this. Excessively overptoective to a paranoid degree, but not domineering.

That's why I don't think theirs are corrupted.

Edit II: Oh, and anyone who didn't catch that Ryland was trying hardcore to be a mommy's boy? I don't know what to tell you. It was something he needed though after losing everyone he loved and his parents were so very bad at being anything emotional with him.

Edited March 29, 2022 by Hypnowulf.7403

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

2 hours ago, Hypnowulf.7403 said:

The way they originally wrote it, I don't actually think it's either. I don't think they're corrupted or bonded. Ryland is an example of having the bond, yes, but the Svanir don't seem to be corrupted, per se. The way I see corrupted is that they really have absolutely no agency, they're just drones, like the husks in Mass Effect.

However, we see so many examples of the Svanir having free will and acting in a sapient way. Not only the ones at Hoelbrak, and the mysterious stranger that was added to the original Claw of Jormag meta, but also—my favourite example—the Svanir who're just chilling out in hotsprings, quite happily in fact, until the Blood Legion get up in their faces about it. There's something about it that...

To clarify something: Sons of Svanir are not corrupted. Or rather, the ones in Hoelbrak or those hotsprings and those mysterious strangers are not corrupted. Bitterfrost had altered the name of icebrood to be "Svanir" instead which created confusion in a lot of people, but one key thing about the Sons of Svanir is that they're not yet corrupted. because of this renaming, the easiest way to tell the difference is the model:

A not-yet-corrupted Svanir versus a corrupted Svanir, for example.

So you're right - those you named aren't corrupted. Most Sons of Svanir aren't corrupted. The only icebrood to exhibit agency are the champions and lieutenants - which is the same for risen and even, albeit rarely, some branded.

But the average icebrood is indeed nigh mindless, as pointed out in A Crack in the Ice:

Svanir Seer: We've used all the thaw elixir. Go and gather ingredients to make more.

Svanir Brute: (wordless grunt)

Svanir Seer: Why do I have to do everything myself? Because I'm surrounded by idiots.

Svanir Seer: You there. Get out. We have no more elixir.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Frozen_in_Ice

And once they become icebrood, everyone calls them corrupted - other NPCs, the game mechanics (which separates Sons of Svanir from Icebrood) and, more important, the devs themselves.

 

As to the dragon champions acting like babies... Or Jormag acting motherly... I think you're putting too much thought into that. Because outside of one line from Jormag, I don't see it at all. Especially since Jormag canonically sees mortals as inconsequential ants - they even point this out, multiple times, themselves to Aurene. They've only called out three mortals as being worth interest: Aesgir, Pact Commander, and Ryland. Drakkar too, I suppose.

Edited March 29, 2022 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[ugrakarma.9416]

On 3/27/2022 at 6:57 PM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

• Primsatic, bonded, is a small oddity with not enough samples to draw a proper conclusion.

well caithe in LS4 ep5 can be a case of "de-corrupted prismatic"? anyway really odd, because when aurene "ressurrected" caithe gained again prismatic aspect, so inst a normal corruption, but a "bond".

Edited April 7, 2022 by ugrakarma.9416

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

18 hours ago, ugrakarma.9416 said:

well caithe in LS4 ep5 can be a case of "de-corrupted prismatic"? anyway really odd, because when aurene "ressurrected" caithe gained again prismatic aspect, so inst a normal corruption, but a "bond".

Caithe never lost her crystals in full. She just lost a few crystalline petals that were purely aesthetical growths. Look at Caithe during the beginning of The End, and you'll see she's just as crystalline as ever. Or even just this shot of the trailer. She's clearly blue and crystal still. Just missing the flowers on Caithe's shoulderpads.

 

This is a stark difference from Ryland becoming defrosted in IBS, which it's often paralleled to. Ryland lost all his ice - as did every other icebrood according to Gorrik.