Firebrand tomes nerf: pick one?

[Nephalem.8921]

On 4/8/2022 at 5:00 PM, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

Yes, it's there since it's a profession mechanic. 

What you seem to not understand is just because it is there it doesn't mean every Guard constantly uses it. It is not worth using Tome 2 for Condi cleanse or Regen when cFB already has a utility slot that is free choice, a slot that can be filled with Lore Mantra. You can use your Mantras while doing your rotation without interrupting yourself, to use Tome 2/3 you interrupt your rotation.
You see HFBs using Tome 1-2, since you can place a Fire field as HFB using Tome 1 as an example. You don't really see cFBs using Tome 2 all that much.

You seem to be heavily fixated on Reflects and Stability in Tome 3;
If you want Reflect you use Wall of Reflection, you can use it every 20/25 seconds, if you want a dome against projectiles there's Sanctuary at 40/50 s CD. I don't recall using Tome 3 reflect outside Adina and Matthias as backup, simply because the cooldown is so long it's not worth it.
Even on Matthias Mesmer is better for Reflect due to Feedback.
On Adina you bring an Alacren with Ventari, since Ventari bubble is superior to FB's Tome 3 for Reflects.

FBs use SYG for Stability, since it's 6 stacks on a 30s cooldown, not a single stack(up to 5 if you use all pages) on a 75 second cooldown.

Don't look at the tomes and judge them based on the boons you see because we will end up with your Tome 3 proposal.

Tome 1+3 or Tome 2+3 at less than 40 s CD would make some sense, but Tome 3 alone makes zero sense.

 

To clarify some misinformation.

Good dps fbs are using f2 and f3. If you go down and f2 wasnt used its a massive l2p issue. Almost a fullheal with no healing power. You can actually reflect adina as qfb with just f3 alone. stay in tome. that way the ren doesnt have to take ventari. Both have very low dps during hand phase anyways.

Tome 2 is very important for no healer 100cm. On matthias you have a 0 cost backup reflect. No other dps brings similar 0 cost utility.

Edited April 10, 2022 by Nephalem.8921

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

9 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

To clarify some misinformation.

Good dps fbs are using f2 and f3. If you go down and f2 wasnt used its a massive l2p issue. Almost a fullheal with no healing power.

It's stronger than DH F2 at the cost of taking longer to reach max.

9 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

You can actually reflect adina as qfb with just f3 alone. stay in tome. that way the ren doesnt have to take ventari. Both have very low dps during hand phase anyways.

You stay in F3 you deal no damage. Alacren uses Ventari it can still deal damage, let's not pretend sitting in Tome 3 pressing 3 every 5 seconds still somehow gets you DPS. If you want reflects from an FB make the  HFB do it, not the qFB.

9 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

Tome 2 is very important for no healer 100cm. 

Our discussion didn't mention Fractals, but yes, Tome 2 and 3 are much more useful in Fractals than in Raids/Strikes.

9 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

 On matthias you have a 0 cost backup reflect. No other dps brings similar 0 cost utility.

There's been a long time since I've been in a group that needed backup reflects on Matthias. Yes, Tome 3 is "0 cost", but if you have to use Tome 3 for backup more than once there are underlying problems with the group. 
Tome 3 reflect is basically Feedback, but tied to a 75 sec bundle.

[Kulvar.1239]

19 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

To clarify some misinformation.

Good dps fbs are using f2 and f3. If you go down and f2 wasnt used its a massive l2p issue. Almost a fullheal with no healing power. You can actually reflect adina as qfb with just f3 alone. stay in tome. that way the ren doesnt have to take ventari. Both have very low dps during hand phase anyways.

Tome 2 is very important for no healer 100cm. On matthias you have a 0 cost backup reflect. No other dps brings similar 0 cost utility.

Define "0 cost" then. Is not doing DPS while using them a cost ? Is that a cost that they could have had something else as their F2/F3 ? At what point a class feature become "0 cost" ? Is Thief steal 0 cost ? Is weapon swap 0 cost ?

[Nephalem.8921]

4 hours ago, Kulvar.1239 said:

Define "0 cost" then. Is not doing DPS while using them a cost ? Is that a cost that they could have had something else as their F2/F3 ? At what point a class feature become "0 cost" ? Is Thief steal 0 cost ? Is weapon swap 0 cost ?

Not having to replace a utility, weapon or trait for access is 0 cost. Thief steal is indeed 0 cost. its just useless most of the time.

Most utility skills do no dmg while using them. 1sec cast time is not an insane dps loss. You make it sound like fb has a 50% dps penalty when using one of the tomes just once.

[Kulvar.1239]

5 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

Not having to replace a utility, weapon or trait for access is 0 cost. Thief steal is indeed 0 cost. its just useless most of the time.

Most utility skills do no dmg while using them. 1sec cast time is not an insane dps loss. You make it sound like fb has a 50% dps penalty when using one of the tomes just once.

If you use F2 for 1 skill, it'll barely do anything... So what is it : do you camp the tome to use the skills, or do you barely use them ?

[Hotride.2187]

So funny to read how the tomes are not useful anyway. How does this contradict having to pick only one then? If the projectile reflect and stab is not needed in pve (what I'm reading here) just pick heal tome as hfb and the whole thread is done. For cfb a lot of players have written, the non-fire tome is a dps loss. And for wvw you just need the stab tome.

Spec has instantly less skills to learn and use, no1 complains it has access to too many more skills, everyone is happy. Or what, the tome skills are bad and useless but you wouldnt want to lose them? Which one is it?

 

Edited April 11, 2022 by Hotride.2187

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

4 hours ago, Hotride.2187 said:

So funny to read how the tomes are not useful anyway. How does this contradict having to pick only one then? If the projectile reflect and stab is not needed in pve (what I'm reading here) just pick heal tome as hfb and the whole thread is done. For cfb a lot of players have written, the non-fire tome is a dps loss. And for wvw you just need the stab tome.

Spec has instantly less skills to learn and use, no1 complains it has access to too many more skills, everyone is happy. Or what, the tome skills are bad and useless but you wouldnt want to lose them? Which one is it?

 

We can surely limit profession mechanics on a lot of builds if "Build X not uses it remove it" is applied.

Remove Water and Earth on Power Tempest, since they don't need utility, remove Fire and Air on Heal Tempest, they are there to heal, they don't need damage attunements even if they help in buffing.

Condi Scourge doesn't need F2-F4, you are DPS, you aren't using it that much.

Why does Condi Mirage need F1/3/4? It's a DPS build.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

2 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

We can surely limit profession mechanics on a lot of builds if "Build X not uses it remove it" is applied.

Remove Water and Earth on Power Tempest, since they don't need utility, remove Fire and Air on Heal Tempest, they are there to heal, they don't need damage attunements even if they help in buffing.

Condi Scourge doesn't need F2-F4, you are DPS, you aren't using it that much.

Why does Condi Mirage need F1/3/4? It's a DPS build.

Your arguments would be only valid IF skills you've mentioned gave much higher value like pressing F4 on Scourge would give you additional 5 skills with various effects or Elementalist Attuments would also spawn Conjure weapon on double-tap.
Otherwise you compare T-rex with Dolphin.
Firebrand kit is overloaded and that's a fact, the tomes are just cherry on the top of that juicy e-spec.
Now imagine if A-net had actually released Firebrand with pickable tomes through traits only, people wouldn't even think about "giv us all tomes 24/7" since the "base" would be set as "1 tome per 1 picked trait", but here we are people defending broken because they've got used to it.

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

3 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Your arguments would be only valid IF skills you've mentioned gave much higher value like pressing F4 on Scourge would give you additional 5 skills with various effects or Elementalist Attuments would also spawn Conjure weapon on double-tap.
Otherwise you compare T-rex with Dolphin.
Firebrand kit is overloaded and that's a fact, the tomes are just cherry on the top of that juicy e-spec.
Now imagine if A-net had actually released Firebrand with pickable tomes through traits only, people wouldn't even think about "giv us all tomes 24/7" since the "base" would be set as "1 tome per 1 picked trait", but here we are people defending broken because they've got used to it.

Oh yeah, I forgot that Scourge F4 is 15s CD and not 75s like Tome 3. Tell me exactly, how often do you think DPS FBs use Tome 3? Just about as often as a Scourge uses F2/3/4, probably even less.
And as I said many times before, just because there are 3 Tomes it doesn't mean every FB is using all 3 at the same time. 
People value Tome 2 and 3 way too high for cFBs. 

FB lost its ability to spam Aegis and now people swap to complain about Guard class mechanics, there must be always something about Guard people need to complain about. 

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

45 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

Oh yeah, I forgot that Scourge F4 is 15s CD and not 75s like Tome 3. Tell me exactly, how often do you think DPS FBs use Tome 3? Just about as often as a Scourge uses F2/3/4, probably even less.
And as I said many times before, just because there are 3 Tomes it doesn't mean every FB is using all 3 at the same time. 
People value Tome 2 and 3 way too high for cFBs. 

FB lost its ability to spam Aegis and now people swap to complain about Guard class mechanics, there must be always something about Guard people need to complain about. 

I don't get it, if Firebrands don't use "other" tomes then what's the actual problem with removing them from the pool of available tools at any given time and force it to be pickable via traits alone thus even possible to buff them and make them have some unique effects on the casts alone?
Where's a logic here?
 

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

11 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

I don't get it, if Firebrands don't use "other" tomes then what's the actual problem with removing them from the pool of available tools at any given time and force it to be pickable via traits alone thus even possible to buff them and make them have some unique effects on the casts alone?
Where's a logic here?
 

The logic lies with Mesmers not having to choose Shatters, Eles not having to choose Attunements, Scourges not having to choose their Shades. 

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

47 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

The logic lies with Mesmers not having to choose Shatters, Eles not having to choose Attunements, Scourges not having to choose their Shades. 

So far you haven't provided a single logical argument, you bring classes that pretty much can't even compare to Firebrand in the slightest for some unknown reasons just to justify bad concept.
Scourges do choose via traits their Shade skills so it's kinda bad example here, Mesmer alters their F1-F4 with e-speces and Eles either no changes or just gain AoE on F1-F5, but rest stays the same. None of them gain 5 more skills per F1-F4 for free.
I'm also fine with fully deleting all 1-5 Tomes skills and making the Tomes just a variation of Core as it should be from the beginning that fits "different playstyle" as per protocol.

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

1 hour ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Scourges do choose via traits their Shade skills so it's kinda bad example here

Which Scourge trait allows me to choose which Shade I want? Oh, none? 

1 hour ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Mesmer alters their F1-F4 with e-speces 

Yes, Guard also has different Virtues based on espec.

1 hour ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Eles either no changes or just gain AoE on F1-F5, but rest stays the same. 

I see no traits on Ele either that makes them choose which Attunemet they want.

1 hour ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

 None of them gain 5 more skills per F1-F4 for free

Virtue of Courage 45s CD, Shield of Courage 60s CD, Tome of Courage 75s CD, Crashing Courage 30s CD.
Virtue of Resolve 30s CD, Wings of Resolve 30s CD, Tome of Resolve 50s CD, Flowing Resolve 20s recharge.

So.. the versions that offer the most also have higher cooldowns and contain skills you won't even use? *Cough* Taunt *Cough*

It's as free as driving 15km to pick up a free sofa.

[Hotride.2187]

4 hours ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

We can surely limit profession mechanics on a lot of builds if "Build X not uses it remove it" is applied.

Go make a topic. This one is about FB (a spec known to have too much) and its tomes (about which some players complain).

[Kulvar.1239]

4 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Your arguments would be only valid IF skills you've mentioned gave much higher value like pressing F4 on Scourge would give you additional 5 skills with various effects or Elementalist Attuments would also spawn Conjure weapon on double-tap.
Otherwise you compare T-rex with Dolphin.
Firebrand kit is overloaded and that's a fact, the tomes are just cherry on the top of that juicy e-spec.
Now imagine if A-net had actually released Firebrand with pickable tomes through traits only, people wouldn't even think about "giv us all tomes 24/7" since the "base" would be set as "1 tome per 1 picked trait", but here we are people defending broken because they've got used to it.

What is your metric for the value of something ?

If you only look at how many skills it unfold into, you must truly despise Engineer kits.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

19 minutes ago, Kulvar.1239 said:

What is your metric for the value of something ?

If you only look at how many skills it unfold into, you must truly despise Engineer kits.

I take Core Classes as a "base" then I compare it with their Elite Specializations as per protocol.
Firebrand kit on it's own is simply overloaded with effects compared to it's core counterpart. It provides pulls, heals, ccs, reflects, damage, defense, boons, condies and that's only from F1-F3, sure it has higher cooldown than it's core, but the flexibility and amount of effects it provides doesn't even compare in long run. After that you can add Mantras that are 3 skills in 1 in reality.

[The Boz.2038]

33 minutes ago, Kulvar.1239 said:

What is your metric for the value of something ?

If you only look at how many skills it unfold into, you must truly despise Engineer kits.

I feel like I have pretty thoroughly pointed out why exactly the permanently available and always free tomes are overloaded. Did you miss those posts?

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

10 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

pulls

Axe 3

10 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

heals

Separate Tome on a 45s cooldown, if we go by healing it heals for more over a longer time compared to DH F2. 

10 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

 ccs

Axe 2 traited, Axe 3. Unless you mean the measly Tome 1 pull and Tome 3 Taunt which are laughable for CC, there's a reason you see cFBs running with Sanctuary for CC.

10 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

reflects

75s cooldown. Sanctuary is 40 traited, Wall is 20 traited. 

10 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

damage [...] condies

Obviously, F1 is used for Condi DPS.

10 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

defense

Such as? Resol and Aegis from Tome 3?

9 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

I feel like I have pretty thoroughly pointed out why exactly the permanently available and always free tomes are overloaded. Did you miss those posts?

As free as driving 15km for a free sofa. Wanna heal your group? Better stop your DPS rotation, wanna reflect on Adina? You ain't dealing damage. You want to heal another person or give Stab? Well, better wait 50/75 seconds.

Edited April 11, 2022 by IAmNotMatthew.1058

[Kulvar.1239]

1 hour ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

I take Core Classes as a "base" then I compare it with their Elite Specializations as per protocol.
Firebrand kit on it's own is simply overloaded with effects compared to it's core counterpart. It provides pulls, heals, ccs, reflects, damage, defense, boons, condies and that's only from F1-F3, sure it has higher cooldown than it's core, but the flexibility and amount of effects it provides doesn't even compare in long run. After that you can add Mantras that are 3 skills in 1 in reality.

That's your mistake. Core is not valid for comparing.
Every specialization is core + more choice for the heal/utilities/elite skills and a new weapon.

Just take Ranger.
Druid is Ranger + Avatar.
Soulbeast is Ranger + Beastmode.
Untamed is Ranger + Unleash.

Compared to Ranger, Firebrand lose Guardian Virtues.

[Nephalem.8921]

11 hours ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

Which Scourge trait allows me to choose which Shade I want? Oh, none? 

Yes, Guard also has different Virtues based on espec.

I see no traits on Ele either that makes them choose which Attunemet they want.

Virtue of Courage 45s CD, Shield of Courage 60s CD, Tome of Courage 75s CD, Crashing Courage 30s CD.
Virtue of Resolve 30s CD, Wings of Resolve 30s CD, Tome of Resolve 50s CD, Flowing Resolve 20s recharge.

So.. the versions that offer the most also have higher cooldowns and contain skills you won't even use? *Cough* Taunt *Cough*

It's as free as driving 15km to pick up a free sofa.

Are you going this route? Should i link some ele utilities and their cooldowns? The ele weapon skills are balanced with all the attunements in mind. Most of the effects of 3-4 ele weapon skills would be 1 guardian skill. This will be fun:

Armor of earth. 50sec cd. 6sec of prot and stab to yourself. Very strong meme potential.

Cleansing fire. 40sec cd. Cleanses 5 conditions on yourself. This is a utility completely inferior to tome of resolve which fb gets for free.

Actually i could list almost all ele utilities here. Dont ever start comparing guardian utility to other classes. You can only lose. Not sure if you have tried playing something besides guardian or fb but other classes come with drawbacks usually. Guardian doesnt.

Edited April 12, 2022 by Nephalem.8921

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

6 hours ago, Kulvar.1239 said:

That's your mistake. Core is not valid for comparing.
Every specialization is core + more choice for the heal/utilities/elite skills and a new weapon.

Just take Ranger.
Druid is Ranger + Avatar.
Soulbeast is Ranger + Beastmode.
Untamed is Ranger + Unleash.

Compared to Ranger, Firebrand lose Guardian Virtues.

We're discussing here Guardian and Firebrand and you bring Ranger which doesn't qualify as legit elite specializations and try to use it as an argument? Are you serious right now?
The only class that actually has proper elite specializations that fully change your playstyle is Necromancer, every other class is just Core+ which goes against what A-net desired from that system. 
Ranger in long run is a class that loses a lot from the system because of it's core design that pretty much doesn't allow for changes that would actually let it fully shine, it's being held back by a alot.
Druid could fully get rid of pets and focus on Avatar skills as F1-F5 with Celestial Avatar as energy source, Soulbeast could get rid completely of having pets and only focus on swapping between their F1-F3 skills of pets. Untamed could lose a weapon swap and in exchange the skills on Hammer would be dependant on pet family. There's so many possibilities on this class, but it's being trashed by the e-spec system so badly.
Core class should always be relevant and on the same footing as elite specializations, otherwise GW2 can be claimed as P2W.

[The Boz.2038]

8 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

Not sure if you have tried playing something besides guardian or fb but other classes come with drawbacks usually. Guardian doesnt.

Keeps claiming so, but saying "Scourge doesn't use F2-4" really hints otherwise.

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

12 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

Actually i could list almost all ele utilities here. Dont ever start comparing guardian utility to other classes. You can only lose. Not sure if you have tried playing something besides guardian or fb but other classes come with drawbacks usually. Guardian doesnt.

Considering Guard is only my 4th most played profession yeah, I'm playing professions other than Guard. 

4 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Keeps claiming so, but saying "Scourge doesn't use F2-4" really hints otherwise.

Point me where you use F2-4 in your DPS rotation and not as a utility. Where do you need to cleanse conditions, apply Fear or Barrier in your rotation? If it's not part of the rotation you have it for free and should be made to choose which Shade you want. 

[The Boz.2038]

18 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

Point me where you use F2-4 in your DPS rotation and not as a utility. Where do you need to cleanse conditions, apply Fear or Barrier in your rotation? If it's not part of the rotation you have it for free and should be made to choose which Shade you want. 

Literally constantly, on cooldown, life-force allowing, to proc Dhuumfire. How do you not know this?

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

3 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Literally constantly, on cooldown, life-force allowing, to proc Dhuumfire. How do you not know this?

I know that Dhuumfire affects all Shroud skills, should be fixed as it says Skill 1. F2-F5 isn't skill 1.