Firebrand tomes nerf: pick one?

[The Boz.2038]

1 minute ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

I know that Dhuumfire affects all Shroud skills, should be fixed as it says Skill 1. F2-F5 isn't skill 1.

As per F1, Manifest Sand Shade: "Using a shade ability strikes enemies near you and your shades." 

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

Just now, The Boz.2038 said:

As per F1, Manifest Sand Shade: "Using a shade ability strikes enemies near you and your shades." 

Yes, F1 is skill 1, but F2 is skill 2, not 1. FB should be able to grant Ashes with any Tome 1 skill after using Page 5.

[The Boz.2038]

15 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

Yes, F1 is skill 1, but F2 is skill 2, not 1. FB should be able to grant Ashes with any Tome 1 skill after using Page 5.

Yeah, at this point, I'm no longer convinced you know how Virtues function, either.
Your thoughts on the issue at hand are not relevant.

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

16 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Yeah, at this point, I'm no longer convinced you know how Virtues function, either.

Likewise after your proposal of a standalone Tome 3

But hey, Dhuumfire working on all 5 skills instead of F1 while Transfusion only working on F4 despite both being "Shroud skill X" is totally not a bug.

Why not let FB grant Ashes on every boon application instead of just Quickness? If Dhuumfire works as intended in it's current form Quickfire would be fine too. 

[Kulvar.1239]

10 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

We're discussing here Guardian and Firebrand and you bring Ranger which doesn't qualify as legit elite specializations and try to use it as an argument? Are you serious right now?
The only class that actually has proper elite specializations that fully change your playstyle is Necromancer, every other class is just Core+ which goes against what A-net desired from that system. 
Ranger in long run is a class that loses a lot from the system because of it's core design that pretty much doesn't allow for changes that would actually let it fully shine, it's being held back by a alot.
Druid could fully get rid of pets and focus on Avatar skills as F1-F5 with Celestial Avatar as energy source, Soulbeast could get rid completely of having pets and only focus on swapping between their F1-F3 skills of pets. Untamed could lose a weapon swap and in exchange the skills on Hammer would be dependant on pet family. There's so many possibilities on this class, but it's being trashed by the e-spec system so badly.
Core class should always be relevant and on the same footing as elite specializations, otherwise GW2 can be claimed as P2W.

Funny how as soon as something break your rhetoric, it's "not legit".

How druid, soulbeast, and untamed not losing anything from core ranger not legit ?
Firebrand lose core guardian virtues at least.

How can you say that what ANet did for 8 classes goes AGAINST what they desired?
Seems like it's EXACTLY what they desired.

Druid & Soulbeast could lose pet, but ANet did not do that, so it seems they're perfectly fine with it.
Removing weapon swap on Untamed because of hammer would mean you can ONLY play hammer, which is terrible design.
No specialization is forced to play with their elite weapon because all the other are made trash.

If ANet wanted to have Core as relevant as specialization, they would not have made the trait system the way it is because core are all worse than their elites.

If you disagree with ANet, ask them to change that first before calling for a firebrand nerf. Your opinion on what the balance of core vs elites should be is not backed by ANet, therefore your opinion on balancing firebrand is worthless. Change ANet opinion first on core vs elites, then come back talking about elite balance.

[The Boz.2038]

8 minutes ago, Kulvar.1239 said:

How druid, soulbeast, and untamed not losing anything from core ranger not legit ?
Firebrand lose core guardian virtues at least.

Druid, soulbeast, untamed all lost stuff. Namely, pet stats, pet swap, and being good.
Firebrand got virtues upgraded. At the very most worst possible you might argue "but casting time", but meh. You dare say druid lost nothing, so you don't get to do this.

10 minutes ago, Kulvar.1239 said:

If you disagree with ANet, ask them to change that first before calling for a firebrand nerf.

Why? You really think whataboutery is how the world works?

10 minutes ago, Kulvar.1239 said:

Your opinion on what the balance of core vs elites should be

...is not relevant to the topic at hand: namely, Firebrand gets a free and permanently available kit of the most useful effects in the game for absolutely free, a kit that is head and shoulders above what any other e-spec gets at no choice.
Feel like people are again pretending we're talking about something we're not.

[Kulvar.1239]

3 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

 Firebrand gets a free and permanently available kit of the most useful effects in the game for absolutely free, a kit that is head and shoulders above what any other e-spec gets at no choice.

Not free, he loses core virtues.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

28 minutes ago, Kulvar.1239 said:

Funny how as soon as something break your rhetoric, it's "not legit".

How druid, soulbeast, and untamed not losing anything from core ranger not legit ?
Firebrand lose core guardian virtues at least.

How can you say that what ANet did for 8 classes goes AGAINST what they desired?
Seems like it's EXACTLY what they desired.

Druid & Soulbeast could lose pet, but ANet did not do that, so it seems they're perfectly fine with it.
Removing weapon swap on Untamed because of hammer would mean you can ONLY play hammer, which is terrible design.
No specialization is forced to play with their elite weapon because all the other are made trash.

If ANet wanted to have Core as relevant as specialization, they would not have made the trait system the way it is because core are all worse than their elites.

If you disagree with ANet, ask them to change that first before calling for a firebrand nerf. Your opinion on what the balance of core vs elites should be is not backed by ANet, therefore your opinion on balancing firebrand is worthless. Change ANet opinion first on core vs elites, then come back talking about elite balance.

It's not legit because A-net has clearly stated that Elite Specializations are supposed to be "sidegrades" or "new playstyles" and not straight "upgrades" to the core in which they've failed in most classes and that's the reality.
Ranger core kit is about having a pet 24/7 and it's elite specializations does nothing to change that state in the slightest, you may say they reduce stats for pets or that you can get rid of pet with Soulbeast, but at the end of the day it still resolves around pets which in my eyes is a failure of design that goes against "new playstyle/sidegrade" claim since it's just another "core+".
In case of Firebrand, it does only lose an active part of Virtues and in exchange it gains much more utility from each Tome at any given time, which means it's straight upgrade to the Core, which again goes against "new playstyle/sidegrade".
I only dropped random ideas for Untamed, these changes could go for all weapons to justify losing a weapon swap, thus giving players much more freedom of choice to build their character as they wish. Though Untamed is just weak overall concept in long run IMO.
I'm pretty sure that A-net made current trait system because they haven't really planned to add more to the classes themselves. It really doesn't make sense with it's design to add elite specializations in it's current form, because there are classes that will always benefit on all levels like Necromancer and there are classes that will always lose like Elementalist. I think the idea about adding more to the classes were invented after finalizing trait system.

[Kulvar.1239]

16 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

It's not legit because A-net has clearly stated that Elite Specializations are supposed to be "sidegrades" or "new playstyles" and not straight "upgrades" to the core in which they've failed in most classes and that's the reality.
Ranger core kit is about having a pet 24/7 and it's elite specializations does nothing to change that state in the slightest, you may say they reduce stats for pets or that you can get rid of pet with Soulbeast, but at the end of the day it still resolves around pets which in my eyes is a failure of design that goes against "new playstyle/sidegrade" claim since it's just another "core+".
In case of Firebrand, it does only lose an active part of Virtues and in exchange it gains much more utility from each Tome at any given time, which means it's straight upgrade to the Core, which again goes against "new playstyle/sidegrade".
I only dropped random ideas for Untamed, these changes could go for all weapons to justify losing a weapon swap, thus giving players much more freedom of choice to build their character as they wish. Though Untamed is just weak overall concept in long run IMO.
I'm pretty sure that A-net made current trait system because they haven't really planned to add more to the classes themselves. It really doesn't make sense with it's design to add elite specializations in it's current form, because there are classes that will always benefit on all levels like Necromancer and there are classes that will always lose like Elementalist. I think the idea about adding more to the classes were invented after finalizing trait system.

absolutely, they added elite specialisation after.

If ANet wanted to have core on par with elite, ANet would have made it with a core specialization trait line for available baseline. And when ANet want to buff core without buffing elites, they would improve that trait line. It would either be a new trait line or an existing trait line that is made core only (would probably end up be the 5th one in this case as it's the most generic one).

Edited April 12, 2022 by Kulvar.1239

[Nephalem.8921]

6 hours ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

Considering Guard is only my 4th most played profession yeah, I'm playing professions other than Guard. 

Point me where you use F2-4 in your DPS rotation and not as a utility. Where do you need to cleanse conditions, apply Fear or Barrier in your rotation? If it's not part of the rotation you have it for free and should be made to choose which Shade you want. 

All scourge abilities pulse the dmg from f1. including dhuumfire and torment. thats why rolling your face over your keyboard is very close to optimal scourge gameplay.

[The Boz.2038]

On 4/12/2022 at 5:44 PM, Kulvar.1239 said:

Not free, he loses core virtues.

Sad that you actually believe this, but I guess an FB main would. 

[Kulvar.1239]

11 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Sad that you actually believe this, but I guess an FB main would. 

I'm not a FB main. I only like the asura in racial heavy armor avatar.

[Kuma.1503]

As much as I think FB deserves to be nerfed as a jaded ex-Scrapper Enjoyer, I don't think this is the way to do it. 

It would make it more balanced, but it would also dumb it down while killing a lot of the fun of playing the spec. The gameplay of flipping through tomes to find the right skill at the right time is a big draw of the spec. It fits the rp of a well read scholar pulling from their vast pool of knowledge to pick the right spell at the right time in combat. 

Firebrand should remain a heavy utility spec, but it should have a MUCH bigger damage trade-off as a result. FB's damage should be on par with or lower than scrappers since it has the best utility in the game. Give them the option to trait for more damage, but at a cost to their utility. 

The alternative is to buff other supports to the level of Firebrand (and recently Mechanist), or perhaps do a mixture of the two. Reduce QB's dps to ~26-28k from 32k, and buff other supports up a notch. Maybe give Tempest some love since it's struggling to find its place in PvE.