Alternative path for PVE Legendary Armor

[Erise.5614]

27 minutes ago, Albi.7250 said:

But it isn´t one person. It is 90% of the people. Not you, but the vast majority. And i tried to provide an comparable price. I even did write down a theoretical Mystic forge recipe which can be done solely by open world play which hits all criteria that were demanded from the OW Armor crowd. Which got ignored. Reposted by another user still ignored. And i am guessing of course here: Probably cause it seemed like to much work. Which ngl kinda stings a bit, as that took quite a bit of time and effort to research and calculate.(for a forum post anyway)

 

But hey I am just one guy and as people stated at the end Anet does decide. SO we will see.

Of course it's ignored. No value or amount you say should be taken serious. Just like no value or amount I say should be taken serious. Nor numbers about duration or value anyone else mentions. 
That is up to economy designers to figure out. I doubt anyone in this conversation is qualified to even theoretically do that, and even if someone is they still lack data. 

Also, if 90% of the users in this thread ask for unreasonable things, you surely are able to quote those and share your numbers about that, right? It's not just spin and bias on your end, is it? 

Edited April 15, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

10 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Neither did legendary trinkets and armor. But apparently "what was and wasn't since the start" only matters when it supports the narrative you want it to support.

So the original goal , wasnt meant that Raids should have Legendary Gear .

So they are not bound to them , and we can put them in OW

Edited April 15, 2022 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[Sobx.1758]

2 minutes ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

So the original goal , wasnt meant that Raids should have Legendary Gear .

So they are not bound to them , and we can put them in OW

"It wasn't in the game earlier, so now when we have more content and rewards, we need to put the rewards into old content, because that's what was originally in the game at release".

Huh, right. That's not how games with 10 years of patches and content expansions work.

Edited April 15, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

10 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

"It wasn't in the game earlier, so now when we have more content and rewards, we need to put the rewards into old content, because that's what was originally in the game at release".

Huh, right.

Still there weren't created for Raids .

The first iteration of kill once a Raid boss to unlock the XP bar and get the Spirit shard , didn't do the trick . They needed a carrot

Edited April 15, 2022 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[Sobx.1758]

57 minutes ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

Still there weren't created for Raids .

The first iteration of kill once a Raid boss to unlock the XP bar and get the Spirit shard , didn't do the trick .

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/legendary-armor-is-coming-soon/

Quote

When we started creating raids, our aim was to produce complex endgame combat that would really give players a chance to demonstrate their skills, abilities, and tactical thinking in overcoming its challenges. As a reward for defeating the raid bosses, we realized early on that we would need something that reflects your success to other players. Enter legendary armor—the ultimate pinnacle of armor in all of Tyria.

Creating the armor has been a very long and intense process; we’ve never produced any armor set as complicated as the legendary armor. A key original requirement was that the armor should animate. However, when we started digging into what that entailed, it soon became apparent that this wouldn’t be simple: for us to accommodate that design vision required multiple engineering changes to the underlying game engine.

Maybe just stop guessing because you want easier optional rewards.

Edited April 15, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[SlayerXX.7138]

1 minute ago, Erise.5614 said:

Of course it's ignored. No value or amount you say should be taken serious. Just like no value or amount I say should be taken serious. Nor numbers about duration or value anyone else mentions. 
That is up to economy designers to figure out. I doubt anyone in this conversation is qualified to even theoretically do that, and even if they lack data. 

Also, if 90% of the users in this thread ask for unreasonable things, you surely are able to quote those and share the number of participants in the conversation, right? It's not just spin and bias on your end, is it? 

I mean i could link to the breather and legendary Amor wiki page for an easy doublecheck that the numbers aren't fudged and if not exact at least a reasonable estimation. Anyways I could name people. But forum rules prevent that, as that is a bannable offense. But if you ask again, I provide and get myself banned to make a point if a must.

[Forum Moderator.3419]

Hello Everyone,

Just a reminder to keep it civil and avoid attacking each other. I've removed a few posts.

Regards.

[Erise.5614]

19 minutes ago, Albi.7250 said:

To fulfill that request I have to quote multiple people (naming) and explain why its clear they want an easy reward(I wouldn't consider that shaming but they will, and they will report me and there is nothing I can do against that). Btw Counter question can you name1 single Person who clearly stated how much there willing to do. One single Person. Which couldn't be considered shaming in any form as that would be praising them. 1 Person can you quote my a single Person?

Edit: Killthehealer for example seems to be only interested in mocking people. And i already called the other person out, who clearly stated fairness isnt his goal( in other words he wants it easy)

Very easily.

Quote

the most common opinion is, though, that it should be comparable to other ways of acquiring legendary armor, in the sense that it have to have gold/material sink, timegate aspect to it and certain level of dedication

Though I'm guessing one example will just be ignored or someone will demand more and more examples or what not. When really, I'm just curious how you are arriving at 90%. It doesn't seem to me like even a majority has called for any specific amount. Whether it be low or high. 
Just some people seem to be extremely focused on specific numbers and then focusing on isolated opinions. Seemingly in an attempt to generalize everyone as lazy and entitled. 

When really. We'd just like a second PvE path that includes less instanced content and more OW. Some instanced, some WvW, some PvP could be fine. But it would be nice if it was just nudging people to try those modes out while giving the option to grind most of it in the preferred style of play. 

Edited April 15, 2022 by Erise.5614

[SlayerXX.7138]

1 hour ago, Erise.5614 said:

Very easily.

Then show my please. "certain level of dedication" can mean anything. That's not even a ballpark. It can´t be that hard to find one person that is specific. Another Example  of a person who states Legendary Stuff need to big of a grind right now:

  

2 hours ago, Redfeather.6401 said:

I have almost every weapon type and armour type in ascended right now and I will never grind for legendary just for the QoL features. The grind is too much after all that I've done. I am not the type of person to spend my life on a single game. I play multiple games. If a game starts asking too much then it takes a backseat to other games.

But if they added a way to turn my ascended into something that the legendary armoury will accept, then I would consider doing that task and that is a way of retaining players like me.

Which is understandable Legendary ARE a huge grind probably around 10 times as hard to get as ascended Version of an item. There is a reason not every raider, WvWer and Pvper owns a set.

Edited April 15, 2022 by Albi.7250

[Erise.5614]

7 minutes ago, Albi.7250 said:

Then show my please. "certain level of dedication" can mean anything. That's not even a ballpark. It can be that hard to find one person that is specific. Another Example  of a person who states Legendary Stuff need to big of a grind right now:

Would you like to explain why a finalized and fully defined amount is so important? What value does that provide to ANet or the discussion? Why is it not just derailing the conversation? How is this line of argument constructive rather than intended to spread negativity? 

None of this will have any impact on what precise values ANet might end up implementing anyway. In the already hypothetical scenario that they even implement anything of the sort in the first place. (Which would be neat and is what this thread is about. Just this last part)

Edited April 15, 2022 by Erise.5614

[blp.3489]

23 hours ago, Albi.7250 said:

Lets say A mystic forge recipe for open world armor would look something like. Replace the berries and unbound magic with a currency of your choice but equal value.

 

1. Gift of exploration
2. Gift of Open world Power 
   1. 50 Jump coins
   2. Eldritch Scroll
   3. 50 obsidian shards
   4. Cube of Stabilized Dark Energy
3. Gift of Open World Dedication
   1. 35 Jump coins
   2. Glob of Condensed Spirit Energy
   3. Glob of Berries(1200Berries)
   4. Star of unbound magic(24k unbound magic)
4. Precursor

Unbound magic and Berries are used cause Breather is the only thing I have to compare.  But Open world legendary armor should look something like that, obviously with berries and unbound magic replaced with more up to date currency of equal value. That is to much work for the open world crowd right? Cause it checks all the boxes. It is fair. It isn't skilled depended. You can keep doing what you want while working to the Legendary.

You are right, this did get ignored.  The reasons I personally don't find it compelling are:

- I would much rather use a gift of battle because it is a tiny fraction of the effort required for gift of exploration.  That said, I would not object to being able to use a gift of exploration if one preferred.

- I have acrophobia, jump puzzles make me sweaty and give me vertigo, I hate them.  It's a personal bias.

As you mention winterberries are very specific to one particular map, as unbound magic is specific to one LW season, it isn't clear to me how to make this work more generally.

After looking at your proposal I went back and looked at the crafting steps/ingredient list for WvW legendary armor and came to the conclusion that they only significant problem I had with it was the painful grind for skirmish claim tickets, in particular due to the way they are tied to the number of hours you do per week instead of the total number of hours.

This makes me wonder if there isn't the possibility of creating some common or convertible currency that can stand in for a certain amount of grinding, let's call it a "ground stone".  Then, all we have to do is determine what activities in what game modes "deserve" a ground stone.  Purely as a hypothetical example, we might say that killing a Champion in the open world is worthy of a ground stone, or maybe you have to kill five Champions, I don't know, whatever.  Then, just like you take your 350 claim tickets to the vendor and buy an ascended piece of armor that you later use to create your legendary armor piece, there would be a vendor that would do the same but taking ground stones instead of claim tickets.  You could also buy a Legendary Ground Stone for 1095 ground stones and substitute that for the Legendary Insight in producing a legendary armor piece.

It seems to me that there ought to be some reasonably uncontroversial "equivalent" amount of grind to the grind needed to get a claim ticket.

To go back to your recipe and method of calculation, one could calculate the cost in winterberries and/or unbound magic to purchase a ground stone.  The same for other account bound currencies people can grind for.

[Sobx.1758]

^see, even here there's "I want slightly less effort" and "I have x, so I won't do that" to pick at another acquisition process (which I'm still not in favor of btw, explanation below).

Meanwhile, all I think here is that leggy gear is entirely optional and as such is a good way to push some people into discovering broader content of the game. Still, nobody is forced into anything, since there's no problem with playing in ex/asc gear. The biggest (probably only) directly related to that fact complaint I've seen is something along the lines of "I don't want to acquire new gear when it's introduced into the game" (or for another build). But mostly that gear is easly acquired in OW content, so I'm not sure why this is somehow an issue for those very same players wanting to play strictly OW content? This is also why from what I see pretty much everything here boils down to avoiding effort. Even if it's not needed in the first place (to acquire some highly specific gear), because that's how most of the game is balanced, especially in OW.

Edited April 15, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Redfeather.6401]

41 minutes ago, Albi.7250 said:

Which is understandable Legendary ARE a huge grind probably around 10 times as hard to get as ascended Version of an item. There is a reason not every raider, WvWer and Pvper owns a set.

The point of my post is  I have almost a full set of all ascended gear. The game was designed in such a way as to look at all my ascended gear and proclaim "So what? That isn't the right KIND of ascended to become legendary!" And if I want to access the legendary armoury in any way I must scrap all what I've done and start over from scratch. Which I'll never ever do. I find it absurd. 🤣

Edited April 15, 2022 by Redfeather.6401

[Sobx.1758]

1 hour ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

People have already discovered Raid. They know their existence .

It doesn't hurt to have an extra option .

Please respond to what I said in my post in its entirity. It's not long and it's one connected train of thoughts. The justification that I'd need to include in this response is also already in what you've quoted above. So please re-read and respond to all of it, explaining what's wrong about what I said.

Edited April 15, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

10 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Please respond to what I said in my post in its entirity. It's not long and it's one conntected train of thought. The justification that I'd need to include in this response is also already in what you've quoted above. So please re-read and respond to all of it, explaining what's wrong about what I said.

There's nothing  wrong you did , but an other option won't hurt

[SlayerXX.7138]

50 minutes ago, blp.3489 said:

- I would much rather use a gift of battle because it is a tiny fraction of the effort required for gift of exploration.  That said, I would not object to being able to use a gift of exploration if one preferred.

The WvW armor doesn't cost only a gift of battle. It uses https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Gift_of_War_Prosperity Which has a heavy material cost on top of gift of battle to it. So gift of exploration seemed to be in the same Tier. 

 

50 minutes ago, blp.3489 said:

- I have acrophobia, jump puzzles make me sweaty and give me vertigo, I hate them.  It's a personal bias.

Mesmer Portal!!!! Kidding aside it is just an example could be everything OW related. if you increase the number it could be drops from elite mobs what have you.
Edit: Or World boss kills one per week per boss. Something somewhat specific so people don't farm drizzle wood over and over again while gaining extra currency on top.

 

50 minutes ago, blp.3489 said:

After looking at your proposal I went back and looked at the crafting steps/ingredient list for WvW legendary armor and came to the conclusion that they only significant problem I had with it was the painful grind for skirmish claim tickets, in particular due to the way they are tied to the number of hours you do per week instead of the total number of hours.

Also Anet thinks Winterberry's = air ship parts and 1 Airship part = 10 Jade sliver.  That would be a WvW style currency as Jade slivers are passively generated and kind of limited.  

Which would take 17 000 Jade sliver(5000 for the precursor and 12000 to upgrade to legendary)  for 1 Armor piece. Which would be passively generated Obviously a massive undertaking like the WvW one just without playing WvW. Ball park of course. Could 14k could be 20k. but around that.

 

As that is mostly just to ballpark how expensive legendary Armor is lets say instead of 30k(precursor + upgrade) unbound magic

we use around 30k Volatile magic(as most OW players probably have some concept of that in terms of value and effort. 20% up or down isnt that important. But its around that order of magnitude to get 1 piece.

 

 

Which is a HUGE amount of stuff i know. There is a reason not everyone in PvP and WvW owns Legendary Armor.

Edited April 15, 2022 by Albi.7250

[SlayerXX.7138]

Edit. Deleted Duplicate Post.

Edited April 15, 2022 by Albi.7250

[The Boz.2038]

3 hours ago, blp.3489 said:

If you give me discounted non-Legendary Armor with ascended stats

Ascended armor is 30-40g per piece. Legendary is ~300. How much of a discount would you want for *all of the stats ever*; if you just want to fiddle around and experiment with a build? Why do you consider exotic unworthy of the "fiddle around and experiment" tier, and use it to test out a build, see if you like it, and if you do, upgrade *that* build to ascended?

[SlayerXX.7138]

1 hour ago, Erise.5614 said:

Would you like to explain why a finalized and fully defined amount is so important? What value does that provide to ANet or the discussion? Why is it not just derailing the conversation? How is this line of argument constructive rather than intended to spread negativity? 

None of this will have any impact on what precise values ANet might end up implementing anyway. In the already hypothetical scenario that they even implement anything of the sort in the first place. (Which would be neat and is what this thread is about. Just this last part)

Because values matter. If it would take 20 hours of WvW for a full armor Set this threat wouldn't exist. What else is there to discuss? Are people fine with OW Legendary armor? Answer: Mostly Yes as long as it isn't free.  So the only thing left to discuss is what effort is needed.  We don't need to be precise. But we gonna estimate it somehow.  Otherwise there isn't any meaning to any of that.

[The Boz.2038]

2 hours ago, Erise.5614 said:

Of course it's ignored. No value or amount you say should be taken serious. Just like no value or amount I say should be taken serious. Nor numbers about duration or value anyone else mentions. 
That is up to economy designers to figure out. I doubt anyone in this conversation is qualified to even theoretically do that, and even if someone is they still lack data. 

Also, if 90% of the users in this thread ask for unreasonable things, you surely are able to quote those and share your numbers about that, right? It's not just spin and bias on your end, is it? 

What a useless point.
Nobody should ever try and come up with a concrete suggestion, because we're not game designers hired by ANet, then, right?
So at what point do we draw the line? Can you make a suggestion that "there should be OW leggy armor"? Obviously we can. You're in the thread right now, supporting the idea. 
Can you maybe hint at what the ballpark cost/effort it would take to make it? No? Oh, this is where we're not competent or relevant, eh? That's... not even a standard enough to be called double, lol.

 

[Erise.5614]

44 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

What a useless point.
Nobody should ever try and come up with a concrete suggestion, because we're not game designers hired by ANet, then, right?
So at what point do we draw the line? Can you make a suggestion that "there should be OW leggy armor"? Obviously we can. You're in the thread right now, supporting the idea. 
Can you maybe hint at what the ballpark cost/effort it would take to make it? No? Oh, this is where we're not competent or relevant, eh? That's... not even a standard enough to be called double, lol.

Certainly more on topic and on point than constant goal post shifting and insinuating that everyone is lazy as some in this thread happen to do quite consistently.

If we can agree on the basic premise that an OW armor would be a good addition for the game I'm fine to move on to discussing potential challenges and risks of certain acquisition methods. But since there is no foundation or shared understanding of the basic premise of the thread, any discussion about specifics is just throwing around random numbers and contextless ideas with no clear purpose. 

Talking about design and ideas is fine. But nothing could be less relevant than whether it should take 284 hours of gameplay or 300. Or 275. Any more specificity than "comparable to X" is only leading to pointless nitpicking. 

[Erise.5614]

12 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Name one, or stop with the dishonest accusations, tyvm.

Like someone mentioning how it takes 284 hours in another game mode. Someone else says ok. But then 284 is suddenly not the right number anymore, and the same person says it's the lowest possible amount and therefore it should be significantly higher in this other game mode to remain fair.

[The Boz.2038]

So two people going into nuances is goalpost-shifting? Even if you think their conversation is irrelevant at the same time, right?

Huh.

[Erise.5614]

19 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

So two people going into nuances is goalpost-shifting? Even if you think their conversation is irrelevant at the same time, right?

Huh.

That was a textbook example of goalpost shifting. Saying something, someone else is fine with it and then afterwards changing it to something else. 

Specifics are bad for the discussions like this exactly because they are used for this type of goalpost shifting. And, given the conversation so far, asking for specifics has been used primarily to then attack other players as lazy.

The discussion doesn't happen on a shared understanding that OW armor should be a thing to the degree where it's not even a question anymore and just a matter of how exactly it should be implemented. Which is fair. There are actually good arguments against it. But that makes the questions for specifics just a source of drama, derailing the thread. 

Edited April 15, 2022 by Erise.5614

[The Boz.2038]

You are massively derailing the thread, to an order of magnitude more than the goalpost-shifting you complain about.

You are aware of that, right?