Alternative path for PVE Legendary Armor

[Sobx.1758]

19 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

I'd agree with you if I thought raids were the broader content of the game. Raids aren't like dynamic events around which the game centers, or meta events which have been here since launch. They're not even successful enough to continue making. The community itself has basically said no to raids, but yet you want to consider raids part of the broader content of the game. 

They are "broader content of the game", though. Not just raids, but anything more than ow. You play ow as a baseline, anything else you do over/in addition to that is automatically making it a broader content of the game. It's not like people playing raids are somehow spawning in raid boss rooms and stay there from the moment they start playing the game to the very moment they stop playing it, 24/7. The players are playing ow and then more. That's the point and always has been. It's also the reason for why I keep writing that if you want to keep replaying whatever you were already replaying anyways, then you're free to do that, but then don't count on acquiring more optional rewards when you don't play... that's right, broader content that the game offers.

19 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

I'm pretty sure the vast majority of the game would be just as happy if raids weren't here.  That's my point all along.  Anet isn't making PVE more inclusive to people who do it by insisting legendary armor be given in PvE only to raiders. They took the most popular area of the game (PvE) and locked the legendary armor behind the least popular part of that (raids).   I'm not quite sure how that has anything to do with the broader area of the game.

No, they've put additional, optional rewards that don't deliver power creep to the players getting it behind broader content to the game. Again, if you think it's not worth it or you don't want to play that broader content of the game for whatever reason then you're free to make that decision and keep playing with ascended -or even exotic- gear and be perfectly fine. That is also the consistent point I keep saying here. "because I want it!" or "because most players would get it easier so they'd like it!" is not a response to anything I say in this thread, as far as I undestand it.

19 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

And even Mike Obrien said only 10% of the players are PvPers, so two of the three legendary armors are locked behind two of the least popular areas of the game. And I wonder how much of that 10% are PvEer's just trying to get legendary armor.

I might be missing something here, but can you clarify what part of my post are you exactly responding to rigth now?

19 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

[restaurant]

Irrelevant restaurant comparisons are irrelevant. This is not a restaurant. Please talk about the "issue at hand".

19 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Oh I'm currently not working on legendary armor, even though I have 3 pieces, because working on it made me want to stop playing.  Yes I do raid once a week, but I'm not doing it to get legendary armor.

So... You not clearing out what I asked before (the part including "drawing a vague timeline so I can better understand what you're talking about") aside.

You keep complaining about "having to play raids that you don't want to play, if you want to get pve legendary armor" [since that exludes you so hard or sth?], then you say you're not working for legendary (earlier mentioned "I'd love to work on leggy armor..." part of your posts), but when I say something about you not raiding (don't remember the exact quote here, correct me if I'm wrong about anything here), you come back at me with "your assumptions are wrong!" (except as explained in the previous post, what I said there was strictly based on what you write) and now..... you're saying that you ARE playing raids, but... somehow not working on leggy armor?

I'm "a little" confused about what's happening here. Can you stop being so (possibly intentionaly to bait for some "gotcha" moment or something? -but that's just how I see it, please absolutely correct my point of view about it with more specifics) vague and just tell me already how/why you "want to work on leggy, but don't want to raid, but also... you're raiding, but you're not working on a leggy"?

[Sobx.1758]

14 hours ago, Forgotten Legend.9281 said:

i wasn't supporting any narrative with that statement, which anybody could easily interpret. i was simply posting my perception of how people think of those areas as a separate game mode, and how they feel left out of a design decision as a result. i guess their feelings and opinion mean absolutely nothing to you. no wonder why they don't seem to care about your opinions either.

Sorry, but this is not the first post I see from you about trying to claim instance pve is somehow a completely new thing. Not only "PvI" is not a thing and it's a term you're trying to coin by yourself for your own purposes (pretty sure I've already explained that in another thread), but the instanced gameplay like dungeons WAS already available, so there's no need to pretend that it somehow wasn't. You can pretend that you're not supporting any narrative, but for anyone remembering some of your previous posts, it's clear that "drawing a narrative" with that division is exactly what you're trying to do.

 

e: I didn't even remember what thread it was in, but then remembered that "pvi" is indeed a term you're trying to coin exclusively by yourself on this forum for your own purposes (or in other words: to draw a false narrative as a basis for what you want), so... simply writing "pvi" in search bar of this forum shows 6 of your posts and 2 of mine (previous response I just mentioned above and... this one).

Here's your post: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/112051-new-legendary-armors/page/2/?tab=comments#comment-1617473

Here's the response, basically the same as this one: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/112051-new-legendary-armors/page/2/?tab=comments#comment-1617742

Sorry, but you are clearly trying to draw a narrative here to specifically talk about leggy acquisition as well, since that's what the previous thread was also about.

 

15 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Tell this to the people who make a big deal about players who aren't carrying their weight in open world metas. Idk what your take is on that, but people have to pick a lane there (heck, Anet who insists on making overtuned metas at release, has to pick a lane there): either this is a casual game where gear and stat switching doesn't matter and therefore legendary gear is superfluous prestige items, or this is a challenging game where gear and stat switching is vitally important to be the best contributor you can be and therefore the stat swapping feature attached to legendary gear at least, is bordering on essential gameplay feature.

People that "don't carry their weight in open world" don't do it "because they don't have stat-changable leggy gear", not sure why some people try to pretend that this is the issue for anything there? Please explain.

Edited April 16, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Cuks.8241]

53 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Well, it doesn't depend on the player. The worst case is If Anet added an OW alternative to leg armor and EVERY OW player that didn't have Leg Armor didn't care. Then Leg Armor simply continues to not be a carrot for those players to play the game, just like it always wasn't for them. 

It can only get better from that. 

We already know for those players, Leg Armor as a carrot to do content they don't like ... already isn't a big enough carrot. So that shouldn't a concern to anyone. Legendary Armor locked behind content people don't want to do has already been shown to not be a driver to get those people to do that content. 

 

No, no its not about them doing content. Thats irrelevant.

Its an american dream. Edit: probably a bad term. Anyway its better if its unobtainable for most. 

@Gibson.4036 gets it. 

18 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

This reminds me of real life capitalism. Get people dreaming about the whole  house makeover and starting their own cottage business or making money in real estate and they identify with an economic class above theirs even if they’re unlikely to move significantly close to it in their lifetimes.

So leggie armor is the HGTV for the casuals? 😄

 

Edited April 16, 2022 by Cuks.8241

[Obtena.7952]

21 minutes ago, Cuks.8241 said:

No, no its not about them doing content. Thats irrelevant.

Its an american dream. Edit: probably a bad term. Anyway its better if its unobtainable for most. 

@Gibson.4036 gets it. 

 

Again, that 'American Dream' already exists ... and players that don't choose to do it are already NOT doing that content. 

I mean, what is your point here? That simply giving people an OW alternative to Leg Armor does what? It CONTINUES to make the people who don't want to pursue the current ways to get it to not participate in those ways; nothing changes. They already don't participate in obtaining Leg Armor, so adding an OW alternative doesn't change that already lacking participation in those current approaches. 

Edited April 16, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Cuks.8241]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

Again, that 'American Dream' already exists ... and players that don't choose to do it are already NOT doing that content. 

I mean, what is your point here? That simply giving people an OW alternative to Leg Armor does what? CONTINUES to make the people who don't want to pursue the currant ways to get it to not participate in those ways/

It makes legy armor common. Less rare and prestige. Turns shiny carrot for the aristocracy into a pleb turnip. 

Again its not about players playing raid content. Or its just a small part. 

Even threads like this fuel that shiny carrot's shinyness. Its actually a big part of it. People want it and they want it more cause they cant get it. 

And yes it exists. And based on the amount of discussion around it, its doing its job perfectly. 

[Obtena.7952]

9 minutes ago, Cuks.8241 said:

It makes legy armor common. Less rare and prestige. Turns shiny carrot for the aristocracy into a pleb turnip. 

Again its not about players playing raid content. Or its just a small part. 

Even threads like this fuel that shiny carrot's shinyness. Its actually a big part of it. People want it and they want it more cause they cant get it. 

And yes it exists. And based on the amount of discussion around it, its doing its job perfectly. 

Again, we have already hit the bottom; the people that don't do the current content for Leg Armor already considers it not worth doing that content to get that armor, whether they regard the armor as the shiniest carrot or the most rotten turnip ever, regardless of whether it's common or not. None of the people that want it that don't do the current ways CARE about it's commonality. There are MANY more reasons to want this armor other than just wearing the 'cool kids club' badge. That's probably the WORST reason to hold an alternative OW path back. 

The only job that is being done perfectly is that this asset exists that is implemented in a way that benefits almost no one in the game. There is no argument to retain it's 'prestige' because that has nothing to do with what benefits the stakeholders in the game. That's an argument that applies to NFT's. This isn't an NFT.

Edited April 16, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Sobx.1758]

12 hours ago, Ryuk.6840 said:

Shouldn't we try to create more people like them

You don't "create those players" by just handing them gear/rewards. You "create them" by giving them a nudge/reason to play harder content, so they can improve their understanding of the game and subsequentially improve themselves. "More efficient" players don't somehow magically spawn out of nowhere and aren't "suddenly better because they got rewards". Handing out stat change doesn't change anything about them improving.

Even moreso, players willing to swap builds "on the fly" (considering the ones you've listed: "to healer/dps/and any combinations of Alacrity-Quickness") don't do it for themselves specifically, but in order to passively improve the performance of -also; not exclusively- weaker players. If someone can't be bothered with having a coherent build and at least one set of gear (to "pull their weight in ow", which reasonably puts that gear in the "exotic" area), it seems naive to try and use an argument that those players would suddenly "bother improving" more if they were handed rewards anyways.

12 hours ago, Ryuk.6840 said:

Those kind of  people  are more likely going to join the hardcore scene

I don't know what are you even trying to build this claim on? "I'm not bothered to have a coherent build with as much as exotic berk gear, but I'll gladly look up a build and follow a specific rotation to keep up buffs on 4 other people"? I mean... if those players are willing to do it, they can easly already do it now. How does a stat changable equipment somehow specifically stand in their way?

Edited April 16, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Cuks.8241]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

Again, we have already hit the bottom; the people that don't do the current content for Leg Armor already considers it not worth doing that content to get that armor, whether they regard the armor as the shiniest carrot or the most rotten turnip ever. 

The only job that is being done perfectly is that this asset exists that is implemented in a way that benefits almost no one in the game. There is no argument to retain it's 'prestige' because that has nothing to do with what benefits the stakeholders in the game. That's an argument that applies to NFT's. This isn't an NFT.

You're so worked up the direct in game value of this item and what content players play. 

The primary purpose of a legendary armour (epsecially the PVE one) is not  its QOL functions, its not a reward to get players to play raids. Thats just small part of it but not the primary purpose why Anet implemented it.

The primary purpose is to have an item that is highly desired but can be obtained only by few and thus make it an object of desire. And this motivates players to play and hope that someday they will get it, but they wont because that would destroy the item's purpose. The rationale for hope might not be there at all but the hope is still there. They might even hope that Anet adds an alternative path or a second set or whatever and that would be their path to the carrot.

[Obtena.7952]

17 minutes ago, Cuks.8241 said:

You're so worked up the direct in game value of this item and what content players play. 

Well, that's what matters because what people play and how long and what those carrots are result in a business for Anet. I mean, you talk about carrots, now your telling me I'm too focused on what content players like to do ingame? Seems to me those two things are STRONGLY related and directly related to the success of this game as a business. If all items was treated like Leg Armor, this game would have folded a long time ago, because the business model here has nothing to do with keeping people playing specific content to earn something. It's based on selling people things they want with the premise it will make their playing experience more enjoyable. 

Quote

The primary purpose of a legendary armour (epsecially the PVE one) is not  its QOL functions, its not a reward to get players to play raids. Thats just small part of it but not the primary purpose why Anet implemented it.

The primary purpose is to have an item that is highly desired but can be obtained only by few and thus make it an object of desire. And this motivates players to play and hope that someday they will get it, but they wont because that would destroy the item's purpose. The rationale for hope might not be there at all but the hope is still there. They might even hope that Anet adds an alternative path or a second set or whatever and that would be their path to the carrot.

I don't think that's correct (and I have NEVER seen Anet state such a thing either), otherwise the QoL function on Leg Armor wouldn't be as significant as it is. I'm going to bet that QoL function IS the primary reason people want it, even if Anet doesn't regard it as the primary reason they put in  the game.  

If Leg Armor primary function for implementation IS all about prestige, then the people at Anet AT THAT TIME had no idea why people were playing this game or how their business model actually works (because if you want to give people prestige items in THIS business model, you SELL it to them) ... and it shows because it's the same clownshow that implemented a failed raid system and released HoT at a difficulty level that doesn't teach people how to play the game. 

 

Edited April 16, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Cuks.8241]

1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Well, that's what matters. I mean, you talk about carrots, now your telling me I'm too focused on what content players like to do ingame? Seems to me those two things are STRONGLY related. 

I don't think that's correct. If it is, then the people at Anet AT THAT TIME have no idea why people were playing this game ... and it shows because it's the same clownshow that implemented a failed raid system and released HoT at a difficulty level that doesn't teach people how to play the game. 

Well its what the big boys in the mmorpg genre feed to the players and Anet wanted to have some of that addictive cake also. They couldnt go totally against the horizontal concept because that would brake the game and player base. So they made this "best" armour in the game without making it stronger (quite brilliant).

And "best armour" certainly sparks more attention with the players than an infusion or a skin.

The problem is they have no vertical progression. So if they want to keep the legy armour prestige they need to maintain the status quo. They cant really add something better without increasing stats (unless they make super legendary armour that can be all weights and all stats, but kinda useless if you have the legy sets already). But the player base is restless. The carrot and the hope is slowly getting stale. So they are slowly feeding us with more weapons and an amulet for everyone. But I'm not sure they would ever make the big step with armour.

[Obtena.7952]

15 minutes ago, Cuks.8241 said:

Well its what the big boys in the mmorpg genre feed to the players and Anet wanted to have some of that addictive cake also. They couldnt go totally against the horizontal concept because that would brake the game and player base. So they made this "best" armour in the game without making it stronger (quite brilliant).

And "best armour" certainly sparks more attention with the players than an infusion or a skin.

The problem is they have no vertical progression. So if they want to keep the legy armour prestige they need to maintain the status quo. They cant really add something better without increasing stats (unless they make super legendary armour that can be all weights and all stats, but kinda useless if you have the legy sets already). But the player base is restless. The carrot and the hope is slowly getting stale. So they are slowly feeding us with more weapons and an amulet for everyone. But I'm not sure they would ever make the big step with armour.

I think you assume too much about what 'Anet wanted', unless you have some specific content where they actually SAID what they intended with Leg Armor implementation. The business model in this game doesn't benefit from 'addictive cake' like a sub model does. In fact, addictive cake actually discourages it because people spending money on the game to get things do so because they aren't ALSO so equally willing to spend their time for rewards as well. So even if Anet has applied some backwards-thinking rewards in their game ... the effect of doing so is obvious and these are mistakes Anet can't afford to make IMO. 

There is no benefit for Anet, the game or players to have 'prestige' items that lock functional benefits behind content most people don't engage in. That's not debatable; it's actually nonsensical. It's even more nonsensical to claim we need functional prestige items locked behind content people don't want to by spending their time getting it in a game based on a item purchases vs purchasing time access. We see the effects of Anet having done that exact experiment and it's not good. 

Edited April 16, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Cuks.8241]

4 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I think you assume too much about what 'Anet wanted'. The business model in this game doesn't support 'addictive cake' like a sub model does, so even if Anet has applied some backwards rewards in their game ... the effect of doing so is obvious. 

There is no benefit for Anet, the game or players to have 'prestige' items that lock functional benefits behind content most people don't engage in. That's not debatable. We see the effects of Anet having done that exact experiment. 

Yes I assume. But addiction to the game is only good for their business, any business. Players might not pay every month like with sub games but they still want players to stay with the game. Maybe not even playing. Even if they just spam forums its better than forgetting the game.

I dont know what are the obvious effects you are talking about. All I see is players wanting armour, more than its worth it. Players want legendaries without even fully knowing what legendaries do.

I just told you the benefits of such items. Hype, strive for the unobtainable carrot. This thread proves it. Hype, discussion, drama that is good for the game (to some extent but this is far from the line, players wanting items and being worked up about it is the most normal thing in games). Dead game has no discussions.

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Cuks.8241 said:

Yes I assume. But addiction to the game is only good for their business, any business. Players might not pay every month like with sub games but they still want players to stay with the game. Maybe not even playing. Even if they just spam forums its better than forgetting the game.

I dont know what are the obvious effects you are talking about. All I see is players wanting armour, more than its worth it. Players want legendaries without even fully knowing what legendaries do.

I just told you the benefits of such items. Hype, strive for the unobtainable carrot. This thread proves it. Hype, discussion, drama that is good for the game (to some extent but this is far from the line, players wanting items and being worked up about it is the most normal thing in games). Dead game has no discussions.

That's alot of hyperbole. If 'hype' surrounding prestigious and elusive items are valuable to the game, then it's almost assured Anet would be considering that in their business model. If that's the case, then potentially revenue generating obtainable assets giving people more reason to play is MORE valuable than the 'prestigious but out of reach' items.

Items that people won't obtain is NOT giving them a reason to play. It's simple as that. I doubt highly that anyone plays this game because they 'dream' of owning items they will never get (because you don't actually NEED to play to do that). It's weird to me to label that 'dream' as positive hype ... to me that's actually discouraging play. I have no doubt people will continue to play this game because they do see a path they would take to getting items they want, even if they realistically won't. 

Again, the discussion for an alternate path to exist has nothing to do with prestige; there is NO reason to preserve the sanctity of items people label in such a way at the detriment of the game AND there is nothing that prevents the items to maintain it's prestige if an alternate path is implemented; it's inevitable that over time, more people get prestigious gear in EITHER case. It's about what benefits the game, Anet and the players. 

Frankly, what is the REAL problem here isn't access to Leg Armor ... it's the functionality of swapping stats. I doubt there is a  large percent of the people that obtained Leg Armor because of the skin it has (or it's 'prestige'). The functionality is what is desirable. 

Edited April 16, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Erise.5614]

4 hours ago, Vilin.8056 said:

Anyone who can afford a full set of legendary armor, plus other subsequent legendaries to incoporate its full use, is all part of an extremely small subsection of the community.

Agreed.

But the kinds of people you talk about are an extremely small subsection of that already quite small subsection. 

4 hours ago, Vilin.8056 said:

Exactly, I agree with you that most players don't need to have maxed out equipments.

However, being a game where 75~80% of the player base don't play past 2500 ap, adding more legedary gear grind isn't going to do much about player retention, nor is it going to help with the economy (also, as mentioned in the past comment)

Obviously it has an impact on player retention and the economy.

It's the main thing trading guilds and barons use to make gold. Not all of those players you mention will make one. But since the mat drain is so significant and they each don't contribute a lot of mats themselves either it means overall legendary items are probably one of the largest mat and gold sinks in the game. 

And we already know that more than 300% as many people have weapons as have armor. Over 50% more have Ad Infinitum. Armor is among the least common legendary items despite having the most methods of acquisition. So there is lots of room left to expand legendary crafting to people who are actually interested and already grinding towards them. Just not armor. 

4 hours ago, Vilin.8056 said:

I have nothing against fractal, though it would not address complaints from players who solely play OW.

My main point was showing that despite fewer stats, only one infusion slot and a cost equivalent to 3 armor pieces. Despite all of that it has a significantly higher adoption rate. 

Lowering the barrier of entry has an effect. Even if it nudges people into instanced content they may not know and may not like as much. Rewarding serious dedication while keeping it accessible without that serious dedication (albeit much slower) has an impact on how many people try to and do complete it. 

4 hours ago, Vilin.8056 said:

This would require significant overhaul of the game, since many acended armors aquisitions likely use the same code, and an effort figuring out which existing armor inside the player's inventory are crafted or looted. THEN you have the controversy of armors crafted using free acended insignia, or then mystic forged into stat swapping into a dfferent armor. All these development resources invested onto something that isn't deemed essential or needed.

I mean. Again. It's not needed for anyone. It's convenient. Not mandatorily necessary.

There's always options to get things implemented with less effort. Introducing a new legendary can absolutely come with new precursors. Envoy armor already works like this. Distribution is tightly controlled and it will loose its status as precursor when you recraft it into a generic ascended item. 

Though, if it's not as much a concern there's plenty of other ways to keep the price high enough to clearly differentiate it and discourage skipping that step on the progression curve. 

Edited April 16, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Astralporing.1957]

For the "aspirational content" to work, the rewards may be beyond most players reach, but they must at least seem to be lying somewhere just beyond the horizon. And, what is the important part, they must be placed on the same path the player is travelling on. They cannot be close by, but on a completely different road - one the playes know they won't even move on.

59 minutes ago, Cuks.8241 said:

Well its what the big boys in the mmorpg genre feed to the players and Anet wanted to have some of that addictive cake also.

The issue was this was an idea taken straight from a vertical progression raid focused MMORPG model. It does not work in a horizontal progression multiple path one (and one that is primarily casual focused). That type of "aspirational" model in GW2-style game does not "push players onward". It does not keep them playing more. It just makes a lot of them them angry. At delevopers, among other things.

That's not what any developer should want to achieve. There's absolutely no bebefit to be had from it - it can only cause losses.

[Sobx.1758]

2 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Again, that 'American Dream' already exists ... and players that don't choose to do it are already NOT doing that content. 

Some players are choosing not to do it and others are choosing to do it. It's naive to think that the goal here is to somehow get everyone to play everything. In fact, how this game works and what leggy equipment does (no power creep) fully supports the idea of that tier of gear being completely optional and something anyone can make their long term goal or not. As usual: want the reward? Play more of what the game offers. Don't want to? Also perfectly fine, you don't need it to reasonably play the game at absolutely any content and level you want.

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

9 hours ago, Haishao.6851 said:

Insults and personal attacks are one of the big reason people avoid raids and other instanced content  in MMORPG. So obviously, a threads where raiders are present will be filled with insults and personal attacks.

And here we go with the "Raiders are toxic, casuals are saints" claim again, numberrrrr.. I lost count.

[Animism.7530]

17 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Some players are choosing not to do it and others are choosing to do it. It's naive to think that the goal here is to somehow get everyone to play everything. In fact, how this game works and what leggy equipment does (no power creep) fully supports the idea of that tier of gear being completely optional and something anyone can make their long term goal or not. As usual: want the reward? Play more of what the game offers. Don't want to? Also perfectly fine, you don't need it to reasonably play the game at absolutely any content and level you want.
 

Obviously it's better for everyone if legendary armour is more common, certainly through a different avenue and with a different style.
Is your point just that you don't think there would be a greater level of player satisfaction if Legendary armour was more common and "accessible"? 

Edited April 16, 2022 by Animism.7530

[Sobx.1758]

56 minutes ago, Animism.7530 said:

Obviously it's better for everyone if legendary armour is more common, certainly through a different avenue and with a different style.

Nope, it's only better for the players that want to keep replaying whatever they're already playing, without improving the understanding of the game and yet want to passively acquire more rewards, even if they're optional.

What's "better for everyone" is what's "better for the game" -and killing optional long term goals is not it.

Quote

Is your point just that you don't think there would be a greater level of player satisfaction if Legendary armour was more common and "accessible"? 

Which part of my previous post did you draw that specific conclusion from? In fact, I'm honestly not sure how any part of your post directly responds to anything I wrote there, can you clarify?

And while we are at it, can you also respond specifically to what I wrote in the post you've quoted there, instead of dodging it? (unless, as I've said above, I've missed something here and that's somehow responding to it already, while I just can't see it?)

Edited April 16, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[SlayerXX.7138]

41 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

And here we go with the "Raiders are toxic, casuals are saints" claim again, numberrrrr.. I lost count.

 Around 3-5. Which looking at the page number shows great restrain. It is mostly raid are hard memes. Still not very nice of them.

[Vayne.8563]

3 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

They are "broader content of the game", though. Not just raids, but anything more than ow. You play ow as a baseline, anything else you do over/in addition to that is automatically making it a broader content of the game. It's not like people playing raids are somehow spawning in raid boss rooms and stay there from the moment they start playing the game to the very moment they stop playing it, 24/7. The players are playing ow and then more. That's the point and always has been. It's also the reason for why I keep writing that if you want to keep replaying whatever you were already replaying anyways, then you're free to do that, but then don't count on acquiring more optional rewards when you don't play... that's right, broader content that the game offers.

No, they've put additional, optional rewards that don't deliver power creep to the players getting it behind broader content to the game. Again, if you think it's not worth it or you don't want to play that broader content of the game for whatever reason then you're free to make that decision and keep playing with ascended -or even exotic- gear and be perfectly fine. That is also the consistent point I keep saying here. "because I want it!" or "because most players would get it easier so they'd like it!" is not a response to anything I say in this thread, as far as I undestand it.

I might be missing something here, but can you clarify what part of my post are you exactly responding to rigth now?

Irrelevant restaurant comparisons are irrelevant. This is not a restaurant. Please talk about the "issue at hand".

So... You not clearing out what I asked before (the part including "drawing a vague timeline so I can better understand what you're talking about") aside.

You keep complaining about "having to play raids that you don't want to play, if you want to get pve legendary armor" [since that exludes you so hard or sth?], then you say you're not working for legendary (earlier mentioned "I'd love to work on leggy armor..." part of your posts), but when I say something about you not raiding (don't remember the exact quote here, correct me if I'm wrong about anything here), you come back at me with "your assumptions are wrong!" (except as explained in the previous post, what I said there was strictly based on what you write) and now..... you're saying that you ARE playing raids, but... somehow not working on leggy armor?

I'm "a little" confused about what's happening here. Can you stop being so (possibly intentionaly to bait for some "gotcha" moment or something? -but that's just how I see it, please absolutely correct my point of view about it with more specifics) vague and just tell me already how/why you "want to work on leggy, but don't want to raid, but also... you're raiding, but you're not working on a leggy"?

It's pretty easy to understand.  I had been working on legendary through WvW and PvP. WvW took me too long away from the game I wanted to play regularly and running my guild which is a PvE guild.  So I finished off the piece I was working on, and I started PvPing instead which would take a longer time because I was only playing a few games a day.  But even those few games a day became a chore, I wasn't having fun with them, ruined my enjoyment of the rest of the game, so I stopped.

I'm not working on raiding for legendary armor, because I don't really enjoy raiding and I'd have to do it a lot more than I'm doing it.  I'm raiding once a week, learning the raid bosses and most of the time killing them (we got Slothasaur down to 3% twice in a row, came back and beat him the next week), but I didn't find the experience "fun".  I was playing with my wife who wanted to do it, and she preferred that I be there with her with the group we were with than doing it alone.  My goal in raiding is to help my wife get the achievement points she needs, not to farm legendary armor for myself.

See, if I had never raided, I wouldn't know that I don't really enjoy the process.  I don't find it fun.  It doesn't mean I can't do it. I've been saying this for years.  I can raid.  But if I raid enough to get legendary armor, I will burn myself out, like the game less and spend less time playing. I will resent the fact that this is what I have to do to get it. It doesn't matter if you like this, or if it's fair. It matters that I'm not the only one in this situation, and there are probably as many of us (if not more) than there are of you.

 

Adding a hard grindy way to get them in open world PvE/story something along the lines if Season of the Dragon or Vision or Aurora would allow me to work on it doing stuff I enjoy doing more.  I'm not sure why this is such a threat to you.

[SlayerXX.7138]

9 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

It's pretty easy to understand.  I had been working on legendary through WvW and PvP. WvW took me too long away from the game I wanted to play regularly and running my guild which is a PvE guild.  So I finished off the piece I was working on, and I started PvPing instead which would take a longer time because I was only playing a few games a day.  But even those few games a day became a chore, I wasn't having fun with them, ruined my enjoyment of the rest of the game, so I stopped.

I'm not working on raiding for legendary armor, because I don't really enjoy raiding and I'd have to do it a lot more than I'm doing it.  I'm raiding once a week, learning the raid bosses and most of the time killing them (we got Slothasaur down to 3% twice in a row, came back and beat him the next week), but I didn't find the experience "fun".  I was playing with my wife who wanted to do it, and she preferred that I be there with her with the group we were with than doing it alone.  My goal in raiding is to help my wife get the achievement points she needs, not to farm legendary armor for myself.

See, if I had never raided, I wouldn't know that I don't really enjoy the process.  I don't find it fun.  It doesn't mean I can't do it. I've been saying this for years.  I can raid.  But if I raid enough to get legendary armor, I will burn myself out, like the game less and spend less time playing. I will resent the fact that this is what I have to do to get it. It doesn't matter if you like this, or if it's fair. It matters that I'm not the only one in this situation, and there are probably as many of us (if not more) than there are of you.

Long personal reason why hard content is hard.

 

9 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Adding a hard grindy way to get them in open world PvE/story something along the lines if Season of the Dragon or Vision or Aurora would allow me to work on it doing stuff I enjoy doing more.  I'm not sure why this is such a threat to you.

Demanding more free legendarys. Ending with a thinly veiled character attack on the opposing side.

Edited April 16, 2022 by Albi.7250

[Sobx.1758]

26 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

It's pretty easy to understand.  I had been working on legendary through WvW and PvP. WvW took me too long away from the game I wanted to play regularly and running my guild which is a PvE guild.  So I finished off the piece I was working on, and I started PvPing instead which would take a longer time because I was only playing a few games a day.  But even those few games a day became a chore, I wasn't having fun with them, ruined my enjoyment of the rest of the game, so I stopped.

I'm not working on raiding for legendary armor, because I don't really enjoy raiding and I'd have to do it a lot more than I'm doing it.  I'm raiding once a week, learning the raid bosses and most of the time killing them (we got Slothasaur down to 3% twice in a row, came back and beat him the next week), but I didn't find the experience "fun".  I was playing with my wife who wanted to do it, and she preferred that I be there with her with the group we were with than doing it alone.  My goal in raiding is to help my wife get the achievement points she needs, not to farm legendary armor for myself.

See, if I had never raided, I wouldn't know that I don't really enjoy the process.  I don't find it fun.  It doesn't mean I can't do it. I've been saying this for years.  I can raid.  But if I raid enough to get legendary armor, I will burn myself out, like the game less and spend less time playing. I will resent the fact that this is what I have to do to get it. It doesn't matter if you like this, or if it's fair. It matters that I'm not the only one in this situation, and there are probably as many of us (if not more) than there are of you.

Ok, thanks for explanation. You can do it slowly, instead of rushing clears every week. In addition to that, you can spread the pieces between the modes in order to not feel like you're somehow grinding one thing all the time, but instead actually play different modes that include varying gameplay patterns. Or then again -you don't really need to. As already said multiple times, this is an optional reward, you're perfectly fine playing without it, so your choice clearly remains being your choice. I stil don't see the problem with you making any decision you want to make there.

Quote

Adding a hard grindy way to get them in open world PvE/story something along the lines if Season of the Dragon or Vision or Aurora would allow me to work on it doing stuff I enjoy doing more.  I'm not sure why this is such a threat to you.

Nothing I wrote suggests anything about it somehow being "a threat to me", so instead of trying to turn it into something it's not, you'd maybe do better responding to what I keep writing (including in the post you've just quoted) without putting this weird, rather personally charged, spin on it.

 

btw. out of curiosity, can you clarify how many pieces of legendary armor you currently have? Since counting the fact you've specifically played pvp for it, played raids "on and off", including some more recent -and regular- weekly encounters, as well as having 1,2k+ rank in wvw (absolutely correct me if anything I wrote here is somehow untrue and you didn't write all of this in this thread -your responses to me here are specifically what I'm basing all of it on)... It seems you should be pretty far down the road in regards of the leggy armor pieces?

Edited April 16, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Astralporing.1957]

57 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Nope, it's only better for the players that want to keep replaying whatever they're already playing, without improving the understanding of the game and yet want to passively acquire more rewards, even if they're optional.

So, for the huge majority of this game's playerbase, you mean? Yeah, that's definitely terrible.[/sarcasm]

57 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

What's "better for everyone" is what's "better for the game" -and killing optional long term goals is not it.

Except we're not talking about killing longterm goals - we're talking about adding more of them. Shouldn't that be exactly "better for the game"?

[Sobx.1758]

18 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

So, for the huge majority of this game's playerbase, you mean? Yeah, that's definitely terrible.[/sarcasm]

Except we're not talking about killing longterm goals - we're talking about adding more of them. Shouldn't that be exactly "better for the game"?

Hey, instead of trying to nitpick from the response to the ""argument"" I never made (which was the post I was responding to), feel free to grab my broader stance on it (for example the one that poster quoted and ignored as well) and comment accordingly. If you don't want to look for it, I can quote it for you. But if all you're interested in are these weird [/sarcasm] provocations, then good luck with that.

"adding more of them"? Players that don't want to play more of the game's content already have their longterm goal cut into smaller spieces, which means more frequent gratification. Specifically, it's working on multiple ex/asc sets. But you want to remove that, by giving better reward for something they're already doing anyways, without playing more of the game's content. That's an example of something I already wrote in my previous posts and you didn't bother responding to, since you were waiting for some specific cherry pick, just like you did above.

Edited April 16, 2022 by Sobx.1758