Alternative path for PVE Legendary Armor

[Redfeather.6401]

I just learned that if you stat change ascended armour you got from a raid you can no longer acquire legendary armour using it. What a mess this game is.

[Vilin.8056]

1 hour ago, Ryuk.6840 said:

Shouldn't we try to create more people like them , by creating faster ways to get a legendary set  ? Those kind of  people  are more likely going to join the hardcore scene

Then it effectively turns Guild Wars 2 into a grind to win game, where you need to spend over 2k gold to get into hardcore contents, which become a requirement in which legendary armors are never intended for.

That's where exotic gears came into place, they are perfectly sufficient for competitive game modes outside of fractals, and they are dirt cheap.

Edited April 16, 2022 by Vilin.8056

[Labjax.2465]

2 hours ago, Vilin.8056 said:

The stat swapping feature is only essential for players who constantly swap builds on the fly to meet multiple situational requirements - such as from a DPS role into a healer Role, without leaving the game mode - again only happens in a competitive environment.

 

The majority of players who couldn't carry their weight in OW struggles at basic build crafting and basic skill execution. They don't even have one single build template worthy of Strike missions. Which often left them mentally defeated at Endgame contents. Misleading them into grinding for premium gears as an only way out simply adds more salt to the wound rather than being a solution.

Wrong, it also matters for adjusting to balance patches. A point you yourself brought up.

As for saying "only happens in a competitive environment"... um yeah, that's my point. Is open world or is it not a competitive environment? If it's not a competitive environment, then people need to stop caring about what builds other players bring and Anet needs to cool it on the DPS checks and raid mechanics. If it is a competitive environment, then you need to stand by your argument that a feature like stat swapping is also essential there.

No amount of baseless claims about "the majority of players who couldn't carry their weight" change anything about this point.

Edited April 16, 2022 by Labjax.2465

[Hesione.9412]

1 hour ago, Ryuk.6840 said:

Wouldn't OW player benefit from the stat-swapping system , such as respecting to healer/dps/and any combinations of Alacrity-Quickness on the fly , to accommodate content like Soo-Won ?

Or if someone tells them that their gear is all wrong.

[Erise.5614]

10 hours ago, Vilin.8056 said:

Except that it is not a good addition.

There are already several multi hundred post debates about this a year ago that most of the past debate participants don't bother to bring it up again.

In short, GW2 isn't a gearscore game. The QoL benefit of legendary armor are made for players who participates competitive modes that require constantly modifying their entire accounts of gears every balance patch. This also applies to PvP(who build their PvE according to their pvp stats), WvW, and Raid.

In the sense of OW, where the majority of casual players made their income from selling mats based from acended crafting, making the armor available effectively kills their sell value only at the benefit of a minority of rich players who has already accumulated a lot of gold.

Instead of introducing a premium armor that simply infuriate a community of players that only play single build, Anet's precious development resource are better spent elsewhere, if not by narrowing the skill gap.

This is a fair and on topic point. Yes!

I disagree with some of those points but it's a very fair argument!

The QoL benefits exist. Players don't need it to constantly change stats for free. In no mode is that important. It's convenient, supporting player expression and experimentation. No cost is a much more attractive context to try something out than some cost. That's why the competitive modes you reference supposedly need it. But changing is relatively cheap as is, balance patches aren't that frequent and any amount of active play will shower you in more than enough of the relevant resources to stat swap and entire equipment set. What this differentiation does is railroad inexperienced players into building extremely few different sets, to not experiment with equipment and to build gear sets that are useful in as many areas as possible simultaneously. This can be a valid goal for ANet to achieve. Reducing the amount of build mistakes inexperienced players can make. But working towards that goal would require some changes in other areas. Like turning all the exotic story reward gear into celestial. Or offering unnamed celestial gear to trade on the TP, reducing acquisition cost of such gear to a few gold rather than ~150 gold as it is right now. So every player starts out with a base line that's capable of playing any build or playstyle. Not very efficiently but you can't end up with gear mismatches either. And therefore not terribly inefficient either. 

Mat value is a different and valid concern. Though, there's already several acquisition methods that invalidate the crafting path for ascended equipment over time. The first set is quite the effort. But afterwards you open up more opportunities to acquire random drops or other currency bound ones. Which means well implemented OW armor with sufficient mat costs could have the opposite effect on the economy. Increasing mat drain and at least stabilizing mat value throughout the steam player influx. Balancing it in such a way that it is not an alternative to crafting an ascended set. So that it is not appealing to skip that part of the progression curve. But rather extending the progression and adding more and larger material sinks after that point. So the largest part of the player population starts using up more materials overall. 

Also, there are designs that can favor more casual players. Shifting acquisition to sources that take long when grinded deliberately but gaining it on the side being relatively easy. Similar to spirit shards or mystic coins. So barons and those legendary factory communities need to frequently acquire them through TP or directly from inexperienced players or casual players. Shifting gold towards them and making casual players the beneficiaries of the mild inflation games like GW2 should have (as it benefits newer players)

The introduction of OW armor does not inevitably cause a destroyed economy that infuriates the average player ; ) 

Edited April 16, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Labjax.2465]

1 hour ago, The Boz.2038 said:

DISENFRANCHISING!? My, we really are into the bigboy words league now, folks!

"Most people don't like SAB. Delete it, gives us SAB rewards. It's healthier for the game!"

"Most people don't play races. Delete them, give us all the race rewards. It logically makes sense."

Etc. 
This, people, is what I'm talking about when I mention "gimmes". This is a gimme in elemental form. "I don't want to do content X for reward Y. Delete it, so I can get reward Y with content I already do, with no need for me to change my habits or challenge myself."

When has anyone ever asked for raid legendary armor to be deleted? This is such a painfully disingenuous response.

[The Boz.2038]

Just now, Labjax.2465 said:

When has anyone ever asked for raid legendary armor to be deleted? This is such a painfully disingenuous response.

When did I ever say anyone asked for raid legendary armor to be deleted? This is such a painfully disingenuous response.

[Labjax.2465]

1 minute ago, The Boz.2038 said:

When did I ever say anyone asked for raid legendary armor to be deleted? This is such a painfully disingenuous response.

No it's not. Your own words, trying to mock people:

"Most people don't like SAB. Delete it, gives us SAB rewards. It's healthier for the game!"

"Most people don't play races. Delete them, give us all the race rewards. It logically makes sense."

What exactly else would you be implying with such analogies? Am I supposed to believe you chose analogies that don't relate to the topic at hand to try to mock people, or that you were trying to relate it to the topic at hand and misrepresented what people are saying on accident?

[The Boz.2038]

5 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

No it's not. Your own words, trying to mock people:

"Most people don't like SAB. Delete it, gives us SAB rewards. It's healthier for the game!"

"Most people don't play races. Delete them, give us all the race rewards. It logically makes sense."

What exactly else would you be implying with such analogies? Am I supposed to believe you chose analogies that don't relate to the topic at hand to try to mock people, or that you were trying to relate it to the topic at hand and misrepresented what people are saying on accident?

Where does that mention deleting legendary armor?

[Labjax.2465]

1 minute ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Where does that mention deleting legendary armor?

Are you going to answer my question as to what your analogy is supposed to be implying if not what I took it to be implying or just play no u forever?

[The Boz.2038]

2 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Are you going to answer my question as to what your analogy is supposed to be implying if not what I took it to be implying or just play no u forever?

You hilariously misunderstanding my point is not my problem.

[Labjax.2465]

Just now, The Boz.2038 said:

You hilariously misunderstanding my point is not my problem.

You didn't make a coherent point and you are making it your problem by continuing to reply to me, so idk what you think you're doing here. All you did was try to mock what people are asking for in a way that has no relationship with what people are asking for and now you won't even own it or explain how that read of it could possibly be wrong, just doing this weird dance of denial, dragging on something that could have been resolved with a single post explaining where you're coming from. Or simply ignoring me if you really believe it "isn't your problem" to clarify.

[The Boz.2038]

1 minute ago, Labjax.2465 said:

You didn't make a coherent point and you are making it your problem by continuing to reply to me, so idk what you think you're doing here. All you did was try to mock what people are asking for in a way that has no relationship with what people are asking for and now you won't even own it or explain how that read of it could possibly be wrong, just doing this weird dance of denial, dragging on something that could have been resolved with a single post explaining where you're coming from. Or simply ignoring me if you really believe it "isn't your problem" to clarify.

Your questions have been answered in the post that confuses you. That post directly quotes a person that "wouldn't mind raids being gone" so that we "could have legendary armor in OW". Paraphrasing, naturally, inb4 "strawman" or somesuch bigboy terms.

Suggest you reread.

[Vilin.8056]

31 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Wrong, it also matters for adjusting to balance patches. A point you yourself brought up.

As for saying "only happens in a competitive environment"... um yeah, that's my point. Is open world or is it not a competitive environment? If it's not a competitive environment, then people need to stop caring about what builds other players bring and Anet needs to cool it on the DPS checks and raid mechanics. If it is a competitive environment, then you need to stand by your argument that a feature like stat swapping is also essential there.

No amount of baseless claims about "the majority of players who couldn't carry their weight" change anything about this point.

Exactly, which is why Legendary Armors are exclusive in competitive modes. 

[The Boz.2038]

2 minutes ago, Vilin.8056 said:

Exactly, which is why Legendary Armors are exclusive in competitive modes. 

It makes me chuckle, how the "help us against the changing meta, the patches, the various content that needs different roles" gets repeated all the time, but that exotic stat-swap is still dead in the water. But, yeah, discount legendary armor with ascended stats. Aham.

[Ryuk.6840]

11 hours ago, Vilin.8056 said:

Then it effectively turns Guild Wars 2 into a grind to win game, where you need to spend over 2k gold to get into hardcore contents, which become a requirement in which legendary armors are never intended for.

That's where exotic gears came into place, they are perfectly sufficient for competitive game modes outside of fractals, and they are dirt cheap.

People will normally get the exotic set when they start the game , and choose to progress to ascended or legendary stuff , later on .

Otherwise let's remove them from all modes , so people are not forced to grind  them

Edited April 16, 2022 by Ryuk.6840

[Vilin.8056]

2 minutes ago, Ryuk.6840 said:

People will normally get the exotic set when they start the game , and choose to progress to ascended or legendary stuff , later on .

Otherwise let's remove them from all modes , so people are not forced to grind  them

Which is exactly my point, legendary is far from being a necessity to play different builds.

[Ryuk.6840]

10 hours ago, Vilin.8056 said:

Which is exactly my point, legendary is far from being a necessity to play different builds.

Yes , but it still gives the option for those that wish it .

For example being a multi-master in the Open world and Strikes

[Vilin.8056]

1 minute ago, Ryuk.6840 said:

Yes , but it still gives the option for those that wish it .

For example being a multi-master in the Open world and Strikes

Again, achievable with exotic sets.

[Ryuk.6840]

10 hours ago, Vilin.8056 said:

Again, achievable with exotic sets.

Until the bag space runs out.

Shouldn't be the people's choice ? Limited Bagspace vs Huge cost ?

 

[SlayerXX.7138]

1 hour ago, Erise.5614 said:

Players don't need it to constantly change stats for free. In no mode is that important. It's convenient, supporting player expression and experimentation.

They do. And it is important. How would you know what people in challenging game modes need, as you dislike them and a are unwilling to play them.

 

1 hour ago, Erise.5614 said:

But changing is relatively cheap as is, balance patches aren't that frequent and any amount of active play will shower you in more than enough of the relevant resources to stat swap and entire equipment set.

They maybe shower you in rewards. Maybe you are swimming in gold, I and others who play challenging content certainly don't. We play it for the challenge not the rewards. OW player in the threat sitting in jewelries and designer clothes begging for a garage worth of premium tools so they can hang a pictures at the wall every 2 months. If you need a Hammer you get a hammer. If you need a drill and don't have already one, you buy a cheap one(Exotic gear). If you need to drill a lot, you get a good one(Ascended gear).

 

There is a reason not everyone owns hydraulic ramp despite the fact it is quit the QOL feature for changing Oil in a car. It is a little pricy for only changing Oil. A workshop(Legendary armor) is to pricey for casual players and they rather spend there effort onto nicer thing. People only campaigning for Legendary Armor as a useful tool, cause they think they can get it for the price of a hammer.

Edited April 16, 2022 by Albi.7250
Typo

[Erise.5614]

Exotic stat swapping is a bit of a tangent to this thread and extremely difficult to judge.

In theory it could work to give people what they are asking for in this thread.

However, fitting it into the economy would be extremely difficult for this precise reason. If even ascended equipment isn't necessary for the majority of content it might kill both ascended and legendary crafting. And therefore might result in huge amounts of players entirely ignoring the two biggest material sinks in the game, harming fractals in the process (as ascended crafting drops) and potentially harming the 3 modes that currently offer legendary armor. And at the very least negatively impacting the PvE meta as build crafters and third party resources need to work overtime building exotic and ascended builds to keep the overall build quality high.

Though, having exotic, stat swappable armor for prices above legendary armor would also be weird. The communication about OW being explicitly a second class citizens would also not be good PR wise. 

There is such a thing as giving people too much of what they want. Leaving them without goals. 

[The Boz.2038]

8 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

Exotic stat swapping is a bit of a tangent to this thread and extremely difficult to judge.

  Why would it be difficult to judge?

8 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

...negatively impacting the PvE meta as build crafters and third party resources need to work overtime building exotic and ascended builds to keep the overall build quality high.

  Not seeing the negative you seeing here. Could you expand?

8 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

Though, having exotic, stat swappable armor for prices above legendary armor would also be weird. The communication about OW being explicitly a second class citizens would also not be good PR wise. 

What? Huh? Whoever mentioned that at all? 

[Vayne.8563]

3 hours ago, Vilin.8056 said:

Then they wouldn't be strictly an OW player.

The irony is, the majority of players who are willing to do these roles have already obtained their Legendary Armor from either of these modes.

Source?  How do you know what the majority of players have or haven't done?

[Erise.5614]

33 minutes ago, Albi.7250 said:

They do. And it is important. How would you know what people in challenging game modes need, as you dislike them and a are unwilling to play them.

I have played them. For 50-100 hours each. I have been nudged into them, experienced them and decided, in an educated manner, that I do not enjoy them.

33 minutes ago, Albi.7250 said:

They maybe shower you in rewards. Maybe you are swimming in gold, I and others who play challenging content certainly don't. We play it for the challenge not the rewards. 

We are talking about ~5 gold worth of mats (that do drop in all modes) and 10 spirit shards. You get that mount of gold in around an hour of semi competent play in all modes. Quite possibly just drop the necessary items. Spirit shards being the only thing that take longer but are gained consistently. So they are nothing but a time gate. Jade bot salvage also buffed WvW to earn most necessary mats faster passively. 

Remind me, how many meta changing balance patches happened in the year before EoD?

33 minutes ago, Albi.7250 said:

If you need a Hammer you get a hammer. If you need a drill and don't have already one, you buy a cheap one(Exotic gear). If you need to drill a lot, you get a good one(Ascended gear).

You can do the same in all modes.

Only the more challenging ones have massive cost reductions.

Raid = 60% discount on ascended.

WvW & PvP get free stat selectable exotics.

And by simply not selling one map / mode currency you even get ascended for like 3 gold. 
Yes, these modes get far less liquid gold. But account value rewards are not as terrible as it's sometimes made out to be. Worse, yes. But not by the order of magnitude comparing liquid gold per hour suggests. 

33 minutes ago, Albi.7250 said:

People only campaigning for Legendary Armor as a useful tool, cause they think the can get it for the price of hammer.

I literally keep saying the exact opposite. Arguing in terms of improving the economy and wealth distribution. Very much in favor of especially WvW / PvP as more PvE mats will be kept and used up in PvE. Increasing prices and making reward tracks more rewarding. 

Edited April 16, 2022 by Erise.5614