Need more clarity around 60% success rate in DE meta

[The Boz.2038]

10 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

During Soo Won. Tail (never even appears with high enough damage), CC (may also not show up and doesn't block DPS) and significantly reduce the amount and likelihood of bites. Simultaneous killing of mini bosses is also made irrelevant since you can kill all of them from 100-0 within the time frame given once the first one dies.

All of which only works at very high average map DPS. But is possible. 

In the rest of the game plenty of mechanics in every other piece of content. For example, Gorseval walls. 

lol

Some of the mechanic triggers are time-based. Some are health % based. You can "speed through" some phases so that you lower the number of random time-triggered mechanics showing up. You get to ignore specifically none of them.

[Erise.5614]

3 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

lol

Some of the mechanic triggers are time-based. Some are health % based. You can "speed through" some phases so that you lower the number of random time-triggered mechanics showing up. You get to ignore specifically none of them.

That's only a response to bites.

Tail doesn't ever appear at high enough DPS. Not just rarely, it straight up never shows up. CC can be ignored on a high DPS map as the exposed buff is irrelevant to such a map.

And while you do need to split up to kill mini bosses as quickly as possible, the timer is also completely irrelevant on a high DPS map. Just killing them as quickly as possible is more than enough.

[The Boz.2038]

You keep treating "do bigger DPS to speed through fewer mechanics" as "ignore mechanics", and you keep treating ignoring the breakbar, which is an error any way you slice it, as some unique perk of a "high DPS map".

The consistency with which you are wrong in your statements, get corrected, then act as if you weren't is astounding, really.

[Erise.5614]

15 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

You keep treating "do bigger DPS to speed through fewer mechanics" as "ignore mechanics", and you keep treating ignoring the breakbar, which is an error any way you slice it, as some unique perk of a "high DPS map".

The consistency with which you are wrong in your statements, get corrected, then act as if you weren't is astounding, really.

With high DPS, you don't "speed through" tail. It never shows up at all.

Obviously you are intended to do breakbar. But it's not necessary. For example, in Kaineng Blackout or the Junkyard strike it is literally impossible to be successful without CC. In DE it just gives you a DPS boost. Which can be ignored if you don't need it. It won't be in reality because teams with such high DPS will have good breakbar damage too. But it's not important for success and the impact might not be significant at all. Since CC is on a timer as well it's possible to never happen either and the likelihood is much higher for it to show up close to the boss phasing. 

In other words (and what I've been saying): These mechanics are irrelevant due to high DPS. 

Either because they don't show up or because they don't impact the fight to a noticable degree

Edit: I do find it curious though how you keep misinterpreting things. Never acknowledging that mistake and ignoring corrections. That's the second time in the same thread within like 5 comments..

Edited May 18, 2022 by Erise.5614

[The Boz.2038]

24 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

Never acknowledging that mistake and ignoring corrections. That's the second time in the same thread within like 5 comments..

Que? What mistake? What two times?

[Erise.5614]

35 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Que? What mistake? What two times?

You claimed it is possible to reach 5.5k average DPS to Soo Won's HP bar with only auto attacks and soldiers gear.

7 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

If you do all of the DE mechanics right, the DPS check is ~5.5k. Reaching 5.5k is autoattack build with soldier stats including the hilariously huge bonus damage from the meta events and battery-powered pseudoboons.

On most builds you'll hardly hit 5k training golem DPS under those conditions. And will likely not reach 2k target DPS throughout the Soo Won boss battle.

And then you asked 

4 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Sorry, what? What mechanics can you ignore thanks to high DPS?

Claiming

1 hour ago, The Boz.2038 said:

You get to ignore specifically none of them.

When some mechanics never show up at all. Some mechanics that are supposed to help you provide little to no benefit and some mechanics that are supposed to make things harder have no chance to pose an obstacle.

In other words, they can be ignored as they have no impact on success anymore. You may do them without thinking about it or you may do them just because you can. But you don't have to.

There is no need to pay any attention to them. It will not affect your success chances. In other words: You can ignore their existence.

Edited May 18, 2022 by Erise.5614

[The Boz.2038]

I am currently ignoring the chak gerent's donut mechanic by virtue of being at work.

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

2 hours ago, Erise.5614 said:

During Soo Won. Tail (never even appears with high enough damage), CC (may also not show up and doesn't block DPS) and significantly reduce the amount and likelihood of bites. Simultaneous killing of mini bosses is also made irrelevant since you can kill all of them from 100-0 within the time frame given once the first one dies.

All of which only works at very high average map DPS. But is possible. 

In the rest of the game plenty of mechanics in every other piece of content. For example, Gorseval walls. 

Soo-Won's mechanics are random. On a Raid boss you can skip mechanics, because they happen reliably, on Soo-Won it's random. 

Soo-Won's CC gives her a damage reduction when failed, her Tail gives her a massive damage reduction while it's up. If you are 2-3% from phasing her you can ignore them and power through, otherwise you must do it.

Everything is easier with high DPS, that's why people keep saying everywhere that if you can't do the damage do the mechanics. A good example on this is Gorse, good DPS? You can skip gliding twice, if you have really good DPS you can skip gliding three times. If your DPS is not enough for it then you must do the mechanics. 
When people wipe on Gorse due to lower DPS and ignored mechanics they don't go crying that the fight is overtuned, they do the mechanics instead.

1 hour ago, Erise.5614 said:

You claimed it is possible to reach 5.5k average DPS to Soo Won's HP bar with only auto attacks and soldiers gear.

When DPS builds can do 15-20k with auto attacks 5.5k isn't hard when running Soldier's and Dragon's End buffs. Besides, boosted gear is Cele since some time now, which makes it even easier.

1 hour ago, Erise.5614 said:

On most builds you'll hardly hit 5k training golem DPS under those conditions. And will likely not reach 2k target DPS throughout the Soo Won boss battle.

Almost 5k on HFB on a training golem. Here's a bit older Heal Tempest video from Roul.
As I mentioned, anyone who boosts a character now gets Cele stats, not Soldier's, dealing damage while wearing Cele isn't hard.

1 hour ago, Erise.5614 said:

When some mechanics never show up at all. Some mechanics that are supposed to help you provide little to no benefit and some mechanics that are supposed to make things harder have no chance to pose an obstacle.

In other words, they can be ignored as they have no impact on success anymore. You may do them without thinking about it or you may do them just because you can. But you don't have to.

There is no need to pay any attention to them. It will not affect your success chances. In other words: You can ignore their existence.

Which mechanics that are supposed to help provide no help?

Edited May 18, 2022 by IAmNotMatthew.1058

[Forum Moderator.3419]

Hello Everyone,

Just another reminder to keep it civil and avoid attacking each other. 
Regards.

[Erise.5614]

30 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

Soo-Won's mechanics are random. On a Raid boss you can skip mechanics, because they happen reliably, on Soo-Won it's random. 

Soo-Won's CC gives her a damage reduction when failed, her Tail gives her a massive damage reduction while it's up. If you are 2-3% from phasing her you can ignore them and power through, otherwise you must do it.

The attack Soo Won chooses is random. The secondary mechanics are not random. Which is why, for example, you can rely on tail not appearing if your map DPS is high enough. Same with CC. You can rely on it not being the first few moves Soo Won does during a burn phase.

33 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

Everything is easier with high DPS, that's why people keep saying everywhere that if you can't do the damage do the mechanics. A good example on this is Gorse, good DPS? You can skip gliding twice, if you have really good DPS you can skip gliding three times. If your DPS is not enough for it then you must do the mechanics. 
When people wipe on Gorse due to lower DPS and ignored mechanics they don't go crying that the fight is overtuned, they do the mechanics instead.

Exactly right. That's the point I am making and the point Boz responded to.

Not that you must skip mechanics. Not that it's valid to complain when you fail due to ignoring mechanics. 

But that, with high DPS, you get to skip or ignore several mechanics. 

35 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

When DPS builds can do 15-20k with auto attacks 5.5k isn't hard when running Soldier's and Dragon's End buffs. Besides, boosted gear is Cele since some time now, which makes it even easier.

We are still talking target DPS, right?

I just modified my weaver build to soldiers. Couldn't change everything. So there's still some berserker in there. Superior Sigil of Impact and Superior Sigil of Force. Traits ain't bad. Despite running soldiers I still manage 60% crit chance and 200% crit damage. It's probably not the best setup but it's far from the worst build for pure auto attacks. And I barely manage 8k against training golem. Despite running all boons and max vulnerability on the golem.

I see exactly 0 chance for that to turn into the 5.5k target DPS on Soo Won that Boz claimed. 

42 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

Almost 5k on HFB on a training golem. Here's a bit older Heal Tempest video from Roul.
As I mentioned, anyone who boosts a character now gets Cele stats, not Soldier's, dealing damage while wearing Cele isn't hard.

Yet again I would like to remind you that training golem DPS is extremely far away from Soo Won target DPS. 

43 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

Which mechanics that are supposed to help provide no help?

A reminder to please read carefully. I said "little to no help".

Green buff is generally of little help because phases are pushed so quickly anyway. Exposed is between little to no help, again, because phases are pushed so quickly. It may not come up at all or may only happen near the end of a phase. In both cases it does not help. And when it does happen early it only boosts damage a little.

I'll have to record my next scheduled run to do the precise math but I'd guess both combined shorten the fight on a high DPS map by somewhere around 10 - 20 seconds. Which I'd call of little help. 
This is different on low DPS maps. But that's not the topic I'm responding to. 

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

3 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

We are still talking target DPS, right?

I just modified my weaver build to soldiers. Couldn't change everything. So there's still some berserker in there. Superior Sigil of Impact and Superior Sigil of Force. Traits ain't bad. Despite running soldiers I still manage 60% crit chance and 200% crit damage. It's probably not the best setup but it's far from the worst build for pure auto attacks. And I barely manage 8k against training golem. Despite running all boons and max vulnerability on the golem.

I see exactly 0 chance for that to turn into the 5.5k target DPS on Soo Won that Boz claimed. 

Yet again I would like to remind you that training golem DPS is extremely far away from Soo Won target DPS. 

You brought up Golem DPS and I sent you two videos where heal builds hit more than 5.5k on Golem. 
You hit 8k on Weaver - nothing negative btw - running full Soldier's, so, you've proven that despite running Soldier's it is possible to hit the required DPS, since with the Dragon's End buffs that would be above 10k. 😄
If someone is sitting in front of Soo-Won dealing 9-10k damage they are doing their job and are above the required DPS.

If you can do that on a Weaver wearing Soldier's then people with boosted characters can also do similiarly, since boosted characters get Celestial gear now, which makes it even easier to hit such numbers.

[Raizel.8175]

6 hours ago, Gorem.8104 said:

Keep up the good fight Erise, I see most others that want the game to improve and continue to exist have either given up or quit by now it seems. Just the people i've put on ignore left here. 

Gameplay-wise, EoD is an improvement though? There are several people here who want the game to improve - into a game with more involved and active gameplay. Just because you apparently won't like that direction doesn't mean that there aren't any people who want the game to improve.

5 hours ago, Hesione.9412 said:

So, please, no more fast dodging etc.

It's an action combat game. Not using mechanics that require dodging would essentially mean to abandon a part of GW2s core identity. I mean, really... Where are you even playing that your ping is that bad?

4 hours ago, Wielder Of Magic.3950 said:

At moments like this I am very happy that it is not just the hardcore people who are a minority on these forums, but the ultra casuals as well.

The thing is: These people are anything but casual. These people have hundreds if not thousands of posts and are hardcore too - just not in the classic way.

[Erise.5614]

30 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

You hit 8k on Weaver - nothing negative btw - running full Soldier's, so, you've proven that despite running Soldier's it is possible to hit the required DPS, since with the Dragon's End buffs that would be above 10k. 😄

I'd like to point out that this was on full ascended / legendary gear, with some berserkers on a build that's designed around a significant amount of auto attacking. So it's 8k on a fairly optimized trait setup with a better than suggested build under perfect combat conditions. 

I also did showcase and explain where my translation 5k target DPS -> ~15k DPS single target DPS output comes from. There's some assumptions in there, sure. 

But I must have overlooked where you explained your assumption of ~8k single target DPS (under perfect condition) = 5.5k Soo Won target DPS.

 

Edited May 18, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Hesione.9412]

On 5/19/2022 at 3:57 AM, Raizel.8175 said:

It's an action combat game. Not using mechanics that require dodging would essentially mean to abandon a part of GW2s core identity. I mean, really... Where are you even playing that your ping is that bad?

 

New Zealand. Aussies have the same problem. Not sure about places like Singapore. We can't wave away our ping.

[Gorem.8104]

40 minutes ago, Hesione.9412 said:

New Zealand. Aussies have the same problem. Not sure about places like Singapore. We can't wave away our ping.

Yeah, always a fun time playing games from oceanic area's when they don't have any oceanic servers. 
On my screen, I am not in the aoe, but the games like "nope, you actually did get hit"