I hate what DPS meters have done to PVE endgame...

[maddoctor.2738]

@Loosifah.4738 said:If you're wiping for an hour on a boss you need to teach the people the fight better. The DPS meter isn't going to help you in that situation.

No you need to kick those who cause the wipes and get new ones that know the fight better.Another player is not your tutorial, your teacher or your friend. Of course they can be all three if they choose so, but what someone does with their precious time is up to them and you can't force someone to teach mechanics or how to play their builds outside of their will. Plus not everyone is a good teacher.

[Loosifah.4738]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Loosifah.4738 said:If you're wiping for an hour on a boss you need to teach the people the fight better. The DPS meter isn't going to help you in that situation.

No you need to kick those who cause the wipes and get new ones that know the fight better.Another player is not your tutorial, your teacher or your friend. Of course they can be all three if they choose so, but what someone does with their precious time is up to them and you can't force someone to teach mechanics or how to play their builds outside of their will. Plus not everyone is a good teacher.

Kicking them is also an option if you want to take the jerk route or you want someone who's done the fight so many times they know all the mechanics by heart.

My point was the DPS meter is not going to help you in the situation that your party keeps wiping for an hour on a boss that should take 5 minutes. At that point it's a L2P issue.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Loosifah.4738 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Loosifah.4738 said:If you're wiping for an hour on a boss you need to teach the people the fight better. The DPS meter isn't going to help you in that situation.

No you need to kick those who cause the wipes and get new ones that know the fight better.Another player is not your tutorial, your teacher or your friend. Of course they can be all three if they choose so, but what someone does with their precious time is up to them and you can't force someone to teach mechanics or how to play their builds outside of their will. Plus not everyone is a good teacher.

Kicking them is also an option if you want to take the jerk route or you want someone who's done the fight so many times they know all the mechanics by heart.

My point was the DPS meter is not going to help you in the situation that your party keeps wiping for an hour on a boss that should take 5 minutes. At that point it's a L2P issue.

It depends what kind of group was created in the first place. If it was an experienced group and is wiping for an hour it means some of those that joined were dishonest about their experience, their build or both. Then the real "jerks" are those guys and not the one doing the kicking.

Aside from that yes you are right the meter won't help the group get any experience, it's a clear L2P thing

[Feanor.2358]

@Loosifah.4738 said:If you're wiping for an hour on a boss you need to teach the people the fight better. The DPS meter isn't going to help you in that situation.

The dps meter is irrelevant for the situation, that's what I'm saying. It changes nothing for me and it changes nothing for the people causing the issue.

As for teaching, it's my free time. I have no obligations to spend it teaching anybody. And in any case people rarely listen. Speaking from experience.

[Faaris.8013]

@Loosifah.4738 said:

Kicking them is also an option if you want to take the jerk route or you want someone who's done the fight so many times they know all the mechanics by heart.

My point was the DPS meter is not going to help you in the situation that your party keeps wiping for an hour on a boss that should take 5 minutes. At that point it's a L2P issue.

I disagree that it is a jerk move in general. Nobody can expect people in a pick up group to teach you how to play. If that happens, you are lucky, but it's not a reasonable expectation. People usually don't enjoy playing in a small group with strangers, I don't expect them to put special effort into it.

This definition comes from a business dictionary but I think it describes pugs in this game pretty well:

http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/team.html

A group of people with a full set of complementary skills required to complete a task, job, or project. Team members(1) operate with a high degree of interdependence,(2) share authority and responsibility for self-management,(3) are accountable for the collective performance, and(4) work toward a common goal and shared rewards(s).

A team becomes more than just a collection of people when a strong sense of mutual commitment creates synergy, thus generating performance greater than the sum of the performance of its individual members.

In a pug, you count on your dps member to actually deal a lot of damage. If he doesn't and you still get through the encounter, nobody will point it out. If you keep wiping, there might be more issues than the dps, but you cannot see them as easily, so you try to fix the problem you know is there. Sometimes the dps class cannot simply change and double his damage for the next round, maybe because he uses armor that gives little damage. What do you do then? You stay in the group and keep wiping? You depend on him doing his part, and he should be accountable for the collective performance. That means either you do your part in a group or you leave. If you refuse to leave, don't be surprised when you are made to leave. In my book, it's a jerk move to expect people in a team of strangers to teach you how to play.

[Loosifah.4738]

I would assume that if you're still playing with a group of people who have been wiping for an hour on a single encounter that they're not strangers. Therefore you would want to help them learn the encounter as to not continue wiping.

The only time I've been in a raid where we continued trying after an hour of wiping it was a guild raid group on the final boss.

[Abakk.9176]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Abakk.9176 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Makai.3429 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Makai.3429 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Makai.3429 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:But when it comes to PvE, I simply don't get this mentality of turning a game into work.

It's actually fun, not work. It's fun coming up with good builds to deal with specific encounters. It's like solving a puzzle. Why do people solve puzzles I wonder?I really don't get this mentality of some, wanting to change how others play the game, it's none of your business.You don't like that mentality, don't play with those that have that mentality. It's rather simple. Yet what we see here is an attempt to change how others think, an attempt to force your "play just for fun" mentality on others. And then call the others "toxic". What's the problem? Can't find groups that match your idea of fun?

Name calling and put downs is a two-way street between these two groups, as he illustrated. For every toxic elitist there's a l2pgitgud barker out there.

So those groups can simply not play with each other. Problem solved.And I ask again: What's the problem? Can't find groups that match your idea of fun?Is that why you want others to change their idea of fun to match yours?

No. I just want elitists to stop bullying me.

Then don't play with elitists. This was already said multiple times since Page 1And besides, those elitists who "bully" you would bully you even without dps-meters anyway.

I don't even have to play the game to experience it or see it happen to others who aren't pros. It happens all the time in the forums, and will unquestionably happen with PoF content. I don't know why I have to justify asking people to treat each other with kindness.

It's simple,a) don't play with elitists, don't join their experienced/meta groups if you do not have the same mentality as they do, meaning you won't even be affected by dps-metersb) rude persons existed long before dps-meters, meaning it doesn't matter if they exist or not to face rude people.

In both cases this isn't a problem of a meter and won't go away if you take the meter away.

It is indeed simple to say to people to gtfo if they don't fit your personal profile of perfection.

Saying that certain tools should remain despite them beeing misused because there wil always be rude people is saying that you will let bad behavior endure because you personally reap the benefits of said tools.

The 50 million dollar question in this is basically: Will you choose a minor inconvenience as a first step to better the atmosphere in the game OR will you choose for your own personal gain despite you knowing that you will make others suffer.

Because that is what this whole discussion boils down to.

Let me put it down bluntly, because you don't seem to understand the situation.

I understand perfectly, no need to get even more blunt than you've already been so far.

Most of you choose for your own gain, no matter what the cost is to others. That much was already quite clear but it is interesting to see you squirming around to twist it so that its some sort of 'great justice' beeing doled out.

I wonder who you guys think you are kidding whith that pretence.

[Feanor.2358]

@Abakk.9176 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Abakk.9176 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Makai.3429 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Makai.3429 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Makai.3429 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:But when it comes to PvE, I simply don't get this mentality of turning a game into work.

It's actually fun, not work. It's fun coming up with good builds to deal with specific encounters. It's like solving a puzzle. Why do people solve puzzles I wonder?I really don't get this mentality of some, wanting to change how others play the game, it's none of your business.You don't like that mentality, don't play with those that have that mentality. It's rather simple. Yet what we see here is an attempt to change how others think, an attempt to force your "play just for fun" mentality on others. And then call the others "toxic". What's the problem? Can't find groups that match your idea of fun?

Name calling and put downs is a two-way street between these two groups, as he illustrated. For every toxic elitist there's a l2pgitgud barker out there.

So those groups can simply not play with each other. Problem solved.And I ask again: What's the problem? Can't find groups that match your idea of fun?Is that why you want others to change their idea of fun to match yours?

No. I just want elitists to stop bullying me.

Then don't play with elitists. This was already said multiple times since Page 1And besides, those elitists who "bully" you would bully you even without dps-meters anyway.

I don't even have to play the game to experience it or see it happen to others who aren't pros. It happens all the time in the forums, and will unquestionably happen with PoF content. I don't know why I have to justify asking people to treat each other with kindness.

It's simple,a) don't play with elitists, don't join their experienced/meta groups if you do not have the same mentality as they do, meaning you won't even be affected by dps-metersb) rude persons existed long before dps-meters, meaning it doesn't matter if they exist or not to face rude people.

In both cases this isn't a problem of a meter and won't go away if you take the meter away.

It is indeed simple to say to people to gtfo if they don't fit your personal profile of perfection.

Saying that certain tools should remain despite them beeing misused because there wil always be rude people is saying that you will let bad behavior endure because you personally reap the benefits of said tools.

The 50 million dollar question in this is basically: Will you choose a minor inconvenience as a first step to better the atmosphere in the game OR will you choose for your own personal gain despite you knowing that you will make others suffer.

Because that is what this whole discussion boils down to.

Let me put it down bluntly, because you don't seem to understand the situation.

I understand perfectly, no need to get even more blunt than you've already been so far.

Most of you choose for your own gain, no matter what the cost is to others. That much was already quite clear but it is interesting to see you squirming around to twist it so that its some sort of 'great justice' beeing doled out.

I wonder who you guys think you are kidding whith that pretence.

I don't intend to fool anyone. I value my own fun considerably more than the fun of a complete stranger. I'm fairly certain that's true for each and every person in this discussion. Otherwise is wouldn't exist. The only difference is I get your point of view and you don't seem to get mine. Or, again, the discussion wouldn't exist.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Abakk.9176 said:

• never enjoyed long evenings grouped up with like minded people having so much fun that your neighbours could hear you laugh.

Key words in bold. If only everyone was playing with "like minded people" this entire discussion would be moot and void.

[Abakk.9176]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Abakk.9176 said:

• never enjoyed long evenings grouped up with
  like minded people
  having so much fun that your neighbours could hear you laugh.

Key words in bold. If only everyone was playing with "like minded people" this entire discussion would be moot and void.

With 'like minded' i was more referring to people that were all there to experience the game and enjoy eachothers company.

It wasn't so much about people with the same size E-peen and the tools to constantly measure and check and kick out any 'anomalies'.

What if i told you i fully expected someone to come up with that response? :)

[Helbjorne.9368]

@Abakk.9176 said:

@sigur.9453 said:

@Abakk.9176 said:

Easier as in spotting 'the weakest link' give them a mouthfull and kick them. Yeah that is exactly what i am dead against. Better performance is also achieved by advising people and practise runs.

You are quite fast putting me in a corner. (i don´t know if this phrase is a thing in english)Please don´t generalize.Edit: also there are far enough trainings run. Don´t expect a killrun group to first explain you the bossIt gets us in a spot where we can get to discuss and/or get a handle on misuse of addons and limiting verbal abuse and pointless harassment in online games.

Quite the opposite from 'nowhere' i would say.

All i see is opinions and reports, no disscusion.

If someone treats you bad--> leave the group, block him/her, only run with people you now,...

Again: This are valid solutions.

Its all about ways to justify the use of tools/addons.

Why do we play a game that is Multiplayer and RPG? - Because we like stories in the Fantasy setting AND we like to do that with others.

Speak for yourself. I like playing MMOs because of continuous progression and I enjoy killing other players. Sure, the lore is great, but I still skip all cutscenes and dialogue because they aren't helping me progress. PvE is a means to an end, with that end being killing people more efficiently and looking great while doing it.

As for the DPS meter, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, if you don't like it, run with people you know. If you know you have subpar performance with your gear/build, then why are you trying to burden random people and expecting them to blindly carry you? Everyone in a PUG should be carrying their own weight. They're there to progress, not babysit.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Abakk.9176 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Abakk.9176 said:

• never enjoyed long evenings grouped up with
  like minded people
  having so much fun that your neighbours could hear you laugh.

Key words in bold. If only everyone was playing with "like minded people" this entire discussion would be moot and void.

With 'like minded' i was more referring to people that were all there to experience the game and enjoy eachothers company.

It wasn't so much about people with the same size E-kitten and the tools to constantly measure and check and kick out any 'anomalies'.

What if i told you i fully expected someone to come up with that response? :)

Well those people can create a "group for the experience here" or "a group to enjoy each other's company" or "casual run" or "fun run" or whatever else they can come up with. Then the players who prefer a different style make their own group typing things like "Experienced only" or "fast/speed run" or "meta comp only" and everyone is happy. What's your problem with that?

[Fermi.2409]

@Abakk.9176 said:With 'like minded' i was more referring to people that were all there to experience the game and enjoy eachothers company.

It wasn't so much about people with the same size E-kitten and the tools to constantly measure and check and kick out any 'anomalies'.

It's more then possible to have a group of people who are focused on playing well/optimally who are still enjoying each other's company and having a great time. The fact that you keep saying this shows that you're the one ignoring what people are saying.

[Abakk.9176]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Abakk.9176 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Abakk.9176 said:

• never enjoyed long evenings grouped up with
  like minded people
  having so much fun that your neighbours could hear you laugh.

Key words in bold. If only everyone was playing with "like minded people" this entire discussion would be moot and void.

With 'like minded' i was more referring to people that were all there to experience the game and enjoy eachothers company.

It wasn't so much about people with the same size E-kitten and the tools to constantly measure and check and kick out any 'anomalies'.

What if i told you i fully expected someone to come up with that response? :)

Well those people can create a "group for the experience here" or "a group to enjoy each other's company" or "casual run" or "fun run" or whatever else they can come up with. Then the players who prefer a different style make their own group typing things like "Experienced only" or "fast/speed run" or "meta comp only" and everyone is happy. What's your problem with that?

I have no problem with that, never said i did.

I do have a problem with you quoting snippets out of context and run off with them into an off topic side track.

[VaaCrow.3076]

@Abakk.9176 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Abakk.9176 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Abakk.9176 said:

• never enjoyed long evenings grouped up with
  like minded people
  having so much fun that your neighbours could hear you laugh.

Key words in bold. If only everyone was playing with "like minded people" this entire discussion would be moot and void.

With 'like minded' i was more referring to people that were all there to experience the game and enjoy eachothers company.

It wasn't so much about people with the same size E-kitten and the tools to constantly measure and check and kick out any 'anomalies'.

What if i told you i fully expected someone to come up with that response? :)

Well those people can create a "group for the experience here" or "a group to enjoy each other's company" or "casual run" or "fun run" or whatever else they can come up with. Then the players who prefer a different style make their own group typing things like "Experienced only" or "fast/speed run" or "meta comp only" and everyone is happy. What's your problem with that?

I have no problem with that, never said i did.

I do have a problem with you quoting snippets out of context and run off with them into an off topic side track.

Just like you've been quoting out of context throughout this thread, you mean? Hmmm.. Pot, meet kettle.

[Koyomi.1378]

Why would people wanting to play efficiently and with meta gear/builds rotations etc Be doing it at the cost of the casual players? It simply isn't, nothing is limiting the casual ones to make their own lfg or join others like them, all you come across as is entitled Abakk.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Abakk.9176 said:

I have no problem with that, never said i did.

If you have no problem with players choosing their own teams then those who use the meter groups can continue using them and since if you actually took the tiny effort to find groups of like minded people you wouldn't EVER have to deal with meters in the first place. Therefore, no need to remove anything.You say you have no problem, yet all your posts are about you having a problem with it. Decide.

[Abakk.9176]

@Fermi.2409 said:

@Abakk.9176 said:With 'like minded' i was more referring to people that were all there to experience the game and enjoy eachothers company.

It wasn't so much about people with the same size E-kitten and the tools to constantly measure and check and kick out any 'anomalies'.

It's more then possible to have a group of people who are focused on playing well/optimally who are still enjoying each other's company and having a great time. The fact that you keep saying this shows that you're the one ignoring what people are saying.

This thread is about DPS-meters, their influence on how people interact with eachother and what the consequence of allowing them means for the future of this game.

Not about telling people to stop resisting and step aside for what is coming.

[Abakk.9176]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Abakk.9176 said:

I have no problem with that, never said i did.

If you have no problem with players choosing their own teams then those who use the meter groups can continue using them and since if you actually took the tiny effort to find groups of like minded people you wouldn't EVER have to deal with meters in the first place. Therefore, no need to remove anything.You say you have no problem, yet all your posts are about you having a problem with it. Decide.

Decide?

How about you stop going off topic and personal attacks and start thinking about what this thread is about.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Abakk.9176 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Abakk.9176 said:

I have no problem with that, never said i did.

If you have no problem with players choosing their own teams then those who use the meter groups can continue using them and since if you actually took the tiny effort to find groups of like minded people you wouldn't EVER have to deal with meters in the first place. Therefore, no need to remove anything.You say you have no problem, yet all your posts are about you having a problem with it. Decide.

Decide?

How about you stop going off topic and personal attacks and start thinking about what this thread is about.

Because I'm not going off topic. Where is the personal attack? Try reading what I posted and find some actual comments on those, all I see you are ignoring what you can't deal with and nit pick tiny pieces to continue, or not even that. You haven't posted a single argument against dps meters in this thread since it started, we are at page 19 and you have ZERO arguments against them. Only your personal crusade against them, but fortunately that's not how intelligent people like the developers make decisions. They base them on actual arguments, you offered zero, you got a bazillion counter arguments to your crusade but you chose to simply ignore them.IF you respond at least post ONE argument.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Abakk.9176 said:This thread is about DPS-meters, their influence on how people interact with eachother and what the consequence of allowing them means for the future of this game.

And that was answered countless times already but you seem to ignore all of those, or worse, call it "off topic".At this point you are the one going off topic, the topic is not "What Abakk think about dps meters" last I checked. Monologues are not a discussion.

[Abakk.9176]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Abakk.9176 said:This thread is about DPS-meters, their influence on how people interact with eachother and what the consequence of allowing them means for the future of this game.

And that was answered countless times already but you seem to ignore all of those, or worse, call it "off topic".At this point you are the one going off topic, the topic is not "What Abakk think about dps meters" last I checked. Monologues are not a discussion.

I see you found some arguments after all.

So what do you want to talk about;

• Their influence on how people interact with eachother? (see OP among many others in this thread)
• What allowing them means for the future of this game. (even more meters to seperate the 'men' from the 'boys' and save on your precious time)

Take your pick :)

[maddoctor.2738]

@Abakk.9176 said:

• Their influence on how people interact with eachother? (see OP among many others in this thread)
• What allowing them means for the future of this game. (even more meters to seperate the 'men' from the 'boys' and save on your precious time)

Take your pick :)

Those are NOT arguments though, so find some.Nice try though. Now go find arguments for discussion :)

[Feanor.2358]

@Abakk.9176 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:I don't intend to fool anyone. I value my own fun considerably more than the fun of a complete stranger.

Such was quite obvious at a very early stage in this thread.

I'm fairly certain that's true for each and every person in this discussion. Otherwise is wouldn't exist.

Which is proof to me that you:

• never read anything anyone wrote in this thread.
• never understood what is was about if you actually did.
• don't have a clue how an MMORPG was originally intended to be played.
• never enjoyed long evenings grouped up with like minded people having so much fun that your neighbours could hear you laugh.
• never had an evening of succesfull dungeon runs without ever beating a single Boss.

The only difference is I get your point of view and you don't seem to get mine. Or, again, the discussion wouldn't exist.

Yeah that must be it... lol

Honestly, at this point i am finally starting to realise that some people are absolutely clueless when it comes to comprehension of the misery they inflict on others.

All the more reason to get rid of DPS-meters and the likes. There simply isn't a soul around that is able to use them in a responsible way.

I read, but:

• I use common sense instead of taking everything at face value.
• I'm well aware that wishful thinking do not change human behavior
• I differentiate between calm evenings with friends and playing a game with strangers.

As for the misery, my thoughts exactly. If you both knew and cared about the point of view of the others, you wouldn't argue with me. I'm inclined to think you simply don't know, as you keep talking about dps meters, which are completely and utterly irrelevant to the issue.

[Feanor.2358]

@Abakk.9176 said:

• Their influence on how people interact with eachother? (see OP among many others in this thread)

None. Personal perception of influence does not make that influence real. See astrology for a great example of perceived influences with zero scientific data backing it up. It doesn't stop people from believing in it and rationalizing events with that perceived influence. Of course, the events take place for completely different reasons. Just like in the case in question.

@Abakk.9176 said:

• What allowing them means for the future of this game. (even more meters to seperate the 'men' from the 'boys' and save on your precious time)

For the players with off-meta mindset? It means nothing.For the players with meta mindset? It means a chance to improve.