I hate what DPS meters have done to PVE endgame...

[Abakk.9176]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Abakk.9176 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:I don't intend to fool anyone. I value my own fun considerably more than the fun of a complete stranger.

Such was quite obvious at a very early stage in this thread.

I'm fairly certain that's true for each and every person in this discussion. Otherwise is wouldn't exist.

Which is proof to me that you:

• never read anything anyone wrote in this thread.
• never understood what is was about if you actually did.
• don't have a clue how an MMORPG was originally intended to be played.
• never enjoyed long evenings grouped up with like minded people having so much fun that your neighbours could hear you laugh.
• never had an evening of succesfull dungeon runs without ever beating a single Boss.

The only difference is I get your point of view and you don't seem to get mine. Or, again, the discussion wouldn't exist.

Yeah that must be it... lol

Honestly, at this point i am finally starting to realise that some people are absolutely clueless when it comes to comprehension of the misery they inflict on others.

All the more reason to get rid of DPS-meters and the likes. There simply isn't a soul around that is able to use them in a responsible way.

I read, but:

• I use common sense instead of taking everything at face value.
• I'm well aware that wishful thinking do not change human behavior
• I differentiate between calm evenings with friends and playing a game with strangers.

As for the misery, my thoughts exactly. If you both knew and cared about the point of view of the others, you wouldn't argue with me. I'm inclined to think you simply don't know, as you keep talking about dps meters, which are completely and utterly irrelevant to the issue.

Yeah, i suppose if you consider talking about DPS- meters is utterly irrelevant to the issue of DPS-meters in a thread about DPS-meters..... o.O

[maddoctor.2738]

@Abakk.9176 said:Yeah, i suppose if you consider talking about DPS- meters is utterly irrelevant to the issue of DPS-meters in a thread about DPS-meters..... o.O

As more than a few people explained to you, multiple times I might add!, dps-meters are NOT an issue if everyone is playing in groups of like minded individuals. Since when you are playing with players that want a casual run, or a "let's go explore around" run or whatever, you won't even SEE the dps-meters in front of you.So, if you took your time to find groups for YOU, you wouldn't see the DPS-meters in the first place. If you did that, there would be no misery, no suffering, no negative effects of the dps meters at all. Therefore, dps meters are not the issue, since there IS a solution, a very easy solution at that.

[Loosifah.4738]

To be fair; when using the LFG tool all I ever see is meta runs for raids. There's rarely a "Come explore this raid" or "Let's have fun face wiping on this boss"

[maddoctor.2738]

@Loosifah.4738 said:To be fair; when using the LFG tool all I ever see is meta runs for raids. There's rarely a "Come explore this raid" or "Let's have fun face wiping on this boss"

Make one then, problems solved

[STIHL.2489]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:But when it comes to PvE, I simply don't get this mentality of turning a game into work.

It's actually fun, not work. It's fun coming up with good builds to deal with specific encounters. It's like solving a puzzle. Why do people solve puzzles I wonder?

ya know, I have parties at my house where we play puzzle games, an brain teasers, never in my life have I felt the need to call someone names, belittle them, because they were bad at it, or even quiz or question them to see if they were worthwhile to have on my team, and never.. in my entire life have I ever felt the urge to throw someone out of my house if they caused my team to lose.

So.. No.. what you are doing and how you do it, it does not look like fun on any level.

@Feanor.2358 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:Anyone but me laughing their kitten off at anyone who tries to take this game seriously?

I mean, I could understand some level of being serious and hard core about this game during the rise and even the fall of PvP E-Sport, because there was something real to be obtained. Not to mention that PvP is inherently competitive, so, it beings that out in people. I fully get that.

But when it comes to PvE, I simply don't get this mentality of turning a game into work. Maybe there is something these people gain by making a huge deal out of an inconsequential hobby, but, I don't get it, and I never will. Again, not trying to be rude here, but truth be told, I don't want to join your groups, or be in your guilds, or even play with you at all if you're the kind of person that seeks to kitten the fun out of a game and make it into a job, and feels that putting down other people for wanting to enjoy a silly little online game is acceptable. Really, nothing you ever accomplish or any loot you get in this game will make you a better person, how you treat people will.

For those that make it clear they are Kill-Joy/Elitist, thank you, it's been a pleasure not grouping with you, please keep up the good work with the LFM's clearly staying that I won't enjoy my time with you.

I guess you have to experience it to understand it. In the end, it's not turning it into a job, quite the contrary - it's about having fun. The fun of

not

getting players downed all the time, the fun of the team working together and making the challenge seem trivial. It's not that I take the game too seriously, it's that I simply do not want the unnecessary struggle anymore. I've been there, I've played like that. Then I've seen the other side and I liked it better.

I could say the same thing of the "Been there, Done that".. I am sure we have all heard this before, where someone says "I lead 100 person raids into the Plane of Fear, back in the days of EQ, sit down and let your elders speak" and.. ok.. yah I did.. but that is not the point. The point I am trying to make, is after playing EQ for 5 years, after the raids, countless hours, farming rare spawns that took 12 hours to spawn.. what do I have?

I'll tell you what I have.. around 3 people that I still talk about the "Good Old Days" with. The loot, the gear, the gold and all that.. it's nothing but digital vapor. After 5 years of gaming, you know what we still laugh about? You know what we talk about? It was not the easy wins, it was the amazing losses, the little quips that happen in a raid, or the jokes we would tell when someone totally bit it.

I'll tell you what else I have, Today, I have, a desire to never go back to that kind of addiction, its' like being intoxicated on the game with the same result of seeing people act like belligerent drunks while they are playing. It's s a painful wake up call to anyone that actually went though it and realized it.

Here is the truth, you may think you add something to the and culture and what have you, but, truth is, your demographic does not, where the casual players are the ones changing the future of games.

Do you know why you even have instance based dungeons? That's right, casuals. Hardcore players were more then happy with their 12 hour spawns because it meant their gear was special. And they said back then, the same things you all are saying today. Even if you get some minor victiry where your loot remains special in this game because of whining that there needs to challenge or whatever, the next game will be more directed at casuals, because they will leave this one to move to that one.. and you, regardless if you think so or not.. will follow them.

So I'll say this.. for the time being, while I am enjoying GW2, I sometimes do Daily Fractals, I at at T2 because that is where I am comfortable.. to anyone that is just looking to have some fun, and play a game, come join me, if you fall, I'll pick you up, dust you off, try again with you, as long as you will do the same for me, with that put out, lets get together and play a game as games were intended to played.. for the fun.

[Loosifah.4738]

If that were what I was looking for I would(though I don't imagine it would get many hits). I was just pointing out that you don't see things like that in LFG. All you see is "Meta speed run" or "Max DPS or kick"

[Makai.3429]

@Abakk.9176 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Abakk.9176 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Makai.3429 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Makai.3429 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Makai.3429 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:But when it comes to PvE, I simply don't get this mentality of turning a game into work.

It's actually fun, not work. It's fun coming up with good builds to deal with specific encounters. It's like solving a puzzle. Why do people solve puzzles I wonder?I really don't get this mentality of some, wanting to change how others play the game, it's none of your business.You don't like that mentality, don't play with those that have that mentality. It's rather simple. Yet what we see here is an attempt to change how others think, an attempt to force your "play just for fun" mentality on others. And then call the others "toxic". What's the problem? Can't find groups that match your idea of fun?

Name calling and put downs is a two-way street between these two groups, as he illustrated. For every toxic elitist there's a l2pgitgud barker out there.

So those groups can simply not play with each other. Problem solved.And I ask again: What's the problem? Can't find groups that match your idea of fun?Is that why you want others to change their idea of fun to match yours?

No. I just want elitists to stop bullying me.

Then don't play with elitists. This was already said multiple times since Page 1And besides, those elitists who "bully" you would bully you even without dps-meters anyway.

I don't even have to play the game to experience it or see it happen to others who aren't pros. It happens all the time in the forums, and will unquestionably happen with PoF content. I don't know why I have to justify asking people to treat each other with kindness.

It's simple,a) don't play with elitists, don't join their experienced/meta groups if you do not have the same mentality as they do, meaning you won't even be affected by dps-metersb) rude persons existed long before dps-meters, meaning it doesn't matter if they exist or not to face rude people.

In both cases this isn't a problem of a meter and won't go away if you take the meter away.

It is indeed simple to say to people to gtfo if they don't fit your personal profile of perfection.

Saying that certain tools should remain despite them beeing misused because there wil always be rude people is saying that you will let bad behavior endure because you personally reap the benefits of said tools.

The 50 million dollar question in this is basically: Will you choose a minor inconvenience as a first step to better the atmosphere in the game OR will you choose for your own personal gain despite you knowing that you will make others suffer.

Because that is what this whole discussion boils down to.

Let me put it down bluntly, because you don't seem to understand the situation.

I understand perfectly, no need to get even more blunt than you've already been so far.

Most of you choose for your own gain, no matter what the cost is to others. That much was already quite clear but it is interesting to see you squirming around to twist it so that its some sort of 'great justice' beeing doled out.

I wonder who you guys think you are kidding whith that pretence.

@Abakk.9176 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Abakk.9176 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Makai.3429 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Makai.3429 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Makai.3429 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:But when it comes to PvE, I simply don't get this mentality of turning a game into work.

It's actually fun, not work. It's fun coming up with good builds to deal with specific encounters. It's like solving a puzzle. Why do people solve puzzles I wonder?I really don't get this mentality of some, wanting to change how others play the game, it's none of your business.You don't like that mentality, don't play with those that have that mentality. It's rather simple. Yet what we see here is an attempt to change how others think, an attempt to force your "play just for fun" mentality on others. And then call the others "toxic". What's the problem? Can't find groups that match your idea of fun?

Name calling and put downs is a two-way street between these two groups, as he illustrated. For every toxic elitist there's a l2pgitgud barker out there.

So those groups can simply not play with each other. Problem solved.And I ask again: What's the problem? Can't find groups that match your idea of fun?Is that why you want others to change their idea of fun to match yours?

No. I just want elitists to stop bullying me.

Then don't play with elitists. This was already said multiple times since Page 1And besides, those elitists who "bully" you would bully you even without dps-meters anyway.

I don't even have to play the game to experience it or see it happen to others who aren't pros. It happens all the time in the forums, and will unquestionably happen with PoF content. I don't know why I have to justify asking people to treat each other with kindness.

It's simple,a) don't play with elitists, don't join their experienced/meta groups if you do not have the same mentality as they do, meaning you won't even be affected by dps-metersb) rude persons existed long before dps-meters, meaning it doesn't matter if they exist or not to face rude people.

In both cases this isn't a problem of a meter and won't go away if you take the meter away.

It is indeed simple to say to people to gtfo if they don't fit your personal profile of perfection.

Saying that certain tools should remain despite them beeing misused because there wil always be rude people is saying that you will let bad behavior endure because you personally reap the benefits of said tools.

The 50 million dollar question in this is basically: Will you choose a minor inconvenience as a first step to better the atmosphere in the game OR will you choose for your own personal gain despite you knowing that you will make others suffer.

Because that is what this whole discussion boils down to.

Let me put it down bluntly, because you don't seem to understand the situation.

I understand perfectly, no need to get even more blunt than you've already been so far.

Most of you choose for your own gain, no matter what the cost is to others. That much was already quite clear but it is interesting to see you squirming around to twist it so that its some sort of 'great justice' beeing doled out.

I wonder who you guys think you are kidding whith that pretence.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empathy

Sometimes it just doesn't work. Ah, well, I'm going to enjoy spending my time helping others - someone has to have compassion in this community.

[Makai.3429]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:But when it comes to PvE, I simply don't get this mentality of turning a game into work.

It's actually fun, not work. It's fun coming up with good builds to deal with specific encounters. It's like solving a puzzle. Why do people solve puzzles I wonder?

ya know, I have parties at my house where we play puzzle games, an brain teasers, never in my life have I felt the need to call someone names, belittle them, because they were bad at it, or even quiz or question them to see if they were worthwhile to have on my team, and never.. in my entire life have I ever felt the urge to throw someone out of my house if they caused my team to lose.

So.. No.. what you are doing and how you do it, it does not look like fun on any level.

@Feanor.2358 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:Anyone but me laughing their kitten off at anyone who tries to take this game seriously?

I mean, I could understand some level of being serious and hard core about this game during the rise and even the fall of PvP E-Sport, because there was something real to be obtained. Not to mention that PvP is inherently competitive, so, it beings that out in people. I fully get that.

But when it comes to PvE, I simply don't get this mentality of turning a game into work. Maybe there is something these people gain by making a huge deal out of an inconsequential hobby, but, I don't get it, and I never will. Again, not trying to be rude here, but truth be told, I don't want to join your groups, or be in your guilds, or even play with you at all if you're the kind of person that seeks to kitten the fun out of a game and make it into a job, and feels that putting down other people for wanting to enjoy a silly little online game is acceptable. Really, nothing you ever accomplish or any loot you get in this game will make you a better person, how you treat people will.

For those that make it clear they are Kill-Joy/Elitist, thank you, it's been a pleasure not grouping with you, please keep up the good work with the LFM's clearly staying that I won't enjoy my time with you.

I guess you have to experience it to understand it. In the end, it's not turning it into a job, quite the contrary - it's about having fun. The fun of

not

getting players downed all the time, the fun of the team working together and making the challenge seem trivial. It's not that I take the game too seriously, it's that I simply do not want the unnecessary struggle anymore. I've been there, I've played like that. Then I've seen the other side and I liked it better.

I could say the same thing of the "Been there, Done that".. I am sure we have all heard this before, where someone says "I lead 100 person raids into the Plane of Fear, back in the days of EQ, sit down and let your elders speak" and.. ok.. yah I did.. but that is not the point. The point I am trying to make, is after playing EQ for 5 years, after the raids, countless hours, farming rare spawns that took 12 hours to spawn.. what do I have?

I'll tell you what I have.. around 3 people that I still talk about the "Good Old Days" with. The loot, the gear, the gold and all that.. it's nothing but digital vapor. After 5 years of gaming, you know what we still laugh about? You know what we talk about? It was not the easy wins, it was the amazing losses, the little quips that happen in a raid, or the jokes we would tell when someone totally bit it.

I'll tell you what else I have, Today, I have, a desire to never go back to that kind of addiction, its' like being intoxicated on the game with the same result of seeing people act like belligerent drunks while they are playing. It's s a painful wake up call to anyone that actually went though it and realized it.

Here is the truth, you may think you add something to the and culture and what have you, but, truth is, your demographic does not, where the casual players are the ones changing the future of games.

Do you know why you even have instance based dungeons? That's right, casuals. Hardcore players were more then happy with their 12 hour spawns because it meant their gear was special. And they said back then, the same things you all are saying today. Even if you get some minor victiry where your loot remains special in this game because of whining that there needs to challenge or whatever, the next game will be more directed at casuals, because they will leave this one to move to that one.. and you, regardless if you think so or not.. will follow them.

So I'll say this.. for the time being, while I am enjoying GW2, I sometimes do Daily Fractals, I at at T2 because that is where I am comfortable.. to anyone that is just looking to have some fun, and play a game, come join me, if you fall, I'll pick you up, dust you off, try again with you, as long as you will do the same for me, with that put out, lets get together and play a game as games were intended to played.. for the fun.

If you're really offering, I'd be down with that. My reaction window is .00006 seconds shorter than most, but you don't seem the judgmental type, and from your posts in this thread, I think you illustrate the positive aspects of this community. I was an elitist gamer for a long while myself, until I learned how to treat people fairly - for some it comes later than others; and for others, sometimes it just never happens. Mind if I add you?

[maddoctor.2738]

@STIHL.2489 said:So.. No.. what you are doing and how you do it, it does not look like fun on any level.

Nice try, but I didn't say it's fun to kick others, to belittle others or to call them names.I said I find it fun to do runs with efficiency and speed and not waste my time with terrible players.I teach players that I WANT to teach (guild members), I won't spend a single second to teach a total stranger that is dishonest and laughing on my face (that's how he got himself in my "efficient and fast run". You tolerate being lied to your face, you tolerate playing with dishonest people who like to take advantage of you, I find those disgusting.

[Feanor.2358]

@Abakk.9176 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Abakk.9176 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:I don't intend to fool anyone. I value my own fun considerably more than the fun of a complete stranger.

Such was quite obvious at a very early stage in this thread.

I'm fairly certain that's true for each and every person in this discussion. Otherwise is wouldn't exist.

Which is proof to me that you:

• never read anything anyone wrote in this thread.
• never understood what is was about if you actually did.
• don't have a clue how an MMORPG was originally intended to be played.
• never enjoyed long evenings grouped up with like minded people having so much fun that your neighbours could hear you laugh.
• never had an evening of succesfull dungeon runs without ever beating a single Boss.

The only difference is I get your point of view and you don't seem to get mine. Or, again, the discussion wouldn't exist.

Yeah that must be it... lol

Honestly, at this point i am finally starting to realise that some people are absolutely clueless when it comes to comprehension of the misery they inflict on others.

All the more reason to get rid of DPS-meters and the likes. There simply isn't a soul around that is able to use them in a responsible way.

I read, but:

• I use common sense instead of taking everything at face value.
• I'm well aware that wishful thinking do not change human behavior
• I differentiate between calm evenings with friends and playing a game with strangers.

As for the misery, my thoughts exactly. If you both knew and cared about the point of view of the others, you wouldn't argue with me. I'm inclined to think you simply don't know, as you keep talking about dps meters, which are completely and utterly irrelevant to the issue.

Yeah, i suppose if you consider talking about DPS- meters is utterly irrelevant to the issue of DPS-meters in a thread about DPS-meters..... o.O

Nice strawman. DPS meters are irrelevant to the issue discussed despite your (or anyone's) conviction of the contrary. Which was pretty clear from my previous statement.

[Abakk.9176]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Abakk.9176 said:Yeah, i suppose if you consider talking about DPS- meters is utterly irrelevant to the issue of DPS-meters in a thread about DPS-meters..... o.O

As more than a few people explained to you, multiple times I might add!, dps-meters are NOT an issue if everyone is playing in groups of like minded individuals. Since when you are playing with players that want a casual run, or a "let's go explore around" run or whatever, you won't even SEE the dps-meters in front of you.So, if you took your time to find groups for YOU, you wouldn't see the DPS-meters in the first place. If you did that, there would be no misery, no suffering, no negative effects of the dps meters at all. Therefore, dps meters are not the issue, since there IS a solution, a very easy solution at that.

According to people posting in this thread, what you suggest is already dissapearing. At some point every wannabe will demand the highest possible DPS for the lowest instance.... because it saves time.... o.O

It happened before and will happen again. I didn't suck it out of my thumb.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Loosifah.4738 said:If that were what I was looking for I would(though I don't imagine it would get many hits). I was just pointing out that you don't see things like that in LFG. All you see is "Meta speed run" or "Max DPS or kick"

Which means something. Those who run those want an efficient and fast run and not to waste their time.Do you think if they removed the dps-meters those groups would stop to be the vast majority?Or that there won't be kicks anymore when someone who clearly isn't a "meta speed" player joins such a run?

[Makai.3429]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:So.. No.. what you are doing and how you do it, it does not look like fun on any level.

Nice try, but I didn't say it's fun to kick others, to belittle others or to call them names.I said I find it fun to do runs with efficiency and speed and not waste my time with terrible players.I teach players that I WANT to teach (guild members), I won't spend a single second to teach a total stranger that is dishonest and laughing on my face (that's how he got himself in my "efficient and fast run". You tolerate being lied to your face, you tolerate playing with dishonest people who like to take advantage of you, I find those disgusting.

Sounds like he cares more about his fellow players than following numbers on a spreadsheet. He's free to do that if he wishes, just as you are free to exclude people.

[Feanor.2358]

@STIHL.2489 said:I could say the same thing of the "Been there, Done that".. I am sure we have all heard this before, where someone says "I lead 100 person raids into the Plane of Fear, back in the days of EQ, sit down and let your elders speak" and.. ok.. yah I did.. but that is not the point. The point I am trying to make, is after playing EQ for 5 years, after the raids, countless hours, farming rare spawns that took 12 hours to spawn.. what do I have?

I'll tell you what I have.. around 3 people that I still talk about the "Good Old Days" with. The loot, the gear, the gold and all that.. it's nothing but digital vapor.

Of course it is. But you're missing the whole point. The friends and memories made are nice, but they're just the extra. What you had is weeks, or months, or years of fun. That's what games are about. It doesn't matter you get nothing real beside it. So long as you're having fun, it's time well spent. You cannot measure the psychological effects like the stress relief. But they aren't any less real.

Of course, if you're rather getting more stressed, then you should quit, or take it easier. But I would fathom a guess the majority of the "elitist" people are enjoying the process of raiding efficiently. This enjoyment is the real reward, not the digital vapor. By the way, said vapor serves pretty much the same purpose, on another level. Playing with shiny new toys, ephemeral as they are, is also enjoyable.

[Makai.3429]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:I could say the same thing of the "Been there, Done that".. I am sure we have all heard this before, where someone says "I lead 100 person raids into the Plane of Fear, back in the days of EQ, sit down and let your elders speak" and.. ok.. yah I did.. but that is not the point. The point I am trying to make, is after playing EQ for 5 years, after the raids, countless hours, farming rare spawns that took 12 hours to spawn.. what do I have?

I'll tell you what I have.. around 3 people that I still talk about the "Good Old Days" with. The loot, the gear, the gold and all that.. it's nothing but digital vapor.

Of course it is. But you're missing the whole point. The friends and memories made are nice, but they're just the extra. What you had is weeks, or months, or years of fun. That's what games are about. It doesn't matter you get nothing real beside it. So long as you're having fun, it's time well spent. You cannot measure the psychological effects like the stress relief. But they aren't any less real.

Of course, if you're rather getting

more

stressed, then you should quit, or take it easier. But I would fathom a guess the majority of the "elitist" people are enjoying the process of raiding efficiently. This enjoyment is the real reward, not the digital vapor. By the way, said vapor serves pretty much the same purpose, on another level. Playing with shiny new toys, ephemeral as they are, is also enjoyable.

Eh. Your mileage will vary. Some play the game to make friends while others care more about efficiency. Just as you folks have established there are different types of fun, there are also different reasons to play the game. I spent my last two years in GW1 helping other players, which to me was more important than doing Urgoz speedclear #164.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Abakk.9176 said:According to people posting in this thread, what you suggest is already dissapearing. At some point every wannabe will demand the highest possible DPS for the lowest instance.... because it saves time.... o.O

And? What's that has to do with dps-meters? That happens with and without dps-meters, those are irrelevant.What's your alternative? To force players to take bad players with them for the fun of it? Even against their will? Aren't you being selfish here?

Isn't each player's choice to do what they want in the game? After all players should always have the choice to choose who they are playing with.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Makai.3429 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:So.. No.. what you are doing and how you do it, it does not look like fun on any level.

Nice try, but I didn't say it's fun to kick others, to belittle others or to call them names.I said I find it fun to do runs with efficiency and speed and not waste my time with terrible players.I teach players that I WANT to teach (guild members), I won't spend a single second to teach a total stranger that is dishonest and laughing on my face (that's how he got himself in my "efficient and fast run". You tolerate being lied to your face, you tolerate playing with dishonest people who like to take advantage of you, I find those disgusting.

Sounds like he cares more about his fellow players than following numbers on a spreadsheet.

I care about players who care about me. Don't try to generalize, try to understand what is written in what you quote.So you find liars, cheaters, fakers and dishonest people so much fun to play with, we are different in that regard, I don't tolerate those.I prefer to choose to play with nice people, good human beings with at least some kind of dignity and a proper up-bringing by their parents.Those who were taught to be honest, respectful and have the capacity to learn from their mistakes and accept criticism.You seem to not care who you associate with :)

[Feanor.2358]

@Abakk.9176 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Abakk.9176 said:Yeah, i suppose if you consider talking about DPS- meters is utterly irrelevant to the issue of DPS-meters in a thread about DPS-meters..... o.O

As more than a few people explained to you, multiple times I might add!, dps-meters are NOT an issue if everyone is playing in groups of like minded individuals. Since when you are playing with players that want a casual run, or a "let's go explore around" run or whatever, you won't even SEE the dps-meters in front of you.So, if you took your time to find groups for YOU, you wouldn't see the DPS-meters in the first place. If you did that, there would be no misery, no suffering, no negative effects of the dps meters at all. Therefore, dps meters are not the issue, since there IS a solution, a very easy solution at that.

According to people posting in this thread, what you suggest is already dissapearing. At some point every wannabe will demand the highest possible DPS for the lowest instance.... because it saves time.... o.O

Except not. Time is not a factor, risk is. Nobody wants or expects qT-level dps. People want sufficient dps in order to keep risk minimal. And frankly what people really want is experienced teammates. Just doing decent dps and failing mechanics is just another way to fail and is equally annoying.

[Fermi.2409]

Some play the game to make friends while others care more about efficiency.

Yet again you intentionally ignore that it's more then possible to do both at the same time

[Makai.3429]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Makai.3429 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:So.. No.. what you are doing and how you do it, it does not look like fun on any level.

Nice try, but I didn't say it's fun to kick others, to belittle others or to call them names.I said I find it fun to do runs with efficiency and speed and not waste my time with terrible players.I teach players that I WANT to teach (guild members), I won't spend a single second to teach a total stranger that is dishonest and laughing on my face (that's how he got himself in my "efficient and fast run". You tolerate being lied to your face, you tolerate playing with dishonest people who like to take advantage of you, I find those disgusting.

Sounds like he cares more about his fellow players than following numbers on a spreadsheet.

I care about players who care about me. Don't try to generalize, try to understand what is written in what you quote.So you find liars, cheaters, fakers and dishonest people so much fun to play with, we are different in that regard, I don't tolerate those.I prefer to choose to play with nice people, good human beings with at least some kind of dignity and a proper up-bringing by their parents.Those who were taught to be honest, respectful and have the capacity to learn from their mistakes and accept criticism.You seem to not care who you associate with :)

I don't get where the liars and cheaters came into the equation, or who I decide to spend my time with: just saying that some of us value compassion and goodwill (considered virtues taught by good parents) over efficiency, which helps strengthen the community (as I said, I'm trying to counter ableists and elitists in this game through kindness). Bad players aren't all nefarious villains who dream of tying Taimi to the railroad tracks, or who scheme to steal your time - I'm not sure where you drew that comparison.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Makai.3429 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Makai.3429 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:So.. No.. what you are doing and how you do it, it does not look like fun on any level.

Nice try, but I didn't say it's fun to kick others, to belittle others or to call them names.I said I find it fun to do runs with efficiency and speed and not waste my time with terrible players.I teach players that I WANT to teach (guild members), I won't spend a single second to teach a total stranger that is dishonest and laughing on my face (that's how he got himself in my "efficient and fast run". You tolerate being lied to your face, you tolerate playing with dishonest people who like to take advantage of you, I find those disgusting.

Sounds like he cares more about his fellow players than following numbers on a spreadsheet.

I care about players who care about me. Don't try to generalize, try to understand what is written in what you quote.So you find liars, cheaters, fakers and dishonest people so much fun to play with, we are different in that regard, I don't tolerate those.I prefer to choose to play with nice people, good human beings with at least some kind of dignity and a proper up-bringing by their parents.Those who were taught to be honest, respectful and have the capacity to learn from their mistakes and accept criticism.You seem to not care who you associate with :)

I don't get where the liars and cheaters came into the equation, or who I decide to spend my time with: just saying that some of us value compassion and goodwill (considered virtues taught by good parents) over efficiency, which helps strengthen the community (as I said, I'm trying to counter ableists and elitists in this game through kindness). Bad players aren't all nefarious villains who dream of tying Taimi to the railroad tracks, or who scheme to steal your time - I'm not sure where you drew that comparison.

You should read what you quote before you post then, it appears that you hit the quote button without reading what was posted in the part that you quoted.But I guess we got to 20 pages by repeating everything 100 times, otherwise this thread would've died at page 2. I won't repeat it, just re-read what you quoted.

[Feanor.2358]

@Makai.3429 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:I could say the same thing of the "Been there, Done that".. I am sure we have all heard this before, where someone says "I lead 100 person raids into the Plane of Fear, back in the days of EQ, sit down and let your elders speak" and.. ok.. yah I did.. but that is not the point. The point I am trying to make, is after playing EQ for 5 years, after the raids, countless hours, farming rare spawns that took 12 hours to spawn.. what do I have?

I'll tell you what I have.. around 3 people that I still talk about the "Good Old Days" with. The loot, the gear, the gold and all that.. it's nothing but digital vapor.

Of course it is. But you're missing the whole point. The friends and memories made are nice, but they're just the extra. What you had is weeks, or months, or years of fun. That's what games are about. It doesn't matter you get nothing real beside it. So long as you're having fun, it's time well spent. You cannot measure the psychological effects like the stress relief. But they aren't any less real.

Of course, if you're rather getting

more

stressed, then you should quit, or take it easier. But I would fathom a guess the majority of the "elitist" people are enjoying the process of raiding efficiently. This enjoyment is the real reward, not the digital vapor. By the way, said vapor serves pretty much the same purpose, on another level. Playing with shiny new toys, ephemeral as they are, is also enjoyable.

Eh. Your mileage will vary. Some play the game to make friends while others care more about efficiency. Just as you folks have established there are different types of fun, there are also different reasons to play the game. I spent my last two years in GW1 helping other players, which to me was more important than doing Urgoz speedclear #164.

"Friendships and memories = digital vapor." You said it all. I'm done speaking with you, and trying to convince you that compassion is a good thing.

Do you even read?

[Makai.3429]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Makai.3429 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:I could say the same thing of the "Been there, Done that".. I am sure we have all heard this before, where someone says "I lead 100 person raids into the Plane of Fear, back in the days of EQ, sit down and let your elders speak" and.. ok.. yah I did.. but that is not the point. The point I am trying to make, is after playing EQ for 5 years, after the raids, countless hours, farming rare spawns that took 12 hours to spawn.. what do I have?

I'll tell you what I have.. around 3 people that I still talk about the "Good Old Days" with. The loot, the gear, the gold and all that.. it's nothing but digital vapor.

Of course it is. But you're missing the whole point. The friends and memories made are nice, but they're just the extra. What you had is weeks, or months, or years of fun. That's what games are about. It doesn't matter you get nothing real beside it. So long as you're having fun, it's time well spent. You cannot measure the psychological effects like the stress relief. But they aren't any less real.

Of course, if you're rather getting

more

stressed, then you should quit, or take it easier. But I would fathom a guess the majority of the "elitist" people are enjoying the process of raiding efficiently. This enjoyment is the real reward, not the digital vapor. By the way, said vapor serves pretty much the same purpose, on another level. Playing with shiny new toys, ephemeral as they are, is also enjoyable.

Eh. Your mileage will vary. Some play the game to make friends while others care more about efficiency. Just as you folks have established there are different types of fun, there are also different reasons to play the game. I spent my last two years in GW1 helping other players, which to me was more important than doing Urgoz speedclear #164.

"Friendships and memories = digital vapor." You said it all. I'm done speaking with you, and trying to convince you that compassion is a good thing.

Do you even read?

Ah. I see. I shouldn't have made that response right after waking up, so I'm sorry for misquoting you. I'm done with this conversation anyways, since I'm going to focus my energies on people like me who want to build something positive instead of tearing people down. Have fun with PoF.

[Haishao.6851]

@Makai.3429 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Makai.3429 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:I could say the same thing of the "Been there, Done that".. I am sure we have all heard this before, where someone says "I lead 100 person raids into the Plane of Fear, back in the days of EQ, sit down and let your elders speak" and.. ok.. yah I did.. but that is not the point. The point I am trying to make, is after playing EQ for 5 years, after the raids, countless hours, farming rare spawns that took 12 hours to spawn.. what do I have?

I'll tell you what I have.. around 3 people that I still talk about the "Good Old Days" with. The loot, the gear, the gold and all that.. it's nothing but digital vapor.

Of course it is. But you're missing the whole point. The friends and memories made are nice, but they're just the extra. What you had is weeks, or months, or years of fun. That's what games are about. It doesn't matter you get nothing real beside it. So long as you're having fun, it's time well spent. You cannot measure the psychological effects like the stress relief. But they aren't any less real.

Of course, if you're rather getting

more

stressed, then you should quit, or take it easier. But I would fathom a guess the majority of the "elitist" people are enjoying the process of raiding efficiently. This enjoyment is the real reward, not the digital vapor. By the way, said vapor serves pretty much the same purpose, on another level. Playing with shiny new toys, ephemeral as they are, is also enjoyable.

Eh. Your mileage will vary. Some play the game to make friends while others care more about efficiency. Just as you folks have established there are different types of fun, there are also different reasons to play the game. I spent my last two years in GW1 helping other players, which to me was more important than doing Urgoz speedclear #164.

"Friendships and memories = digital vapor." You said it all. I'm done speaking with you, and trying to convince you that compassion is a good thing.

Do you even read?

Ah. I see. I shouldn't have made that response right after waking up, so I'm sorry for misquoting you. I'm done with this conversation anyways, since I'm going to focus my energies on people like me who want to build something positive instead of tearing people down. Have fun with PoF.

Don't break too many keyboards <3

[Makai.3429]

@Haishao.6851 said:

@Makai.3429 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Makai.3429 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:I could say the same thing of the "Been there, Done that".. I am sure we have all heard this before, where someone says "I lead 100 person raids into the Plane of Fear, back in the days of EQ, sit down and let your elders speak" and.. ok.. yah I did.. but that is not the point. The point I am trying to make, is after playing EQ for 5 years, after the raids, countless hours, farming rare spawns that took 12 hours to spawn.. what do I have?

I'll tell you what I have.. around 3 people that I still talk about the "Good Old Days" with. The loot, the gear, the gold and all that.. it's nothing but digital vapor.

Of course it is. But you're missing the whole point. The friends and memories made are nice, but they're just the extra. What you had is weeks, or months, or years of fun. That's what games are about. It doesn't matter you get nothing real beside it. So long as you're having fun, it's time well spent. You cannot measure the psychological effects like the stress relief. But they aren't any less real.

Of course, if you're rather getting

more

stressed, then you should quit, or take it easier. But I would fathom a guess the majority of the "elitist" people are enjoying the process of raiding efficiently. This enjoyment is the real reward, not the digital vapor. By the way, said vapor serves pretty much the same purpose, on another level. Playing with shiny new toys, ephemeral as they are, is also enjoyable.

Eh. Your mileage will vary. Some play the game to make friends while others care more about efficiency. Just as you folks have established there are different types of fun, there are also different reasons to play the game. I spent my last two years in GW1 helping other players, which to me was more important than doing Urgoz speedclear #164.

"Friendships and memories = digital vapor." You said it all. I'm done speaking with you, and trying to convince you that compassion is a good thing.

Do you even read?

Ah. I see. I shouldn't have made that response right after waking up, so I'm sorry for misquoting you. I'm done with this conversation anyways, since I'm going to focus my energies on people like me who want to build something positive instead of tearing people down. Have fun with PoF.

Don't break too many keyboards <3

Teaming up with good people who won't discriminate against me for being handicapped will go a long way! <3