I hate what DPS meters have done to PVE endgame...

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:This discussion will never end. There will be always people trying to make up excuses for their bad behaviors one way or another. Whether those bad behaviors is kicking out people without giving them an opportunity to prove themselves, or sneaking into parties to have them do all the work for them, there will always be people trying that kind of shenanigans and acting as if that was perfectly fine.

I'm actually not against DPS meters, but If only basic numbers can be counted, damage, healing, and that's it, I'd prefer it if there was an internal DPS meter, but that it was completely private, unless there was all sorts of additional statistics. Something one can use to improve, but that can't be used to impose anything on you.

If every game mechanic relevant for success could be properly counted, then I would not mind of party members can see your information, but it would be much more preferable to show it as a 'breakdown' at the end of the fight whenever the boss if defeated or a wipe occurs, instead as an "always on" feature on the screen during the fights.

Arc (currently the only TOS abiding combat Meter) shows almost everything from damage,healing, Boons applied/uptime, resurrections, who failed mechanics, who succeeded mechanics etc. it shows almost every pertinent combat data metric, it is not just dps. And the meter doesn't impose anything on players it just displays the data.

[Wolfheart.7483]

@Makai.3429 said:

@Wolfheart.7483 said:

@lmaogg.7325 said:

@Wolfheart.7483 said:

@lmaogg.7325 said:welcome to the endgame of elitist. Good thing I am a wvw-er. Enjoy your toxicity pve-rs.

Contributes nothing to the conversation., go back to WvW.

Except I did.Keyword : elitist.

Give them a mean to nitpick on other players/casul players. That's how you get this thread to begin with no?So my point? Remove the usage of dps meter. The game worked well for 5 years, no need for fanciful addons unless it's graphical.

This is wrong, though. There was toxicity during every part of the past 5 years. There will

always

be toxicity from some players. The idea that the DPS meter was the arrival of toxicity in the game is absolutely incorrect.

Yes, but raids significantly increased that toxicity and normalized it. Recall the end of S3, EP4 when people asked for advice on Caudecus. Responses were more often than not the tired and condescending "gitgudl2p", people bragging about how they could finish the fight blindfolded, or making cruel assumptions about a player's competency or intelligence. I don't recall ever seeing that kind of widespread, toxic behavior when people asked for advice on the core personal story or S1.

Raids most likely brought in new players, some of those players are the kind that spread toxicity. The more players in the game, the higher percentage of nice and kitteny players there will be. I think it might be more due to population growth. But also, a lot of people seemed to be taken off guard by the difficulty jump when HoT came out so there was a lot of the ridiculous "gitgud" responses going back to that, too, not just raids.

In addition, when people respond like that to someone asking for help or advice, it doesn't have any direct relation to DPS meters. My argument in this thread is that DPS meters don't need to be removed. To be clear, I am not arguing in favor of elitism/toxicity. I don't want to play with those kittens, either. But in no way do I associate their behavior with a simple, objective data tool.

[Fermi.2409]

@Makai.3429 said:

@Wolfheart.7483 said:

@Makai.3429 said:

@ShadowGryphon.6257 said:This is a game, this is supposed to be fun. There is a reason the "holy trinity" was done away with and that same reason applies to DPS meters.If people are using these meters for such idiotic elitists reasons, they need to be disallowed.It's not fun when you treat it like a job.

I agree with you 100 percent, but the new majority dictates fun is only allowed when complete optimization is achieved. There is no room for error. Assimilate or be grandfathered out of high end PvE.

That statement would only be true if you weren't able to

make your own group

. It's not like elitist players have some magical control over who gets to raid and who doesn't.

Yeah, but that only goes so far: there's still a high chance of elitists joining your group and belittling you for making a mistake or two (since dodging 98 out of 100 attacks still equals death in this game), and there's nothing stopping them from using those tools and voting you out. This mentality has also poisoned T4 Fractals - any content beyond press 1 to win or dungeons, really.

Yet many of us manage to do high-end content daily and don't experience any of that nonsense. Just maybe it's not nearly as widespread as you're trying to make it out to be

[Bladestrom.6425]

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:This discussion will never end. There will be always people trying to make up excuses for their bad behaviors one way or another. Whether those bad behaviors is kicking out people without giving them an opportunity to prove themselves, or sneaking into parties to have them do all the work for them, there will always be people trying that kind of shenanigans and acting as if that was perfectly fine.

I'm actually not against DPS meters, but If only basic numbers can be counted, damage, healing, and that's it, I'd prefer it if there was an internal DPS meter, but that it was completely private, unless there was all sorts of additional statistics. Something one can use to improve, but that can't be used to impose anything on you.

If every game mechanic relevant for success could be properly counted, then I would not mind of party members can see your information, but it would be much more preferable to show it as a 'breakdown' at the end of the fight whenever the boss if defeated or a wipe occurs, instead as an "always on" feature on the screen during the fights.

Arc (currently the only TOS abiding combat Meter) shows almost everything from damage,healing, Boons applied/uptime, resurrections, who failed mechanics, who succeeded mechanics etc. it shows almost every pertinent combat data metric, it is not just dps. And the meter doesn't impose anything on players it just displays the data.

the problem is not the metrics, the problem is the behavior, expertise and bias of the observer and the uncontrolled environment. People have happily cleared top end pve content in GW games for many years without the need of dps meters. At its worst DPS meters is a divisive meta game that the game is better without.

[Feanor.2358]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Wolfheart.7483 said:I am fine with DPS meters. I am quite skilled at playing all of my characters and can pull off meta rotations if needed but I

prefer

a slightly more laid back approach. I would never join a raid group looking for meta rotation/DPS if I wasn't feeling up to the task. Rather, I would look for another, more casual, group or start my own.

The issue with banning a DPS meter or anything similar will always be this: It is the player being toxic, not the meter. There will always be a percentage of the player base who want to be toxic and will find a way to do it.

I remember when people would have AP requirements in LFG to do dungeons. They were being elitist based off a number that didn't have any direct relation to skill. But it was one of the only things that could, at the very least, show a level of experience in the game as a whole that could not be faked. People were kicked or not allowed in groups because they didn't have enough AP. It was a pointless measure of how skilled a player was. Should a ban on achievement points have been considered at that time?

If you join a group who posted for specific requirements, then they have every right to kick you if you don't meet those requirements. There will always be he-said/she-said gray area (my DPS went lower because I had to res you, etc.) but that can happen in any circumstance, with or without DPS meters. The finger pointing and details of how/why someone is blamed will simply change form.

DPS meters just become an easy target to blame for the toxicity. The DPS meter is simply a tool.

For those that want DPS meters banned, what exactly do you hope to accomplish? Those toxic elitists welcoming you with open arms? Why would you want to be in their groups anyway?

TL;DRPeople are the toxic element, not the DPS meter. That will not change.

your actually incorrect here, the problem with such tools is that they are opinionated and used by players with bias (I as a tool focus on dps, I as a player want max dps)More importantly it is well understood scientifically that there are a number of behavioral issues that WILL occur unless the player happens to be a behavioral or data scientist and they can control the environment (we ofc cannot) and they do not have a bias (which they have), for example the observer-expectancy effect and ofc confirmation bias.

The same effects can happen, will happen and do happen, with or without dps meters. Because with or without them players still have expectations and bias, based on arbitrary indicators like AP number, LI count and whatnot. It's not like we've not seen it already. If anything, dps meters counter said effects by objectively measuring performance. So no, he's actually correct and you aren't.

[Feanor.2358]

@ShadowGryphon.6257 said:This is a game, this is supposed to be fun. There is a reason the "holy trinity" was done away with and that same reason applies to DPS meters.If people are using these meters for such idiotic elitists reasons, they need to be disallowed.It's not fun when you treat it like a job.

The thing is, fun is subjective. You cannot dictate what others find fun.

[Wolfheart.7483]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:This discussion will never end. There will be always people trying to make up excuses for their bad behaviors one way or another. Whether those bad behaviors is kicking out people without giving them an opportunity to prove themselves, or sneaking into parties to have them do all the work for them, there will always be people trying that kind of shenanigans and acting as if that was perfectly fine.

I'm actually not against DPS meters, but If only basic numbers can be counted, damage, healing, and that's it, I'd prefer it if there was an internal DPS meter, but that it was completely private, unless there was all sorts of additional statistics. Something one can use to improve, but that can't be used to impose anything on you.

If every game mechanic relevant for success could be properly counted, then I would not mind of party members can see your information, but it would be much more preferable to show it as a 'breakdown' at the end of the fight whenever the boss if defeated or a wipe occurs, instead as an "always on" feature on the screen during the fights.

Arc (currently the only TOS abiding combat Meter) shows almost everything from damage,healing, Boons applied/uptime, resurrections, who failed mechanics, who succeeded mechanics etc. it shows almost every pertinent combat data metric, it is not just dps. And the meter doesn't impose anything on players it just displays the data.

the problem is not the metrics, the problem is the behavior, expertise and bias of the observer and the uncontrolled environment. People have happily cleared top end pve content in GW games for many years without the need of dps meters. At its worst DPS meters is a divisive meta game that the game is better without.

Exactly. The problem is

not

the metrics which is what Arc provides. The problem is the behavior. The game being better without it is, again, an opinion.

I use Arc to measure my own stats. I have gotten better at playing my characters because I can dissect my performance better. That makes the game better, and more fun, for me.

[lmaogg.7325]

@CptAurellian.9537 said:

@lmaogg.7325 said:I never deny the existence of toxicity. Every game, even real life has it. But with the dps meter, it's only promoting it worst.Isn't that why we have this thread right now? Saying the addon doesn't make it worst is just outright lies.

Yeah, without dps meters this thread would not exist. However, a stupid thread does not mean meters are bad.

How is it a stupid thread. It's a fact that this is happening.

[maddoctor.2738]

It's funny what a single incident can do to a forum such as this one. The OP even abandoned the thread as they didn't open it for a discussion but rather to blame. And then came the others, the "I know a guy who knows a guy who was kicked so obviously they are a big problem"

Since the actual problem with meters is elitists joining casual runs and then kicking players, I want to know how many times does that happen, and if it's simply overblown and not something that even realistically happen. Is it worth it to remove such a valuable tool from the game because some try to convince the community that what they call a problem is actually bigger than it actually is?

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:This discussion will never end. There will be always people trying to make up excuses for their bad behaviors one way or another. Whether those bad behaviors is kicking out people without giving them an opportunity to prove themselves, or sneaking into parties to have them do all the work for them, there will always be people trying that kind of shenanigans and acting as if that was perfectly fine.

I'm actually not against DPS meters, but If only basic numbers can be counted, damage, healing, and that's it, I'd prefer it if there was an internal DPS meter, but that it was completely private, unless there was all sorts of additional statistics. Something one can use to improve, but that can't be used to impose anything on you.

If every game mechanic relevant for success could be properly counted, then I would not mind of party members can see your information, but it would be much more preferable to show it as a 'breakdown' at the end of the fight whenever the boss if defeated or a wipe occurs, instead as an "always on" feature on the screen during the fights.

Arc (currently the only TOS abiding combat Meter) shows almost everything from damage,healing, Boons applied/uptime, resurrections, who failed mechanics, who succeeded mechanics etc. it shows almost every pertinent combat data metric, it is not just dps. And the meter doesn't impose anything on players it just displays the data.

the problem is not the metrics, the problem is the behavior, expertise and bias of the observer and the uncontrolled environment. People have happily cleared top end pve content in GW games for many years without the need of dps meters. At its worst DPS meters is a divisive meta game that the game is better without.

Oh yeah because players were never kicked/excluded based on class, AP, Mastery Level, LI, Titles, etc before dps Meters.

While dps Meters provide pure objective metrics to base decisions off of, vs non objective reasons that have almost zero bearing on the content.

And one more time every human is biased on almost everything, sorry Dps Meters don't change that but it gives accurate pure objective data to base decisions on instead of almost baseless biased speculation that was running rampant prior to Meters ever being allowed/introduced.

If anything Meters provide a healthier base to endgame content since it shows objectivity on decisions made and if everyone has the Meters in the group they would all see where and how the decisions are made based on pure objective data.

So again show how Meters influence and bias players using purely objective data that encompasses all of combat encounters.

[Makai.3429]

@Fermi.2409 said:

@Makai.3429 said:

@Wolfheart.7483 said:

@Makai.3429 said:

@ShadowGryphon.6257 said:This is a game, this is supposed to be fun. There is a reason the "holy trinity" was done away with and that same reason applies to DPS meters.If people are using these meters for such idiotic elitists reasons, they need to be disallowed.It's not fun when you treat it like a job.

I agree with you 100 percent, but the new majority dictates fun is only allowed when complete optimization is achieved. There is no room for error. Assimilate or be grandfathered out of high end PvE.

That statement would only be true if you weren't able to

make your own group

. It's not like elitist players have some magical control over who gets to raid and who doesn't.

Yeah, but that only goes so far: there's still a high chance of elitists joining your group and belittling you for making a mistake or two (since dodging 98 out of 100 attacks still equals death in this game), and there's nothing stopping them from using those tools and voting you out. This mentality has also poisoned T4 Fractals - any content beyond press 1 to win or dungeons, really.

Yet many of us manage to do high-end content daily and don't experience any of that nonsense. Just maybe it's not nearly as widespread as you're trying to make it out to be

As I said to the other fellow earlier, count yourself fortunate then, and be glad you are allowed to do high end content. This game has a lot of terrible people - some of the worst I've ever seen in my 20 years of playing MMOs.

[Bladestrom.6425]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Wolfheart.7483 said:I am fine with DPS meters. I am quite skilled at playing all of my characters and can pull off meta rotations if needed but I

prefer

a slightly more laid back approach. I would never join a raid group looking for meta rotation/DPS if I wasn't feeling up to the task. Rather, I would look for another, more casual, group or start my own.

The issue with banning a DPS meter or anything similar will always be this: It is the player being toxic, not the meter. There will always be a percentage of the player base who want to be toxic and will find a way to do it.

I remember when people would have AP requirements in LFG to do dungeons. They were being elitist based off a number that didn't have any direct relation to skill. But it was one of the only things that could, at the very least, show a level of experience in the game as a whole that could not be faked. People were kicked or not allowed in groups because they didn't have enough AP. It was a pointless measure of how skilled a player was. Should a ban on achievement points have been considered at that time?

If you join a group who posted for specific requirements, then they have every right to kick you if you don't meet those requirements. There will always be he-said/she-said gray area (my DPS went lower because I had to res you, etc.) but that can happen in any circumstance, with or without DPS meters. The finger pointing and details of how/why someone is blamed will simply change form.

DPS meters just become an easy target to blame for the toxicity. The DPS meter is simply a tool.

For those that want DPS meters banned, what exactly do you hope to accomplish? Those toxic elitists welcoming you with open arms? Why would you want to be in their groups anyway?

TL;DRPeople are the toxic element, not the DPS meter. That will not change.

your actually incorrect here, the problem with such tools is that they are opinionated and used by players with bias (I as a tool focus on dps, I as a player want max dps)More importantly it is well understood scientifically that there are a number of behavioral issues that WILL occur unless the player happens to be a behavioral or data scientist and they can control the environment (we ofc cannot) and they do not have a bias (which they have), for example the observer-expectancy effect and ofc confirmation bias.

The same effects can happen, will happen and do happen, with or without dps meters. Because with or without them players still have expectations and bias, based on arbitrary indicators like AP number, LI count and whatnot. It's not like we've not seen it already. If anything, dps meters counter said effects by objectively measuring performance. So no, he's actually correct and you aren't.

no it will happen MORE if the tools are provided that can be misued, thats the point.

Put it this way:

• At best its a tool used by a small % of the population to improve themselves and others in a good mannered way. A proportion of this % of player base will show bias and not be aware of their biased viewpoint.

• At worst its a tool used by the ignorant or offensive who may or may not be in control of their behaviour and understand their anti social impact. Worse still are the maliscious and rude players deliberately use the tool to bully.

• the majority of people dont give a damn about meters.

I don't think the positives outweigh the negatives for the many, do you?

[Wolfheart.7483]

@Makai.3429 said:

@Fermi.2409 said:

@Makai.3429 said:

@Wolfheart.7483 said:

@Makai.3429 said:

@ShadowGryphon.6257 said:This is a game, this is supposed to be fun. There is a reason the "holy trinity" was done away with and that same reason applies to DPS meters.If people are using these meters for such idiotic elitists reasons, they need to be disallowed.It's not fun when you treat it like a job.

I agree with you 100 percent, but the new majority dictates fun is only allowed when complete optimization is achieved. There is no room for error. Assimilate or be grandfathered out of high end PvE.

That statement would only be true if you weren't able to

make your own group

. It's not like elitist players have some magical control over who gets to raid and who doesn't.

Yeah, but that only goes so far: there's still a high chance of elitists joining your group and belittling you for making a mistake or two (since dodging 98 out of 100 attacks still equals death in this game), and there's nothing stopping them from using those tools and voting you out. This mentality has also poisoned T4 Fractals - any content beyond press 1 to win or dungeons, really.

Yet many of us manage to do high-end content daily and don't experience any of that nonsense. Just maybe it's not nearly as widespread as you're trying to make it out to be

As I said to the other fellow earlier, count yourself fortunate then, and be glad you are allowed to do high end content. This game has a lot of terrible people - some of the worst I've ever seen in my 20 years of playing MMOs.

Then count yourself lucky. I have played several other MMOs and the amount of toxicity I encountered or witnessed there was noticeably higher than GW2. It does exist in every MMO community by the nature of an MMO but personal experience will vary person to person, of course.

[lmaogg.7325]

@Makai.3429 said:

As I said to the other fellow earlier, count yourself fortunate then, and be glad you are allowed to do high end content. This game's pve end game has a lot of terrible people - some of the worst I've ever seen in my 20 years of playing MMOs.

I think you mean this ^. I've met some decent players who are willing to help a fractal scrub like me just for achievements. With 0 benefit and even explaining how stuff works.

[Omar Aschi Popp.7496]

@Abakk.9176 said:

@Pink Porcupine.5461 said:I wonder what would happen if we made random teams of pro-meter and anti-meter people in this thread.

The anti-meter people will come out either winning or losing from the computer and only care for the fun they had together.

The pro-meter players will either come out cursing eachother (as they always do) because due to player error a full second was wasted and lost to eternity OR they are still at the entrance kicking everybody after scanning for optimal build or profession.

This.

After 2 hours of waiting for group together in vale and wipe in 6 min everyone ragequit and cursed some necro.

I waited 2 hours for you losers just so you cry like a bitch in the first 6 min of raid and rage quit?

Fuck You!

Never did raids again.

NeverAgain

Ever

[Makai.3429]

@lmaogg.7325 said:

@Makai.3429 said:

As I said to the other fellow earlier, count yourself fortunate then, and be glad you are allowed to do high end content. This game's pve end game has a lot of terrible people - some of the worst I've ever seen in my 20 years of playing MMOs.

I think you mean this ^. I've met some decent players who are willing to help a fractal scrub like me just for achievements. With 0 benefit and even explaining how stuff works.

I often get kicked from groups because I'm disabled and can't match the sub-millisecond reaction times needed for post-HoT/raid/elitist group content; as a courtesy, I tell other players in advance, which often leads to an immediate boot. I've tried finding groups and various guilds, but nothing seems to work. I wish I could quit this game since this behavior is damaging my emotional health (last night I broke my keyboard because I went down three times in T4 Snowblind and was kicked soon after), but I don't have it in me to give up, and I feel bound to it.

[Wolfheart.7483]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Wolfheart.7483 said:I am fine with DPS meters. I am quite skilled at playing all of my characters and can pull off meta rotations if needed but I

prefer

a slightly more laid back approach. I would never join a raid group looking for meta rotation/DPS if I wasn't feeling up to the task. Rather, I would look for another, more casual, group or start my own.

The issue with banning a DPS meter or anything similar will always be this: It is the player being toxic, not the meter. There will always be a percentage of the player base who want to be toxic and will find a way to do it.

I remember when people would have AP requirements in LFG to do dungeons. They were being elitist based off a number that didn't have any direct relation to skill. But it was one of the only things that could, at the very least, show a level of experience in the game as a whole that could not be faked. People were kicked or not allowed in groups because they didn't have enough AP. It was a pointless measure of how skilled a player was. Should a ban on achievement points have been considered at that time?

If you join a group who posted for specific requirements, then they have every right to kick you if you don't meet those requirements. There will always be he-said/she-said gray area (my DPS went lower because I had to res you, etc.) but that can happen in any circumstance, with or without DPS meters. The finger pointing and details of how/why someone is blamed will simply change form.

DPS meters just become an easy target to blame for the toxicity. The DPS meter is simply a tool.

For those that want DPS meters banned, what exactly do you hope to accomplish? Those toxic elitists welcoming you with open arms? Why would you want to be in their groups anyway?

TL;DRPeople are the toxic element, not the DPS meter. That will not change.

your actually incorrect here, the problem with such tools is that they are opinionated and used by players with bias (I as a tool focus on dps, I as a player want max dps)More importantly it is well understood scientifically that there are a number of behavioral issues that WILL occur unless the player happens to be a behavioral or data scientist and they can control the environment (we ofc cannot) and they do not have a bias (which they have), for example the observer-expectancy effect and ofc confirmation bias.

The same effects can happen, will happen and do happen, with or without dps meters. Because with or without them players still have expectations and bias, based on arbitrary indicators like AP number, LI count and whatnot. It's not like we've not seen it already. If anything, dps meters counter said effects by objectively measuring performance. So no, he's actually correct and you aren't.

no it will happen MORE if the tools are provided that can be misued, thats the point.

Put it this way:

• At best its a tool used by a small % of the population to improve themselves and others in a good mannered way. A proportion of this % of player base will show bias and not be aware of their biased viewpoint.

• At worst its a tool used by the ignorant or offensive who may or may not be in control of their behaviour and understand their anti social impact. Worse still are the maliscious and rude players deliberately use the tool to bully.

• the majority of people dont give a kitten about meters.

I don't think the positives outweigh the negatives for the many, do you?

If the majority don't care about DPS meters, as you claim, then neither the positives nor the negatives outweigh the other for the many if they are indifferent to it.The worst behavior, as you described it, would be exhibited by the same players but in a different way, using a different tool/criteria.

[Omar Aschi Popp.7496]

For the record I am 100% ok with dps meters and I'm a casual scrub.

Here's the thing... dps meters are not "toxic"Some players who use them are.

Take away dps meters and what are you left with? Hm?

What?

Oh yeah! that SAME player still being a douche because GUESS WHAT he was an asshole BEDORE DPS METERS .

[maddoctor.2738]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:Put it this way:

• At best its a tool used by a small % of the population to improve themselves and others in a good mannered way. A proportion of this % of player base will show bias and not be aware of their biased viewpoint.

• At worst its a tool used by the ignorant or offensive who may or may not be in control of their behaviour and understand their anti social impact. Worse still are the maliscious and rude players deliberately use the tool to bully.

• the majority of people dont give a kitten about meters.

I don't think the positives outweigh the negatives for the many, do you?

Those who use the tool to bully or are rude towards others can be reported and be dealt with.Those who use the tool to root out players who shouldn't be in their group in the first place, I don't think they are doing anything wrong. The fault is on the one that joins, not the one that kicks, in that case. Basic reading comprehension, and honesty of course. Basic things required when communicating with others.Of course there will be those who -think- they are good, but in reality they are not. Those will be the most vocal complainers. Maybe it will be good for them and they will finally realize they aren't as amazing as they think they are and go train some more. Maybe they won't and will resort in forums posts.Obviously the majority who doesn't care is irrelevant.

I don't think the negatives outweigh the positives

[Feanor.2358]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Wolfheart.7483 said:I am fine with DPS meters. I am quite skilled at playing all of my characters and can pull off meta rotations if needed but I

prefer

a slightly more laid back approach. I would never join a raid group looking for meta rotation/DPS if I wasn't feeling up to the task. Rather, I would look for another, more casual, group or start my own.

The issue with banning a DPS meter or anything similar will always be this: It is the player being toxic, not the meter. There will always be a percentage of the player base who want to be toxic and will find a way to do it.

I remember when people would have AP requirements in LFG to do dungeons. They were being elitist based off a number that didn't have any direct relation to skill. But it was one of the only things that could, at the very least, show a level of experience in the game as a whole that could not be faked. People were kicked or not allowed in groups because they didn't have enough AP. It was a pointless measure of how skilled a player was. Should a ban on achievement points have been considered at that time?

If you join a group who posted for specific requirements, then they have every right to kick you if you don't meet those requirements. There will always be he-said/she-said gray area (my DPS went lower because I had to res you, etc.) but that can happen in any circumstance, with or without DPS meters. The finger pointing and details of how/why someone is blamed will simply change form.

DPS meters just become an easy target to blame for the toxicity. The DPS meter is simply a tool.

For those that want DPS meters banned, what exactly do you hope to accomplish? Those toxic elitists welcoming you with open arms? Why would you want to be in their groups anyway?

TL;DRPeople are the toxic element, not the DPS meter. That will not change.

your actually incorrect here, the problem with such tools is that they are opinionated and used by players with bias (I as a tool focus on dps, I as a player want max dps)More importantly it is well understood scientifically that there are a number of behavioral issues that WILL occur unless the player happens to be a behavioral or data scientist and they can control the environment (we ofc cannot) and they do not have a bias (which they have), for example the observer-expectancy effect and ofc confirmation bias.

The same effects can happen, will happen and do happen, with or without dps meters. Because with or without them players still have expectations and bias, based on arbitrary indicators like AP number, LI count and whatnot. It's not like we've not seen it already. If anything, dps meters counter said effects by objectively measuring performance. So no, he's actually correct and you aren't.

no it will happen MORE if the tools are provided that can be misued, thats the point.

Put it this way:

• At best its a tool used by a small % of the population to improve themselves and others in a good mannered way. A proportion of this % of player base will show bias and not be aware of their biased viewpoint.

• At worst its a tool used by the ignorant or offensive who may or may not be in control of their behaviour and understand their anti social impact. Worse still are the maliscious and rude players deliberately use the tool to bully.

• the majority of people dont give a kitten about meters.

I don't think the positives outweigh the negatives for the many, do you?

It would only happen more if dps meters somehow helped you create a (incorrect) bias. That's not true, we have historical evidence supporting my claim. The dps reading is not any different and can be misused in exactly the same way you can misuse AP number, mastery level and titles. These are all freely visible to everyone by default. So you're wrong here.

And to answer your question - of course I think so. Let me give you a fresh example from today's pug fractals. A player, who did alright throughout the run whispered me after the run because he got impressed by my dps on Aquatic (which was something like twice his own). It's not that I'm that good, it's just that I ran Fresh Air and I assume he didn't. We chatted for a bit, I was happy to give some tips. Horrible toxic elitism, right? Mind you, I've been on the other side in a similar situation, my dps getting thoroughly and consistently thrashed by a better player who didn't say a word of blame or mockery and I'm sure would have given tips had I asked any.

[Bladestrom.6425]

@Wolfheart.7483 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Wolfheart.7483 said:I am fine with DPS meters. I am quite skilled at playing all of my characters and can pull off meta rotations if needed but I

prefer

a slightly more laid back approach. I would never join a raid group looking for meta rotation/DPS if I wasn't feeling up to the task. Rather, I would look for another, more casual, group or start my own.

The issue with banning a DPS meter or anything similar will always be this: It is the player being toxic, not the meter. There will always be a percentage of the player base who want to be toxic and will find a way to do it.

I remember when people would have AP requirements in LFG to do dungeons. They were being elitist based off a number that didn't have any direct relation to skill. But it was one of the only things that could, at the very least, show a level of experience in the game as a whole that could not be faked. People were kicked or not allowed in groups because they didn't have enough AP. It was a pointless measure of how skilled a player was. Should a ban on achievement points have been considered at that time?

If you join a group who posted for specific requirements, then they have every right to kick you if you don't meet those requirements. There will always be he-said/she-said gray area (my DPS went lower because I had to res you, etc.) but that can happen in any circumstance, with or without DPS meters. The finger pointing and details of how/why someone is blamed will simply change form.

DPS meters just become an easy target to blame for the toxicity. The DPS meter is simply a tool.

For those that want DPS meters banned, what exactly do you hope to accomplish? Those toxic elitists welcoming you with open arms? Why would you want to be in their groups anyway?

TL;DRPeople are the toxic element, not the DPS meter. That will not change.

your actually incorrect here, the problem with such tools is that they are opinionated and used by players with bias (I as a tool focus on dps, I as a player want max dps)More importantly it is well understood scientifically that there are a number of behavioral issues that WILL occur unless the player happens to be a behavioral or data scientist and they can control the environment (we ofc cannot) and they do not have a bias (which they have), for example the observer-expectancy effect and ofc confirmation bias.

The same effects can happen, will happen and do happen, with or without dps meters. Because with or without them players still have expectations and bias, based on arbitrary indicators like AP number, LI count and whatnot. It's not like we've not seen it already. If anything, dps meters counter said effects by objectively measuring performance. So no, he's actually correct and you aren't.

no it will happen MORE if the tools are provided that can be misued, thats the point.

Put it this way:

• At best its a tool used by a small % of the population to improve themselves and others in a good mannered way. A proportion of this % of player base will show bias and not be aware of their biased viewpoint.

• At worst its a tool used by the ignorant or offensive who may or may not be in control of their behaviour and understand their anti social impact. Worse still are the maliscious and rude players deliberately use the tool to bully.

• the majority of people dont give a kitten about meters.

I don't think the positives outweigh the negatives for the many, do you?

If the majority don't care about DPS meters, as you claim, then neither the positives nor the negatives outweigh the other for the

many

if they are indifferent to it.The worst behavior, as you described it, would be exhibited by the same players but in a different way, using a different tool/criteria.

maybe i should clarify to avoid the spin, the majority don't care about using meters, obviously they and us care about the negative effects eh?

[Wolfheart.7483]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Wolfheart.7483 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Wolfheart.7483 said:I am fine with DPS meters. I am quite skilled at playing all of my characters and can pull off meta rotations if needed but I

prefer

a slightly more laid back approach. I would never join a raid group looking for meta rotation/DPS if I wasn't feeling up to the task. Rather, I would look for another, more casual, group or start my own.

The issue with banning a DPS meter or anything similar will always be this: It is the player being toxic, not the meter. There will always be a percentage of the player base who want to be toxic and will find a way to do it.

I remember when people would have AP requirements in LFG to do dungeons. They were being elitist based off a number that didn't have any direct relation to skill. But it was one of the only things that could, at the very least, show a level of experience in the game as a whole that could not be faked. People were kicked or not allowed in groups because they didn't have enough AP. It was a pointless measure of how skilled a player was. Should a ban on achievement points have been considered at that time?

If you join a group who posted for specific requirements, then they have every right to kick you if you don't meet those requirements. There will always be he-said/she-said gray area (my DPS went lower because I had to res you, etc.) but that can happen in any circumstance, with or without DPS meters. The finger pointing and details of how/why someone is blamed will simply change form.

DPS meters just become an easy target to blame for the toxicity. The DPS meter is simply a tool.

For those that want DPS meters banned, what exactly do you hope to accomplish? Those toxic elitists welcoming you with open arms? Why would you want to be in their groups anyway?

TL;DRPeople are the toxic element, not the DPS meter. That will not change.

your actually incorrect here, the problem with such tools is that they are opinionated and used by players with bias (I as a tool focus on dps, I as a player want max dps)More importantly it is well understood scientifically that there are a number of behavioral issues that WILL occur unless the player happens to be a behavioral or data scientist and they can control the environment (we ofc cannot) and they do not have a bias (which they have), for example the observer-expectancy effect and ofc confirmation bias.

The same effects can happen, will happen and do happen, with or without dps meters. Because with or without them players still have expectations and bias, based on arbitrary indicators like AP number, LI count and whatnot. It's not like we've not seen it already. If anything, dps meters counter said effects by objectively measuring performance. So no, he's actually correct and you aren't.

no it will happen MORE if the tools are provided that can be misued, thats the point.

Put it this way:

• At best its a tool used by a small % of the population to improve themselves and others in a good mannered way. A proportion of this % of player base will show bias and not be aware of their biased viewpoint.

• At worst its a tool used by the ignorant or offensive who may or may not be in control of their behaviour and understand their anti social impact. Worse still are the maliscious and rude players deliberately use the tool to bully.

• the majority of people dont give a kitten about meters.

I don't think the positives outweigh the negatives for the many, do you?

If the majority don't care about DPS meters, as you claim, then neither the positives nor the negatives outweigh the other for the

many

if they are indifferent to it.The worst behavior, as you described it, would be exhibited by the same players but in a different way, using a different tool/criteria.

maybe i should clarify to avoid the spin, the majority don't care about using meters, obviously they and us care about the negative effects eh?

The DPS meter doesn't cause negative effects, player behavior does. The players behaving that way will still behave that way without DPS meters, eh?

[CptAurellian.9537]

@lmaogg.7325 said:How is it a stupid thread. It's a fact that this is happening.It's certainly happening, as there have always been, are, and will always be some jerks in this game (and every other MMO). But that's not yet relevant. It's the frequency that matters and I see no reason to believe that it happens often enough to make it matter. We've also had more than enough kicks over extremely stupid metrics like AP in the past and they did not remove AP.

With all the open toxicity from the anti-meter crowd, I dare suggest that this community has a wholly different and much more relevant problem.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Makai.3429 said:As I said to the other fellow earlier, count yourself fortunate then, and be glad you are allowed to do high end content. This game has a lot of terrible people - some of the worst I've ever seen in my 20 years of playing MMOs.

Exaggeration and hyperbole I see again.I guess you are the unfortunate here, because GW2 has one of the best communities in any MMORPG, that you've seen only the worst you must have rotten luck here. And somehow was really lucky in all the other MMORPGs you've ever played. Can't explain it otherwise.

[Azoqu.8917]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Azoqu.8917 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:More importantly it is well understood scientifically that there are a number of behavioral issues that WILL occur unless the player happens to be a behavioral or data scientist and they can control the environment (we ofc cannot) and they do not have a bias (which they have), for example the observer-expectancy effect and ofc confirmation bias.

Please cite the peer reviewed paper where said experiment was done.

do it yourself, its not my job to educate you. The papers go back to the 60's at least, this isn't new stuff that's being disputed, its well understood human behavior. You really need proof that these effects exist lol?

In an argument concerning data, it is up to the arguer to provide the proof for the point they are arguing, not up to the person they are trying to convince to look for said proof (otherwise I say I couldn't find it and therefor your point has no proof, even if there is tons out there). And my whole point was for those who may not have seen said data, not for myself.