I hate what DPS meters have done to PVE endgame...

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

@lmaogg.7325 said:

@"Omar Aschi Popp.7496" said:For the record I am 100% ok with dps meters and I'm a casual scrub.

Here's the thing... dps meters are not "toxic"Some players who use them are.

Take away dps meters and what are you left with? Hm?

What?

Oh yeah! that SAME player still being a kitten because GUESS WHAT he was an kitten BEDORE DPS METERS .

Nope. You remove it and we as a community have 1 lesser reason having to deal with those kitten. And they have 1 lesser excuse to be a d1ck to others.Simple fact.

They will go back to using X Classes Only, LI, X amount of Kill Proof, Titles, AP, X Mastery Rank, etc to kick people. All of which isn't objective and is even more toxic than objective data that pertains to the events at hand using the metrics.

[Makai.3429]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Makai.3429 said:As I said to the other fellow earlier, count yourself fortunate then, and be glad you are allowed to do high end content. This game has a lot of terrible people - some of the worst I've ever seen in my 20 years of playing MMOs.

Exaggeration and hyperbole I see again.I guess you are the unfortunate here, because GW2 has one of the best communities in any MMORPG, that you've seen only the worst you must have rotten luck here. And somehow was really lucky in all the other MMORPGs you've ever played. Can't explain it otherwise.

How is it hyperbole if I'm citing my> @Fermi.2409 said:

@Makai.3429 said:I tend to rage a lot when I get into down state, but I always direct the anger at myself rather than others. As for telling me to l2p, well, it's easier to insult someone than empathize with them, especially in online content.

So you're having poor performance in the fractals (no matter the cause) and are raging into chat, and you're blaming the other people for kicking you? There's clearly more here then you were originally trying to lead people to believe

I always direct the anger at myself rather than others, which means I don't point fingers at my teammates for failing, but at myself. You're putting words into my mouth. I don't rage in chat, but yell at myself in real life.

[Omar Aschi Popp.7496]

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@lmaogg.7325 said:

@"Omar Aschi Popp.7496" said:For the record I am 100% ok with dps meters and I'm a casual scrub.

Here's the thing... dps meters are not "toxic"Some players who use them are.

Take away dps meters and what are you left with? Hm?

What?

Oh yeah! that SAME player still being a kitten because GUESS WHAT he was an kitten BEDORE DPS METERS .

Nope. You remove it and we as a community have 1 lesser reason having to deal with those kitten. And they have 1 lesser excuse to be a d1ck to others.Simple fact.

They will go back to using LI, X amount of Kill Proof, Titles, AP, X Mastery Rank, etc to kick people. All of which isn't objective and is even more toxic than objective data that pertains to the events at hand using the metrics.

Get rid of titles and APPROBLEM SOLVED?

Next we need an npc merchant that will unlock our choice of 90 skins and dyes.

Umm what else..

[IndigoSundown.5419]

Any perusal of the old forums will find myriad discussions about exclusion. Unless people want to bury their heads in the sand, it should be a given that GW2 has almost since launch had exclusion based on player preferences for playing a certain way. In GW2 forums, many of those discussions include references to criteria used as justification to exclude. Those criteria include AP, gear pings, certain professions only, and since raids appeared, LI. This phenomenon can be tracked back to other MMO's as well, should one want to.

The OP and others assert that exclusion issues have significantly worsened, and that the cause of this dramatic increase has been the use of a damage meter. The problem with these assertions is that they are anecdotal in nature. That makes the assertion opinion, not fact. For the assertion to be fact, those making the assertion would have to assume the burden of proof. That's vanishingly unlikely.

One problem, as with many issues, is that people assume their opinion is correct, For the most part, people have an investment in being right. So, their opinion is obviously right, to them. As a result, no argument is likely to remove meter blame, just as no argument is likely to sway meter defenders. It may look like that's what's being attempted, and people may think that's what they're trying to do. What's really happening, though , is that people are trying to build agreement for their opinion as a means of convincing ANet to intervene or not intervene.

What I find sad is that should the meter hate succeed in convincing ANet, it will not be because facts have been gathered. No one is going to demonstrate that a meter is the prime cause, rather than the latest in a long line of justifications. No one is going to demonstrate that things would be rosy for those wanting all groups to be everything goes. No, if ANet acts, it will be because ANet decided they needed to act to reduce negative publicity which can and does affect their bottom line. If that happens, exclusion will continue with a different justification.

[Omar Aschi Popp.7496]

@Makai.3429 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Makai.3429 said:As I said to the other fellow earlier, count yourself fortunate then, and be glad you are allowed to do high end content. This game has a lot of terrible people - some of the worst I've ever seen in my 20 years of playing MMOs.

Exaggeration and hyperbole I see again.I guess you are the unfortunate here, because GW2 has one of the best communities in any MMORPG, that you've seen only the worst you must have rotten luck here. And somehow was really lucky in all the other MMORPGs you've ever played. Can't explain it otherwise.

How is it hyperbole if I'm citing my> @Fermi.2409 said:

@Makai.3429 said:I tend to rage a lot when I get into down state, but I always direct the anger at myself rather than others. As for telling me to l2p, well, it's easier to insult someone than empathize with them, especially in online content.

So you're having poor performance in the fractals (no matter the cause) and are raging into chat, and you're blaming the other people for kicking you? There's clearly more here then you were originally trying to lead people to believe

I always direct the anger at myself rather than others

, which means I don't point fingers at my teammates for failing, but at myself. You're putting words into my mouth. I don't rage in chat, but yell at myself in real life.

You probably shouldn't do that.

[Makai.3429]

@Omar Aschi Popp.7496 said:

@Makai.3429 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Makai.3429 said:As I said to the other fellow earlier, count yourself fortunate then, and be glad you are allowed to do high end content. This game has a lot of terrible people - some of the worst I've ever seen in my 20 years of playing MMOs.

Exaggeration and hyperbole I see again.I guess you are the unfortunate here, because GW2 has one of the best communities in any MMORPG, that you've seen only the worst you must have rotten luck here. And somehow was really lucky in all the other MMORPGs you've ever played. Can't explain it otherwise.

How is it hyperbole if I'm citing my> @Fermi.2409 said:

@Makai.3429 said:I tend to rage a lot when I get into down state, but I always direct the anger at myself rather than others. As for telling me to l2p, well, it's easier to insult someone than empathize with them, especially in online content.

So you're having poor performance in the fractals (no matter the cause) and are raging into chat, and you're blaming the other people for kicking you? There's clearly more here then you were originally trying to lead people to believe

I always direct the anger at myself rather than others

, which means I don't point fingers at my teammates for failing, but at myself. You're putting words into my mouth. I don't rage in chat, but yell at myself in real life.

You probably shouldn't do that.

Again, I've been reduced from an expert into a scrub for reasons that aren't my fault. I sincerely hope you never have to experience this.

To answer your question, I am colorblind and cannot keep up with the visual noise in this game. On top of that, I also have a neuro-muscular disease (Charcot-Marie Tooth Disease, or CMT), which hinders my reflexes. In most games this isn't at issue since there's some room for error here and there, but as I said earlier, you can dodge 98 out of 100 attacks in GW2 and still go down.

[Fuzdom.6493]

Ban all 3rd party apps!

Ban repeated offender accounts after 2 in-game cross server email warnings.

That or allow all 3rd party apps.

[Bladestrom.6425]

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:Any perusal of the old forums will find myriad discussions about exclusion. Unless people want to bury their heads in the sand, it should be a given that GW2 has almost since launch had exclusion based on player preferences for playing a certain way. In GW2 forums, many of those discussions include references to criteria used as justification to exclude. Those criteria include AP, gear pings, certain professions only, and since raids appeared, LI. This phenomenon can be tracked back to other MMO's as well, should one want to.

The OP and others assert that exclusion issues have significantly worsened, and that the cause of this dramatic increase has been the use of a damage meter. The problem with these assertions is that they are anecdotal in nature. That makes the assertion opinion, not fact. For the assertion to be fact, those making the assertion would have to assume the burden of proof. That's vanishingly unlikely.

One problem, as with many issues, is that people assume their opinion is correct, For the most part, people have an investment in being right. So, their opinion is obviously right, to them. As a result, no argument is likely to remove meter blame, just as no argument is likely to sway meter defenders. It may look like that's what's being attempted, and people may think that's what they're trying to do. What's really happening, though , is that people are trying to build agreement for their opinion as a means of convincing ANet to intervene or not intervene.

What I find sad is that should the meter hate succeed in convincing ANet, it will not be because facts have been gathered. No one is going to demonstrate that a meter is the prime cause, rather than the latest in a long line of justifications. No one is going to demonstrate that things would be rosy for those wanting all groups to be everything goes. No, if ANet acts, it will be because ANet decided they needed to act to reduce negative publicity which can and does affect their bottom line. If that happens, exclusion will continue with a different justification.

result.

Thers a simple saying 'theres no smoke without fire' and there is plenty of smoke. If I was a designer I would remove it because it does cause grief - we all know this over many many years of mmorpg experience, and WOW is a prime example of how badly it can go wrong, and quite frankly GW2 does not need a meter + the majoirty dont use meters. The only people who lose out are the minority meter users, and im assuming they have the skill to adapt without a meter!

[Abakk.9176]

@Fuzdom.6493 said:Ban all 3rd party apps!

Ban repeated offender accounts after 2 in-game cross server email warnings.

The perfect solution in 2 simple lines.

[Dante.1763]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:Any perusal of the old forums will find myriad discussions about exclusion. Unless people want to bury their heads in the sand, it should be a given that GW2 has almost since launch had exclusion based on player preferences for playing a certain way. In GW2 forums, many of those discussions include references to criteria used as justification to exclude. Those criteria include AP, gear pings, certain professions only, and since raids appeared, LI. This phenomenon can be tracked back to other MMO's as well, should one want to.

The OP and others assert that exclusion issues have significantly worsened, and that the cause of this dramatic increase has been the use of a damage meter. The problem with these assertions is that they are anecdotal in nature. That makes the assertion opinion, not fact. For the assertion to be fact, those making the assertion would have to assume the burden of proof. That's vanishingly unlikely.

One problem, as with many issues, is that people assume their opinion is correct, For the most part, people have an investment in being right. So, their opinion is obviously right, to them. As a result, no argument is likely to remove meter blame, just as no argument is likely to sway meter defenders. It may look like that's what's being attempted, and people may think that's what they're trying to do. What's really happening, though , is that people are trying to build agreement for their opinion as a means of convincing ANet to intervene or not intervene.

What I find sad is that should the meter hate succeed in convincing ANet, it will not be because facts have been gathered. No one is going to demonstrate that a meter is the prime cause, rather than the latest in a long line of justifications. No one is going to demonstrate that things would be rosy for those wanting all groups to be everything goes. No, if ANet acts, it will be because ANet decided they needed to act to reduce negative publicity which can and does affect their bottom line. If that happens, exclusion will continue with a different justification.

result.

Thers a simple saying 'theres no smoke without fire' and there is plenty of smoke. If I was a designer I would remove it because it does cause grief - we all know this over many many years of mmorpg experience, and WOW is a prime example of how badly it can go wrong, and quite frankly GW2 does not need a meter + the majoirty dont use meters. The only people who lose out are the minority meter users, and im assuming they have the skill to adapt without a meter!

Theres plenty of smoke from the same two or three people, and my question is how do you know the population of people using DPS meters? You might be surprised by the number of people who actually use them.

ANDId rather be kicked for having low DPS than for simply playing a class, which was a much larger problem than it is now, and a way bigger problem than a DPS meter ever will be.

[Azoqu.8917]

@Abakk.9176 said:

@Fuzdom.6493 said:Ban all 3rd party apps!

Ban repeated offender accounts after 2 in-game cross server email warnings.

The perfect solution in 2 simple lines.

What class do you play? What is your AP? Because if your AP is under 10k and your class is not Chrono (not Mesmer, but chrono), Druid (same thing), cPS (power and get out), Ele (condi, unless a large hitbox), or Guardian for power, then you can consider yourself getting kicked out of groups and never given the chance to prove yourself.

[Abakk.9176]

@Wolfheart.7483 said:

@lmaogg.7325 said:lmao people who tryhard defending the dps meter are similar to those who defend firearm with the reasoning of "Psychopaths will still be psychopaths even without firearm".

Yeap I won't deny that's true. Except the rest of the world who doesn't allow firearm to public have 0 issues with being killed by gunfire randomly nor do we need one. /shrugDone with this pve kitten thread.

There is a world of difference between the two.

There maybe a difference in severity but the workings are the same... people getting hurt by people who couldn't care less about the consequences of their actions.

It's bad enough we have to deal with those folks, no need to tool them up so they be more efficient with it.

[Bladestrom.6425]

@Dante.1763 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:Any perusal of the old forums will find myriad discussions about exclusion. Unless people want to bury their heads in the sand, it should be a given that GW2 has almost since launch had exclusion based on player preferences for playing a certain way. In GW2 forums, many of those discussions include references to criteria used as justification to exclude. Those criteria include AP, gear pings, certain professions only, and since raids appeared, LI. This phenomenon can be tracked back to other MMO's as well, should one want to.

The OP and others assert that exclusion issues have significantly worsened, and that the cause of this dramatic increase has been the use of a damage meter. The problem with these assertions is that they are anecdotal in nature. That makes the assertion opinion, not fact. For the assertion to be fact, those making the assertion would have to assume the burden of proof. That's vanishingly unlikely.

One problem, as with many issues, is that people assume their opinion is correct, For the most part, people have an investment in being right. So, their opinion is obviously right, to them. As a result, no argument is likely to remove meter blame, just as no argument is likely to sway meter defenders. It may look like that's what's being attempted, and people may think that's what they're trying to do. What's really happening, though , is that people are trying to build agreement for their opinion as a means of convincing ANet to intervene or not intervene.

What I find sad is that should the meter hate succeed in convincing ANet, it will not be because facts have been gathered. No one is going to demonstrate that a meter is the prime cause, rather than the latest in a long line of justifications. No one is going to demonstrate that things would be rosy for those wanting all groups to be everything goes. No, if ANet acts, it will be because ANet decided they needed to act to reduce negative publicity which can and does affect their bottom line. If that happens, exclusion will continue with a different justification.

result.

Thers a simple saying 'theres no smoke without fire' and there is plenty of smoke. If I was a designer I would remove it because it does cause grief - we all know this over many many years of mmorpg experience, and WOW is a prime example of how badly it can go wrong, and quite frankly GW2 does not need a meter + the majoirty dont use meters. The only people who lose out are the minority meter users, and im assuming they have the skill to adapt without a meter!

Theres plenty of smoke from the same two or three people, and my question is how do you know the population of people using DPS meters? You might be surprised by the number of people who actually use them.

Do you really think that do you?

ANDId rather be kicked for having low DPS than for simply playing a class, which was a much larger problem than it is now, and a way bigger problem than a DPS meter ever will be.

or not be kicked for either right.

[Dante.1763]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Dante.1763 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:Any perusal of the old forums will find myriad discussions about exclusion. Unless people want to bury their heads in the sand, it should be a given that GW2 has almost since launch had exclusion based on player preferences for playing a certain way. In GW2 forums, many of those discussions include references to criteria used as justification to exclude. Those criteria include AP, gear pings, certain professions only, and since raids appeared, LI. This phenomenon can be tracked back to other MMO's as well, should one want to.

The OP and others assert that exclusion issues have significantly worsened, and that the cause of this dramatic increase has been the use of a damage meter. The problem with these assertions is that they are anecdotal in nature. That makes the assertion opinion, not fact. For the assertion to be fact, those making the assertion would have to assume the burden of proof. That's vanishingly unlikely.

One problem, as with many issues, is that people assume their opinion is correct, For the most part, people have an investment in being right. So, their opinion is obviously right, to them. As a result, no argument is likely to remove meter blame, just as no argument is likely to sway meter defenders. It may look like that's what's being attempted, and people may think that's what they're trying to do. What's really happening, though , is that people are trying to build agreement for their opinion as a means of convincing ANet to intervene or not intervene.

What I find sad is that should the meter hate succeed in convincing ANet, it will not be because facts have been gathered. No one is going to demonstrate that a meter is the prime cause, rather than the latest in a long line of justifications. No one is going to demonstrate that things would be rosy for those wanting all groups to be everything goes. No, if ANet acts, it will be because ANet decided they needed to act to reduce negative publicity which can and does affect their bottom line. If that happens, exclusion will continue with a different justification.

result.

Thers a simple saying 'theres no smoke without fire' and there is plenty of smoke. If I was a designer I would remove it because it does cause grief - we all know this over many many years of mmorpg experience, and WOW is a prime example of how badly it can go wrong, and quite frankly GW2 does not need a meter + the majoirty dont use meters. The only people who lose out are the minority meter users, and im assuming they have the skill to adapt without a meter!

Theres plenty of smoke from the same two or three people, and my question is how do you know the population of people using DPS meters? You might be surprised by the number of people who actually use them.

Do you really think that do you?

ANDId rather be kicked for having low DPS than for simply playing a class, which was a much larger problem than it is now, and a way bigger problem than a DPS meter ever will be.

or not be kicked for either right.Yes i do, i see the same two or three people posting against DPS meters, the same 2 or three people arguing with you, and random people saying they dont care about having it in game.Except, i used to get kicked from the vast majority of dungeon groups for playing a ranger. They used to be seen as the worst class and thus werent welcome, and this is

DUNGEONS

if we didnt have a DPS meter to show we where moderately usable, wed never get to do any content outside of if we played Druid. Necros would be in this group too, and i think engineers as well.

[Wolfheart.7483]

@Wolfheart.7483 said:

@lmaogg.7325 said:lmao people who tryhard defending the dps meter are similar to those who defend firearm with the reasoning of "Psychopaths will still be psychopaths even without firearm".

Yeap I won't deny that's true. Except the rest of the world who doesn't allow firearm to public have 0 issues with being killed by gunfire randomly nor do we need one. /shrugDone with this pve kitten thread.

There is a world of difference between the two.

Not really. People are still people. The way they think is the same in situations such as this.

K bye.

The basic idea that "guns don't kill people, people kill people" is true. Countries who outlaw guns generally don't do it because they think "guns make people use them badly." They do it because they are trying to protect public safety. DPS meters do not endanger public safety. Guns are dangerous objects, DPS meters are not.

But, I'll throw an example out there to counter yours:Back in the 90s there was a huge backlash against violence in video games. Groups who were anti-gaming claimed that violence in video games caused people to act violently. If they had gotten their way, you might not even be playing Guild Wars 2, it probably wouldn't exist. The individuals who would commit violent acts after playing a violent video game would have been violent individuals with or without the video game. The violence would not manifest because of a video game. The person committing violence should still be held accountable for their behavior.

[Wolfheart.7483]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:Any perusal of the old forums will find myriad discussions about exclusion. Unless people want to bury their heads in the sand, it should be a given that GW2 has almost since launch had exclusion based on player preferences for playing a certain way. In GW2 forums, many of those discussions include references to criteria used as justification to exclude. Those criteria include AP, gear pings, certain professions only, and since raids appeared, LI. This phenomenon can be tracked back to other MMO's as well, should one want to.

The OP and others assert that exclusion issues have significantly worsened, and that the cause of this dramatic increase has been the use of a damage meter. The problem with these assertions is that they are anecdotal in nature. That makes the assertion opinion, not fact. For the assertion to be fact, those making the assertion would have to assume the burden of proof. That's vanishingly unlikely.

One problem, as with many issues, is that people assume their opinion is correct, For the most part, people have an investment in being right. So, their opinion is obviously right, to them. As a result, no argument is likely to remove meter blame, just as no argument is likely to sway meter defenders. It may look like that's what's being attempted, and people may think that's what they're trying to do. What's really happening, though , is that people are trying to build agreement for their opinion as a means of convincing ANet to intervene or not intervene.

What I find sad is that should the meter hate succeed in convincing ANet, it will not be because facts have been gathered. No one is going to demonstrate that a meter is the prime cause, rather than the latest in a long line of justifications. No one is going to demonstrate that things would be rosy for those wanting all groups to be everything goes. No, if ANet acts, it will be because ANet decided they needed to act to reduce negative publicity which can and does affect their bottom line. If that happens, exclusion will continue with a different justification.

result.

Thers a simple saying 'theres no smoke without fire' and there is plenty of smoke. If I was a designer I would remove it because it does cause grief - we all know this over many many years of mmorpg experience, and WOW is a prime example of how badly it can go wrong, and quite frankly GW2 does not need a meter + the majoirty dont use meters. The only people who lose out are the minority meter users, and im assuming they have the skill to adapt without a meter!

"It" doesn't cause grief. For the last time, I submit to you that the DPS meter displays objective data. Nothing more, nothing less. It does not force someone to behave in a toxic way. They will do that anyway, just as often, with or without the DPS meter.

But at this point, it has become readily apparent that neither you nor those so adamantly opposed to the DPS meter will listen to reason. We are simply running in circles. Nothing constructive is manifesting from this so I bid you farewell.

[Abakk.9176]

@Wolfheart.7483 said:

@Wolfheart.7483 said:

@lmaogg.7325 said:lmao people who tryhard defending the dps meter are similar to those who defend firearm with the reasoning of "Psychopaths will still be psychopaths even without firearm".

Yeap I won't deny that's true. Except the rest of the world who doesn't allow firearm to public have 0 issues with being killed by gunfire randomly nor do we need one. /shrugDone with this pve kitten thread.

There is a world of difference between the two.

Not really. People are still people. The way they think is the same in situations such as this.

K bye.

The basic idea that "guns don't kill people, people kill people" is true. Countries who outlaw guns generally don't do it because they think "guns make people use them badly." They do it because they are trying to protect public safety. DPS meters do not endanger public safety. Guns are

dangerous

objects, DPS meters are not.

But, I'll throw an example out there to counter yours:Back in the 90s there was a huge backlash against violence in video games. Groups who were anti-gaming claimed that violence in video games

caused

people to act violently. If they had gotten their way, you might not even be playing Guild Wars 2, it probably wouldn't exist. The individuals who would commit violent acts after playing a violent video game would have been violent individuals with or without the video game. The violence would not manifest because of a video game. The person committing violence should still be held accountable for their behavior.

So basically what you are saying is that after removal of DPS-meters they should go after the people that fall back to other means of discriminating players.

I agree with that.

[Abakk.9176]

@Wolfheart.7483 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:Any perusal of the old forums will find myriad discussions about exclusion. Unless people want to bury their heads in the sand, it should be a given that GW2 has almost since launch had exclusion based on player preferences for playing a certain way. In GW2 forums, many of those discussions include references to criteria used as justification to exclude. Those criteria include AP, gear pings, certain professions only, and since raids appeared, LI. This phenomenon can be tracked back to other MMO's as well, should one want to.

The OP and others assert that exclusion issues have significantly worsened, and that the cause of this dramatic increase has been the use of a damage meter. The problem with these assertions is that they are anecdotal in nature. That makes the assertion opinion, not fact. For the assertion to be fact, those making the assertion would have to assume the burden of proof. That's vanishingly unlikely.

One problem, as with many issues, is that people assume their opinion is correct, For the most part, people have an investment in being right. So, their opinion is obviously right, to them. As a result, no argument is likely to remove meter blame, just as no argument is likely to sway meter defenders. It may look like that's what's being attempted, and people may think that's what they're trying to do. What's really happening, though , is that people are trying to build agreement for their opinion as a means of convincing ANet to intervene or not intervene.

What I find sad is that should the meter hate succeed in convincing ANet, it will not be because facts have been gathered. No one is going to demonstrate that a meter is the prime cause, rather than the latest in a long line of justifications. No one is going to demonstrate that things would be rosy for those wanting all groups to be everything goes. No, if ANet acts, it will be because ANet decided they needed to act to reduce negative publicity which can and does affect their bottom line. If that happens, exclusion will continue with a different justification.

result.

Thers a simple saying 'theres no smoke without fire' and there is plenty of smoke. If I was a designer I would remove it because it does cause grief - we all know this over many many years of mmorpg experience, and WOW is a prime example of how badly it can go wrong, and quite frankly GW2 does not need a meter + the majoirty dont use meters. The only people who lose out are the minority meter users, and im assuming they have the skill to adapt without a meter!

"It" doesn't cause grief. For the last time, I submit to you that the DPS meter displays objective data. Nothing more, nothing less. It does not force someone to behave in a toxic way. They

will

do that anyway, just as often, with or without the DPS meter.

But at this point, it has become readily apparent that neither you nor those so adamantly opposed to the DPS meter will listen to reason. We are simply running in circles. Nothing constructive is manifesting from this so I bid you farewell.

The people against DPS meters in this thread are mostly people that were on the receiving end of the negative effects of said software.

What did you expect? That we would be sweettalked to the 'dark side' ?

[VaaCrow.3076]

@Abakk.9176 said:

@Wolfheart.7483 said:

@Wolfheart.7483 said:

@lmaogg.7325 said:lmao people who tryhard defending the dps meter are similar to those who defend firearm with the reasoning of "Psychopaths will still be psychopaths even without firearm".

Yeap I won't deny that's true. Except the rest of the world who doesn't allow firearm to public have 0 issues with being killed by gunfire randomly nor do we need one. /shrugDone with this pve kitten thread.

There is a world of difference between the two.

Not really. People are still people. The way they think is the same in situations such as this.

K bye.

The basic idea that "guns don't kill people, people kill people" is true. Countries who outlaw guns generally don't do it because they think "guns make people use them badly." They do it because they are trying to protect public safety. DPS meters do not endanger public safety. Guns are

dangerous

objects, DPS meters are not.

But, I'll throw an example out there to counter yours:Back in the 90s there was a huge backlash against violence in video games. Groups who were anti-gaming claimed that violence in video games

caused

people to act violently. If they had gotten their way, you might not even be playing Guild Wars 2, it probably wouldn't exist. The individuals who would commit violent acts after playing a violent video game would have been violent individuals with or without the video game. The violence would not manifest because of a video game. The person committing violence should still be held accountable for their behavior.

So basically what you are saying is that after removal of DPS-meters they should go after the people that fall back to other means of discriminating players.

I agree with that.

That is not what he is saying at all and whats more is that you know it. You provide nothing but out of context quotes or completely imagined meanings to this discussion, over and over. I really dislike you as a fellow human being, and i disagree with everything you have said. Nothing in this world should cater to people with your mindset.

[Dante.1763]

@VaaCrow.3076 said:

@Abakk.9176 said:

@Wolfheart.7483 said:

@Wolfheart.7483 said:

@lmaogg.7325 said:lmao people who tryhard defending the dps meter are similar to those who defend firearm with the reasoning of "Psychopaths will still be psychopaths even without firearm".

Yeap I won't deny that's true. Except the rest of the world who doesn't allow firearm to public have 0 issues with being killed by gunfire randomly nor do we need one. /shrugDone with this pve kitten thread.

There is a world of difference between the two.

Not really. People are still people. The way they think is the same in situations such as this.

K bye.

The basic idea that "guns don't kill people, people kill people" is true. Countries who outlaw guns generally don't do it because they think "guns make people use them badly." They do it because they are trying to protect public safety. DPS meters do not endanger public safety. Guns are

dangerous

objects, DPS meters are not.

But, I'll throw an example out there to counter yours:Back in the 90s there was a huge backlash against violence in video games. Groups who were anti-gaming claimed that violence in video games

caused

people to act violently. If they had gotten their way, you might not even be playing Guild Wars 2, it probably wouldn't exist. The individuals who would commit violent acts after playing a violent video game would have been violent individuals with or without the video game. The violence would not manifest because of a video game. The person committing violence should still be held accountable for their behavior.

So basically what you are saying is that after removal of DPS-meters they should go after the people that fall back to other means of discriminating players.

I agree with that.

That is not what he is saying at all and whats more is that you know it. You provide nothing but out of context quotes or completely imagined meanings to this discussion, over and over. I

really

dislike you as a fellow human being, and i disagree with everything you have said. Nothing in this world should cater to people with your mindset.

Except it happened. Im surprised that people forget about the threads like these.Classes.Usually thief, ranger, engineer or necro, thief later was buffed and got removed from this list.(fairly certain all of these are used NOW because people can see the DPS metrics and can do bench marks, so players are more forgiving)https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/professions/necromancer/Kicked-out-Dungeon-Poor-DPS-Y-No-Love-Anethttps://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/professions/ranger/Sick-of-getting-kicked-for-being-rangerhttps://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/game/dungeons/Thief-Ranger-in-dungeons-kick

AP the most common form of stopping people from joining your group, and by far i think the most useless of the ways people judged other players.https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/game/gw2/Hide-AP-from-other-playershttps://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/game/gw2/AP-Needs-to-be-private

Levels with dungeons(This one is my favorite over all.)https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/game/dungeons/Kicked-from-group-for-being-too-low-levelhttps://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/game/dungeons/Getting-Kicked-from-AC-parties

THisll be my last post in this thread because players so easily forgot about what methods where used to keep people out of content, alot of them far more toxic than something than can actually be measured.

[Bladestrom.6425]

@Dante.1763 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Dante.1763 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:Any perusal of the old forums will find myriad discussions about exclusion. Unless people want to bury their heads in the sand, it should be a given that GW2 has almost since launch had exclusion based on player preferences for playing a certain way. In GW2 forums, many of those discussions include references to criteria used as justification to exclude. Those criteria include AP, gear pings, certain professions only, and since raids appeared, LI. This phenomenon can be tracked back to other MMO's as well, should one want to.

The OP and others assert that exclusion issues have significantly worsened, and that the cause of this dramatic increase has been the use of a damage meter. The problem with these assertions is that they are anecdotal in nature. That makes the assertion opinion, not fact. For the assertion to be fact, those making the assertion would have to assume the burden of proof. That's vanishingly unlikely.

One problem, as with many issues, is that people assume their opinion is correct, For the most part, people have an investment in being right. So, their opinion is obviously right, to them. As a result, no argument is likely to remove meter blame, just as no argument is likely to sway meter defenders. It may look like that's what's being attempted, and people may think that's what they're trying to do. What's really happening, though , is that people are trying to build agreement for their opinion as a means of convincing ANet to intervene or not intervene.

What I find sad is that should the meter hate succeed in convincing ANet, it will not be because facts have been gathered. No one is going to demonstrate that a meter is the prime cause, rather than the latest in a long line of justifications. No one is going to demonstrate that things would be rosy for those wanting all groups to be everything goes. No, if ANet acts, it will be because ANet decided they needed to act to reduce negative publicity which can and does affect their bottom line. If that happens, exclusion will continue with a different justification.

result.

Thers a simple saying 'theres no smoke without fire' and there is plenty of smoke. If I was a designer I would remove it because it does cause grief - we all know this over many many years of mmorpg experience, and WOW is a prime example of how badly it can go wrong, and quite frankly GW2 does not need a meter + the majoirty dont use meters. The only people who lose out are the minority meter users, and im assuming they have the skill to adapt without a meter!

Theres plenty of smoke from the same two or three people, and my question is how do you know the population of people using DPS meters? You might be surprised by the number of people who actually use them.

Do you really think that do you?

ANDId rather be kicked for having low DPS than for simply playing a class, which was a much larger problem than it is now, and a way bigger problem than a DPS meter ever will be.

or not be kicked for either right.Yes i do, i see the same two or three people posting against DPS meters, the same 2 or three people arguing with you, and random people saying they dont care about having it in game.Except, i used to get kicked from the vast majority of dungeon groups for playing a ranger. They used to be seen as the worst class and thus werent welcome, and this is

DUNGEONS

if we didnt have a DPS meter to show we where moderately usable, wed never get to do any content outside of if we played Druid. Necros would be in this group too, and i think engineers as well.

@Wolfheart.7483 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:Any perusal of the old forums will find myriad discussions about exclusion. Unless people want to bury their heads in the sand, it should be a given that GW2 has almost since launch had exclusion based on player preferences for playing a certain way. In GW2 forums, many of those discussions include references to criteria used as justification to exclude. Those criteria include AP, gear pings, certain professions only, and since raids appeared, LI. This phenomenon can be tracked back to other MMO's as well, should one want to.

The OP and others assert that exclusion issues have significantly worsened, and that the cause of this dramatic increase has been the use of a damage meter. The problem with these assertions is that they are anecdotal in nature. That makes the assertion opinion, not fact. For the assertion to be fact, those making the assertion would have to assume the burden of proof. That's vanishingly unlikely.

One problem, as with many issues, is that people assume their opinion is correct, For the most part, people have an investment in being right. So, their opinion is obviously right, to them. As a result, no argument is likely to remove meter blame, just as no argument is likely to sway meter defenders. It may look like that's what's being attempted, and people may think that's what they're trying to do. What's really happening, though , is that people are trying to build agreement for their opinion as a means of convincing ANet to intervene or not intervene.

What I find sad is that should the meter hate succeed in convincing ANet, it will not be because facts have been gathered. No one is going to demonstrate that a meter is the prime cause, rather than the latest in a long line of justifications. No one is going to demonstrate that things would be rosy for those wanting all groups to be everything goes. No, if ANet acts, it will be because ANet decided they needed to act to reduce negative publicity which can and does affect their bottom line. If that happens, exclusion will continue with a different justification.

result.

Thers a simple saying 'theres no smoke without fire' and there is plenty of smoke. If I was a designer I would remove it because it does cause grief - we all know this over many many years of mmorpg experience, and WOW is a prime example of how badly it can go wrong, and quite frankly GW2 does not need a meter + the majoirty dont use meters. The only people who lose out are the minority meter users, and im assuming they have the skill to adapt without a meter!

"It" doesn't cause grief. For the last time, I submit to you that the DPS meter displays objective data. Nothing more, nothing less. It does not force someone to behave in a toxic way. They

will

do that anyway, just as often, with or without the DPS meter.

But at this point, it has become readily apparent that neither you nor those so adamantly opposed to the DPS meter will listen to reason. We are simply running in circles. Nothing constructive is manifesting from this so I bid you farewell.

A meter is not objective if it does not give a complete picture - does it measure players intent? does it measure players altrustic decisions? no they do not. objectivity is also based on the observer. You are also wrong that meters dont cause issues, human behaviour changes when observed. Human behaviour can also change as a result of confirmation bias - fed by tools that are specifically designed to compare player performance.

il ask this to people who support meters, does it measure players intent and does it measure players altrustic decision making? Because that's what great gameplay is about, not that you can pump out big numbers.

[Koyomi.1378]

A meter is not objective if it does not give a complete picture - does it measure players intent? does it measure players altrustic decisions? no they do not. objectivity is also based on the observer. You are also wrong that meters dont cause issues, human behaviour changes when observed. Human behaviour can also change as a result of confirmation bias - fed by tools that are specifically designed to compare player performance.

Intentions don't matter, it measures your dps, your total damage, your boon sharing and your healing done to yourself and others, that paints a big enough picture regardless of whatever you may think.

[Bladestrom.6425]

@Koyomi.1378 said:

A meter is not objective if it does not give a complete picture - does it measure players intent? does it measure players altrustic decisions? no they do not. objectivity is also based on the observer. You are also wrong that meters dont cause issues, human behaviour changes when observed. Human behaviour can also change as a result of confirmation bias - fed by tools that are specifically designed to compare player performance.

Intentions don't matter, it measures your dps, your total damage, your boon sharing and your healing done to yourself and others, that paints a big enough picture regardless of whatever you may think.

lol says it all really.

[Abakk.9176]

@VaaCrow.3076 said:

@Abakk.9176 said:

@Wolfheart.7483 said:

@Wolfheart.7483 said:

@lmaogg.7325 said:lmao people who tryhard defending the dps meter are similar to those who defend firearm with the reasoning of "Psychopaths will still be psychopaths even without firearm".

Yeap I won't deny that's true. Except the rest of the world who doesn't allow firearm to public have 0 issues with being killed by gunfire randomly nor do we need one. /shrugDone with this pve kitten thread.

There is a world of difference between the two.

Not really. People are still people. The way they think is the same in situations such as this.

K bye.

The basic idea that "guns don't kill people, people kill people" is true. Countries who outlaw guns generally don't do it because they think "guns make people use them badly." They do it because they are trying to protect public safety. DPS meters do not endanger public safety. Guns are

dangerous

objects, DPS meters are not.

But, I'll throw an example out there to counter yours:Back in the 90s there was a huge backlash against violence in video games. Groups who were anti-gaming claimed that violence in video games

caused

people to act violently. If they had gotten their way, you might not even be playing Guild Wars 2, it probably wouldn't exist. The individuals who would commit violent acts after playing a violent video game would have been violent individuals with or without the video game. The violence would not manifest because of a video game. The person committing violence should still be held accountable for their behavior.

So basically what you are saying is that after removal of DPS-meters they should go after the people that fall back to other means of discriminating players.

I agree with that.

That is not what he is saying at all and whats more is that you know it. You provide nothing but out of context quotes or completely imagined meanings to this discussion, over and over. I

really

dislike you as a fellow human being, and i disagree with everything you have said. Nothing in this world should cater to people with your mindset.

It is exactly what he is saying. I agree however that it is probably not what he wanted to say but he just 'outclevered' himself.

Removing arms and videogames from society is never going to happen and from the looks DPS-meters are probably in the same corner (although it would be a whole lot easier).

But then there still needs to be looked at the ways people get coerced and treated badly by those that wish to play only in the most perfect of circumstances.

[Makai.3429]

@Abakk.9176 said:

@VaaCrow.3076 said:

@Abakk.9176 said:

@Wolfheart.7483 said:

@Wolfheart.7483 said:

@lmaogg.7325 said:lmao people who tryhard defending the dps meter are similar to those who defend firearm with the reasoning of "Psychopaths will still be psychopaths even without firearm".

Yeap I won't deny that's true. Except the rest of the world who doesn't allow firearm to public have 0 issues with being killed by gunfire randomly nor do we need one. /shrugDone with this pve kitten thread.

There is a world of difference between the two.

Not really. People are still people. The way they think is the same in situations such as this.

K bye.

The basic idea that "guns don't kill people, people kill people" is true. Countries who outlaw guns generally don't do it because they think "guns make people use them badly." They do it because they are trying to protect public safety. DPS meters do not endanger public safety. Guns are

dangerous

objects, DPS meters are not.

But, I'll throw an example out there to counter yours:Back in the 90s there was a huge backlash against violence in video games. Groups who were anti-gaming claimed that violence in video games

caused

people to act violently. If they had gotten their way, you might not even be playing Guild Wars 2, it probably wouldn't exist. The individuals who would commit violent acts after playing a violent video game would have been violent individuals with or without the video game. The violence would not manifest because of a video game. The person committing violence should still be held accountable for their behavior.

So basically what you are saying is that after removal of DPS-meters they should go after the people that fall back to other means of discriminating players.

I agree with that.

That is not what he is saying at all and whats more is that you know it. You provide nothing but out of context quotes or completely imagined meanings to this discussion, over and over. I

really

dislike you as a fellow human being, and i disagree with everything you have said. Nothing in this world should cater to people with your mindset.

It is exactly what he is saying. I agree however that it is probably not what he wanted to say but he just 'outclevered' himself.

Removing arms and videogames from society is never going to happen and from the looks DPS-meters are probably in the same corner (although it would be a whole lot easier).

But then there still needs to be looked at the ways people get coerced and treated badly by those that wish to play only in the most perfect of circumstances.

Here here! I like the way you think.