I hate what DPS meters have done to PVE endgame...

Rhanoa.3960 · September 21, 2017

@Wolfheart.7483 said:
@vesica tempestas.1563 said:
@IndigoSundown.5419 said:Any perusal of the old forums will find myriad discussions about exclusion. Unless people want to bury their heads in the sand, it should be a given that GW2 has almost since launch had exclusion based on player preferences for playing a certain way. In GW2 forums, many of those discussions include references to criteria used as justification to exclude. Those criteria include AP, gear pings, certain professions only, and since raids appeared, LI. This phenomenon can be tracked back to other MMO's as well, should one want to.
The OP and others assert that exclusion issues have significantly worsened, and that the cause of this dramatic increase has been the use of a damage meter. The problem with these assertions is that they are anecdotal in nature. That makes the assertion opinion, not fact. For the assertion to be fact, those making the assertion would have to assume the burden of proof. That's vanishingly unlikely.
One problem, as with many issues, is that people assume their opinion is correct, For the most part, people have an investment in being right. So, their opinion is obviously right, to them. As a result, no argument is likely to remove meter blame, just as no argument is likely to sway meter defenders. It may look like that's what's being attempted, and people may think that's what they're trying to do. What's really happening, though , is that people are trying to build agreement for their opinion as a means of convincing ANet to intervene or not intervene.
What I find sad is that should the meter hate succeed in convincing ANet, it will not be because facts have been gathered. No one is going to demonstrate that a meter is the prime cause, rather than the latest in a long line of justifications. No one is going to demonstrate that things would be rosy for those wanting all groups to be everything goes. No, if ANet acts, it will be because ANet decided they needed to act to reduce negative publicity which can and does affect their bottom line. If that happens, exclusion will continue with a different justification.

result.

Thers a simple saying 'theres no smoke without fire' and there is plenty of smoke. If I was a designer I would remove it because it does cause grief - we all know this over many many years of mmorpg experience, and WOW is a prime example of how badly it can go wrong, and quite frankly GW2 does not need a meter + the majoirty dont use meters. The only people who lose out are the minority meter users, and im assuming they have the skill to adapt without a meter!

"It" doesn't cause grief. For the last time, I submit to you that the DPS meter displays objective data. Nothing more, nothing less. It does not force someone to behave in a toxic way. They

will

do that anyway, just as often, with or without the DPS meter.

But at this point, it has become readily apparent that neither you nor those so adamantly opposed to the DPS meter will listen to reason. We are simply running in circles. Nothing constructive is manifesting from this so I bid you farewell.

@Wolfheart.7483 said:

@Wolfheart.7483 said:
@lmaogg.7325 said:lmao people who tryhard defending the dps meter are similar to those who defend firearm with the reasoning of "Psychopaths will still be psychopaths even without firearm".
Yeap I won't deny that's true. Except the rest of the world who doesn't allow firearm to public have 0 issues with being killed by gunfire randomly nor do we need one. /shrugDone with this pve kitten thread.

There is a world of difference between the two.

Not really. People are still people. The way they think is the same in situations such as this.

K bye.

The basic idea that "guns don't kill people, people kill people" is true. Countries who outlaw guns generally don't do it because they think "guns make people use them badly." They do it because they are trying to protect public safety. DPS meters do not endanger public safety. Guns are

dangerous

objects, DPS meters are not.

But, I'll throw an example out there to counter yours:Back in the 90s there was a huge backlash against violence in video games. Groups who were anti-gaming claimed that violence in video games

caused

people to act violently. If they had gotten their way, you might not even be playing Guild Wars 2, it probably wouldn't exist. The individuals who would commit violent acts after playing a violent video game would have been violent individuals with or without the video game. The violence would not manifest because of a video game. The person committing violence should still be held accountable for their behavior.

Amazing!I have to applaud you on making an argument on completely separate issues that do not relate to one another.Comparing RL Violence to DPS Meter 3rd party software?What next? Penguins Survival in Antarctica to 3rd Party software? Is there no end in sight?

I suggest removing combat log altogether as it would end this discussion with the Nail in the coffin.

BlaqueFyre.5678 · September 21, 2017

@Fuzdom.6493 said:Ban all 3rd party apps!
Ban repeated offender accounts after 2 in-game cross server email warnings.
That or allow all 3rd party apps.
@vesica tempestas.1563 said:
@Dante.1763 said:
@vesica tempestas.1563 said:
@Dante.1763 said:
@vesica tempestas.1563 said:
@IndigoSundown.5419 said:Any perusal of the old forums will find myriad discussions about exclusion. Unless people want to bury their heads in the sand, it should be a given that GW2 has almost since launch had exclusion based on player preferences for playing a certain way. In GW2 forums, many of those discussions include references to criteria used as justification to exclude. Those criteria include AP, gear pings, certain professions only, and since raids appeared, LI. This phenomenon can be tracked back to other MMO's as well, should one want to.
The OP and others assert that exclusion issues have significantly worsened, and that the cause of this dramatic increase has been the use of a damage meter. The problem with these assertions is that they are anecdotal in nature. That makes the assertion opinion, not fact. For the assertion to be fact, those making the assertion would have to assume the burden of proof. That's vanishingly unlikely.
One problem, as with many issues, is that people assume their opinion is correct, For the most part, people have an investment in being right. So, their opinion is obviously right, to them. As a result, no argument is likely to remove meter blame, just as no argument is likely to sway meter defenders. It may look like that's what's being attempted, and people may think that's what they're trying to do. What's really happening, though , is that people are trying to build agreement for their opinion as a means of convincing ANet to intervene or not intervene.
What I find sad is that should the meter hate succeed in convincing ANet, it will not be because facts have been gathered. No one is going to demonstrate that a meter is the prime cause, rather than the latest in a long line of justifications. No one is going to demonstrate that things would be rosy for those wanting all groups to be everything goes. No, if ANet acts, it will be because ANet decided they needed to act to reduce negative publicity which can and does affect their bottom line. If that happens, exclusion will continue with a different justification.

result.

Thers a simple saying 'theres no smoke without fire' and there is plenty of smoke. If I was a designer I would remove it because it does cause grief - we all know this over many many years of mmorpg experience, and WOW is a prime example of how badly it can go wrong, and quite frankly GW2 does not need a meter + the majoirty dont use meters. The only people who lose out are the minority meter users, and im assuming they have the skill to adapt without a meter!

Theres plenty of smoke from the same two or three people, and my question is how do you know the population of people using DPS meters? You might be surprised by the number of people who actually use them.

Do you really think that do you?

ANDId rather be kicked for having low DPS than for simply playing a class, which was a much larger problem than it is now, and a way bigger problem than a DPS meter ever will be.

or not be kicked for either right.Yes i do, i see the same two or three people posting against DPS meters, the same 2 or three people arguing with you, and random people saying they dont care about having it in game.Except, i used to get kicked from the vast majority of dungeon groups for playing a ranger. They used to be seen as the worst class and thus werent welcome, and this is

DUNGEONS

if we didnt have a DPS meter to show we where moderately usable, wed never get to do any content outside of if we played Druid. Necros would be in this group too, and i think engineers as well.

@Wolfheart.7483 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:
@IndigoSundown.5419 said:Any perusal of the old forums will find myriad discussions about exclusion. Unless people want to bury their heads in the sand, it should be a given that GW2 has almost since launch had exclusion based on player preferences for playing a certain way. In GW2 forums, many of those discussions include references to criteria used as justification to exclude. Those criteria include AP, gear pings, certain professions only, and since raids appeared, LI. This phenomenon can be tracked back to other MMO's as well, should one want to.
The OP and others assert that exclusion issues have significantly worsened, and that the cause of this dramatic increase has been the use of a damage meter. The problem with these assertions is that they are anecdotal in nature. That makes the assertion opinion, not fact. For the assertion to be fact, those making the assertion would have to assume the burden of proof. That's vanishingly unlikely.
One problem, as with many issues, is that people assume their opinion is correct, For the most part, people have an investment in being right. So, their opinion is obviously right, to them. As a result, no argument is likely to remove meter blame, just as no argument is likely to sway meter defenders. It may look like that's what's being attempted, and people may think that's what they're trying to do. What's really happening, though , is that people are trying to build agreement for their opinion as a means of convincing ANet to intervene or not intervene.
What I find sad is that should the meter hate succeed in convincing ANet, it will not be because facts have been gathered. No one is going to demonstrate that a meter is the prime cause, rather than the latest in a long line of justifications. No one is going to demonstrate that things would be rosy for those wanting all groups to be everything goes. No, if ANet acts, it will be because ANet decided they needed to act to reduce negative publicity which can and does affect their bottom line. If that happens, exclusion will continue with a different justification.

result.

Thers a simple saying 'theres no smoke without fire' and there is plenty of smoke. If I was a designer I would remove it because it does cause grief - we all know this over many many years of mmorpg experience, and WOW is a prime example of how badly it can go wrong, and quite frankly GW2 does not need a meter + the majoirty dont use meters. The only people who lose out are the minority meter users, and im assuming they have the skill to adapt without a meter!

"It" doesn't cause grief. For the last time, I submit to you that the DPS meter displays objective data. Nothing more, nothing less. It does not force someone to behave in a toxic way. They

will

do that anyway, just as often, with or without the DPS meter.

But at this point, it has become readily apparent that neither you nor those so adamantly opposed to the DPS meter will listen to reason. We are simply running in circles. Nothing constructive is manifesting from this so I bid you farewell.

A meter is not objective if it does not give a complete picture - does it measure players intent? does it measure players altrustic decisions? no they do not. objectivity is also based on the observer. You are also wrong that meters dont cause issues, human behaviour changes when observed. Human behaviour can also change as a result of confirmation bias - fed by tools that are specifically designed to compare player performance.

il ask this to people who support meters, does it measure players intent and does it measure players altrustic decision making? Because that's what great gameplay is about, not that you can pump out big numbers.

Meters are purely objective, since feelings, intent etc are what biased opinions are based on. Meters provide pure unbiased highly objective data that encompass every aspect of the encounters that are measurable and are facts of the situation they are used in, nothing more nothing less.

So if player X fails to do Value Y of Role Z, when Value Y is the bare minimum required of that role in that encounter and a decision is made off of that information how is that not purely objective looking at the facts since all Combat Data is conveyed in the Meter not just partial aspects.

BlaqueFyre.5678 · September 21, 2017

@Rhanoa.3960 said:
@Wolfheart.7483 said:
@vesica tempestas.1563 said:
@IndigoSundown.5419 said:Any perusal of the old forums will find myriad discussions about exclusion. Unless people want to bury their heads in the sand, it should be a given that GW2 has almost since launch had exclusion based on player preferences for playing a certain way. In GW2 forums, many of those discussions include references to criteria used as justification to exclude. Those criteria include AP, gear pings, certain professions only, and since raids appeared, LI. This phenomenon can be tracked back to other MMO's as well, should one want to.
The OP and others assert that exclusion issues have significantly worsened, and that the cause of this dramatic increase has been the use of a damage meter. The problem with these assertions is that they are anecdotal in nature. That makes the assertion opinion, not fact. For the assertion to be fact, those making the assertion would have to assume the burden of proof. That's vanishingly unlikely.
One problem, as with many issues, is that people assume their opinion is correct, For the most part, people have an investment in being right. So, their opinion is obviously right, to them. As a result, no argument is likely to remove meter blame, just as no argument is likely to sway meter defenders. It may look like that's what's being attempted, and people may think that's what they're trying to do. What's really happening, though , is that people are trying to build agreement for their opinion as a means of convincing ANet to intervene or not intervene.
What I find sad is that should the meter hate succeed in convincing ANet, it will not be because facts have been gathered. No one is going to demonstrate that a meter is the prime cause, rather than the latest in a long line of justifications. No one is going to demonstrate that things would be rosy for those wanting all groups to be everything goes. No, if ANet acts, it will be because ANet decided they needed to act to reduce negative publicity which can and does affect their bottom line. If that happens, exclusion will continue with a different justification.

result.

Thers a simple saying 'theres no smoke without fire' and there is plenty of smoke. If I was a designer I would remove it because it does cause grief - we all know this over many many years of mmorpg experience, and WOW is a prime example of how badly it can go wrong, and quite frankly GW2 does not need a meter + the majoirty dont use meters. The only people who lose out are the minority meter users, and im assuming they have the skill to adapt without a meter!

"It" doesn't cause grief. For the last time, I submit to you that the DPS meter displays objective data. Nothing more, nothing less. It does not force someone to behave in a toxic way. They

will

do that anyway, just as often, with or without the DPS meter.

But at this point, it has become readily apparent that neither you nor those so adamantly opposed to the DPS meter will listen to reason. We are simply running in circles. Nothing constructive is manifesting from this so I bid you farewell.

@Wolfheart.7483 said:

@Wolfheart.7483 said:
@lmaogg.7325 said:lmao people who tryhard defending the dps meter are similar to those who defend firearm with the reasoning of "Psychopaths will still be psychopaths even without firearm".
Yeap I won't deny that's true. Except the rest of the world who doesn't allow firearm to public have 0 issues with being killed by gunfire randomly nor do we need one. /shrugDone with this pve kitten thread.

There is a world of difference between the two.

Not really. People are still people. The way they think is the same in situations such as this.

K bye.

The basic idea that "guns don't kill people, people kill people" is true. Countries who outlaw guns generally don't do it because they think "guns make people use them badly." They do it because they are trying to protect public safety. DPS meters do not endanger public safety. Guns are

dangerous

objects, DPS meters are not.

But, I'll throw an example out there to counter yours:Back in the 90s there was a huge backlash against violence in video games. Groups who were anti-gaming claimed that violence in video games

caused

people to act violently. If they had gotten their way, you might not even be playing Guild Wars 2, it probably wouldn't exist. The individuals who would commit violent acts after playing a violent video game would have been violent individuals with or without the video game. The violence would not manifest because of a video game. The person committing violence should still be held accountable for their behavior.

Amazing!I have to applaud you on making an argument on completely separate issues that do not relate to one another.

Comparing RL Violence to DPS Meter 3rd party software?

What next? Penguins Survival in Antarctica to 3rd Party software? Is there no end in sight?

I suggest removing combat log altogether as it would end this discussion with the Nail in the coffin.

Look at what he quoted, someone else made that comparison, Wolfheart called them outing the basis that they are in no way similar.

VaaCrow.3076 · September 21, 2017

@Rhanoa.3960 said:I suggest removing combat log altogether as it would end this discussion with the Nail in the coffin.

You are hilarious. You seem to want to remove all of the tools, both 3rd party and designed by Anet that allow a player to learn from mistakes and improve their game play.Combat log is a supremely useful tool, that can help you better learn how to play the game. It seems to me that you just don't believe in self improvement, and that is fine, yo do you, we always need a worst case scenario to draw inspiration from.

Rhanoa.3960 · September 21, 2017

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:
@Fuzdom.6493 said:Ban all 3rd party apps!
Ban repeated offender accounts after 2 in-game cross server email warnings.
That or allow all 3rd party apps.
@vesica tempestas.1563 said:
@Dante.1763 said:
@vesica tempestas.1563 said:
@Dante.1763 said:
@vesica tempestas.1563 said:
@IndigoSundown.5419 said:Any perusal of the old forums will find myriad discussions about exclusion. Unless people want to bury their heads in the sand, it should be a given that GW2 has almost since launch had exclusion based on player preferences for playing a certain way. In GW2 forums, many of those discussions include references to criteria used as justification to exclude. Those criteria include AP, gear pings, certain professions only, and since raids appeared, LI. This phenomenon can be tracked back to other MMO's as well, should one want to.
The OP and others assert that exclusion issues have significantly worsened, and that the cause of this dramatic increase has been the use of a damage meter. The problem with these assertions is that they are anecdotal in nature. That makes the assertion opinion, not fact. For the assertion to be fact, those making the assertion would have to assume the burden of proof. That's vanishingly unlikely.
One problem, as with many issues, is that people assume their opinion is correct, For the most part, people have an investment in being right. So, their opinion is obviously right, to them. As a result, no argument is likely to remove meter blame, just as no argument is likely to sway meter defenders. It may look like that's what's being attempted, and people may think that's what they're trying to do. What's really happening, though , is that people are trying to build agreement for their opinion as a means of convincing ANet to intervene or not intervene.
What I find sad is that should the meter hate succeed in convincing ANet, it will not be because facts have been gathered. No one is going to demonstrate that a meter is the prime cause, rather than the latest in a long line of justifications. No one is going to demonstrate that things would be rosy for those wanting all groups to be everything goes. No, if ANet acts, it will be because ANet decided they needed to act to reduce negative publicity which can and does affect their bottom line. If that happens, exclusion will continue with a different justification.

result.

Thers a simple saying 'theres no smoke without fire' and there is plenty of smoke. If I was a designer I would remove it because it does cause grief - we all know this over many many years of mmorpg experience, and WOW is a prime example of how badly it can go wrong, and quite frankly GW2 does not need a meter + the majoirty dont use meters. The only people who lose out are the minority meter users, and im assuming they have the skill to adapt without a meter!

Theres plenty of smoke from the same two or three people, and my question is how do you know the population of people using DPS meters? You might be surprised by the number of people who actually use them.

Do you really think that do you?

ANDId rather be kicked for having low DPS than for simply playing a class, which was a much larger problem than it is now, and a way bigger problem than a DPS meter ever will be.

or not be kicked for either right.Yes i do, i see the same two or three people posting against DPS meters, the same 2 or three people arguing with you, and random people saying they dont care about having it in game.Except, i used to get kicked from the vast majority of dungeon groups for playing a ranger. They used to be seen as the worst class and thus werent welcome, and this is

DUNGEONS

if we didnt have a DPS meter to show we where moderately usable, wed never get to do any content outside of if we played Druid. Necros would be in this group too, and i think engineers as well.

@Wolfheart.7483 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:
@IndigoSundown.5419 said:Any perusal of the old forums will find myriad discussions about exclusion. Unless people want to bury their heads in the sand, it should be a given that GW2 has almost since launch had exclusion based on player preferences for playing a certain way. In GW2 forums, many of those discussions include references to criteria used as justification to exclude. Those criteria include AP, gear pings, certain professions only, and since raids appeared, LI. This phenomenon can be tracked back to other MMO's as well, should one want to.
The OP and others assert that exclusion issues have significantly worsened, and that the cause of this dramatic increase has been the use of a damage meter. The problem with these assertions is that they are anecdotal in nature. That makes the assertion opinion, not fact. For the assertion to be fact, those making the assertion would have to assume the burden of proof. That's vanishingly unlikely.
One problem, as with many issues, is that people assume their opinion is correct, For the most part, people have an investment in being right. So, their opinion is obviously right, to them. As a result, no argument is likely to remove meter blame, just as no argument is likely to sway meter defenders. It may look like that's what's being attempted, and people may think that's what they're trying to do. What's really happening, though , is that people are trying to build agreement for their opinion as a means of convincing ANet to intervene or not intervene.
What I find sad is that should the meter hate succeed in convincing ANet, it will not be because facts have been gathered. No one is going to demonstrate that a meter is the prime cause, rather than the latest in a long line of justifications. No one is going to demonstrate that things would be rosy for those wanting all groups to be everything goes. No, if ANet acts, it will be because ANet decided they needed to act to reduce negative publicity which can and does affect their bottom line. If that happens, exclusion will continue with a different justification.

result.

Thers a simple saying 'theres no smoke without fire' and there is plenty of smoke. If I was a designer I would remove it because it does cause grief - we all know this over many many years of mmorpg experience, and WOW is a prime example of how badly it can go wrong, and quite frankly GW2 does not need a meter + the majoirty dont use meters. The only people who lose out are the minority meter users, and im assuming they have the skill to adapt without a meter!

"It" doesn't cause grief. For the last time, I submit to you that the DPS meter displays objective data. Nothing more, nothing less. It does not force someone to behave in a toxic way. They

will

do that anyway, just as often, with or without the DPS meter.

But at this point, it has become readily apparent that neither you nor those so adamantly opposed to the DPS meter will listen to reason. We are simply running in circles. Nothing constructive is manifesting from this so I bid you farewell.

A meter is not objective if it does not give a complete picture - does it measure players intent? does it measure players altrustic decisions? no they do not. objectivity is also based on the observer. You are also wrong that meters dont cause issues, human behaviour changes when observed. Human behaviour can also change as a result of confirmation bias - fed by tools that are specifically designed to compare player performance.

il ask this to people who support meters, does it measure players intent and does it measure players altrustic decision making? Because that's what great gameplay is about, not that you can pump out big numbers.

Meters are purely objective, since feelings, intent etc are what biased opinions are based on. Meters provide pure unbiased highly objective data that encompass every aspect of the encounters that are measurable and are facts of the situation they are used in, nothing more nothing less.

So if player X fails to do Value Y of Role Z, when Value Y is the bare minimum required of that role in that encounter and a decision is made off of that information how is that not purely objective looking at the facts since all Combat Data is conveyed in the Meter not just partial aspects.

16 pages later and it has been explain 16 times more. Your explanation doesn't change anything or convince me or some otherwise.Many of us have been there, done that, and do not want to be subjected to this style of game play or mentality.We already have enough MMOs on the market that cater to your needs.

Whether my DPS is good or not, I simply do not care or want to know about it.

Makai.3429 · September 21, 2017

@Rhanoa.3960 said:
@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:
@Fuzdom.6493 said:Ban all 3rd party apps!
Ban repeated offender accounts after 2 in-game cross server email warnings.
That or allow all 3rd party apps.
@vesica tempestas.1563 said:
@Dante.1763 said:
@vesica tempestas.1563 said:
@Dante.1763 said:
@vesica tempestas.1563 said:
@IndigoSundown.5419 said:Any perusal of the old forums will find myriad discussions about exclusion. Unless people want to bury their heads in the sand, it should be a given that GW2 has almost since launch had exclusion based on player preferences for playing a certain way. In GW2 forums, many of those discussions include references to criteria used as justification to exclude. Those criteria include AP, gear pings, certain professions only, and since raids appeared, LI. This phenomenon can be tracked back to other MMO's as well, should one want to.
The OP and others assert that exclusion issues have significantly worsened, and that the cause of this dramatic increase has been the use of a damage meter. The problem with these assertions is that they are anecdotal in nature. That makes the assertion opinion, not fact. For the assertion to be fact, those making the assertion would have to assume the burden of proof. That's vanishingly unlikely.
One problem, as with many issues, is that people assume their opinion is correct, For the most part, people have an investment in being right. So, their opinion is obviously right, to them. As a result, no argument is likely to remove meter blame, just as no argument is likely to sway meter defenders. It may look like that's what's being attempted, and people may think that's what they're trying to do. What's really happening, though , is that people are trying to build agreement for their opinion as a means of convincing ANet to intervene or not intervene.
What I find sad is that should the meter hate succeed in convincing ANet, it will not be because facts have been gathered. No one is going to demonstrate that a meter is the prime cause, rather than the latest in a long line of justifications. No one is going to demonstrate that things would be rosy for those wanting all groups to be everything goes. No, if ANet acts, it will be because ANet decided they needed to act to reduce negative publicity which can and does affect their bottom line. If that happens, exclusion will continue with a different justification.

result.

Thers a simple saying 'theres no smoke without fire' and there is plenty of smoke. If I was a designer I would remove it because it does cause grief - we all know this over many many years of mmorpg experience, and WOW is a prime example of how badly it can go wrong, and quite frankly GW2 does not need a meter + the majoirty dont use meters. The only people who lose out are the minority meter users, and im assuming they have the skill to adapt without a meter!

Theres plenty of smoke from the same two or three people, and my question is how do you know the population of people using DPS meters? You might be surprised by the number of people who actually use them.

Do you really think that do you?

ANDId rather be kicked for having low DPS than for simply playing a class, which was a much larger problem than it is now, and a way bigger problem than a DPS meter ever will be.

or not be kicked for either right.Yes i do, i see the same two or three people posting against DPS meters, the same 2 or three people arguing with you, and random people saying they dont care about having it in game.Except, i used to get kicked from the vast majority of dungeon groups for playing a ranger. They used to be seen as the worst class and thus werent welcome, and this is

DUNGEONS

if we didnt have a DPS meter to show we where moderately usable, wed never get to do any content outside of if we played Druid. Necros would be in this group too, and i think engineers as well.

@Wolfheart.7483 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:
@IndigoSundown.5419 said:Any perusal of the old forums will find myriad discussions about exclusion. Unless people want to bury their heads in the sand, it should be a given that GW2 has almost since launch had exclusion based on player preferences for playing a certain way. In GW2 forums, many of those discussions include references to criteria used as justification to exclude. Those criteria include AP, gear pings, certain professions only, and since raids appeared, LI. This phenomenon can be tracked back to other MMO's as well, should one want to.
The OP and others assert that exclusion issues have significantly worsened, and that the cause of this dramatic increase has been the use of a damage meter. The problem with these assertions is that they are anecdotal in nature. That makes the assertion opinion, not fact. For the assertion to be fact, those making the assertion would have to assume the burden of proof. That's vanishingly unlikely.
One problem, as with many issues, is that people assume their opinion is correct, For the most part, people have an investment in being right. So, their opinion is obviously right, to them. As a result, no argument is likely to remove meter blame, just as no argument is likely to sway meter defenders. It may look like that's what's being attempted, and people may think that's what they're trying to do. What's really happening, though , is that people are trying to build agreement for their opinion as a means of convincing ANet to intervene or not intervene.
What I find sad is that should the meter hate succeed in convincing ANet, it will not be because facts have been gathered. No one is going to demonstrate that a meter is the prime cause, rather than the latest in a long line of justifications. No one is going to demonstrate that things would be rosy for those wanting all groups to be everything goes. No, if ANet acts, it will be because ANet decided they needed to act to reduce negative publicity which can and does affect their bottom line. If that happens, exclusion will continue with a different justification.

result.

Thers a simple saying 'theres no smoke without fire' and there is plenty of smoke. If I was a designer I would remove it because it does cause grief - we all know this over many many years of mmorpg experience, and WOW is a prime example of how badly it can go wrong, and quite frankly GW2 does not need a meter + the majoirty dont use meters. The only people who lose out are the minority meter users, and im assuming they have the skill to adapt without a meter!

"It" doesn't cause grief. For the last time, I submit to you that the DPS meter displays objective data. Nothing more, nothing less. It does not force someone to behave in a toxic way. They

will

do that anyway, just as often, with or without the DPS meter.

But at this point, it has become readily apparent that neither you nor those so adamantly opposed to the DPS meter will listen to reason. We are simply running in circles. Nothing constructive is manifesting from this so I bid you farewell.

A meter is not objective if it does not give a complete picture - does it measure players intent? does it measure players altrustic decisions? no they do not. objectivity is also based on the observer. You are also wrong that meters dont cause issues, human behaviour changes when observed. Human behaviour can also change as a result of confirmation bias - fed by tools that are specifically designed to compare player performance.

il ask this to people who support meters, does it measure players intent and does it measure players altrustic decision making? Because that's what great gameplay is about, not that you can pump out big numbers.

Meters are purely objective, since feelings, intent etc are what biased opinions are based on. Meters provide pure unbiased highly objective data that encompass every aspect of the encounters that are measurable and are facts of the situation they are used in, nothing more nothing less.

So if player X fails to do Value Y of Role Z, when Value Y is the bare minimum required of that role in that encounter and a decision is made off of that information how is that not purely objective looking at the facts since all Combat Data is conveyed in the Meter not just partial aspects.

16 pages later and it has been explain 16 times more. Your explanation doesn't change anything or convince me or some otherwise.Many of us have been there, done that, and do not want to be

subjected

to this style of game play or mentality.We already have enough MMOs on the market that cater to your needs.

Whether my DPS is good or not, I simply do not care or want to know about it.

Emphasis on subjected. Thank you. Group content is stressful enough without having to worry about being monitored like a hawk.

Rhanoa.3960 · September 21, 2017

@VaaCrow.3076 said:
@Rhanoa.3960 said:I suggest removing combat log altogether as it would end this discussion with the Nail in the coffin.

You are hilarious. You seem to want to remove all of the tools, both 3rd party and designed by Anet that allow a player to learn from mistakes and improve their game play.Combat log is a supremely useful tool, that can help you better learn how to play the game. It seems to me that you just don't believe in self improvement, and that is fine, yo do you, we always need a worst case scenario to draw inspiration from.

I am a funny thank you for noticing!I don't want to be Supremely!I am all about always room for improvement, but I don't play VIDEOGAMES for self improvement.

Inspiration? Really? I'm a Daredevil swatting my enemies with a staff and evading their attacks!

BlaqueFyre.5678 · September 21, 2017