I hate what DPS meters have done to PVE endgame...

[IndigoSundown.5419]

@Rhanoa.3960 said:

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:

@"vesica tempestas.1563" said:Thers a simple saying 'theres no smoke without fire' and there is plenty of smoke. If I was a designer I would remove it because it does cause grief - we all know this over many many years of mmorpg experience, and WOW is a prime example of how badly it can go wrong, and quite frankly GW2 does not need a meter + the majoirty dont use meters. The only people who lose out are the minority meter users, and im assuming they have the skill to adapt without a meter!

People complain. It's what we do in any situation where we don't get something we want or think we deserve.

One problem with ANet addressing complaints is that a lot of people are really bad at analyzing problems. Assuming that the reasons proffered by such people need to be addressed can and have led to developers changing things that will not address the real cause of the peoples' problems. So, no. While we can assume that some players are having a problem (exclusion), we cannot assume that the source of the problem is what the complainers believe it to be.

In this post, you are engaging in appeals to presumed numbers to support your opinion, such as "We all know..." and "majority. Thing is, we don't know. What we do know is that references to meters have been made in situations where people got unhappy about not getting what they wanted. The short history of GW2 offers ample proof that exclusion is not tied to meters, hence meters don't cause exclusion. Those who claim meters increase exclusion are flying in the face of the history of GW2, and thus the burden of proof lies on those making such claims.

There is zero evidence that the majority of players care one way or the other about meters or instanced content. So, there is one minority that wants meters and another that wants them gone. The meter hate group on these boards is small. The group that uses meters is undoubtedly bigger, and if the largest group doesn't care, well, your majority claim is not relevant.

I love what you did here shooting from the waste down claiming that it is nothing more than an entitlement issue which is far from

I DON'T WANT TO KNOW YOUR BUSINESS OR MINE!

There is a huge difference, but I will give you a thumbs up for bring in a new perspective.

This thread is entirely about an entitlement issue. One group, A, thinks they are entitled to play with people who have similar goals and desires. Another group, B, thinks they are entitled to play with the people from A, even though the B's don't want to play the same way the A's do.

As to not wanting others to know your numbers (I assume that's what the all-caps is about), I believe you only give up your numerical privacy if you choose to group with people who want to have their group's numbers available. Regardless, since the thread is about instanced endgame content, if you don't join a group and go into "their" instance, they won't see your numbers. It's the same issue, just spun differently.

[Eponet.4829]

In my experience, the whole "DPS should be your #1 priority" mentality is just annoying, It's everywhere, but the place that it's worst I've found is the Vale Guardian.

You can tell people that it's really not a very hard DPS check, and that they should prioritise not getting everyone killed, but people will still stay on the boss as long as they can, and then end up getting everyone killed just to eke out that tiny bit of DPS that we didn't even need. in exchange for getting people downed. I can compensate a little when I play a mesmer, but that still only protects some of the group, and lag spikes do happen.

Sometimes it's a focus, but in almost every encounter, timers are forgiving enough that personal damage should be considered secondary at best, and the whole culture of measuring DPS where it really isn't needed is causing people to focus on that over the absolutely vital things.

[Rhanoa.3960]

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:

@Rhanoa.3960 said:

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:

@"vesica tempestas.1563" said:Thers a simple saying 'theres no smoke without fire' and there is plenty of smoke. If I was a designer I would remove it because it does cause grief - we all know this over many many years of mmorpg experience, and WOW is a prime example of how badly it can go wrong, and quite frankly GW2 does not need a meter + the majoirty dont use meters. The only people who lose out are the minority meter users, and im assuming they have the skill to adapt without a meter!

People complain. It's what we do in any situation where we don't get something we want or think we deserve.

One problem with ANet addressing complaints is that a lot of people are really bad at analyzing problems. Assuming that the reasons proffered by such people need to be addressed can and have led to developers changing things that will not address the real cause of the peoples' problems. So, no. While we can assume that some players are having a problem (exclusion), we cannot assume that the source of the problem is what the complainers believe it to be.

In this post, you are engaging in appeals to presumed numbers to support your opinion, such as "We all know..." and "majority. Thing is, we don't know. What we do know is that references to meters have been made in situations where people got unhappy about not getting what they wanted. The short history of GW2 offers ample proof that exclusion is not tied to meters, hence meters don't cause exclusion. Those who claim meters increase exclusion are flying in the face of the history of GW2, and thus the burden of proof lies on those making such claims.

There is zero evidence that the majority of players care one way or the other about meters or instanced content. So, there is one minority that wants meters and another that wants them gone. The meter hate group on these boards is small. The group that uses meters is undoubtedly bigger, and if the largest group doesn't care, well, your majority claim is not relevant.

I love what you did here shooting from the waste down claiming that it is nothing more than an entitlement issue which is far from

I DON'T WANT TO KNOW YOUR BUSINESS OR MINE!

There is a huge difference, but I will give you a thumbs up for bring in a new perspective.

This thread is entirely about an entitlement issue. One group, A, thinks they are entitled to play with people who have similar goals and desires. Another group, B, thinks they are entitled to play with the people from A, even though the B's don't want to play the same way the A's do.

As to not wanting others to know your numbers (I assume that's what the all-caps is about), I believe you only give up your numerical privacy if you choose to group with people who want to have their group's numbers available. Regardless, since the thread is about instanced endgame content, if you don't join a group and go into "their" instance, they won't see your numbers. It's the same issue, just spun differently.If all else fails whip out the

Entitlement Punch Card

which comes with perks and rewards, maybe a $5 dollar savings after 9 excuses.

[Rhanoa.3960]

@Eponet.4829 said:In my experience, the whole "DPS should be your #1 priority" mentality is just annoying, It's everywhere, but the place that it's worst I've found is the Vale Guardian.

You can tell people that it's really not a very hard DPS check, and that they should prioritise not getting everyone killed, but people will still stay on the boss as long as they can, and then end up getting everyone killed just to eke out that tiny bit of DPS that we didn't even need. in exchange for getting people downed. I can compensate a little when I play a mesmer, but that still only protects some of the group, and lag spikes do happen.

Sometimes it's a focus, but in almost every encounter, timers are forgiving enough that personal damage should be considered secondary at best, and the whole culture of measuring DPS where it really isn't needed is causing people to focus on that over the absolutely vital things.

Mechanics over DPS is frowned upon by a group of extraordinary people who specialize in showing graphs, numbers, and ranks.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

@Rhanoa.3960 said:

@Eponet.4829 said:In my experience, the whole "DPS should be your #1 priority" mentality is just annoying, It's everywhere, but the place that it's worst I've found is the Vale Guardian.

You can tell people that it's really not a very hard DPS check, and that they should prioritise not getting everyone killed, but people will still stay on the boss as long as they can, and then end up getting everyone killed just to eke out that tiny bit of DPS that we didn't even need. in exchange for getting people downed. I can compensate a little when I play a mesmer, but that still only protects some of the group, and lag spikes do happen.

Sometimes it's a focus, but in almost every encounter, timers are forgiving enough that personal damage should be considered secondary at best, and the whole culture of measuring DPS where it really isn't needed is causing people to focus on that over the absolutely vital things.

Mechanics over DPS is frowned upon by a group of extraordinary people who specialize in showing graphs, numbers, and ranks.

Not so much, most players Raiding focus on mechanics since the actual dps needes is really low, and most Raids attempts fail due to failing mechanics and not dps, and guess what Arc shows when mechanics are failed and by who failed them, and that's why player accountability and roles are a thing. It's not all about dps, and players assigned to mechanics and are dps roles are normally known by the raid leader since they assign the role each person plays in Raids and those players probably won't get kicked if they are doing their role but have iffy dps.

[STIHL.2489]

Anyone but me laughing their ass off at anyone who tries to take this game seriously?

I mean, I could understand some level of being serious and hard core about this game during the rise and even the fall of PvP E-Sport, because there was something real to be obtained. Not to mention that PvP is inherently competitive, so, it beings that out in people. I fully get that.

But when it comes to PvE, I simply don't get this mentality of turning a game into work. Maybe there is something these people gain by making a huge deal out of an inconsequential hobby, but, I don't get it, and I never will. Again, not trying to be rude here, but truth be told, I don't want to join your groups, or be in your guilds, or even play with you at all if you're the kind of person that seeks to suck the fun out of a game and make it into a job, and feels that putting down other people for wanting to enjoy a silly little online game is acceptable. Really, nothing you ever accomplish or any loot you get in this game will make you a better person, how you treat people will.

For those that make it clear they are Kill-Joy/Elitist, thank you, it's been a pleasure not grouping with you, please keep up the good work with the LFM's clearly staying that I won't enjoy my time with you.

[SntMighty.9406]

@Jarvis.9540 said:Tonight in a t4 fractal PUG I got yelled at for temporarily attuning to water on my meta zerker elementalist (a build I've begrudgingly acquiesced into playing after seeing the party finder messages aimed at keeping my necro main from participating) after 3 of my 5 party members died, and I attempted to heal and rez everyone. I was sternly advised that my tempest is supposed to always be in fire or air. Weird. The main thing I liked about ele is its versatility and ability to hop into defense and save a party as needed. Apparently one of my party members was running "arc dps" (previously unknown to me - a tool that can show every party member's dps to each other) and saw that my dps dropped below his dead body's average numbers because he bursted the fight (ignoring mechanics) right up until he died while I tried to clean everyone up. It's a strange thing to be yelled at by a person that you are trying to save/rez because your dps numbers are dwindling while doing so.

This is my umpteenth night in a row dealing with folks shouting at each other (even if it's not always directed at me) over parsed dps numbers in higher-level fractals. I'm really tired of it.

Well you see u actually do need to attune to air as well also you shouldn't take anyone seriously who wipes on the fractals, even without a dps meter the guy woulda been toxic to you in another way. You can either just get yourself a consistent group of friends or as i usually do it go to a chat channel where i have all except whispers muted so the guy can rage for himself.

[sigur.9453]

@Haishao.6851 said:Maybe anet could add a little tag on the LFG announcement like the language flags that says META. So it's clear and people can avoid joining them and get kicked.

That is actually a very good idea.As far as i can see a lot of that "toxic behaviour" on both sides could be avoided by making it more "clear" which kind of people are advertising on LFG

[Koyomi.1378]

People really do think they're entitled to being carried, the must not realize how useless they usually are in fractals or raids.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Rhanoa.3960 said:If all else fails whip out the Entitlement Punch Card which comes with perks and rewards, maybe a $5 dollar savings after 9 excuses.

But he is right, this is all an entitlement issue, otherwise threads like this wouldn't exist.It boils down to this: "I play this game just for fun, why not everyone else does the same?"Which has the simple answer: "Different people find different things fun".Maybe once you accept that not everyone thinks like you, and that they shouldn't think like you anyway, you can move on.Play with players that think like you and those who don't think like you can play with each other.Why is this so hard to understand? Why do you want everyone else to change their idea of fun to match yours? Who are you to define what's fun and what''s not?

[Makai.3429]

@STIHL.2489 said:Anyone but me laughing their kitten off at anyone who tries to take this game seriously?

I mean, I could understand some level of being serious and hard core about this game during the rise and even the fall of PvP E-Sport, because there was something real to be obtained. Not to mention that PvP is inherently competitive, so, it beings that out in people. I fully get that.

But when it comes to PvE, I simply don't get this mentality of turning a game into work. Maybe there is something these people gain by making a huge deal out of an inconsequential hobby, but, I don't get it, and I never will. Again, not trying to be rude here, but truth be told, I don't want to join your groups, or be in your guilds, or even play with you at all if you're the kind of person that seeks to kitten the fun out of a game and make it into a job, and feels that putting down other people for wanting to enjoy a silly little online game is acceptable. Really, nothing you ever accomplish or any loot you get in this game will make you a better person, how you treat people will.

For those that make it clear they are Kill-Joy/Elitist, thank you, it's been a pleasure not grouping with you, please keep up the good work with the LFM's clearly staying that I won't enjoy my time with you.

Thanks, Stihl. A little compassion goes a long way. You really turned this depressing evening around for me. I appreciate. it; and if you bought PoF, I hope you have fun with it.

[maddoctor.2738]

@STIHL.2489 said:But when it comes to PvE, I simply don't get this mentality of turning a game into work.

It's actually fun, not work. It's fun coming up with good builds to deal with specific encounters. It's like solving a puzzle. Why do people solve puzzles I wonder?I really don't get this mentality of some, wanting to change how others play the game, it's none of your business.You don't like that mentality, don't play with those that have that mentality. It's rather simple. Yet what we see here is an attempt to change how others think, an attempt to force your "play just for fun" mentality on others. And then call the others "toxic". What's the problem? Can't find groups that match your idea of fun?

[Feanor.2358]

@STIHL.2489 said:Anyone but me laughing their kitten off at anyone who tries to take this game seriously?

I mean, I could understand some level of being serious and hard core about this game during the rise and even the fall of PvP E-Sport, because there was something real to be obtained. Not to mention that PvP is inherently competitive, so, it beings that out in people. I fully get that.

But when it comes to PvE, I simply don't get this mentality of turning a game into work. Maybe there is something these people gain by making a huge deal out of an inconsequential hobby, but, I don't get it, and I never will. Again, not trying to be rude here, but truth be told, I don't want to join your groups, or be in your guilds, or even play with you at all if you're the kind of person that seeks to kitten the fun out of a game and make it into a job, and feels that putting down other people for wanting to enjoy a silly little online game is acceptable. Really, nothing you ever accomplish or any loot you get in this game will make you a better person, how you treat people will.

For those that make it clear they are Kill-Joy/Elitist, thank you, it's been a pleasure not grouping with you, please keep up the good work with the LFM's clearly staying that I won't enjoy my time with you.

I guess you have to experience it to understand it. In the end, it's not turning it into a job, quite the contrary - it's about having fun. The fun of not getting players downed all the time, the fun of the team working together and making the challenge seem trivial. It's not that I take the game too seriously, it's that I simply do not want the unnecessary struggle anymore. I've been there, I've played like that. Then I've seen the other side and I liked it better.

And while I'm on it, let me rebuke the illusion that meters somehow give extra reasons for elitism.

An experienced group will know there's a problem by the simple fact the run isn't going as smooth as they're used to. This is easily observable. Players getting downed? There's a problem somewhere. Poor boon uptime? There's a problem somewhere. Failing mechanics? There's a problem somewhere. Boss takes longer to die than expected? There's a problem somewhere. Note the actual dps is only an indication. Consequently, the dps meters are only indicators. They don't give an extra reason, they help to pin down an already existing reason/issue.

The problem is always the same - players who aren't pulling their own weight in the same way the experienced players are used to. This is the precise reason for elitism. By being there and not doing what they expect of you, you're ruining their fun. It is only normal they get annoyed and react to this. It has happened before, it happens now, it will always happen. It's just a matter of expectations and not meeting them. There will always be expectations and as long as player skills differ, there will always be expectations which aren't met.

Now I totally understand not everyone enjoys the same things or for the same reasons. Everyone's entitled to their own tastes and that's only normal. My advice to the "play my way" people is - keep doing that folks, just use LFG properly and avoid the meta parties. They are easy to spot. They usually list the classes and roles they want in their party. Even if you have a character to fill that role, if you don't have that mindset, you'd better avoid them and create your own party.

[Makai.3429]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:But when it comes to PvE, I simply don't get this mentality of turning a game into work.

It's actually fun, not work. It's fun coming up with good builds to deal with specific encounters. It's like solving a puzzle. Why do people solve puzzles I wonder?I really don't get this mentality of some, wanting to change how others play the game, it's none of your business.You don't like that mentality, don't play with those that have that mentality. It's rather simple. Yet what we see here is an attempt to change how others think, an attempt to force your "play just for fun" mentality on others. And then call the others "toxic". What's the problem? Can't find groups that match your idea of fun?

Name calling and put downs is a two-way street between these two groups, as he illustrated. For every toxic elitist slam there's a l2pgitgud insult.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Makai.3429 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:But when it comes to PvE, I simply don't get this mentality of turning a game into work.

It's actually fun, not work. It's fun coming up with good builds to deal with specific encounters. It's like solving a puzzle. Why do people solve puzzles I wonder?I really don't get this mentality of some, wanting to change how others play the game, it's none of your business.You don't like that mentality, don't play with those that have that mentality. It's rather simple. Yet what we see here is an attempt to change how others think, an attempt to force your "play just for fun" mentality on others. And then call the others "toxic". What's the problem? Can't find groups that match your idea of fun?

Name calling and put downs is a two-way street between these two groups, as he illustrated. For every toxic elitist there's a l2pgitgud barker out there.

So those groups can simply not play with each other. Problem solved.And I ask again: What's the problem? Can't find groups that match your idea of fun?Is that why you want others to change their idea of fun to match yours?

[Makai.3429]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Makai.3429 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:But when it comes to PvE, I simply don't get this mentality of turning a game into work.

It's actually fun, not work. It's fun coming up with good builds to deal with specific encounters. It's like solving a puzzle. Why do people solve puzzles I wonder?I really don't get this mentality of some, wanting to change how others play the game, it's none of your business.You don't like that mentality, don't play with those that have that mentality. It's rather simple. Yet what we see here is an attempt to change how others think, an attempt to force your "play just for fun" mentality on others. And then call the others "toxic". What's the problem? Can't find groups that match your idea of fun?

Name calling and put downs is a two-way street between these two groups, as he illustrated. For every toxic elitist there's a l2pgitgud barker out there.

So those groups can simply not play with each other. Problem solved.And I ask again: What's the problem? Can't find groups that match your idea of fun?Is that why you want others to change their idea of fun to match yours?

No. I just want elitists to stop bullying me and people like me.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Makai.3429 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Makai.3429 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:But when it comes to PvE, I simply don't get this mentality of turning a game into work.

It's actually fun, not work. It's fun coming up with good builds to deal with specific encounters. It's like solving a puzzle. Why do people solve puzzles I wonder?I really don't get this mentality of some, wanting to change how others play the game, it's none of your business.You don't like that mentality, don't play with those that have that mentality. It's rather simple. Yet what we see here is an attempt to change how others think, an attempt to force your "play just for fun" mentality on others. And then call the others "toxic". What's the problem? Can't find groups that match your idea of fun?

Name calling and put downs is a two-way street between these two groups, as he illustrated. For every toxic elitist there's a l2pgitgud barker out there.

So those groups can simply not play with each other. Problem solved.And I ask again: What's the problem? Can't find groups that match your idea of fun?Is that why you want others to change their idea of fun to match yours?

No. I just want elitists to stop bullying me.

Then don't play with elitists. This was already said multiple times since Page 1And besides, those elitists who "bully" you would bully you even without dps-meters anyway.

[Makai.3429]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Makai.3429 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Makai.3429 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:But when it comes to PvE, I simply don't get this mentality of turning a game into work.

It's actually fun, not work. It's fun coming up with good builds to deal with specific encounters. It's like solving a puzzle. Why do people solve puzzles I wonder?I really don't get this mentality of some, wanting to change how others play the game, it's none of your business.You don't like that mentality, don't play with those that have that mentality. It's rather simple. Yet what we see here is an attempt to change how others think, an attempt to force your "play just for fun" mentality on others. And then call the others "toxic". What's the problem? Can't find groups that match your idea of fun?

Name calling and put downs is a two-way street between these two groups, as he illustrated. For every toxic elitist there's a l2pgitgud barker out there.

So those groups can simply not play with each other. Problem solved.And I ask again: What's the problem? Can't find groups that match your idea of fun?Is that why you want others to change their idea of fun to match yours?

No. I just want elitists to stop bullying me.

Then don't play with elitists. This was already said multiple times since Page 1And besides, those elitists who "bully" you would bully you even without dps-meters anyway.

I don't even have to play the game to experience it or see it happen to others who aren't pros. It happens all the time in the forums, and will unquestionably happen with PoF content. I don't know why I have to justify asking people to treat each other with kindness.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Makai.3429 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Makai.3429 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Makai.3429 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:But when it comes to PvE, I simply don't get this mentality of turning a game into work.

It's actually fun, not work. It's fun coming up with good builds to deal with specific encounters. It's like solving a puzzle. Why do people solve puzzles I wonder?I really don't get this mentality of some, wanting to change how others play the game, it's none of your business.You don't like that mentality, don't play with those that have that mentality. It's rather simple. Yet what we see here is an attempt to change how others think, an attempt to force your "play just for fun" mentality on others. And then call the others "toxic". What's the problem? Can't find groups that match your idea of fun?

Name calling and put downs is a two-way street between these two groups, as he illustrated. For every toxic elitist there's a l2pgitgud barker out there.

So those groups can simply not play with each other. Problem solved.And I ask again: What's the problem? Can't find groups that match your idea of fun?Is that why you want others to change their idea of fun to match yours?

No. I just want elitists to stop bullying me.

Then don't play with elitists. This was already said multiple times since Page 1And besides, those elitists who "bully" you would bully you even without dps-meters anyway.

I don't even have to play the game to experience it or see it happen to others who aren't pros. It happens all the time in the forums, and will unquestionably happen with PoF content. I don't know why I have to justify asking people to treat each other with kindness.

It's simple,a) don't play with elitists, don't join their experienced/meta groups if you do not have the same mentality as they do, meaning you won't even be affected by dps-metersb) rude persons existed long before dps-meters, meaning it doesn't matter if they exist or not to face rude people.

In both cases this isn't a problem of a meter and won't go away if you take the meter away.

[Haishao.6851]

@Rhanoa.3960 said:

@Haishao.6851 said:Blaming DPS meter because you cannot get into end game group is like blaming your bathroom scale because you cannot get into a sport team.

@Lillium.6481 said:Also, this game, like GW1, was supposed to have build variety. I enjoy experimenting, and MANY of the meta builds are significantly less fun than slightly lesser alternatives that can still get the job done.

This game, like GW1, does have build variety. You can play a rifle warrior or a pistol engi if you want. But like a firestorm warrior or a longbow necro in GW1, it's bad.

GW1, like this game have what we called then "elite missions" UW, FoE, TopK, Urgoz Warren, The Deep, DoA were all end game content where specific builds were demanded by the community. You could make your own group that didn't require them, exactly like you can do in GW2.

The issue now is that you're allowed to invite yourself in group that don't want you. So they kick you out.The game is made that way and we have to deal with it.

Maybe anet could add a little tag on the LFG announcement like the language flags that says META. So it's clear and people can avoid joining them and get kicked.

Good grief!

The same can be said about why you have a friends list and up 5 guilds to join

so you have the option

of not listing yourself in LFG.

I imagine with your celebrity status you can easily muster up a good group of your friends whom you can bicker, brag, and measuring each other out.Just stop making excuses, you're just as much responsible for advertising it.

Also, the bathroom scale is pretty lame and insensitive thing to say, I know folks who suffer from overactive thyroid and weight gain.It also insinuates you cannot account for other conditions that may hinder someone's active lifestyle.

Sorry for the delayed reply, I held an autograph signing session after spending the night not being kicked out of groups. No one showed up though.

Sure, we have the option not to list a group in the lfg, but we also have the option to do so and having that option doesn't mean people are obligated to keep you in their group if they don't want to. Kicking is also an option we have in the game. To remove trouble and/or troubled people from groups. 3 out of the 4 other people in a group of 5 have to vote to kick someone.

If it's insensitive to tell the truth, then so be it.Bathroom scale do nothing else than give you knowledge about your current weight when you step on it.The people you know suffer from overactive thyroid, not overactive bathroom scale. I'm sorry for their condition, but it doesn't change the fact that a scale is not responsible for it.

I'm not a native english speaker and it's late so I don't really understand the sense of your last sentence but I think you mean I should be responsible for the disability of people? If so then you're very wrong. No one is responsible for your condition unless they're the one who caused it.If it's not what it meant, then sorry. But I will still hold you accountable of my disability of understanding that sentence properly.

Now, PoF release soon and I need sleep. Good night.

[Makai.3429]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Makai.3429 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Makai.3429 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Makai.3429 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:But when it comes to PvE, I simply don't get this mentality of turning a game into work.

It's actually fun, not work. It's fun coming up with good builds to deal with specific encounters. It's like solving a puzzle. Why do people solve puzzles I wonder?I really don't get this mentality of some, wanting to change how others play the game, it's none of your business.You don't like that mentality, don't play with those that have that mentality. It's rather simple. Yet what we see here is an attempt to change how others think, an attempt to force your "play just for fun" mentality on others. And then call the others "toxic". What's the problem? Can't find groups that match your idea of fun?

Name calling and put downs is a two-way street between these two groups, as he illustrated. For every toxic elitist there's a l2pgitgud barker out there.

So those groups can simply not play with each other. Problem solved.And I ask again: What's the problem? Can't find groups that match your idea of fun?Is that why you want others to change their idea of fun to match yours?

No. I just want elitists to stop bullying me.

Then don't play with elitists. This was already said multiple times since Page 1And besides, those elitists who "bully" you would bully you even without dps-meters anyway.

I don't even have to play the game to experience it or see it happen to others who aren't pros. It happens all the time in the forums, and will unquestionably happen with PoF content. I don't know why I have to justify asking people to treat each other with kindness.

It's simple,a) don't play with elitists, don't join their experienced/meta groups if you do not have the same mentality as they do, meaning you won't even be affected by dps-metersb) rude persons existed long before dps-meters, meaning it doesn't matter if they exist or not to face rude people.

In both cases this isn't a problem of a meter and won't go away if you take the meter away.

You're right. I should stop letting these negative people bring me down, and try to meet up with players who have empathy and compassion. It stings to see how awful people are treated in this game (and how so many try to rationalize or support cruelty), but I can try to amend these faults in my own way. I just wish I could be a mentor in this game like in GW1.

[Abakk.9176]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Makai.3429 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Makai.3429 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Makai.3429 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:But when it comes to PvE, I simply don't get this mentality of turning a game into work.

It's actually fun, not work. It's fun coming up with good builds to deal with specific encounters. It's like solving a puzzle. Why do people solve puzzles I wonder?I really don't get this mentality of some, wanting to change how others play the game, it's none of your business.You don't like that mentality, don't play with those that have that mentality. It's rather simple. Yet what we see here is an attempt to change how others think, an attempt to force your "play just for fun" mentality on others. And then call the others "toxic". What's the problem? Can't find groups that match your idea of fun?

Name calling and put downs is a two-way street between these two groups, as he illustrated. For every toxic elitist there's a l2pgitgud barker out there.

So those groups can simply not play with each other. Problem solved.And I ask again: What's the problem? Can't find groups that match your idea of fun?Is that why you want others to change their idea of fun to match yours?

No. I just want elitists to stop bullying me.

Then don't play with elitists. This was already said multiple times since Page 1And besides, those elitists who "bully" you would bully you even without dps-meters anyway.

I don't even have to play the game to experience it or see it happen to others who aren't pros. It happens all the time in the forums, and will unquestionably happen with PoF content. I don't know why I have to justify asking people to treat each other with kindness.

It's simple,a) don't play with elitists, don't join their experienced/meta groups if you do not have the same mentality as they do, meaning you won't even be affected by dps-metersb) rude persons existed long before dps-meters, meaning it doesn't matter if they exist or not to face rude people.

In both cases this isn't a problem of a meter and won't go away if you take the meter away.

It is indeed simple to say to people to gtfo if they don't fit your personal profile of perfection.

Saying that certain tools should remain despite them beeing misused because there wil always be rude people is saying that you will let bad behavior endure because you personally reap the benefits of said tools.

The 50 million dollar question in this is basically: Will you choose a minor inconvenience as a first step to better the atmosphere in the game OR will you choose for your own personal gain despite you knowing that you will make others suffer.

Because that is what this whole discussion boils down to.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Abakk.9176 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Makai.3429 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Makai.3429 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Makai.3429 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:But when it comes to PvE, I simply don't get this mentality of turning a game into work.

It's actually fun, not work. It's fun coming up with good builds to deal with specific encounters. It's like solving a puzzle. Why do people solve puzzles I wonder?I really don't get this mentality of some, wanting to change how others play the game, it's none of your business.You don't like that mentality, don't play with those that have that mentality. It's rather simple. Yet what we see here is an attempt to change how others think, an attempt to force your "play just for fun" mentality on others. And then call the others "toxic". What's the problem? Can't find groups that match your idea of fun?

Name calling and put downs is a two-way street between these two groups, as he illustrated. For every toxic elitist there's a l2pgitgud barker out there.

So those groups can simply not play with each other. Problem solved.And I ask again: What's the problem? Can't find groups that match your idea of fun?Is that why you want others to change their idea of fun to match yours?

No. I just want elitists to stop bullying me.

Then don't play with elitists. This was already said multiple times since Page 1And besides, those elitists who "bully" you would bully you even without dps-meters anyway.

I don't even have to play the game to experience it or see it happen to others who aren't pros. It happens all the time in the forums, and will unquestionably happen with PoF content. I don't know why I have to justify asking people to treat each other with kindness.

It's simple,a) don't play with elitists, don't join their experienced/meta groups if you do not have the same mentality as they do, meaning you won't even be affected by dps-metersb) rude persons existed long before dps-meters, meaning it doesn't matter if they exist or not to face rude people.

In both cases this isn't a problem of a meter and won't go away if you take the meter away.

It is indeed simple to say to people to gtfo if they don't fit your personal profile of perfection.

Saying that certain tools should remain despite them beeing misused because there wil always be rude people is saying that you will let bad behavior endure because you personally reap the benefits of said tools.

The 50 million dollar question in this is basically: Will you choose a minor inconvenience as a first step to better the atmosphere in the game OR will you choose for your own personal gain despite you knowing that you will make others suffer.

Because that is what this whole discussion boils down to.

The million dollar question is this basically: Why remove an invaluable tool from the game because some people cannot use common sense when picking their groups?Those who abuse players using a meter would abuse them anyway, and had been doing this since online gaming was first available.As for players "suffering", they can take a look at the mirror to find out why they are "suffering".

[Feanor.2358]

@Abakk.9176 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Makai.3429 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Makai.3429 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Makai.3429 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:But when it comes to PvE, I simply don't get this mentality of turning a game into work.

It's actually fun, not work. It's fun coming up with good builds to deal with specific encounters. It's like solving a puzzle. Why do people solve puzzles I wonder?I really don't get this mentality of some, wanting to change how others play the game, it's none of your business.You don't like that mentality, don't play with those that have that mentality. It's rather simple. Yet what we see here is an attempt to change how others think, an attempt to force your "play just for fun" mentality on others. And then call the others "toxic". What's the problem? Can't find groups that match your idea of fun?

Name calling and put downs is a two-way street between these two groups, as he illustrated. For every toxic elitist there's a l2pgitgud barker out there.

So those groups can simply not play with each other. Problem solved.And I ask again: What's the problem? Can't find groups that match your idea of fun?Is that why you want others to change their idea of fun to match yours?

No. I just want elitists to stop bullying me.

Then don't play with elitists. This was already said multiple times since Page 1And besides, those elitists who "bully" you would bully you even without dps-meters anyway.

I don't even have to play the game to experience it or see it happen to others who aren't pros. It happens all the time in the forums, and will unquestionably happen with PoF content. I don't know why I have to justify asking people to treat each other with kindness.

It's simple,a) don't play with elitists, don't join their experienced/meta groups if you do not have the same mentality as they do, meaning you won't even be affected by dps-metersb) rude persons existed long before dps-meters, meaning it doesn't matter if they exist or not to face rude people.

In both cases this isn't a problem of a meter and won't go away if you take the meter away.

It is indeed simple to say to people to gtfo if they don't fit your personal profile of perfection.

Saying that certain tools should remain despite them beeing misused because there wil always be rude people is saying that you will let bad behavior endure because you personally reap the benefits of said tools.

The 50 million dollar question in this is basically: Will you choose a minor inconvenience as a first step to better the atmosphere in the game OR will you choose for your own personal gain despite you knowing that you will make others suffer.

Because that is what this whole discussion boils down to.

Let me put it down bluntly, because you don't seem to understand the situation.

If you think spending one hour wiping on a fight that normally takes 5 minutes is a minor inconvenience, I have some news for you: it's not. It's a huge annoyance that takes away the fun from the game and there is nothing that requires me to put up with it. Nothing.

If you think without DPS meters I couldn't figure out the difference between a 5-minute kill and an hour of wiping, I have more news for you: I can. And it doesn't take a full hour of wiping, it takes a few wipes at most.

So it all boils down to a very simple choice: should I suffer for someone else's incompetence, or should I let him do it instead. I choose not to suffer, like any sane person would. Dps meters or not, if you don't fit in my idea of a party/squad, we won't be playing together, one way or another. Simple as that.

[Loosifah.4738]

If you're wiping for an hour on a boss you need to teach the people the fight better. The DPS meter isn't going to help you in that situation.