I hate what DPS meters have done to PVE endgame...

[Coconut.7082]

@Loosifah.4738 said:I'm looking down on the view that if you don't bring the EXACT build that everyone wants you to have you get booted from the party for content due to the inane standards the DPS meter tends to push. If you throw in a support skill for survival rather than a DPS skill to go pure glass cannon the build is somehow not acceptable.

Were those builds not pushed before DPS meters?

So you're looking down on your group's support players, saying they are not doing their job?

[sigur.9453]

@Loosifah.4738 said:I'm looking down on the view that if you don't bring the EXACT build that everyone wants you to have you get booted from the party for content due to the inane standards the DPS meter tends to push. If you throw in a support skill for survival rather than a DPS skill to go pure glass cannon the build is somehow not acceptable.

its called teamplay

[Syktek.7912]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Loosifah.4738 said:Yes because an MMO that's main selling point is "Play how you want" is all about being optimal.

Optimality is a matter of math. Your preferences do not change it. Whether you personally want to play optimally or not is another story, but keep in mind this is a multiplayer game. Hence the optimal setup isn't just one build, it's the whole party/squad. If you'll be advocating the "play your way" approach, it is only normal to accept players who want to play optimally. That's just their way. Trying to slap your suboptimal build onto them is not any different than them wanting you to run the optimal one. Both sides want their way. The only sensible thing is for one side to simply say "good bye" and leave, in particular it makes most sense to be the minority. So I don't get what all the fuss is about.

And not once have I stated I won't play with people who have suboptimal builds. I do. I do all the time. It's just that I know these people, I know what they're playing and it's easy to work around. I don't change my build, I put in a little more effort. Now do I have to do this? No, I don't, but I choose to because I'm not a jerk and a lot of other people are the same way. Just because I don't have to play with a lesser skilled player running some silly build doesn't mean I won't.

Most people simply don't care. A lot of people ghost run DPS meters for their own enjoyment. Even players who generally do poorly and it's a growing trend. Complaining about it is pointless. It doesn't affect the majority's experience.

[Feanor.2358]

@Loosifah.4738 said:I'm looking down on the view that if you don't bring the EXACT build that everyone wants you to have you get booted from the party for content due to the inane standards the DPS meter tends to push. If you throw in a support skill for survival rather than a DPS skill to go pure glass cannon the build is somehow not acceptable.

This is an exaggeration, and this mindset existed long before dps meters. People got booted for arbitrary stuff like AP count, different class/build, or LI. Getting booted for low dps at least is objective. Plus virtually nobody would kick you unless you're really terrible. Also note if you happen to be a support you can also get kicked if you're doing a poor job. And again, in the vast majority of cases it would be because you really were bad.

[Loosifah.4738]

I haven't personally been booted from any groups for the reasons I've listed. I'm just making the argument that the DPS meters pushing for the absolute most DPS you can bring being the only acceptable builds is a bit ridiculous.

As for the "So you're looking down on your groups support players" comment. No I am not; but with no real way to guarantee agro is held on enemies or the case where some bosses will just decide to attack a random player; having one support skill can save your life in a situation where you can't respawn until the fight is over or the team wipes.

Sometimes survivability > a little extra DPS.

[sigur.9453]

@Loosifah.4738 said:I haven't personally been booted from any groups for the reasons I've listed. I'm just making the argument that the DPS meters pushing for the absolute most DPS you can bring being the only acceptable builds is a bit ridiculous.

As for the "So you're looking down on your groups support players" comment. No I am not; but with no real way to guarantee agro is held on enemies or the case where some bosses will just decide to attack a random player; having one support skill can save your life in a situation where you can't respawn until the fight is over or the team wipes.

Sometimes survivability > a little extra DPS.

So what content are we talking about here?Clearly not Raids, also no Fractals because you would bring a healer for that.

SO why do you ned that survivability again?

[Syktek.7912]

And someone is blanket downvoting. This isn't Reddit. Your votes mean nothing. Hah!

@Loosifah.4738 said:I haven't personally been booted from any groups for the reasons I've listed. I'm just making the argument that the DPS meters pushing for the absolute most DPS you can bring being the only acceptable builds is a bit ridiculous.

As for the "So you're looking down on your groups support players" comment. No I am not; but with no real way to guarantee agro is held on enemies or the case where some bosses will just decide to attack a random player; having one support skill can save your life in a situation where you can't respawn until the fight is over or the team wipes.

Sometimes survivability > a little extra DPS.

Honestly? Not really. Extra survivability will only make T3 and T4 fractals harder (you still get two shot anyway). It lowers group DPS in raids. In oPvE, dungeons, story instances you can simply blow through everything on berserker stats without much thought.

[Coconut.7082]

@Loosifah.4738 said:I haven't personally been booted from any groups for the reasons I've listed.

Thank you, the argument is over.

[Fermi.2409]

Yeah, I'd you're doing everything right you don't need extra survivability from your build/gear, especially with a healer

[Abakk.9176]

@Syktek.7912 said:And someone is blanket downvoting. This isn't Reddit. Your votes mean nothing. Hah!

@Loosifah.4738 said:I haven't personally been booted from any groups for the reasons I've listed. I'm just making the argument that the DPS meters pushing for the absolute most DPS you can bring being the only acceptable builds is a bit ridiculous.

As for the "So you're looking down on your groups support players" comment. No I am not; but with no real way to guarantee agro is held on enemies or the case where some bosses will just decide to attack a random player; having one support skill can save your life in a situation where you can't respawn until the fight is over or the team wipes.

Sometimes survivability > a little extra DPS.

Honestly? Not really. Extra survivability will only make T3 and T4 fractals harder (you still get two shot anyway). It lowers group DPS in raids. In oPvE, dungeons, story instances you can simply blow through everything on berserker stats without much thought.

All the extra DPS squeezed out is solely for shortening any instance because "time is money, carrying, wasted time herp derp".

The problem is not people improving themselves. The problem is in the people they step on while relishing their twitch.

DSP-meters fine... but only your own stats and not others. It is bad enough people get discriminated based on their Profession.

[Loosifah.4738]

@Coconut.7082 said:

@Loosifah.4738 said:I haven't personally been booted from any groups for the reasons I've listed.

Thank you, the argument is over.

And why exactly does this have to be about my personal experience? The argument is about the environment that the DPS meter tends to produce. That being if you're not running a perfect build according to someone else's standards you don't deserve to do the content with them. It's the same as in other games where people kick you from raids for not a certain armor rating(regardless of whether you'll be the one taking the hits).

I understand your argument; but I'm trying to help express the counter point here.

[Feanor.2358]

@Abakk.9176 said:

@Syktek.7912 said:And someone is blanket downvoting. This isn't Reddit. Your votes mean nothing. Hah!

@Loosifah.4738 said:I haven't personally been booted from any groups for the reasons I've listed. I'm just making the argument that the DPS meters pushing for the absolute most DPS you can bring being the only acceptable builds is a bit ridiculous.

As for the "So you're looking down on your groups support players" comment. No I am not; but with no real way to guarantee agro is held on enemies or the case where some bosses will just decide to attack a random player; having one support skill can save your life in a situation where you can't respawn until the fight is over or the team wipes.

Sometimes survivability > a little extra DPS.

Honestly? Not really. Extra survivability will only make T3 and T4 fractals harder (you still get two shot anyway). It lowers group DPS in raids. In oPvE, dungeons, story instances you can simply blow through everything on berserker stats without much thought.

All the extra DPS squeezed out is solely for shortening any instance because "time is money, carrying, wasted time kitten kitten".

The problem is not people improving themselves. The problem is in the people they step on while relishing their twitch.

DSP-meters fine... but only your own stats and not others. It is bad enough people get discriminated based on their Profession.

Nope, it's to minimize mechanics, incoming damage and risk.

[Koyomi.1378]

Again people with their ridiculous ideas, a good build does a lot more than 1% more dps than whatever crap you're running and no people don't kick others for a 1% dps difference, arc itself is inaccurate by roughly 5%.

[Loosifah.4738]

@Koyomi.1378 said:Again people with their ridiculous ideas, a good build does a lot more than 1% more dps than whatever crap you're running and no people don't kick others for a 1% dps difference, arc itself is inaccurate by roughly 5%.

So you're saying that there's no 1 skill in your lineup that will add an extra 1% dps over a support skill in your rotation?And nobody kicks for a 1% dps difference? Have you not been paying attention to this thread at all? "If you're running a suboptimal build it's your fault you're being kicked" is the general consensus.

[sorudo.9054]

for what i see here is that the two camps wll never agree with each other, one camp wants the DPS meter all the time and the other hates the very idea of an DPS meter.

i think the only way to solve this is by making DPS less potent in raids/fractures and make them more tactical, DPS is still fine but less the focus.

[Koyomi.1378]

So you're saying that there's no 1 skill in your lineup that will add an extra 1% dps over a support skill in your rotation?

And nobody kicks for a 1% dps difference? Have you not been paying attention to this thread at all? "If you're running a suboptimal build it's your fault you're being kicked" is the general consensus.

I agree with the consensus, i'm just saying you can be a average player and do well if you use meta builds and rotations, thinking everyone expects qT skill level is retarded.

[Rennie.6750]

@Fermi.2409 said:

@Loosifah.4738 said:Because it's an absolute

MUST

to squeeze that extra 1% dps into your build so you can be the absolute best using the same cookie cutter build everyone else is.

So you're looking down on people for playing how they want and attempting to improve their own gameplay?

That's not the point. Using a dps meter to monitor your own performance is completely fine, but the only use for it i've seen in group content is whinning, drama and kick-fests. I've never been called out for bad dps mind you, but I did have to go through all the bs the tools bring, and imo it's a mistake to allow seeing other player's log when you can't inspect their gear. It should be both or none, or this is just a recipe for moaning and drama.

[Loosifah.4738]

I'm okay with the idea of a DPS meter for calculating the optimal BiS builds. It's a great way to figure out what a build can do.I'm less okay with the fact that if you're not running the BiS build due to some minor variation you're considered less deserving of a slot in a party because you value a little survivability over a slight dps boost. Support classes are great to have; but they're not always going to be able to handle every situation perfectly. Sometimes that extra barrier or healing ability can keep you from being a corpse that causes the party to wipe. So what if it takes an extra 30 seconds to down the boss.

[Abakk.9176]

@sorudo.9054 said:for what i see here is that the two camps wll never agree with each other, one camp wants the DPS meter all the time and the other hates the very idea of an DPS meter.

i think the only way to solve this is by making DPS less potent in raids/fractures and make them more tactical, DPS is still fine but less the focus.

DPS-meters that monitor your own numbers are fine. No reason to be against people that enjoy improving their playstyle.

But alas, some people want to be able to see what you do to prevent you from wasting their time.

[Spurnshadow.3678]

@Syktek.7912 said:

@Spurnshadow.3678 said:Raids are the worst of this. Here's a story. I joined a VG group. Was clearing the pre fight guardians on the first boss. I got kicked before even finishing. Why? My dps was too low according to the commander. Dude. I'm not trying that hard, don't have food or utility. Who gives a crap about maximum dps on these guys. Nope don't care. See ya.

Encounters like that are not uncommon in raids.

Oh no, you had one bad experience and we're all supposed to take your word for it. Better delete raids and DPS meters since they breed elitism. Your one bad experience and you expressing it is completely outnumbered by those who had no problems and ran without issue guaranteed. This is something I don't understand how people don't understand: Just because you had a bad experience doesn't automatically mean everyone else is fairing poorly and having their fun ruined by evil commanders spying on you with blasphemous DPS meters. It's a bad argument and statistics do not favor you.

I know this because of the amount of raid groups I've been with. The amount of new people and inexperienced people we ran through every raid wing. The amount of those people we did not kick (most of them, 90% of them, got to stay. The ones who got kicked were the ones who simply couldn't function or lied to use; liars got blacklisted). Out of all of those I only met one person genuinely upset, but they weren't removed for their DPS, they were removed because they were wasting our time with "Oh I'm setting up my build" /thirty minutes later. Only one person was ever kicked out of spite and that's because they were actively malicious towards several members. And this was across multiple guilds, not just one. I've been in several raid guilds.

My first raid guild picked me up out of the blue and taught me the ropes. While with my first raid group I was picked up by speed running guilds a few times and shown, by the best, how things are done. Free of charge. No mention of my DPS. No elitism. Genuinely fun people who were good at the game, using DPS meters and calling eachother out jokingly, didn't even mention my DPS (and it was terrible at the time as I was still learning).

But this isn't just me. I have 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 extra people I could encourage to come here and prove my point. The only people I can find that are mad about it are the a n g e r y people here on the forum (the whiny minority), the lady who was mad because she got kicked for wasting our time and that one kitten baby who cussed us out till we kicked him. Meanwhile you're going to have to go search for people or rely on the whiny minority.

Uh, what? It's not one bad experience. How on Earth do you get that from my post. Great reading comprehension. I said that my story is not uncommon. It's great that you have a raid group / guild. I don't. I have to pug my raids. I'm primarally a WvWer so I understand the importance of group comp, communication, working as a team. I've taken the time to optimize my gear to the proper builds just for raids on a few different characters. I've practiced the builds I run on the golem to get my dps to an acceptable place. I know the mechanics on most of the bosses and successfully clear them on a regular basis. But because I don't have a regular raid group like you do, I'm exposed to the scum of raids much more than you. Assholes with their omniscient dps meters think they're the end all be all of judgement and tout their superiority of knowledge over everyone else often.

I've been so turned off by the unwelcoming raid community in this game, I hardly ever try to find a group anymore. I haven't done a raid in months. Between the elitist idiots who want people to ping 250 LI for a VG pug run to the total gamble on jerks you might get (and arcDPS is part of this issue, again, I'm not against dps meters, just the way it's implemented in this game) to the non-existant friendly guilds who might do training runs ( I still haven't killed the sloth).

Luckily, a friend pointed me to a group that has set up a massive raid group with multiple levels of experience and regularly do training runs. I haven't done anything yet with them, but If I ever decide to get back into raids, I know they are there. Again, good for you for finding your group. Lots of us don't have that.

[sigur.9453]

@Loosifah.4738 said:I'm okay with the idea of a DPS meter for calculating the optimal BiS builds. It's a great way to figure out what a build can do.I'm less okay with the fact that if you're not running the BiS build due to some minor variation you're considered less deserving of a slot in a party because you value a little survivability over a slight dps boost. Support classes are great to have; but they're not always going to be able to handle every situation perfectly. Sometimes that extra barrier or healing ability can keep you from being a corpse that causes the party to wipe. So what if it takes an extra 30 seconds to down the boss.

You have depending on your class 2 or 3 dodges, some blocks, some evades, and a quite balanced (self)healing skill.That should be more than enought, most failed mechanic treat you with a health% penalty, so there would be no use either.

No need to be the best dps, but if a group is looking for that role, you should try to forfill it in the best possible way.Or at lease one can checkup with the group before the run start if for whatever reason it is ok to bringt skill A instead of skill B.

I mean what would you say if the dedicated healer in your grp switched 2 healing skills out for 2 which do a bit more dmg?

[sigur.9453]

@Spurnshadow.3678 said:

@Syktek.7912 said:

@Spurnshadow.3678 said:Raids are the worst of this. Here's a story. I joined a VG group. Was clearing the pre fight guardians on the first boss. I got kicked before even finishing. Why? My dps was too low according to the commander. Dude. I'm not trying that hard, don't have food or utility. Who gives a crap about maximum dps on these guys. Nope don't care. See ya.

Encounters like that are not uncommon in raids.

Oh no, you had one bad experience and we're all supposed to take your word for it. Better delete raids and DPS meters since they breed elitism. Your one bad experience and you expressing it is completely outnumbered by those who had no problems and ran without issue guaranteed. This is something I don't understand how people don't understand: Just because you had a bad experience doesn't automatically mean everyone else is fairing poorly and having their fun ruined by evil commanders spying on you with blasphemous DPS meters. It's a bad argument and statistics do not favor you.

I know this because of the amount of raid groups I've been with. The amount of new people and inexperienced people we ran through every raid wing. The amount of those people we did not kick (most of them, 90% of them, got to stay. The ones who got kicked were the ones who simply couldn't function or lied to use; liars got blacklisted). Out of all of those I only met one person genuinely upset, but they weren't removed for their DPS, they were removed because they were wasting our time with "Oh I'm setting up my build" /thirty minutes later. Only one person was ever kicked out of spite and that's because they were actively malicious towards several members. And this was across multiple guilds, not just one. I've been in several raid guilds.

My first raid guild picked me up out of the blue and taught me the ropes. While with my first raid group I was picked up by speed running guilds a few times and shown, by the best, how things are done. Free of charge. No mention of my DPS. No elitism. Genuinely fun people who were good at the game, using DPS meters and calling eachother out jokingly, didn't even mention my DPS (and it was terrible at the time as I was still learning).

But this isn't just me. I have 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 extra people I could encourage to come here and prove my point. The only people I can find that are mad about it are the a n g e r y people here on the forum (the whiny minority), the lady who was mad because she got kicked for wasting our time and that one kitten baby who cussed us out till we kicked him. Meanwhile you're going to have to go search for people or rely on the whiny minority.

Uh, what? It's not one bad experience. How on Earth do you get that from my post. Great reading comprehension. I said that my story is not uncommon. It's great that you have a raid group / guild. I don't I have to pug my raids. I'm primarally a WvWer so I understand the importance of group comp, communication, working as a team. I've taken the time to optimize my gear to the proper builds just for raids on a few different characters. I've practiced the builds I run on the golem to get my dps to an acceptable place. I know the mechanics on most of the bosses and successfully clear them on a regular basis. But because I don't have a regular raid group like you do, I'm exposed to the scum of raids much more than you. kitten with their omniscient dps meters think they're the end all be all of judgement and tout their superiority of knowledge over everyone else often.

I've been so turned off by the unwelcoming raid community in this game, I hardly ever try to find a group anymore. I haven't done a raid in months. Between the elitist idiots who want people to ping 250 LI for a VG pug run to the total gamble on jerks you might get (and arcDPS is part of this issue, again, I'm not against dps meters, just the way it's implemented in this game) to the non-existant friendly guilds who might do training runs ( I still haven't killed the sloth).

Luckily, a friend pointed me to a group that has set up a massive raid group with multiple levels of experience and regularly do training runs. I haven't done anything yet with them, but If I ever decide to get back into raids, I know they are there. Again, good for you for finding your group. Lots of us don't have that.

There are many friendly guilds out there, so you statment is just wrong.Im sorry to say, but sometimes you need to show some effort yourself (which in this case would just be a simple question in mapchat)All the ppl started where you are at this point, no experiance, some never even used teamspeak before.

And guess why the elitists want 250 LI for VG?Some of them trained there for month to get there first kill.And sure its "a gamble of jerks", like life itsself, but as in life noone is forcing you to play with them.

[Syktek.7912]

If it's so bad start your own raid group. All raid groups started from scratch and owe you nothing. Again, your own experiences where you implore us to believe you've been abused by evilitists doesn't convince anyone; especially me. Blaming your failure to find different routes into raids on the raid community is ridiculous.

[Syktek.7912]

@Rennie.6750 said:

@Fermi.2409 said:

@Loosifah.4738 said:Because it's an absolute

MUST

to squeeze that extra 1% dps into your build so you can be the absolute best using the same cookie cutter build everyone else is.

So you're looking down on people for playing how they want and attempting to improve their own gameplay?

That's not the point. Using a dps meter to monitor your own performance is completely fine, but the only use for it i've seen in group content is whinning, drama and kick-fests. I've never been called out for bad dps mind you, but I did have to go through all the bs the tools bring, and imo it's a mistake to allow seeing other player's log when you can't inspect their gear. It should be both or none, or this is just a recipe for moaning and drama.

The second you JOIN a group you forfeit the right to not be monitored as it's not your raid group. You are a guest. If that group is running a DPS meter they aren't going to stop because you don't like it. Works the same in the reverse, you start it and someone starts calling out people for DPS you have every right to kick them for being a jerk in a casual run.

[Rennie.6750]

@Syktek.7912 said:

@Rennie.6750 said:

@Fermi.2409 said:

@Loosifah.4738 said:Because it's an absolute

MUST

to squeeze that extra 1% dps into your build so you can be the absolute best using the same cookie cutter build everyone else is.

So you're looking down on people for playing how they want and attempting to improve their own gameplay?

That's not the point. Using a dps meter to monitor your own performance is completely fine, but the only use for it i've seen in group content is whinning, drama and kick-fests. I've never been called out for bad dps mind you, but I did have to go through all the bs the tools bring, and imo it's a mistake to allow seeing other player's log when you can't inspect their gear. It should be both or none, or this is just a recipe for moaning and drama.

The second you JOIN a group you forfeit the right to not be monitored as it's not your raid group. You are a guest. If that group is running a DPS meter they aren't going to stop because you don't like it. Works the same in the reverse, you start it and someone starts calling out people for DPS you have every right to kick them for being a jerk in a casual run.

Obviously we don't speak the same language. I'm talking about the crappy atmosphere that the tool brings to a lot of runs. You're talking about performance. For you performance matters more and that's fine, but you have no right to tell me what I prefer in my games and how I should enjoy them, so please stop. If an addon brings moaning, drama and a constant flow of tears and makes the experience unenjoyable to me and to other players then I'm not going to stop saying it's a bad thing because you're so much afraid that someone might leech your run without noticing it.