I hate what DPS meters have done to PVE endgame...

[Abakk.9176]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Abakk.9176 said:Opinions differ so get over it already and keep your fairytales to yourself.

DPS meters are bad! DPS meters aren't bad -> arguments supporting it!I don't care about your arguments, dps meters are just bad!

Sometimes I surprise myself why I even bothered.

DPS meters that spy on people ARE bad.

You are assuming that your 'supporting arguments' are anything more than selfserving excuses.

[Cynn.1659]

100 cm is the best place to show you how much good dps matters, especially at arkk. If you have low dps during last 30% things get quite hard, since you will have to deal with more mechanics at once. With good dps you can kill him before floor starts disappearing, without it things start to fall apart quick, now you have to deal with eye beams, arkks normal attacks, disappearing floor, and bunch of other stuff, all at the same time.

[Feanor.2358]

It's not just Arkk. Second boss is much cleaner with good dps as you don't have her jump around and spawn more of her big adds when you phase in a single burn. And even normal fractals. I've seen so many groups wipe on the silly flame effigy in Molten Boss fractal because they lacked the dps to burst it down and got swarmed by the adds. Subject 6? Same thing. And the list goes on. It's always MUCH safer when you have a proper group with good dps. It makes a struggle into a breeze. But no, we're bad people for wanting this and for not freely choosing to struggle because that's somebody else's idea of fun. Fine, whatever.

[Fermi.2409]

DPS meters that spy on people ARE bad.

"Spy on" people in a dungeon by looking at how much damage they're doing to a mob everyone is beating up and seeing how many boons they're getting, which you can see on their buff bar?

You are assuming that your 'supporting arguments' are anything more than selfserving excuses.

You're dismissing people in an incredibly condescending manner because you don't like their arguments. However, that does not invalidate those arguments

[Makai.3429]

Posts like this make me glad I don't bother with high end content in this game. Too much drama and vitriol from the elitist crowd.

[Syktek.7912]

@Makai.3429 said:Posts like this make me glad I don't bother with high end content in this game. Too much drama and vitriol from the elitist crowd.

The drama is manufactured. Very few people will mention DPS even if they are running a meter.

[Feanor.2358]

@Makai.3429 said:Posts like this make me glad I don't bother with high end content in this game. Too much drama and vitriol from the elitist crowd.

I beg to differ. All the drama comes from the other end.

[Fermi.2409]

@Makai.3429 said:Posts like this make me glad I don't bother with high end content in this game. Too much drama and vitriol from the elitist crowd.

I run the high end content on a regular basis and never seen the vitriol, toxicity, people getting kicked, etc that people are talking about. Honestly, the most toxic stuff I've really seen is a lot of the stuff coming from the "anti-meta" crowd

[Loosifah.4738]

Reading the replies in this thread reminds me why I've been banned from the forums for the past few years.

[Makai.3429]

@Fermi.2409 said:

@Makai.3429 said:Posts like this make me glad I don't bother with high end content in this game. Too much drama and vitriol from the elitist crowd.

I run the high end content on a regular basis and never seen the vitriol, toxicity, people getting kicked, etc that people are talking about. Honestly, the most toxic stuff I've really seen is a lot of the stuff coming from the "anti-meta" crowd

You're very lucky, then. My experiences trying to do high end content have been totally different.

[Exqq.7451]

I would rather they officially support DPS meters and put something into the official game. And if not being officially supported then I feel like it should be banned. It seems a copout to "allow" them but at the risk of the client using 3rd party products while maintaining that they are not supported. It is either part of the creators vision that they are a welcome addition, in which case add them, or not part of their vision and block them.

I do not care much either way, personally. I'm too lazy to install them and deal with it so I do not use them. If people want to take the time it is fine with me. But at the end of the day I think the devs should stop trying to take middle roads on everything.

[Rauderi.8706]

@Fermi.2409 said:

DPS meters that spy on people ARE bad.

"Spy on" people in a dungeon by looking at how much damage they're doing to a mob everyone is beating up and seeing how many boons they're getting, which you can see on their buff bar?

This deliberately misses the point.DPS meters are only legal if they do not read other players' data.

Granted, if 4 out of 5 people in a group run and share meters, it's not hard to figure out the last person's contribution, at least in a DPS sense. Even boons come with a source, so those contributions would be visible so long as they land on a player with a meter.And if the group adverts for a meter, well no harm no foul if someone gets asked to leave.

The problems OP and others are seeing:Not having a meter to share, yet being told DPS is low and kicked. (Meters used to "spy" on someone against ToS.)Group not advertising a meter as a requirement then kicking.

[CptAurellian.9537]

@Fermi.2409 said:I run the high end content on a regular basis and never seen the vitriol, toxicity, people getting kicked, etc that people are talking about. Honestly, the most toxic stuff I've really seen is a lot of the stuff coming from the "anti-meta" crowd

Exactly this. I've been pugging T4 fractals for more than a year and there has been not a single case of this ominous toxicity. More than a few people would have deserved something for their abysmal damage, but it's obvious even the people running Arc (myself included) don't bother as long as it somehow works.

[Fermi.2409]

@MakaiYou're very lucky, then. My experiences trying to do high end content have been totally different.

Am I lucky, or am I just a reasonable person who picks groups that aren't going to discriminate? Its always a few people who have tons of problems with groups in these threads, while most people have never had or have rarely had a problem.

[Makai.3429]

@Fermi.2409 said:

@MakaiYou're very lucky, then. My experiences trying to do high end content have been totally different.

Am I lucky, or am I just a reasonable person who picks groups that aren't going to discriminate? Its always a few people who have tons of problems with groups in these threads, while most people have never had or have rarely had a problem.

Heh. Still waiting for that "unlike many, our group doesn't have abelists, please come in" checklist in the LFG tool.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Rauderi.8706 said:This deliberately misses the point.DPS meters are only legal if they do not read other players' data.

This is false. DPS-meters reading other player's data are perfectly legal as long as what they are doing is parsing combat data (no gear inspections for example)

[Spurnshadow.3678]

Man, this thread is becoming frustrating. So many of you guys are arguing points that would exist whether there were dps meters or not. Casual vs. Pro, LFG issues, meta issues. These topics really have nothing to do with the OP or the issue. The issue is one player being enabled to have data on another player. Having said data, imo and experience, enables the jerks more than the helpful players. I think people are more apt to kick rather than trying to teach.

One person above stated that it's a good way for teaching raids to help other players. That's a good argument. But the same thing can be said if the current dps meters were not able to show other peoples dps. What would happen, and what every other game does, is asks the players learning to download "brand name" dps meter, then join the proxy server so everyone can see each other's dps and not have things so one sided.

Slightly off topic, but still relevant, programs like ARCdps, while still very flawed (not counting some damage types, not separating cleave damage, not counting CC damage, counting dps while boss is invulnerable, not counting certain healing types, the list goes on), provide mostly accurate depictions of your own dps. They make even more assumptions and estimations of other players dps and aren't able to guess at many skills. It's a very flawed system. It would be much more accurate for people to use BDSM or whatever it's called, and have everyone log into a server. That would also give consent, the lack of which is the thing I have the largest issue with.

Slightly more off topic, I feel that so many people forget that these dps meters started as hacks and still are. People hacked the game to make these things possible. They were not allowed by anet for the longest time and many still are disavowed. The only reason why Anet is currently working with one is that they realize there's nothing they can do about this (because they never discipline the players) and to make sure it's not being abused and is safe for the game. As a hack, it allows access to your games client/server memory system, and that should scare the crap out of you people. Really, Anet dropped the ball on this, because anyone from any game knows that when someone introduces "Raids," and I put that in quotes because GW2 raids are casual, are not that demanding, then DPS meters are going to be needed. It's their fault for not creating a proper combat log that could be parsed.

Back on topic. I've already stated my position, but because so many folks don't want to read or have reading comprehension problems, take statements to the extreme and distort them, I'll state it again. I think dps meters are great tools for personal use or if everyone having the same dps meter to be used in a group where everyone gives consent. However, what's in this game is not good. Getting rid of ARC with it's approximation of other peoples dps is the main issue that creates so many problems people are having with this games meters.

[Spurnshadow.3678]

Looking back over this thread, I'd like to step back a bit and gain some perspective. It's obvious that there are very passionate people on both sides of this issue, regardless of whether they are right or wrong, good or bad. Now, take the tiny snapshot of what is in this ever increasing thread and put that in the game, having it play out in raids/fractals/whatever. It's chaos and not fun.

I really feel Anet needs to do something about this. I can't tell you how many times I've had posts deleted and been infracted on the forums, yet I've never been infracted in game even though I've spewed some really bad shit in chat, especially pvp. They clearly stated that these meters broke their ToS, and still do to this day, but they don't kick people for using them, or if they do, it's anecdotal. The same is true in other game modes regarding other issues and clear hacks. If they actually policed their game as much as they did the forums, then our conversation would be totally different.

But this would be unfair at this point unless they created a solution, which would be making an in game meter system or a combat log to parse with or both. There's a glaring need for a dps meter. We know that they have some kind of in game dps meter as the golems exists. This would make things more secure, create ways for like minded people to find each other and non-like minded people to avoid each other (e.g.: lfm W4, Have TS, KP, GW2 parse). Anet must address this issue for the health and fun of the game. Just working with the developer of ARC is not enough.

[deltaconnected.4058]

@Coconut.7082 said:Did you mean: no Ranger no Necro? Dungeoneers only? Meta Zerk? Kicks for refusing to exploit Mossman on top of the cabin? Eternal / Slippery Slubling only? Spirit Quest Tonic? 50+ LI? Ping full Gear? 4 Tempests only?

Nah, All those didn't exist before DPS meters.

What else could be caused by those spiteful tools?Look at Mystic Coin price!! It was below 1g before DPS meters were legal, and where is it now?!

You caught me. I'm secretly siphoning all these accounts of mystic coins and hoarding them for myself B)

[Feanor.2358]

@Rauderi.8706 said:

@Fermi.2409 said:

DPS meters that spy on people ARE bad.

"Spy on" people in a dungeon by looking at how much damage they're doing to a mob everyone is beating up and seeing how many boons they're getting, which you can see on their buff bar?

This deliberately misses the point.DPS meters are only legal if they

do not read other players' data

.

ANet reviewed the features of the popular meters and said they were legal. Is this their game or yours?

[Fermi.2409]

Anet came out against BGDM and even ended up banning the developer because it broke the ToS and he continued to leave it in violation of the ToS instead of fixing it. Do you not think they would do the same with Arcdps?

[Azoqu.8917]

@Spurnshadow.3678 said:What would happen, and what every other game does, is asks the players learning to download "brand name" dps meter, then join the proxy server so everyone can see each other's dps and not have things so one sided.

No, what would happen is that anyone not having a meter installed would get instantly kicked (hey, just like AP/LI/being a necro or ranger/so on...). And if Anet ever made an in game DPS meter that had an opt in feature, the same thing would happen.

[Haishao.6851]

@Spurnshadow.3678 said:They clearly stated that these meters broke their ToS, and still do to this day, but they don't kick people for using them, or if they do, it's anecdotal. The same is true in other game modes regarding other issues and clear hacks. If they actually policed their game as much as they did the forums, then our conversation would be totally different.

Can you please post where they said DPS meter are breaking the TOS?and what "hacks" are you talking about?

[Dante.1763]

@Haishao.6851 said:

@Spurnshadow.3678 said:They clearly stated that these meters broke their ToS, and still do to this day, but they don't kick people for using them, or if they do, it's anecdotal. The same is true in other game modes regarding other issues and clear hacks. If they actually policed their game as much as they did the forums, then our conversation would be totally different.

Can you please post where they said DPS meter are breaking the TOS?and what "hacks" are you talking about?

Honestly i wonder if thered be half the issues if the tool itself was offered by Arenanet, instead of a third party.

[CptAurellian.9537]

@Makai.3429 said:Heh. Still waiting for that "unlike many, our group doesn't have abelists, please come in" checklist in the LFG tool.If the groups without specific requirements dont fulfill your wishes, why dont you open one yourself?