[Suggestions ] Just listen to this guy

[Fuchslein.8639]

47 minutes ago, mercury ranique.2170 said:

Sure. I never bothered about it at all. I play the game cause I enjoy it. I like doing fashion wars, but that is simular to liking to decorate my house. I have never played for a futile online currency and never will do that. So, no I wont gift it to anyone, but if it was removed from the game, I wouldnt care less.

And now try to think a little further than your own feet. I know this is hard for most here in the forum, but how many people do you think are currently like you?

Let's look at the rewards in GW2 and see what they trigger. How PVP and WVW briefly became super popular and the forum was full of "afk mimi" threads when the Legy backs were introduced. How raids suddenly became popular and the raid guild I was in suddenly needed a second guild at the time because everyone wanted the armor.
How people in GW2 jump from one meta to the next after Anet patches things and buffs others.

Sure, YOU play the way you play, but try to think about how the general public plays.
People say endcontent is dead and has no place in GW2 and at the same time say that endcontent should be there for people to enjoy and not for rewards. That is ... 

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human kittening; and I'm not sure about th'universe!" - Albert Einstein

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

[Astralporing.1957]

3 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

OK, can we, just as an experiment, delete all of the gold and material rewards from content you enjoy? Just to see what it does to your gaming habits?

Way to completely misrepresent the issue.

Hint: nobody's saying that gold is completely unimportant. The point was that farming gold is not supposed to be - and definitely should not be - considered to be the primary purpose of playing this game.

Look at two statements: first is the one quoted: "the game is about farming gold. That is the main thrust of GuildWars2. that is a fact". The second would be "The game is about having fun. And being rewarded for it.". Those represent two completely different approaches to gaming. In GW2 both approaches have their "followers", but i believe those for whom the second one is more true are in majority. Additionally, not only the second approach is much closer to the original ideas behind the game, but the first one is a complete anthitesis to those ideas.

[Fuchslein.8639]

14 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Way to completely misrepresent the issue.

Hint: nobody's saying that gold is completely unimportant. The point was that farming gold is not supposed to be - and definitely should not be - considered to be the primary purpose of playing this game.

Look at two statements: first is the one quoted: "the game is about farming gold. That is the main thrust of GuildWars2. that is a fact". The second would be "The game is about having fun. And being rewarded for it.". Those represent two completely different approaches to gaming. In GW2 both approaches have their "followers", but i believe those for whom the second one is more true are in majority. Additionally, not only the second approach is much closer to the original ideas behind the game, but the first one is a complete anthitesis to those ideas.

The way he say's the things he says is debatable. But in the end, no one knows if he is right or if you are right. I personally don't like teapot either for his controversal phrasing.

But he is just right what the rewards concerns. And Boz just pointet that out.

Gw2 would never be the casual-friendly game it is, when Anet would reward every content the same it rewrds higher/instanced enggame-contet. But at the same time say's no one plays endgame-content and therefore they dont can't spend much development in it.
That is just kittened up to me in so much ways. And it gets even worse when i read some comments here.

Edited May 6, 2022 by Fuchslein.8639

[voltaicbore.8012]

On 5/4/2022 at 3:02 PM, ChronoPinoyX.7923 said:

The problem with people like Teapot is that even if they are good at the game, their perspectives have narrowed far too much to the point where they assume everyone should be on their level when there's far more to the community than just what he sees. 

Five pages into this thread, and the above comment is still probably the best summary of what the problem with "just listen to Teapot" is.

Yes, I'm sure Teapot is well aware that casuals (as well as committed players who are just awful at combat) exist. He even tries to talk to them from time to time. But does he actually ever see them, outside of just passing by them in open world events? He has the luxury of hanging out in-game with people similarly experienced/skilled/engaged as he is. Correct me if I'm wrong, but when it came to the DE meta, I'm pretty sure he ran mostly with Hardstuck instead of being out there failing with everybody else in poorly coordinated maps. Being intellectually aware that casuals exist is totally separate from actually understanding what such players experience.

I hope ANet takes a good long look at when the game has done well (both in revenue and player count) and what might have led to such successes. As a mere player and consumer, it seems to me that the game does fine (and sometimes, it even does quite well) when the more elite-centric content (high end spvp, raids) and their associated communities are left to shrivel up and die.

Yeah. People keep saying stuff like "a game has to cater to all tiers of players to do well" like it's some sort of objectively established fact. I don't think that applies to GW2. If anything, it appears that the game really doesn't need to cater to those high-end gameplay desires to work.

Edited May 6, 2022 by voltaicbore.8012

[Hotride.2187]

I have tried listening to the guy, not my cup of tea. One of the thieves I'm very fond of thinks hes great though, so there is that.

Edited May 6, 2022 by Hotride.2187

[NuggetScout.3782]

gw2 "content" creators are so full of kitten.

[SlayerXX.7138]

15 minutes ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

I hope ANet takes a good long look at when the game has done well (both in revenue and player count) and what might have led to such successes. As a mere player and consumer, it seems to me that the game does fine (and sometimes, it even does quite well) when the more elite-centric content (high end spvp, raids) and their associated communities are left to shrivel up and die.

Are you an profit driven anet manager who would run the game in the ground so the quarter number look good? What is there to strive for without challenging endgame content? What point would be to the easy parts of the game if there would be nothing to transition into? 

No point in learning a profession if everything is easy. No point in gearing up if everything is trival.

 

Do you want GW2 to be a fashion Simulator? A gem farm simulator?

 

If Strikes, WvW, SPvP and raids die so does the rest of the game.

 

 

[NuggetScout.3782]

5 minutes ago, Albi.7250 said:

Are you an profit driven anet manager who would run the game in the ground so the quarter number look good? What is there to strive for without challenging endgame content? What point would be to the easy parts of the game if there would be nothing to transition into? 

No point in learning a profession if everything is easy. No point in gearing up if everything is trival.

 

Do you want GW2 to be a fashion Simulator? A gem farm simulator?

 

If Strikes, WvW, SPvP and raids die so does the rest of the game.

 

 

thats the problem, theyre already dead. Strikes are even asking for KP, PVE content was even doing it (wanting kill proof or even titles) , you soft lock people from DOING the content then complain that they dont wanna do it?

[SlayerXX.7138]

15 minutes ago, NuggetScout.3782 said:

thats the problem, theyre already dead. Strikes are even asking for KP, PVE content was even doing it (wanting kill proof or even titles) , you soft lock people from DOING the content then complain that they dont wanna do it?

Then open a group yourself? Join the majority of groups who don´t ask for that? 4 of the 6 IBS Strikes ask for nothing to join.

Nobody is softlocking you out of anything. YOU do that. You can`t beat Boneskinner with random mediocre players. You need people who pull there weight in that one. Believe me I tried.

 

Your post reads like you are just mad some reward is locked behind challenging content. And you would see the game die just so you can get the dam turtle egg or whatever without doing anything challenging. If we would cater the game to people like you there wouldn't be a game in a year.

 

 

Edited May 6, 2022 by Albi.7250

[Luci.7018]

10 hours ago, Albi.7250 said:

 If we would cater the game to people like you there wouldn't be a game in a year.

 

 

I think , that open PvE is just doing fine and if we keep it that way , the game  will exist for more years

Edited May 6, 2022 by Luci.7018

[Fuchslein.8639]

"I hope ANet takes a good long look at when the game has done well (both in revenue and player count) and what might have led to such successes. As a mere player and consumer, it seems to me that the game does fine (and sometimes, it even does quite well) when the more elite-centric content (high end spvp, raids) and their associated communities are left to shrivel up and die."

And people like this wonder why they are "left" out of some content. Be happy that most people don't care for the forum, otherwise some blocklist would be reaaaaalllyyyy~ long.
But hey, teapot is the bad guy here because he say's some controversal stuff in a mannerd way. These people here who literly say content can just die, are the good ones :).

Edited May 6, 2022 by Fuchslein.8639

[voltaicbore.8012]

14 minutes ago, Albi.7250 said:

Your post reads like you are just mad some reward is locked behind challenging content. And you would see the game die just so you can get the dam turtle egg or whatever without doing anything challenging. If we would cater the game to people like you there wouldn't be a game in a year.

"Not elite/not catering to hardcores" is NOT the same as "trivially easy." I've only done the DE meta before the nerfs, and succeeded 2 out of the 3 times I decided to spend 2 hours running it. Got full legendary armor on all weights through spvp, killed some raid bosses, etc - I've put in work for the cool stuff I have in the game, I'm not asking for free stuff, nor am I asking for hard content to be ejected entirely from the game.

All I'm saying is, the overall game seems to do fine even without catering to all the wishes and desires of the higher-end community. I'm sure the more committed hardcore players would like to see attention shifted away from casual OW stuff, and put towards more raids/WvW/sPvP/whatever. 

ANet just might not need to care.

  

1 minute ago, Fuchslein.8639 said:

And people like this wonder why they are "left" out of some content. Be happy that most people don't care for the forum, otherwise some blocklist would be reaaaaalllyyyy~ long.

Like I said above, never been locked out of anything I didn't want to do. I've never complained, because honestly it's not that hard to get into high end content of you care enough to look. Was easy enough to find a guild that did training runs as well as actual clears, and I didn't even need a lot of DIscord nonsense to do that. It kind of helped that I was willing to be in chronojail for a bit, and my only job was to not get one shot, spam quickness, and do a couple other things.

And that's kind of the point. If you want to do hard stuff, you can do hard stuff, and you probably will do hard stuff even if the rewards aren't super great. ANet has managed to find a pretty successful business model without using the classic "put BiS drops behind hardest PvE" model. Sadly that means the people who truly love doing just that "hardest PvE" content just aren't appreciated as much here as they would be in more classical-model games. Just how this thing is set up, in my opinion.

Edited May 6, 2022 by voltaicbore.8012

[SlayerXX.7138]

2 minutes ago, Luci.7018 said:

I think , that open PvE is just doing fine and if we keep it that way , the game  will exist for more years

I really don't understand where you guys are coming from. Without Strikes and the likes i would run out of things to do. I would be geared(exotics are easy to come by) in a day or two. Do some collection and then what?

 

What did draw you to the game in the first place? What keeps you playing in a year?

 

 

[SlayerXX.7138]

1 hour ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

All I'm saying is, the overall game seems to do fine even without catering to all the wishes and desires of the higher-end community. I'm sure the more committed hardcore players would like to see attention shifted away from casual OW stuff, and put towards more raids/WvW/sPvP/whatever. 

ANet just might not need to care.

How is Anet catering to elite content?

 

SPvP lives be the sheer force of it´s player base in spite of the decade of neglect. That is an insane Return on Investment!

WvW the selling features of GW 2 as a whole is comically under supported for what it is.

Raids got the shinny's once and anet never looked back.

 

Anet seeing the writing on the wall and trying to make Dungeon/group content more like other games(a fact i heavly dislike) is not catering to elite players.

 

GW 2 is honestly a hard enough sell as is. And owes a lot of it´s success to the good press from content creators put out.

 

What did draw you to the game in the first place? What keeps you playing in a year?

Edited May 6, 2022 by Albi.7250

[Raizel.8175]

38 minutes ago, NuggetScout.3782 said:

thats the problem, theyre already dead. Strikes are even asking for KP, PVE content was even doing it (wanting kill proof or even titles) , you soft lock people from DOING the content then complain that they dont wanna do it?

Gatekeeping is a thing in GW2 due to the lack of difficulty progression in open world and story content. People just don't need to bother with fundamental game mechanics and still get by both in story and open world content. EoD tried to change that and people are still hopping mad about it.

[voltaicbore.8012]

4 minutes ago, Albi.7250 said:

I really don't understand where you guys are coming from. Without Strikes and the likes i would run out of things to do. I would be geared(exotics are easy to come by) in a day or two. Do some collection and then what?

Yeah, and that's just you. That's also the point of what I've been trying to add to the thread here - it's a harsh realization, but I think at this point the "I want challenging content" people just have to accept that the game does fine without really catering to us. 

And yes, I said "us", because I actually do enjoy challenges. Specifically, I love soloing dungeons and fractals meant for full groups. While dungeons certainly haven't kept up with a full group of players' worth of powercreep, they don't scale down when you're alone. I found out quickly that back in the day, ANet really believed in setting up mixed teams of mobs that work well together. Figuring out, on every class, how to get through such challenges is what kept me playing for a very long time. Sometimes it's just a pure numbers game, sometimes it's about stealth or blinking through obstacles, etc. There are still a few instances I haven't soloed yet (like Deepstone or some of the CoE paths) because I haven't looked up how to get past some of the "you need 4 people to actually stand here and press F" sort of mechanics. 

Finding my own challenges and doing buildcraft around them - that's what keeps me here.

[voltaicbore.8012]

6 minutes ago, Albi.7250 said:

How is Anet catering to elite content?

Dude you keep missing the point. MY WHOLE POINT IS THAT THEY HAVEN'T, they've never really done it successfully, they probably never will do it successfully, and probably do not need to do it successfully. I mean, if catering to elite content was absolutely necessary for the game to thrive, this game had ten years to fail... but hasn't.

In fact it made so much money that GW2 revenue was plowed into side projects for years, ALL of which failed and resulted in a pretty massive layoff. But even after all that GW2 ended up beating out a lot of NCSoft's portfolio for several quarters in 2021 and later.  GW2 makes money, has a decent number of players, and saw pretty phenomenal growth the past 3 years (if you believe ANet's words don't need any deeper digging). And guess what? This whole time, all the more hardcore stuff was essentially neglected.

That doesn't sound great if you want elite stuff, but I think that's the reality of what we're looking at here.

Edited May 6, 2022 by voltaicbore.8012

[SlayerXX.7138]

26 minutes ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

Dude you keep missing the point. MY WHOLE POINT IS THAT THEY HAVEN'T, they've never really done it successfully, they probably never will do it successfully, and probably do not need to do it successfully. That doesn't sound great if you want elite stuff, but I think that's the reality of what we're looking at here.

Yeah i get that point. I´m just pretty sure if they don't step up their "maintenance" for lack of a better word, these modes will die. Then the rest of the game will suffer. Then the game dies. 

 

The power of the core battle mechanics is why they got away with it for so long.

Edited May 6, 2022 by Albi.7250

[Luci.7018]

10 hours ago, Albi.7250 said:

How is Anet catering to elite content?

 

SPvP lives be the sheer force of it´s player base in spite of the decade of neglect. That is an insane Return on Investment!

WvW the selling features of GW 2 as a whole is comically under supported for what it is.

Raids got the shinny's once and anet never looked back.

 

Anet seeing the writing on the wall and trying to make Dungeon/group content more like other games(a fact i heavly dislike) is not catering to elite players.

 

GW 2 is honestly a hard enough sell as is. And owes a lot of it thanks to the good press from "elite" content creators put out.

 

What did draw you to the game in the first place? What keeps you playing in a year?

We should thanks the creators/training guilds for their work  .

But  shouldn't we   thank more the  legendary armor  that is locked behind the raids , because it's the real hidden MVP ?

Shouldn't we make a statue for that u-sung hero ? It's not the hero we deserve ...

Edited May 6, 2022 by Luci.7018

[Luci.7018]

10 hours ago, Albi.7250 said:

Yeah i get that point. I´m just pretty sure if they don't step up there "maintenance" for lack of a better word, these modes will die. Then the rest of the game will suffer. Then the game dies. 

 

The power of the core battle mechanics is why they got away with it for so long.

WvW is revitalized , by the money of the open PvE

Just give us  an open world legendary armor and we will piggy-ride the rest of the modes

Edited May 6, 2022 by Luci.7018

[Ashen.2907]

2 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Hint: nobody's saying that gold is completely unimportant. 

Overall I agree with your point, but are you sure about, "nobody?"

[Raizel.8175]

46 minutes ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

In fact it made so much money that GW2 revenue was plowed into side projects for years, ALL of which failed and resulted in a pretty massive layoff. But even after all that GW2 ended up beating out a lot of NCSoft's portfolio for several quarters in 2021 and later.  GW2 makes money, has a decent number of players, and saw pretty phenomenal growth the past 3 years (if you believe ANet's words don't need any deeper digging). And guess what? This whole time, all the more hardcore stuff was essentially neglected.

Sorry, but this is objectively wrong. Just look up NCs quarterly earnings - their reports are quite detailed. GW2 did struggle to keep up with niche titles like Aion and Blade & Soul. Last year, GW2 made 1 billion KRW less than Aion - a game infested with RNG and P2W, a game that only got recycled content during the last few years and a game that's basically dead in NA/EU.

[SlayerXX.7138]

1 hour ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

In fact it made so much money that GW2 revenue was plowed into side projects for years, ALL of which failed and resulted in a pretty massive layoff. But even after all that GW2 ended up beating out a lot of NCSoft's portfolio for several quarters in 2021 and later.  GW2 makes money, has a decent number of players, and saw pretty phenomenal growth the past 3 years (if you believe ANet's words don't need any deeper digging). And guess what? This whole time, all the more hardcore stuff was essentially neglected.

I think they saw the writing at the wall, tried to expand PvP/WvW/Raids halve assed it and failed. And then laid people off. Like raids would be so much more successful if they took the time to tune an easy mode. But they always halve do it.

What now? Do they make money or have to fire people? Of course the make money! They cut corners all the time for the benefit of quarter reports. Which is good for the current CEO but not for the game.

Edited May 6, 2022 by Albi.7250

[Erise.5614]

39 minutes ago, Albi.7250 said:

Yeah i get that point. I´m just pretty sure if they don't step up their "maintenance" for lack of a better word, these modes will die. Then the rest of the game will suffer. Then the game dies. 

 

The power of the core battle mechanics is why they got away with it for so long.

Hardcore games generally have the same fate. We don't have a mainstream, hardcore MMO nor really any mainstream, hardcore PvP or hardcore PvE multiplayer games. They all settle in niche audiences, change course to accommodate non hardcore players or die. 

The history of games and even the history of Guild Wars is telling a quite coherent story about how hardcore games gain extremely engaged but also extremely tiny audiences that fizzle out below the means to keep up servers relatively quickly. And casual audiences are hoping between games much more. Are less faithful. But the raw numbers are so incredibly much higher that they make up extremely strong majorities if a game appeals to those audiences in any way. 

Hardcore modes in GW2 appear to be subsidized by the rest of the content. Not in terms of server cost, but a game focused exclusively around those would likely have meant they weren't around anymore. You can't pay a team of devs and server operations for such a title. 

Which is good. Don't get me wrong. Especially WvW makes for a strong unique selling point as there's really no polished, mainstream alternative. The few that are around have huge caveats or are quite niche and therefore of lower quality (which is also quite telling though). It likely even increased conversion rates into that content, increasing the size of the extremely dedicated community. Which is obviously extremely good! 

But suggesting those are what keeps the game healthy seems far fetched. 

[Astralporing.1957]

20 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Overall I agree with your point, but are you sure about, "nobody?"

Well, i guess it's not literally nobody, but i think that even most of the people that do not personally care about gold would agree that it's not completely unimportant.