Balance Patchnotes (WvW) May 10

[Arzael.1823]

5 hours ago, subversiontwo.7501 said:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/114812-game-update-notes-may-10-2022

Overall theme, just broad co-eff nerfs to popular large-scale damage buttons (mainly ranged spike buttons). Small-scale largely unaffected.

Necromancer

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"Rise!" is a skill that we've seen a lot of feedback around following the last set of balance changes. One of the primary issues with the skill is the number of minions that it's capable of summoning, as these minions can potentially soak up a lot of damage while also creating damage threats via Death Nova. To address this, we've reduced the target cap of the skill, which will both reduce the number of minions summoned and increase the cooldown of the skill by granting fewer hits of cooldown reduction from Augury of Death.

• "Rise!": Reduced maximum number of targets struck from 5 to 2 in WvW only.
• Death Nova: Reduced power coefficient from 0.75 to 0.6 in WvW only.

Another World vs. World goal for this update is to bring down some of the primary sources of ranged area-of-effect damage to create more opportunities for melee pushes. Ranged versus melee is always going to be a delicate balance as we do want both options to be viable, but we currently feel that ranged pressure is too high, and we're making some adjustments. For necromancer, this involves bringing down the damage of Well of Suffering and Well of Corruption. Unholy Feast is also being brought back down to its previous damage value, as the increase from the previous update pushed it a bit higher than it needed to be.

• Well of Suffering: Reduced power coefficient per hit from 0.9 to 0.65 in WvW only.
• Well of Corruption: Reduced power coefficient per hit from 0.35 to 0.28 in WvW only.
• Unholy Feast: Reduced power coefficient from 1.3 to 1.0 in WvW only.

 

Revenant

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The revenant's hammer is another source of ranged pressure that we looked at for this update, with both Coalescence of Ruin and Phase Smash receiving damage reductions.

• Coalescence of Ruin: Reduced power coefficient from 1.15 to 0.91 in WvW only.
• Phase Smash: Reduced power coefficient from 1.2 to 1.0 in WvW only.

Vindicator has continued to overperform in PvP, largely due to the defensive strength of the Kurzick side of Legendary Alliance Stance. We want to keep the energy costs on the lower side to maintain the flow when switching between the two sides, but the cooldowns of Tree Song and Battle Dance make them too easy to use repeatedly while staying on the Kurzick side. Saint's Shield is also getting an adjustment to its attribute scaling to bring down the sustainability of Avatar Amulet builds. We're continuing to keep an eye on the strength of Saint's Shield for nonhealing builds, but we want to gauge the impact of the adjustments to Tree Song and Battle Dance before making any further changes there.

• Tree Song: Reduced the number of conditions removed from 5 to 3 in PvP only. Increased cooldown from 3 seconds to 8 seconds in PvP only.
• Battle Dance: Increased cooldown from 3 seconds to 10 seconds in PvP only.
• Saint's Shield: Reduced healing and barrier attribute scaling from 1.0 to 0.7 in PvP only.

While the defensive side of the vindicator has been strong, its offensive capability has been a bit less impressive since the adjustment to Eternity's Requiem. We've bumped up the damage on some of its weaker skills on the greatsword and the Luxon side of Legendary Alliance Stance to make damage-focused vindicators a bit more threatening.

• Phantom's Onslaught: Increased power coefficient from 1.18 to 1.33 in PvP and WvW.
• Scavenger Burst: Increased power coefficient from 1.25 to 1.55 in PvP only.
• Nomad's Advance: Increased power coefficient from 2.0 to 2.3 in PvP and WvW.
• Spear of Archemorus: Increased power coefficient from 2.33 to 2.67 in PvP and WvW. Reduced energy cost from 20 to 15 in PvP and WvW.

 

Elementalist

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Elementalist is another profession getting a pair of adjustments to some of its more potent ranged damage skills, namely Meteor Shower and the Firestorm from Fiery Greatsword.

• Meteor Shower: Reduced power coefficient from 1.1 to 0.88 in WvW only.
• Firestorm (Conjure Fiery Greatsword): Reduced maximum number of targets struck from 10 to 5 in WvW only.
• Fiery Eruption (Conjure Fiery Greatsword): Reduced maximum number of targets struck from 10 to 5 in WvW only.

 

Guardian

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Finishing up the ranged damage adjustments for this update are a pair of changes for guardian, bringing down the damage of Symbol of Punishment and Sword of Justice.

• Symbol of Punishment: Reduced power coefficient per hit from 0.33 to 0.28 in WvW only.
• Sword of Justice: Reduced power coefficient per hit from 0.54 to 0.45 in WvW only. Reduced ammunition count from 3 to 2 in WvW only.

 

I don't think I missed anything, everything else seems to be sPvP only.

argh why its makes 2 posts of it... pls read below ^^

Edited May 10, 2022 by Arzael.1823

[Arzael.1823]

In the end anet is nerfing corenecrobuilds again... 4th or 5ths time in a row.. especially powerbuilds .. why? as condi in all classes never got really nerfed only powerdmg  and condicleanses i cant find balance in that... since anet removed the ability to stand in your wells and get less dmg... smallscale and roamernecros are lost against every class you need stability against or wich can get invis as you need to traget for hit... and the wells are not really things with so much range... when will condi be nerfed in same way...? Ever tried to kill catapult with powerclass since nerf? with condiclasses you only need seconds... the long ago promissed balance between condi and power so you can choose free and more variations are playable is absolutly missing 😞 

[lblazer.5381]

individual people wanting more damage so they deal more damage to a zerg, problem is individual players in that zerg can also deal more damage cause of the boons/traits of other class, whatever damage you put on each class it gets boosted in a zerg/group

changing damage in individual class won't balance it, if people stack in a zerg they will always have that advantage over smaller numbers

 

the only way i think will have better impact is to make changes to skills/boons that affect the group, the way it is now is give advantage to people that are grouped together, reason why we have zergs and that design promotes people to be on a zerg

 

if you want smaller number to have a chance against a bigger number then there must be some changes done to a zerg

can't say how people view it but people should not be able to pack tightly 40+ on a small area, run in lightning speed when packed together, those things that you have advantage when your in a zerg

 

if you want to lessen the advantage of a zerg then put a disadvantage over people that are packed together if they are greater than a certain number


 

 

[Dagger.2035]

28 minutes ago, lblazer.5381 said:

individual people wanting more damage so they deal more damage to a zerg, problem is individual players in that zerg can also deal more damage cause of the boons/traits of other class, whatever damage you put on each class it gets boosted in a zerg/group

But if fewer players cloud the zerg, then the cloud can concentrate their damage while the zerg goes after individual targets.

[Lord of the Fire.6870]

10 hours ago, Zedo.5804 said:

Welcome to Nerf Wars 2...

Since 2018

[Draygo.9473]

23 hours ago, subversiontwo.7501 said:

I find this to be a rather odd take on things for a couple of reasons:

The balance has been pretty good over the past year or two. It hasn't been stellar (with too many melee builds still exlcuded) but it has contained a mixture of both ranged and melee calls. Not every norm or meta has. So, for me at least, the concern is rather that they will upset things that work well without being able to adress issues that do not work as well. It doesn't feel pointed or purposeful enough, perhaps it will become with time or with the june patch.

Most of the abilities in the list are not commonly used at smaller scale or in roaming. They're not nerfing ranged damage across the board. While there is reason for some concern such as overall grouped balance and cross-scaling (ie., 5v15 or 15v25 etc.) or how balancing eg., boons and damage against oneanother can lead to some wonky future balance issues, I'm sure they won't really affect you or the things you are concerned about.

The cleave cap, well, that topic feels like it has been rather exhausted at this point. You'll have to excuse me if I read too much into your comment and lump you in with others who raise similar concerns, but the majority on this forum now are people who play "alone, next to each other", ie., clouding, defending and confuse that with roaming etc., and changes like these will not make massed uncoordinated damage from/around walls any more or less viable. Don't qoute me on it, but I think Anet are firmly back in the camp of not promoting that over more intentional cooperation and community building. Even if you prefer playing small or play defensively, they want small groups with more intent. Changes like these affect all of these things, but they affect them differently: So, I think some small concern about how this will affect eg., 5v15 is fair - but if the concern is how 1x5 solo players measure up to a group of 15, where they're not only outnumbered but also out-organised and usually outplayed, Anet are not likely to listen and that is for a reason.

I don't care about 1v5, or 5v15, or 20v50. I care about 1v1, 5v5, 20v20, and 50v50.

 

Anet has a balancing issue in the game that the bigger the blob, the more advantaged ranged is in a fight.  Just nerfing ranged skills or buffing melee ones drastically changes smaller scale balance and skews smaller scale toward melee centric. My concern is that anet is going to keep 'balancing' ranged till they see more melee builds in the mix in the larger scale fights. 

 

My general opinion is that melee combat in zerg situations should be a high risk and high reward play. Looking at the cleave cap gives anet a balancing lever that does not require them to buff melee dps or nerf ranged dps further until the meta is where they want it. Yes its been hashed around a lot before, but that doesn't mean we cant keep pushing it.  

 

I don't think anet has to fix 5v15 balance. If someone manages to beat 15 people with 5, good on them. The suggestion is not aimed at buffing unorganized play, but quite the opposite. I want there to be a larger reward for a successful organized melee push into a ranged comp. I think combat in wvw would be a bit more fun if zergs entered melee combat against each other more regularly and I think thats the direction anet wants to push wvw into, but how they are accomplishing this I feel will detract from ranged gameplay more generally. 

[Xenesis.6389]

Oh you want to start fighting in melee only? well ok nerf all the range and aoes, and then how about they start nerfing stability too, let's see how good these booners really are at dodging and moving in melee range instead of just trucking over people cause they got numbers.

Don't confuse emote me, you either fight with ranged or have stability, pick one cause you shouldn't have both, only reason why there's so much stability is to counter range/cc bombs, if we can't have that and have to fight melee then you shouldn't have all that stability.

Edited May 12, 2022 by Xenesis.6389

[subversiontwo.7501]

1 hour ago, Draygo.9473 said:

I don't care about 1v5, or 5v15, or 20v50. I care about 1v1, 5v5, 20v20, and 50v50.

 

Anet has a balancing issue in the game that the bigger the blob, the more advantaged ranged is in a fight.  Just nerfing ranged skills or buffing melee ones drastically changes smaller scale balance and skews smaller scale toward melee centric. My concern is that anet is going to keep 'balancing' ranged till they see more melee builds in the mix in the larger scale fights.

That's fair, but then I can only refer you back to what I first said.

I'm not one to say how people have to play, but simple logic would dictate that things like Necro Wells, Meteor Showers, Swords of Justice and CoR/PS are not much of a factor in 1v1 and 5v5 scenarios. The reason I brought cross-scaling up is because they may see use in a group of 5 or more that engages something larger. Things like Meteors/FGS or CoR/PS are quite common for havoc and busting. So those things (which I enjoy doing) stands the most to lose with these changes, but they are very specific and it's quite baffling to see other players more up in arms about it than I am.

For 20v20 and 50v50 I would assume that anyone who plays them knows that the past few years have had both ranged spikes and melee pushes with only Breakers and Chronos in a fully melee oriented role most commonly played in minstrel just to be able to spend sufficient time in melee to warrant their role. I don't see any contention to that. Ontop of that you have the old addage of that range always can cloud in a melee meta. So even if melee would involve a larger portion of a typical squad, ranged is not going anywhere.

So I would agree with you that it isn't perhaps the best of changes to first nerf what is mostly control-support and then nerf ranged damage rather than ranged control. That seems like a roundabout way of dealing with things, at least until we see further changes. However, and this is why I said milky, I don't really see anything of this turning things upside down even if time will have to tell. The CoR/PS changes are perhaps the most substantial nerf to any one class or role in this patch and I still don't necessarily see anything overtaking Heralds' roles in 20v20 to 50v50. The last patch was arguably tougher on Warriors than any of these changes are to Necros, Revs, Eles or Guards.

Then these forums are what they always are. People scream about small-scale issues when the patch quite clearly intends to look at large-scale only. Small-scale presumably due next month. That should be no surprise since it has more- and more complex problems to fix. There is some stinky stuff there, for sure, but reading the notes should make this perfectly clear. The same goes for most other stuff, where people here cry their eyes out about things that they're just outright wrong about because they can't read notes or play the things they complain about enough to understand them. I saw someone muttering about why aegis never gets nerfed a day or two ago, when it got hit with quite substantial nerfs last patch or why healing doesn't get nerfs, while it has been hit just as often as damage has, and things like the aegis nerf is also a rather substantial healing nerf or damage buff (mitigation+conversion/totals).

Edited May 11, 2022 by subversiontwo.7501

[Abjurer.9302]

2 hours ago, subversiontwo.7501 said:

Things like Meteors/FGS or CoR/PS are quite common for havoc and busting. So those things (which I enjoy doing) stands the most to lose with these changes, but they are very specific and it's quite baffling to see other players more up in arms about it than I am.

Some players are on servers with bad coverage or stacked with fair weather players that log out during tough matchups.  This means that they have to spend the majority of their time fighting against larger numbers.

Edited May 11, 2022 by Abjurer.9302

[Sahne.6950]

15 hours ago, Draygo.9473 said:

My general opinion is that melee combat in zerg situations should be a high risk and high reward play. Looking at the cleave cap gives anet a balancing lever that does not require them to buff melee dps or nerf ranged dps further until the meta is where they want it.

They should just limit the Targetcap of Ranged attacks to 5 and raise every meelehit to a targetcap of 10 or even higher!  We would see a melee meta within minutes 😄

(i know this will make the servers explode) Just wanted to throw the idea around, because THAT is the only thing that will turn the WvW meta around, without blanket nerfing every rangeoption into uselessness.

Edited May 12, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Draygo.9473]

15 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

They should just limit the Targetcap of Ranged attacks to 5 and raise every meelehit to a targetcap of 10 or even higher!  We would see a melee meta within minutes 😄

(i know this will make the servers explode) Just wanted to throw the idea around, because THAT is the only thing that will turn the WvW meta around, without blanket nerfing every rangeoption into uselessness.

I was thinking more like 6 or 7 at most to start. 6 is a 20% increase max in zergball situations. 10 is probably too much. 

[Coldtart.4785]

If you took a full glass berserker right now and did a signet of fury -> berserk -> arc divider -> blood reckoning -> arc divider combo anyone who takes all of that is 100% downed. There are other melee burst builds that can pull out similarly explosive numbers so I don't think there's any problem with the damage potential of melee builds. I think the issue is more to do with the amount of ticking aoes in the game, especially ones that do more than just damage as this type of skill gives a disadvantage to the side that pushes first while also being extremely easy to use.