When I created my first ele in 2012...

[Axl.8924]

On 5/16/2022 at 3:05 AM, Obtena.7952 said:

I mean, I'm not saying it can't be done. I just don't think there is a business case to do it in GW2. Just having a few raids/strikes where there are anti-melee mechanics simply means the need for a different approach to succeeding. It doesn't create an environment where Anet needs to 're-imagine' how the game is designed or classes are balanced. A fraction of ranged-favoured group encounters is just not a significant enough of a development to require what we are talking about here. 

Personally i don't get why ANET favors melee unless maybe because of nagging and whining. I do think ranged damage weaknesses on bosses should be a thing and favoring on some range plus i  do want staff ele to be useful.

[Obtena.7952]

9 hours ago, Axl.8924 said:

Personally i don't get why ANET favors melee unless maybe because of nagging and whining. I do think ranged damage weaknesses on bosses should be a thing and favoring on some range plus i  do want staff ele to be useful.

I think it's because that's the range where they have designed everything in the game to happen. Personally, I think that the real answer is that they let boons sort of run away from them, so now they have to make a choice on how to deal with that. They choose to focus in on 'boon range' 

Edited May 17, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[SinisterSeven.2781]

Elementalist: Exists
no one:
absolutely nobody:
anet: oh look at the time! *nerfs elementalist*

[Joswi.2635]

On 5/15/2022 at 6:46 PM, Gibson.4036 said:

Shortbow renegade? Longbow Ranger?  Staff mirage? Hammer Rev? Shortbow Soulbeast?

GW2 can have fun, effective ranged builds in multiple game modes.

Except for some reason Ele needs to be clunky and soft hitting.

Exactly. There are ranged builds that are good and work in both open world and group content. The only reason they aren't actually played at range in group content is boons. That's it, that's the only reason ranged builds are forced to play in melee range. The other thing about ranged is when a mechanic is forcing your group to move, you can still do damage. Sure your boons may fall off temporarily but you're still doing damage unlike melee characters that are running around. In open world where you are usually alone and boons don't matter, ranged is perfectly viable and works just fine. So it is crazy that elementalist, a caster class that still says on character creation "Favors Ranged" doesn't get to have a good ranged option. Then people argue that that's ok because you play in melee range anyway for group content. I still just want the option of range and for it to be good like other classes have.

[Puck.3697]

On 5/17/2022 at 8:11 AM, Axl.8924 said:

Personally i don't get why ANET favors melee unless maybe because of nagging and whining. I do think ranged damage weaknesses on bosses should be a thing and favoring on some range plus i  do want staff ele to be useful.

its not so much Anet favors Melee.

Heres the Paradim that generally goes throughout MMORPGS balance wise in these 2 areas.

Melee, are susposed to do more DPS Then ranged, but that is to be offset by 1) Being at larger risk of taking damage and 2) losing DPS When mechanics force players away from the target, also Ranged typically deal with Mechanics going on in a fight as they can do DPS On the move unlike Melee.

Ranged are susposed to do Less Damage, but have higher uptime, and be at Less Risk of taking Damage.

the problem is GW2s Mechanical development has never exceeded the far to create this Dynamic.

- Boons force you to clump. so both melee and ranged are sat in Melee Range of the boss, When moving away from the boss during mechanics, u lose all boons meaning u lose over half your DPS Anyway for the entire time.

- GW2 Lacks threatening mechanics which cant simply be Outhealed / Barriered / Booned.

- GW2 Lacks mechanics which force players to move towards ( I.E Soaking Puddles, Shared Damage Attacks which force stacking away from boss and things that spawn or happen around the fight)

its not the fact Anet Favors Melee, its the Fact that the games Mechanics, Fights, Raids and Bosses Just dont require Ranged Presence, so the only time ranged becomes a Option is when it Simply out-DPSes melee options, which causes the exact same problem just reversed.

Until GW2 takes Steps into Large scale Raid Design, Encounter Design etc etc, this game simply lacks a use for Ranged playstyles, its not that they "Favor melee" in every MMORPG melees do more DPS. its Simply the fact GW2 has Fallen behind in game design comparitively to both WoW and FFXIV.

when the only raid mechanics that Exist is:

Stack.

and Stack and Spam healing.

you create 0 Dynamic to builds outside Providing Boons. Doing Damage and Taking Damage and due to that, effectively. One doing more DPS Then the other nullifies the other option. because Unlike WoW and FFXIV EVERY proffession has Access to BOTH Ranged and Melee

in WoW.

If u are a hunter, you are Ranged.

If you are a Mage you are ranged.

if u are a Warrior you are Melee

If you are a Monk you are melee.

u cant shake that up, thats just statically how they're develoepd

in FFXIV

If you are a Ninja you are Melee

if you are a Dragoon you are melee

If you are a Summoner you are Ranged

if you are a Black mage you are Ranged.

you cannot Facilitate a Melee or Ranged Playstyle on any class / Proffession in these games, to provide what those classes do, you are forced to play the playstyle they are within.

GW2 allows every proffession to run both Melee and Ranged builds, while providing the exact same heals, the exact same Damage and the exact same boons, they arent restricted to a Ranged or melee Playstyle via any other source Outside simply: Raid Tactic and Damage.

If WoW Woke up tomorrow and Made every class capable of both ranged and melee Damage. 1 Would win.

if FFXIV Woke up tomorrow and made every class capable of both ranged and melee Damage, 1 would win.

its the fact those games Dont allow you to play Strictly Melee or Ranged that is What causes this problem realistically. and then every other problem is simply stacking that effect realistically. i dont think its the fact Anet favor Melee... its More the factor Anet know one side of this will win.

- Make Boons larger Effects to cater to ranged and make ranged Take more damage.. No one will play melee. you repeat the exact same problem in reverse. also lets not forget there are actually ALOT of proffessions with Ranged meta builds.

- Ranger uses Longbow in almost every build.

- Renegade runs Shortbow in every build.

- Necromancer on both scourge and harbinger run full Ranged kits.

- Virtuoso Again is a Ranged kit.

but NONE of these proffessions stand at ranged, they stand point blank with 1200 Ranged Weapons, people forget back in Core when staff was great, That another reason why it worked so well, was because in core design the boon uptime was MINISCAL compared to todays, you didnt need to clump so much because 100% Uptime on boons just didnt exist.

2 hours ago, Joswi.2635 said:

Exactly. There are ranged builds that are good and work in both open world and group content. The only reason they aren't actually played at range in group content is boons. That's it, that's the only reason ranged builds are forced to play in melee range. The other thing about ranged is when a mechanic is forcing your group to move, you can still do damage. Sure your boons may fall off temporarily but you're still doing damage unlike melee characters that are running around. In open world where you are usually alone and boons don't matter, ranged is perfectly viable and works just fine. So it is crazy that elementalist, a caster class that still says on character creation "Favors Ranged" doesn't get to have a good ranged option. Then people argue that that's ok because you play in melee range anyway for group content. I still just want the option of range and for it to be good like other classes have.

tbh most with this argument dont say its Okay, more as it doesnt matter due to the fact your forced to play melee anyway. anyway, Alot of the reason here is Simply Weapon Swap. Due to weapon swap, the other proffessions Simply use MORE of the accessible weapons then Elementalist does.

now Elementalist was susposed to have things like ice bow to levy this to mimic this to fix the issue, however anet allowed conjured weapons to waste away which has forced a Melee build into Pure Melee or a Ranged build into Pure Ranged.

and you are correct, Its not okay. it is about time Elementalist got a Ranged Elite realistically, regardless to the success of ranged weapons in GW2 or Ranged gameplay, effectively Elementalist should have one by now.

Longbow in 3 expansions has had 1 (??) Elite take it on.. Ele should have gotten Longbow 100%. its sad that still. after all this time. the only proffession repping longbow is Ranger.

Edited May 20, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Tukaram.8256]

My main in GW was my elementalist. So naturally when GW2 came out, the ele was my first avatar.  What a total shock of a useless character.  I did eventually get him to level 80 and he is still garbage. What a shame, such a fun class in GW.  GW2 for me is all about the necro and ranger now. 

[Serephen.3420]

In gw1 I mained ranger and second mained ele, funny how that swapped around in gw2.

I remember when I first made my ele 2012 I wasn't huge on staff, as soon as I got daggers I fell in love with the class.

Since then staff slowly grew on me as did scepter for a time(fresh air days).  But to this day none captured me quite the same way as my apothecary or cleric roaming ele, heck even used daggers in dungeons back then with thatclassic fgs and fb. 

A lot has changed since then, warhorn made me sad, though I dislike tempest less than I used to. Weaver probably was the closest to having that same feeling again. Catalyst? Well hard to say, it's a bit mixed for me, sometimes I really enjoy it sometimes I hate it or feel bored with it. 

I can only hope if they do make a ranged weapon option for a new spec(oh long bow I long for you) that it will at least not be as dull as staff and be more flexible than scepter. 

Edited May 20, 2022 by Serephen.3420

[Axl.8924]

6 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

its not so much Anet favors Melee.

Heres the Paradim that generally goes throughout MMORPGS balance wise in these 2 areas.

Melee, are susposed to do more DPS Then ranged, but that is to be offset by 1) Being at larger risk of taking damage and 2) losing DPS When mechanics force players away from the target, also Ranged typically deal with Mechanics going on in a fight as they can do DPS On the move unlike Melee.

Ranged are susposed to do Less Damage, but have higher uptime, and be at Less Risk of taking Damage.

the problem is GW2s Mechanical development has never exceeded the far to create this Dynamic.

- Boons force you to clump. so both melee and ranged are sat in Melee Range of the boss, When moving away from the boss during mechanics, u lose all boons meaning u lose over half your DPS Anyway for the entire time.

- GW2 Lacks threatening mechanics which cant simply be Outhealed / Barriered / Booned.

- GW2 Lacks mechanics which force players to move towards ( I.E Soaking Puddles, Shared Damage Attacks which force stacking away from boss and things that spawn or happen around the fight)

its not the fact Anet Favors Melee, its the Fact that the games Mechanics, Fights, Raids and Bosses Just dont require Ranged Presence, so the only time ranged becomes a Option is when it Simply out-DPSes melee options, which causes the exact same problem just reversed.

Until GW2 takes Steps into Large scale Raid Design, Encounter Design etc etc, this game simply lacks a use for Ranged playstyles, its not that they "Favor melee" in every MMORPG melees do more DPS. its Simply the fact GW2 has Fallen behind in game design comparitively to both WoW and FFXIV.

when the only raid mechanics that Exist is:

Stack.

and Stack and Spam healing.

you create 0 Dynamic to builds outside Providing Boons. Doing Damage and Taking Damage and due to that, effectively. One doing more DPS Then the other nullifies the other option. because Unlike WoW and FFXIV EVERY proffession has Access to BOTH Ranged and Melee

in WoW.

If u are a hunter, you are Ranged.

If you are a Mage you are ranged.

if u are a Warrior you are Melee

If you are a Monk you are melee.

u cant shake that up, thats just statically how they're develoepd

in FFXIV

If you are a Ninja you are Melee

if you are a Dragoon you are melee

If you are a Summoner you are Ranged

if you are a Black mage you are Ranged.

you cannot Facilitate a Melee or Ranged Playstyle on any class / Proffession in these games, to provide what those classes do, you are forced to play the playstyle they are within.

GW2 allows every proffession to run both Melee and Ranged builds, while providing the exact same heals, the exact same Damage and the exact same boons, they arent restricted to a Ranged or melee Playstyle via any other source Outside simply: Raid Tactic and Damage.

If WoW Woke up tomorrow and Made every class capable of both ranged and melee Damage. 1 Would win.

if FFXIV Woke up tomorrow and made every class capable of both ranged and melee Damage, 1 would win.

its the fact those games Dont allow you to play Strictly Melee or Ranged that is What causes this problem realistically. and then every other problem is simply stacking that effect realistically. i dont think its the fact Anet favor Melee... its More the factor Anet know one side of this will win.

- Make Boons larger Effects to cater to ranged and make ranged Take more damage.. No one will play melee. you repeat the exact same problem in reverse. also lets not forget there are actually ALOT of proffessions with Ranged meta builds.

- Ranger uses Longbow in almost every build.

- Renegade runs Shortbow in every build.

- Necromancer on both scourge and harbinger run full Ranged kits.

- Virtuoso Again is a Ranged kit.

but NONE of these proffessions stand at ranged, they stand point blank with 1200 Ranged Weapons, people forget back in Core when staff was great, That another reason why it worked so well, was because in core design the boon uptime was MINISCAL compared to todays, you didnt need to clump so much because 100% Uptime on boons just didnt exist.

tbh most with this argument dont say its Okay, more as it doesnt matter due to the fact your forced to play melee anyway. anyway, Alot of the reason here is Simply Weapon Swap. Due to weapon swap, the other proffessions Simply use MORE of the accessible weapons then Elementalist does.

now Elementalist was susposed to have things like ice bow to levy this to mimic this to fix the issue, however anet allowed conjured weapons to waste away which has forced a Melee build into Pure Melee or a Ranged build into Pure Ranged.

and you are correct, Its not okay. it is about time Elementalist got a Ranged Elite realistically, regardless to the success of ranged weapons in GW2 or Ranged gameplay, effectively Elementalist should have one by now.

Longbow in 3 expansions has had 1 (??) Elite take it on.. Ele should have gotten Longbow 100%. its sad that still. after all this time. the only proffession repping longbow is Ranger.

 

So basically the openess just makes it harder to balance is what you mean makes sense it seems like they are always fidgeting trying to balance the powers of classes for each mode.

[Puck.3697]

2 hours ago, Axl.8924 said:

 

So basically the openess just makes it harder to balance is what you mean makes sense it seems like they are always fidgeting trying to balance the powers of classes for each mode.

Sadly yes, it seems mmorpgs. The more options exist the less of them are actually worth a kitten, if we look at the most balanced mmorpg in terms of classes

Ffxiv. 

No options. No specs, no change of abilities. One weapon per class, pvp no existent, other games modes non existent. No open world pvp. 

Its hard to balance hundreds of variables to work out even, as every balance change has a knock on effect. 

Buff staff!. 1 month later: melee weapons are useless. Nerf staff! Now you've deleted ranged options. 

It doesn't justify the fact they have actively ignored staff. As there's no reason why stuff can't be changed up it doesn't matter if one weapons dominant if its continously changing.

Anets issue is primarily the fact they tend to leave things in bad states for loooong periods of time. Instead of changing things up like WoW does.

WoW is ironically less balanced then gw2, the difference is the meta in WoW changes every 2 or 3 months. So the length of time people spend in bad state is so much shorter. 

[Ace.1784]

On 5/15/2022 at 12:11 PM, Ashen.2907 said:

Except that for the situation he is describing either his opponents had to cooperate with him in killing them or he was part of a coordinated group of his own. Only an unbelievably bad or suicidal group, literally trying to die, would be killed by him solo in that situation. Poor balance would be a group trying to die and failing.

 

On 5/16/2022 at 10:36 PM, greedywholesome.9081 said:

 

Yes, I must have worded it incorrectly because of being the only staff cata in the small squad, we had to outsmart zergs larger than ours in  WvW. No way I could wipe a zerg alone. I'm just average and give credit to the commander of the squad. At choke points, the double meteor shower melted larger zergs. Even more effective if we had 2 staff cata. 

I probably should have quoted more of the context, and I was following the initial discussion and onwards.

The patch reduced the damage of Meteor Shower and Fiery GS; however,  they are still extremely potent skills. The original post mentions nerfing staff is ridiculous. 

The stated intent in nerfing range mechanics is to allow more melee compositions to be effective and not be outclassed as easily.

Then came the story about zerg busting.

The point of my post was to highlight why the ranged damage changes are necessary. 

I think the lack of this context caused the replies to focus on my response as a reaction to the story rather than a comment on Elementalist as a ranged damage dealer.