vindicator OP

[felix.2386]

thanks anet, vindicator now does way too much damage for the sustain it still has.

people are already caught up to it.

a trillion aoe damage with trillion evade, similar to willbender.

the dodge is literally critting for 8k on heavy armor.

 

isnt it great when you get 7 seconds of vigor per dodge and increased vigor effectiveness by 50%

and have endurance gain increase by 25%

and energy meld with only 20 second cd

and sigil energy

and 15 energy gain on shadow riposte

all combined together

 

on top of two evades from stances, and one evade and one block from ss/gs

 

this dude has a million more evades then herald lol

 

[Sahne.6950]

4 hours ago, felix.2386 said:

thanks anet, vindicator now does way too much damage for the sustain it still has.

people are already caught up to it.

a trillion aoe damage with trillion evade, similar to willbender.

the dodge is literally critting for 8k on heavy armor.

 

isnt it great when you get 7 seconds of vigor per dodge and increased vigor effectiveness by 50%

and have endurance gain increase by 25%

and energy meld with only 20 second cd

and sigil energy

and 15 energy gain on shadow riposte

all combined together

 

on top of two evades from stances, and one evade and one block from ss/gs

 

this dude has a million more evades then herald lol

 

i did fight 3 diffrent Vindicators yesterday in the pvp arena. I was playing Soulbeast and had no problem against any of them. Does not look busted to me....   Yeah the damage was quite nice, but it is just as telegraphed as it has ever been. And the sustain is lower, if you catch them offguard once... they are toast.

But like i said i just did fight 3 yesterday... maybe they were just bad.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

2 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

i did fight 3 diffrent Vindicators yesterday in the pvp arena. I was playing Soulbeast and had no problem against any of them. Does not look busted to me....   Yeah the damage was quite nice, but it is just as telegraphed as it has ever been. And the sustain is lower, if you catch them offguard once... they are toast.

But like i said i just did fight 3 yesterday... maybe they were just bad.

Go attack a Vindicator that has a plat+ badge next to its name.

Come back here and tell us if you were able to get it bellow 95% health.

 

@felix.2386 Is right. Vindicator is very clearly overperforming now right alongside of Willblender. Vindicator was already being ranked as S tier performance before the damage buffs. it was a really unnecessary buff.

[lysico.1297]

Umm op not seeing what you are.   They do more damage but lot more squishy.   

[Curennos.9307]

4 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Go attack a Vindicator that has a plat+ badge next to its name.

Come back here and tell us if you were able to get it bellow 95% health.

 

@felix.2386 Is right. Vindicator is very clearly overperforming now right alongside of Willblender. Vindicator was already being ranked as S tier performance before the damage buffs. it was a really unnecessary buff.

I don't think I've seen someone actually - without hyperbole - explain what's wrong. Can you elaborate?

 

Off the top of my head, the damage buffs were probably too much and should have been partially funneled back into GS5. G S2, 3, already hit hard enough. Red alliance skills except for spear, gap closer, and heal should imo have their damage removed and the power of that funneled into minor buffs - add higher fury duration, swiftness, maybe might to scav burst, might/vuln to the stunbreak, etc, instead of doing a chunk of damage.

Damage-dodge is too strong and could use both damage trimming and increase to the buff while shortening the duration of the buff to turn it into more of a burst window. Similar to how increasing vuln stacks would overall increase damage, but still provide more opportunity for counterplay - as opposed to having to flee the lil circle lest the rev sit on your face for 10k damage.

Damage buffs to red gap closer and spear might have been too much (I'm enjoying the reduced energy cost on spear tho, and imo it's relatively fine - it's extremely slow and telegraphed, but eh). 

Blue skills could use a slight trim, imo - treesong could lose the healing per condition (maybe change it to regen or just lower it). Heals seem okay, they're long channels, but could possibly be weighted more towards intended usage - nerf 'em but make the red one heal more per nearby enemy struck, nerf the blue but heal more per nearby ally, so it's better at support but worse at bunkering alone.

Overall I'd rather see vind have two base normal dodges, then turn the super dodge into a 10 sec cooldown replacement for energy meld, then balance around that. And make the damage superdodge faster, as the long length of it helps stall on node and imo can make it too easy to hit someone with it. Edit: doesn't seem like the dodge move speed is impacted by chill, cripple, which if vind gets two base dodges plus super dodge on a cooldown it should be impacted by move speed decreasing condis.

 

There are other issues but they're more rev as a whole rather than vind specifically, like shiro needing some rebalancing (still, lol) and Dwarf iirc is still bugged on the CC.

 

Anything I'm missing?

Edited May 12, 2022 by Curennos.9307

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

5 hours ago, Curennos.9307 said:

I don't think I've seen someone actually - without hyperbole - explain what's wrong. Can you elaborate?

Alright, people who aren't getting this have not watched recent high tier play and have not gone against strong players who are trying hard wielding this build. And yeah, I'm talking about good players going against good players.

This is pretty to explain with a simple comparison.

These comparisons are based off of p2+ vs p2+ over the years.

1. Something like an old HoT Bunker Druid had S+ tier sustain and like D or E tier damage, C tier mobility.
2. Something like an old HoT Bunker Scrapper had S+ tier sustain and like D or E tier damage, C tier moblity.
3. Things like PoF Fire Weaver had A tier sustain and around B tier damage. In 1v2 it loses some efficiency due to the design and goes to maybe B+ sustain and C tier damage, C+ tier mobility.
4. A Core Ranger during this PoF era was outputting A tier sustain, A tier damage, B tier mobility in 1v1s. In team fights however this all dropped to B tier sustain, B tier damage.
5. Even a Mechanist now in EoD is only outputting around S tier sustain, C tier damage, B+ tier mobility.
6. A Willbender in contrast is outputting S+ tier damage, C tier sustain, S+ tier mobility.
7. Bunker Vindicators before the 5/10 patch, the way people were using them, were looking like D tier damage, S sustain in general with S+ vs condi, and B to A mobility depending on build. After the 5/10 patch, Bunker Vindicators are starting to look like S tier sustain A+ at worst, C to B damage output, B to A mobility. Now at first glance one could argue that this was somehow balanced in some way to the previously mentioned specs. However, the difference here is that all of the previously mentioned specs are ALL selfish 1v1 bunker duelists with little to no team support that lose efficiency as soon as they enter team fights. The Vindicator on the other hand, is a powerful 1v1 bunker duelist that is also a highly valued team support, that is also a strong team fighter.

What the problem with Vindicator is, is the same problem Arenanet keeps steering into where for some reason they over-buff the hell out of Support archetypes so the Supports are equally as strong in Team Fight, Roaming, Dueling, Bunkering, as non-support specs who have to build very specifically for a single job role like that. They seem to forget that to keep things balanced, a Support needs to only be a Support. A Team Fighter should only be a Team Fighter. A Roamer should only be a Roamer, a Side Node should be a Side Node. MAYBE sometimes you get something acceptable that is strong at both Team Fight and Roam as example, but no spec should ever breach the point where it is strong at 3x job roles or god forbid 4x job roles. <- When this kind of stuff happens this is when we see teams stacked with the same class because there is no viable reason to run anything else beyond it.

It's real simple. Things need to have trade-offs. If 9/10ths of the other builds in the game are only able to spec into being good at 1 job role or maybe 2, why allow a spec into this intra-class dynamic that is strong if not dominant at all 4 job roles? Come on now.

Right now, Guardian and Revenant are playing a different game than the other classes. Only Specters and Harbingers can hang and the only reason that is, is because they setup massive CC pits to help the teleport gods do their bursts. If it wasn't for the massive pulsing CC pits, even Specter and Harbinger would devolve back to DP Daredevil and Core Necro.

Edited May 12, 2022 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Curennos.9307]

41 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Alright, people who aren't getting this have not watched recent high tier play and have not gone against strong players who are trying hard wielding this build. And yeah, I'm talking about good players going against good players.

This is pretty to explain with a simple comparison.

These comparisons are based off of p2+ vs p2+ over the years.

1. Something like an old HoT Bunker Druid had S+ tier sustain and like D or E tier damage, C tier mobility.
2. Something like an old HoT Bunker Scrapper had S+ tier sustain and like D or E tier damage, C tier moblity.
3. Things like PoF Fire Weaver had A tier sustain and around B tier damage. In 1v2 it loses some efficiency due to the design and goes to maybe B+ sustain and C tier damage, C+ tier mobility.
4. A Core Ranger during this PoF era was outputting A tier sustain, A tier damage, B tier mobility in 1v1s. In team fights however this all dropped to B tier sustain, B tier damage.
5. Even a Mechanist now in EoD is only outputting around S tier sustain, C tier damage, B+ tier mobility.
6. A Willbender in contrast is outputting S+ tier damage, C tier sustain, S+ tier mobility.
7. Bunker Vindicators before the 5/10 patch, the way people were using them, were looking like D tier damage, S sustain in general with S+ vs condi, and B to A mobility depending on build. After the 5/10 patch, Bunker Vindicators are starting to look like S tier sustain A+ at worst, C to B damage output, B to A mobility. Now at first glance one could argue that this was somehow balanced in some way to the previously mentioned specs. However, the difference here is that all of the previously mentioned specs are ALL selfish 1v1 bunker duelists with little to no team support that lose efficiency as soon as they enter team fights. The Vindicator on the other hand, is a powerful 1v1 bunker duelist that is also a highly valued team support, that is also a strong team fighter.

What the problem with Vindicator is, is the same problem Arenanet keeps steering into where for some reason they over-buff the hell out of Support archetypes so the Supports are equally as strong in Team Fight, Roaming, Dueling, Bunkering, as non-support specs who have to build very specifically for a single job role like that. They seem to forget that to keep things balanced, a Support needs to only be a Support. A Team Fighter should only be a Team Fighter. A Roamer should only be a Roamer, a Side Node should be a Side Node. MAYBE sometimes you get something acceptable that is strong at both Team Fight and Roam as example, but no spec should ever breach the point where it is strong at 3x job roles or god forbid 4x job roles. <- When this kind of stuff happens this is when we see teams stacked with the same class because there is no viable reason to run anything else beyond it.

It's real simple. Things need to have trade-offs. If 9/10ths of the other builds in the game are only able to spec into being good at 1 job role or maybe 2, why allow a spec into this intra-class dynamic that is strong if not dominant at all 4 job roles? Come on now.

Right now, Guardian and Revenant are playing a different game than the other classes. Only Specters and Harbingers can hang and the only reason that is, is because they setup massive CC pits to help the teleport gods do their bursts. If it wasn't for the massive pulsing CC pits, even Specter and Harbinger would devolve back to DP Daredevil and Core Necro.

I probably should have added 'and without approaching it from a generic high level standpoint'. I don't disagree here but, to clarify, I was more hoping for detail. 'The spec is disproportionately powerful in multiple roles compared to the competition, both allied and enemy', is all well and good but doesn't really go anywhere - for example, being able to say Vindicator's cleanse, but personal and group-support oriented, outstrips(or -ed, rather, hopefully) both allied and enemy competition, and its disproportionate cleanse power can basically negate entire specs regardless of its own build is all well and good.

 

And then someone asks 'okay what's the problem, exactly', and then someone points to Treesong. Treesong gets nerfed and problem is some level of fixed, or not.

 

Mind, not trying to argue - just interested in the detail because I've seen you post about the forums and you seem more inclined to actually do that digging. Not like there's much else going on in the forums anyway.

[ArthurDent.9538]

2 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Alright, people who aren't getting this have not watched recent high tier play and have not gone against strong players who are trying hard wielding this build. And yeah, I'm talking about good players going against good players.

This is pretty to explain with a simple comparison.

These comparisons are based off of p2+ vs p2+ over the years.

1. Something like an old HoT Bunker Druid had S+ tier sustain and like D or E tier damage, C tier mobility.
2. Something like an old HoT Bunker Scrapper had S+ tier sustain and like D or E tier damage, C tier moblity.
3. Things like PoF Fire Weaver had A tier sustain and around B tier damage. In 1v2 it loses some efficiency due to the design and goes to maybe B+ sustain and C tier damage, C+ tier mobility.
4. A Core Ranger during this PoF era was outputting A tier sustain, A tier damage, B tier mobility in 1v1s. In team fights however this all dropped to B tier sustain, B tier damage.
5. Even a Mechanist now in EoD is only outputting around S tier sustain, C tier damage, B+ tier mobility.
6. A Willbender in contrast is outputting S+ tier damage, C tier sustain, S+ tier mobility.
7. Bunker Vindicators before the 5/10 patch, the way people were using them, were looking like D tier damage, S sustain in general with S+ vs condi, and B to A mobility depending on build. After the 5/10 patch, Bunker Vindicators are starting to look like S tier sustain A+ at worst, C to B damage output, B to A mobility. Now at first glance one could argue that this was somehow balanced in some way to the previously mentioned specs. However, the difference here is that all of the previously mentioned specs are ALL selfish 1v1 bunker duelists with little to no team support that lose efficiency as soon as they enter team fights. The Vindicator on the other hand, is a powerful 1v1 bunker duelist that is also a highly valued team support, that is also a strong team fighter.

What the problem with Vindicator is, is the same problem Arenanet keeps steering into where for some reason they over-buff the hell out of Support archetypes so the Supports are equally as strong in Team Fight, Roaming, Dueling, Bunkering, as non-support specs who have to build very specifically for a single job role like that. They seem to forget that to keep things balanced, a Support needs to only be a Support. A Team Fighter should only be a Team Fighter. A Roamer should only be a Roamer, a Side Node should be a Side Node. MAYBE sometimes you get something acceptable that is strong at both Team Fight and Roam as example, but no spec should ever breach the point where it is strong at 3x job roles or god forbid 4x job roles. <- When this kind of stuff happens this is when we see teams stacked with the same class because there is no viable reason to run anything else beyond it.

It's real simple. Things need to have trade-offs. If 9/10ths of the other builds in the game are only able to spec into being good at 1 job role or maybe 2, why allow a spec into this intra-class dynamic that is strong if not dominant at all 4 job roles? Come on now.

Right now, Guardian and Revenant are playing a different game than the other classes. Only Specters and Harbingers can hang and the only reason that is, is because they setup massive CC pits to help the teleport gods do their bursts. If it wasn't for the massive pulsing CC pits, even Specter and Harbinger would devolve back to DP Daredevil and Core Necro.

Bunk vindi is still D- tier damage right above support guard and below sup tempest and now has a very hard time stalling certain 1v1's because it can't effectively counter pressure while trying to not die. Dps vindi is still a major defensive liability with slow super telegraphed damage and still feels worse than herald in this regard. I don't know where people are finding these op vindicators but I haven't found them at least not on NA in ranked or at's.

Edited May 12, 2022 by ArthurDent.9538

[Buran.3796]

18 hours ago, felix.2386 said:

thanks anet, vindicator now does way too much damage for the sustain it still has.

   What are you talking about? The buffs in damage were done in secondary skills (NOT in gs #2 or gs #5 nor the evade), and the spec overall is garbage, at every game mode.

   Also I hardy see them in PvP matches (I don't run one, that's for sure), and the last MAT winner team was running...  like 0 Vindicatos?  Yeah, op.