A Plea for PvP

[Aalter.2950]

It's no secret that PvP in Guild Wars 2 is not perfect. After all, this game is a decade old and has been through a lot of changes. That being said, I think it's fair to say that it is in desperate need of some work.

Now, a lot of people complain about PvP, and about ArenaNet, so first I want to make it clear that this is *not* what I'm here to do. I happen to think that Guild Wars 2 is a really good game, my favorite game to play these days in fact. Additionally, I love the PvP in GW2 and can say that good PvP is what drew me to Guild Wars in the first place. There are  alot of things to love, many of which spring from a design philosphy of removing the barriers for entry so that success in PvP can be skill- and knowledge-based and not simply a manifestation of character/gear progression or money spent (P2W). And while I'd be happy to go on about the things I really like about Guild Wars 2's PvP, that's not exactly why I'm here. Well, it is in a sense.

I'm here because, after putting in what I think is fair to call "an above-average amount of time and effort" into Guild Wars 2's PvP, I've been struck by a series of relatively basic or fundamental things that make PvP so much more frustrating than it needs to be and to drive a lot of players away. Many of these things are dealt with from the beginning in other games, or prioritized and dealt with when the problem becomes apparent. I'm here because I think that very small list of things are what is stopping PvP in Guild Wars 2 from being MUCH more popular and not just more fun/engaging to the players but also more profitable for ArenaNet. I think GW2's PvP has what it takes to be a serious eSport that people spectate and participate in all over the world like other games I've put similar (or greater) time and effort into playing.

Before I continue, I just want to say a few things about myself: I am not a professional player. I do not play at a professional level, I don't stream, and I don't have a YT channel. I've considered those things in the past, creating content for this and other games, but never decided to move forward with it. A huge barrier for me is feeling like the game is something I'll want to play for a long time. I played WoW Arena at about 1700 elo, League of Legends in Platinum, MTG Arena at high Mythic (often placing top 100), Destiny 2 (at Fabled-Mythic) and now in my 1st and 2nd seasons playing GW2 PvP I've hit Platinum rank (and now broken top 100). So I'm not trying to speak for the highest-level players, I'm speaking from the perspective of a casual player who likes to *try* for high ranks. I also like to spend money on games if I'm enjoying spending time on them. I've put a lot of money into the aforementioned games, and into GW2, because I like giving back to the developers who are providing me with entertainment. In all of the previous cases, the things that drove me away from continuing to play (and spend money) had to do with the companies creating barriers for me to just play and enjoy myself, and not taking community concerns seriously. A HUGE part of what I like about ANet is that they seem to care, even a little bit, more than many other companies do.

The first set of problems I'd like to address are things that I feel ANet already has made effort to fix, but just haven't quite finished implementing them:
Ranked PvP in GW2 has a MASSIVE issue with people intentionally going AFK, disconnecting, intentionally feeding/match manipulation/wintrading, and above all, toxic and abusive behavior. There is an in-game report system, but it is really hard to tell how effective that has been for us. I continue being placed in matches with people I've reported for abusive chat towards me or other players, and I continue being placed in matches with players going AFK that I've reported "Idle" in the past. It's hard to feel like these reports do *anything* at all when that happens.
League of Legends used to be notorious for its toxic player base and very relaxed punishments. Eventually, Riot made a whole campaign to foster better sportsmanship and punish abusive behavior and "leavers" more harshly. Largely, it seemed to have worked pretty well by all stats (and anecdotally). I would really like to see something like this for Guild Wars 2.
1. Punish toxic/abusive chat more harshly and do the same for AFK et al (or create a solution such as kicking idle players to allow queued players to join, etc.)
2. Notify players when their reports have let to action against someone so they know that it made a difference (like Twitter and other platforms do).
3. Do something to incentivize normal sportsmanship, such as recognizing good/helpful/friendly players and maybe even giving them small in-game rewards. Many PvP games let players opt to recognize their allies for good behavior and it seems to work pretty well.
4. Communicate with us regularly, show us that there are resources dedicated specifically to keeping PvP fun and healthy. Give us better channels to communicate our concerns, suggestions, etc. We care, so we want to know that you do too!

The second set of things I want to bring up aren't so much "problems" as they are "suggestions" in terms of some aspects of PvP to reassess:
1. "No valid path to target." This mechanic seems to be applied very inconsistently and causes some abilities not to work as they seem like they should. I understand not allowing a Thief to shadowstep up and down certain terrain to prevent abuse, but this mechanic causes shadowsteps to often fail on normal but uneven ground just because of the way the place was constructed. Things like this undermine confidence in the mechanics of the game and drive people away from certain playstyles regardless of their power balance. It also applies to a lot of abilities it shouldn't. Smarter people than I can tell you more about this issue, but suffice to say: it really needs to be cleaned up!
2. More dedicated bugfixing/consistency QA. Why does Protection's 33% go to 39.6% when improved by 20% but Swiftness's 33% goes to 40% when improved by 20%? One of these is "33%" and one is actually "33.33-%" There are *tons* of things like this that the community has identified and in theory shouldn't be that hard to fix! Work with us to make your game better, we want to help.
3. More statistics reporting! There is no need to hoard data, giving access to statistics helps the community theorycraft and analyze themselves. Something that makes a lot of PvP games so self-policing is the amount of data there is to look at. Matchmaking data, winrates, and even more in-game stats like CC/boon uptime, damage prevented (through boons/barriers/etc included with "healing"), and maybe ways to view these things for past games (even just to "save" games to look at later). All the data that might be useful for balance patches is also useful to the community.
4. Events! More officially-sanctioned tournaments, PvP rewards, etc. to let us know PvP isn't a "deadend". Annual pro tournaments could be just the thing to bring a whole new group of PvPers to Guild Wars 2!

There are many things I'm leaving out here, but this post has already gone on long enough! I hope you can understand why I went through the trouble of writing all of this out. It's not an attack on ANet's developers or on Guild Wars 2 as a game, because I think they've done an incredible job with this game and I personally really enjoy it! It's *because* I love this game that I want to share my thoughts on some small changes that could go a LONG way in making the game better so I can continue playing it for a long time!

Also, feel free to add anything related that you think needs more visibility below. Thanks everyone and keep up the good work! <3

[VyPR.3412]

I hate to tell you, but there's no indication that any PVP devs (should that even be plural?)  are actually reading what's posted here anymore.

[Sahne.6950]

38 minutes ago, Aalter.2950 said:

. I think GW2's PvP has what it takes to be a serious eSport that people spectate and participate in all over the world like other games

They tried to make it a esport... it was horrible... they completly neglect pvp ever since.

[Vancho.8750]

1 hour ago, Sahne.6950 said:

They tried to make it a esport... it was horrible... they completly neglect pvp ever since.

I think they didn't try to make esport , they tried to force it without doing the work in game. It is like everything in the game even if something is good they drop it cause they got bored of it or the person in charge of it left. There is no continues development , no plan, no vision , it is throwing kitten at the wall to see what sticks, whatever doesn't they pretend it doesn't exist and even if it does it goes in Limbo at some point.   

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

4 hours ago, Vancho.8750 said:

I think they didn't try to make esport , they tried to force it without doing the work-

This needs restating. 

They tried to push e-sports with one of the most bunkery, non reactive metas imaginable. People -dont- like watching video games where nothing interesting happens for long periods of time (well, there's a fraction of people who do, but that isnt the GW2 target audience). The feedback they received on that seems to have been taken to heart, because since then we have never had more than one or two people at a time with big changes for the mode, and their attention was always divided at that. NCSoft must have dropped the axe on them after seeing that or something.

It -feels like- they literally treated this game like if they picked up thief, picked any build, then jumped into pvp thinking they wouldn't get obliterated for the next three months, and got mad that it didn't work immediately (or did so in front of a crowd they were hoping to impress with their raw talent). Yeeted by protagonist syndrome.  

 

It's really a crying shame. Give a couple teams some matching skins and this could easily draw competitive attention if the game didn't fall apart when two classes meet. WoW has been doing tourneys for fifteen years. There's no excuse why Anet can't borrow that model like Blizzard borrowed the skyscale. 

Edited June 2, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Luthan.5236]

Being esports - doesn't necessarily mean it is fun. I think I remember discussions where people mentioned it would be important that it is designed in a way that makes it interesting for spectators to watch. Main focus though should be the "fun" for the players.

And there are many other esport games with pretty dull/boring game modes - that a lot of people still seem to like.  (For example League of Legends.) Not a good idea trying to compete with those. (Horrible try with the Stronghold map and the PvE elements there. Those NPCs trying to attack the enemy base ... should never have been implemented into GW2.) When there are already a lot of more popular games for esports - you try your own/different thing instead.

As it is now ... the game is mainly bought by people for the PvE content - the story, achievements and stuff. (And even the group content like raiding - those players are in a minority.)

PvE and WvW (WvW less interesting and a lot of other MMORPG I think have better implementation of bigger group fights - where stuff is tied to the story and different factions) are just for the casual PvE player that wants a bit distraction. And the hardcore people trying to play this in a real competitive way ... well that amount of players is pretty small.

Edited June 2, 2022 by Luthan.5236

[JTGuevara.9018]

4 hours ago, Vancho.8750 said:

I think they didn't try to make esport , they tried to force it without doing the work in game. It is like everything in the game even if something is good they drop it cause they got bored of it or the person in charge of it left. There is no continues development , no plan, no vision , it is throwing kitten at the wall to see what sticks, whatever doesn't they pretend it doesn't exist and even if it does it goes in Limbo at some point.   

Oh YES they did. They had ESL support and everything. They had their paid sponsors, or the top 1% literally shilling on Twitch. I saw the whole thing transpire and collapse before my eyes.

[Eddbopkins.2630]

Can you make your post like 10 sentences or less. A wall of text about a 9 yr old bare minimum development game is to much for the devs to read and care about imo.