Some changes I would like to see in WvW

[elo.9860]

Restructuring alone won't fix the game mode and and this point Ashes of Creation might actually release sooner than Alliances.
 

- Now the most obvious one is Balance:  Nerf or remove Cele and Trailblazer's. Maybe also Minstrel. Other than that, let's wait for the balance patch and pray.
- Tiers: Remove T5 on EU. The tier/victory point system is just outdated. I hope you come up with something better for Alliances. We know so little aboute Alliances, it's really hard to give specific feedback.
- Warclaw: I would've said make it free, but you probably wanna sell PoF so whatever. At least make it easier to get. GW2 usually does well when it comes to accessibility, not so much in this case imo. At this point in the game, there's no reason for such a barrier of entry to exist. If the option to remove it from WvW is on the table then do that, but that's probably never gonna happen. Also, the dismount other players skill really shouldn't be the last skill you get. 
- PPT vs PPK: Encourage PPK more. This is a PvP gamemode. It's ridiculous that you can just dodge during the entire MU and then PPT the enitre map when your opponent is asleep and even be rewarded for it. I think you should cap participation at tier 2 if you only PPT and never PvP. That would mean that PvE only = no pips because you need at least tier 3 participation. You would need to continuously make kills in order to maintain tier 3 participation. Should there be rewards for PvE players in WvW? Sure. Should PvE exclusively be a viable strategy? No ty
- Access to Waypoints: This is another feature that makes it so easy to dodge a fight. Just OOC and then waypoint ezclap. Prevent people from using waypoints in enemy controlled territory. Restrict the usage of waypoints to castles, keeps and towers only. This would also make it harder to jump between borderlands and increase the strategic significance of holding objectives in enemy territory. A similar system is already in place with gliding, so it shouldn't be hard to implement. 

That's all for now. 

•  

[Custodio.6134]

50 minutes ago, Aqorex.3018 said:

Nerf or remove Cele and Trailblazer's. Maybe also Minstrel. Other than that, let's wait for the balance patch and pray.

Realistically, the removal of any stat-combo in WvW is unrealistic to ever happen. Nerfs: maybe. Full remove: nope, won´t happen. 
 

52 minutes ago, Aqorex.3018 said:

Tiers: Remove T5 on EU. The tier/victory point system is just outdated. I hope you come up with something better for Alliances. We know so little aboute Alliances, it's really hard to give specific feedback.

We already know what happens when you remove T5. because, we already had this for some time. You will get horrific queues in every matchup then
 

53 minutes ago, Aqorex.3018 said:

Warclaw: I would've said make it free, but you probably wanna sell PoF so whatever. At least make it easier to get.

Warclaw IS already pretty easy to get. the only "difficult" part is capturing a keep, which is also easily achieved by joining a public squad. Everything else you need is just a joke at this point. 
 

55 minutes ago, Aqorex.3018 said:

PPT vs PPK: Encourage PPK more. This is a PvP gamemode. It's ridiculous that you can just dodge during the entire MU and then PPT the enitre map when your opponent is asleep and even be rewarded for it. I think you should cap participation at tier 2 if you only PPT and never PvP. That would mean that PvE only = no pips because you need at least tier 3 participation. You would need to continuously make kills in order to maintain tier 3 participation. Should there be rewards for PvE players in WvW? Sure. Should PvE exclusively be a viable strategy? No ty

Interesting idea, but hard to judge if it will have the desired effect. It´s also heavily in favor of winning teams, and punishes losing/outnumbered teams even more. Which would result in the losing teams giving up even quicker, making the matches evern more of a stalemate. 
 

 

[anduriell.6280]

23 minutes ago, Custodio.6134 said:

Realistically, the removal of any stat-combo in WvW is unrealistic to ever happen. Nerfs: maybe. Full remove: nope, won´t happen. 

Removing Dire, and nerf all the rest 4+ stat combos should a thing anet should do ASAP.  4+ stat combos provide a more stats which is definitely a powercreep in game they should be closer to how Valkyrie currently works. The fact the balance team can't keep the same  stats amount  between different sets already speaks volumes about how they approach balance in this game. 

Also it is possible to "remove" an stat, Anet has done something "similar"  many times, you just end up needing to reselect  the stats of the equipment to the one of your liking after the "reset" . 

Quote

Interesting idea, but hard to judge if it will have the desired effect. It´s also heavily in favor of winning teams, and punishes losing/outnumbered teams even more. Which would result in the losing teams giving up even quicker, making the matches evern more of a stalemate. 

WvW needs something to "balance" things.  Right now the karma trains in WvW are just stupid, a farm bot mode in a pvp gamemode makes no sense. 

 

Edited June 19, 2022 by anduriell.6280

[Custodio.6134]

1 minute ago, anduriell.6280 said:

Also it is possible to "remove" an stat, Anet has done something "similar"  many times, you just end up needing to reselect  the stats of the equipment to the one of your liking. 

I never said that it is impossible. I just said, that it is unlikely to happen, unless ANet changes the gear-system in WvW to the same one that sPvP uses (which honestly, would be a good change as it takes gear advantages out of the equation). 

 

4 minutes ago, anduriell.6280 said:

WvW needs something to "balance" things.  Right now the karma trains in WvW are just stupid, a farm bot mode in a pvp gamemode makes no sense. 

correct. But why do karma-trains even exist? 
The system of how WvW works is not the only reason why ppl start k-training, because..... the system doesn´t force you to k-train in the first place. More realistically, it is the result of how players (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) decide to handle the siege-situation. the players decide not to defend stuff, NOT to fight for objectives. If the players would decide to defend objectives, to push into attacking groups, every siege would result in a fight. However, if you don´t defend, if you don´t decide to push the enemy then yeah, it´s gonna become a k-train. 

[elo.9860]

40 minutes ago, Custodio.6134 said:

We already know what happens when you remove T5. because, we already had this for some time. You will get horrific queues in every matchup then

You're probably right, because people would bandwagon the link with 3 servers. I mean you could lock transfers, but that's also not gonna happen because easy money for Anet.  Some people would definitely prefer to sit in queue so they can delude themselves into thinking that they're "skilled" players because their overstacked link is "winning" lul

[Gorani.7205]

1 hour ago, Custodio.6134 said:

More realistically, it is the result of how players (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) decide to handle the siege-situation. the players decide not to defend stuff, NOT to fight for objectives. If the players would decide to defend objectives, to push into attacking groups, every siege would result in a fight. However, if you don´t defend, if you don´t decide to push the enemy then yeah, it´s gonna become a k-train. 

This is a very valid point.

 

Defenders, under the current system only get participation to stop the decay timer (the "source" of a continuous reward system via reward tracks), if they are able to successfully do a "defend event" (10 min) and/or kill an attacking player (10 min) or siege (2 min) in the process.
Attackers get participation for building the siege (2min for each burst of supply spent), damaging the structure (2 min for each shot), for breaking a wall/gate, for killing a NPC guard (2min) for defeating the Lord (5min) and for capping the tower/keep (10 min). Additionally they can kill incoming dolyaks (the defenders can't reach to "escort") for a chance to resupply and gain participation (2 min).
If the siege took 15 min and then gets resolved (just a reference point) and the attacking side fails, it will have earned some sort of participation on the way and most likely nobody on the attacking team will have fallen below the active, 2 min mark. It can respawn somewhere and move to the next objective. If the defensive side failed, the chances are very high, that no enemy player was killed in the process (if you have superior numbers inside, you can jump on the attackers), you ran out of supply and are losing participation, because nothing during the fight was able to sustain the participation. You will respawn with a decay timer ticking down, rushing towards an enemy sentry or shrine to stop the loss of participation.

That's why k-training is so much better for no-brain & easy participation on the attacking side and players prefer that. Anet's decision to not reward participation for wall repairs any more and make ACs too weak to threaten attacking siege (it takes too long to kill a cata and isn't a threat to players after all the power creep) has further weakened the incentive to defend.

[Ronin.4501]

9 hours ago, Aqorex.3018 said:

- PPT vs PPK: Encourage PPK more. This is a PvP gamemode. It's ridiculous that you can just dodge during the entire MU and then PPT the enitre map when your opponent is asleep and even be rewarded for it. I think you should cap participation at tier 2 if you only PPT and never PvP. That would mean that PvE only = no pips because you need at least tier 3 participation. You would need to continuously make kills in order to maintain tier 3 participation. Should there be rewards for PvE players in WvW? Sure. Should PvE exclusively be a viable strategy? No ty

8 hours ago, Custodio.6134 said:

Interesting idea, but hard to judge if it will have the desired effect. It´s also heavily in favor of winning teams, and punishes losing/outnumbered teams even more. Which would result in the losing teams giving up even quicker, making the matches evern more of a stalemate.

 

While in theory this is a nice idea, in practicality it fails.  I played a game a long time ago where the PvP in the game was a complete afterthought, and originally the ONLY way for your character to rank up was through player kills.  Much like in this game, it promoted running around in massive blobs focusing on smaller groups to guarantee kills.  Most newer players who joined in playing this mode found it extremely difficult to gain rank early on, became discouraged and quit the game mode, leaving only the hardcore players left, and ultimately the PvP game mode was mostly devoid of players.

That being said, I am absolutely against Anet forcing PvE players into a PvP game mode that they don't want to take part in, as some servers are now full of players who simply wait at spawn for 9 minutes, run to spawn camp and flip it for another 10 minutes of participation, rinse and repeat, but otherwise contribute nothing of value to their server or WvW overall other than to skew the server population.

The problem is I don't really have an answer at the point because Anet has so badly bungled and mismanaged WvW for so long now that it feels like we're trying to put out a forest fire with a cup of water.  Do we get rid of PvE-associated rewards and remove the players who don't like PvP, which will likely result in half the servers (or more at this point?) being left with almost no population at all?  Or do we try to make PvP more inclusive and casual to bring in more players, which likely results in driving off the players who play this game just for the PvP?  I don't know anymore. 😞

[Gotejjeken.1267]

10 hours ago, Aqorex.3018 said:

- PPT vs PPK: Encourage PPK more. This is a PvP gamemode. It's ridiculous that you can just dodge during the entire MU and then PPT the enitre map when your opponent is asleep and even be rewarded for it. I think you should cap participation at tier 2 if you only PPT and never PvP. That would mean that PvE only = no pips because you need at least tier 3 participation. You would need to continuously make kills in order to maintain tier 3 participation. Should there be rewards for PvE players in WvW? Sure. Should PvE exclusively be a viable strategy? No ty
- Access to Waypoints: This is another feature that makes it so easy to dodge a fight. Just OOC and then waypoint ezclap. Prevent people from using waypoints in enemy controlled territory. Restrict the usage of waypoints to castles, keeps and towers only. This would also make it harder to jump between borderlands and increase the strategic significance of holding objectives in enemy territory. A similar system is already in place with gliding, so it shouldn't be hard to implement. 

That's all for now. 

•  

 

Encouraging PPK more will just lead to more blobs rolling over small enemies, with the blob thinking they are 'skilled'.  Outside of that it'd just encourage ganking more people without warclaws at the tails because you now need to.  None of that seems healthy for the mode or encourages actual skill, which I think you're after.

For the waypoints, the only classes 'ezclap'ing out of fights are stealth heavy ones (thieves, at times mesmers) and ones that are built to run (spellbreaker, willbender, etc.).  The rest tend to get rolled or caught eventually as the opposing side goes OOC and mounts up to catch them. 

Basically, if we're restricting waypoints then we need to also apply revealed inside structures at all times so you can't have thieves 'ezclap' flipping things with the absurd range shadow portal has.  Porting people into structures should no longer be viable unless the entire opposing side is sleeping as they'd see red dots.  

[Hotride.2187]

Tbh if you remove cele/trailblazer you'll likely end up with an even deader roaming. I barely see any of the power roamers/duelists that I used to see. I kinda doubt they'll return even if you remove the broken statlines. I'm all for it, but I feel the dmg is done. I know I won't play more even if you removed the statlines - theres just nothing to do, duel spot has been dead for months.

Nuke/remove minstrel would be a good change for roaming, in zergs I doubt it makes a big difference whether you have some extra hp and armor on 2/5 of each party.

For warclaw, sure why not. But I guess anyone who is new and is discouraged by no mount, will likely be discouraged by the rest of wvw even more. Tags don't use mounts anyway.

For PPT vs PPK  I doubt that will change anything. A lot of players (especially on ebg) are not there for actual fights. And karma trains will get defender kills so...

For waypoints kinda w/e as well, not like dedicated roamers/zergs will waypoint back when things go south. And the rest is usually camp flipping at home spawn.

Edited June 19, 2022 by Hotride.2187

[elo.9860]

22 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

Encouraging PPK more will just lead to more blobs rolling over small enemies, with the blob thinking they are 'skilled'.  Outside of that it'd just encourage ganking more people without warclaws at the tails because you now need to.  None of that seems healthy for the mode or encourages actual skill, which I think you're after.

For the waypoints, the only classes 'ezclap'ing out of fights are stealth heavy ones (thieves, at times mesmers) and ones that are built to run (spellbreaker, willbender, etc.).  The rest tend to get rolled or caught eventually as the opposing side goes OOC and mounts up to catch them. 

Basically, if we're restricting waypoints then we need to also apply revealed inside structures at all times so you can't have thieves 'ezclap' flipping things with the absurd range shadow portal has.  Porting people into structures should no longer be viable unless the entire opposing side is sleeping as they'd see red dots.  

Ok, let me try to explain again. I'm not saying that kills should be worth more than they are now. Obviously you also don't want objectives to be worthless either, otherwise people won't defend = less content. What bothers me is that it's a viable strategy to just not log in during the day/prime time and just play during the night or early morning instead when your enemy is asleep so you can PPT in peace. The proposed change would deincentivize said strategy. 

I mean sure, it would still be viable if the goal is to "win" your MU, but that's an entirely seperate issue. As i said, the tier + victory point system is outdated and not that great.

As for ganking smaller numbers, that's just the reality of the game mode sadly. That's like every open world/sandbox PvP game mode ever. Nothing you can do about it other than just playing sPvP or GvG instead.

[Zyreva.1078]

8 hours ago, Gorani.7205 said:

If the defensive side failed, the chances are very high, that no enemy player was killed in the process (if you have superior numbers inside, you can jump on the attackers), you ran out of supply and are losing participation, because nothing during the fight was able to sustain the participation.

Defending objectives should always involve fighting the attackers. Rewarding stalling from a safe position does not lead to healthy gameplay. The probem is simply that players don't want to fight each other (or only want to "fight" when they have a clear numbers advantage) and the game does nothing to encourage fighting, let alone taking fair fights and the risks involved. That's the main reason why players don't defend (and primarily attack undefended objectives).

In order to promote fights for objectives instead of PvDoor they could for example drastically decrease the "base" reward for taking objectives and then increase rewads for successful offense and defense per player killed during the event. In oder to discourage stacking and outnumbering they would have to start splitting rewards between players instead of multiplying everything, unfortunately the devs are too fond of handing out participation rewards like candy while being seemingly allergic to rewarding skillful and risky gameplay. (It's the same in PvE where mindless open world zerging is more profitable than doing harder content.)

Edited June 19, 2022 by UmbraNoctis.1907