Anet cannot count participation and this is a FACT

[Zok.4956]

33 minutes ago, Karagee.6830 said:

I'm gonna take screenshots of home border and EBG with 'outnumbered'. Would that be enough for you?

Enough for what?

That you are unhappy with the situation of your server? I already understand that and can relate.  I probably would be unhappy too if my server would have been "full" for a year without a link and would be in T5.

That the current server linking system is not very good and that there are too big population imbalances? I think we all know that. Even Anet knows it, that's the reason they started working on the Alliance system to replace the current system.

That Gandara is treated unfairly and differently from other servers by Anet? A few screenshots with outnumbered buff can not prove that. For this we would need internal system data that we as players do not have.

That the system doesn't count the population the way Anet said it did? A few screenshots with outnumbered buff can not prove that. For this we would need internal system data that we as players do not have.

[Dawdler.8521]

1 hour ago, Karagee.6830 said:

I'm gonna take screenshots of home border and EBG with 'outnumbered'. Would that be enough for you? As I said before the 'outnumbered' buff could be applied incorrectly also, but I don't think you'll find any person that would argue that, since everyone has experienced it to be working properly.

Outnumbered on a world where everyone gave up from reset doesnt really mean that much. It barely mean anything on any full world because they are frequently outnumbered too. I've even seen EB complain about it in chat despite holding the entirety of it, lol.

Gandara doesnt have any people. We know.

Edit: Just logged on and within 1 minute saw a warning of outnumbered on GBL due to an enemy zerg attacking a keep, lol. Outnumbered just means the enemy are more than you. Which they of course, always are for some reason.

Edited June 22, 2022 by Dawdler.8521

[Karagee.6830]

4 minutes ago, Zok.4956 said:

Enough for what?

That you are unhappy with the situation of your server? I already understand that and can relate.  I probably would be unhappy too if my server would have been "full" for a year without a link and would be in T5.

That the current server linking system is not very good and that there are too big population imbalances? I think we all know that. Even Anet knows it, that's the reason they started working on the Alliance system to replace the current system.

That Gandara is treated unfairly and differently from other servers by Anet? A few screenshots with outnumbered buff can not prove that. For this we would need internal system data that we as players do not have.

That the system doesn't count the population the way Anet said it did? A few screenshots with outnumbered buff can not prove that. For this we would need internal system data that we as players do not have.

Enough to prove to you that we are Full according to Anet and at the same time we are indeed outnumbered every day of the week except 2 nights. Which is circumstantil evidence that Anet is helpless abount calculating participation.

Edited June 22, 2022 by Karagee.6830

[Karagee.6830]

12 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Outnumbered on a world where everyone gave up from reset doesnt really mean that much. It barely mean anything on any full world because they are frequently outnumbered too. I've even seen EB complain about it in chat despite holding the entirety of it, lol.

Gandara doesnt have any people. We know.

Ah the strawman. I did not plan to do this while tanking, which seems to be over anyway.

What kind of people you are on FSP is none of my concern, nobody does that on Gandara. We normally are outnumbered and taking a beating in PPT. Most of the times we are second only because one of the other teams is outnunbering us and the other team so much, that they can decided who to put in second and third place in a skirmish. This is what's happening currently with BB romping through the night and AG owning the morning. 

Gandara does not have nearly enough people and if we are full 15-20 servers should be full.

Edited June 22, 2022 by Karagee.6830

[Dawdler.8521]

4 minutes ago, Karagee.6830 said:

Ah the strawman.

The strawman of what, that Gandara doesnt have any people because enemies outnumber them?

Edited June 22, 2022 by Dawdler.8521

[Karagee.6830]

6 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

The strawman of what, that Gandara doesnt have any people because enemies outnumber them?

You implied I was trying to do this on 'a server that gave up from reset' which is the exact opposite of the everyday reality on Gandara and I wasn't planning on doing this while tanking. An exemplary strawman argument, bordering on trolling, if I ever saw one. 

Edited June 22, 2022 by Karagee.6830

[Zok.4956]

5 minutes ago, Karagee.6830 said:

Enough to prove to you that we are Full according to Anet and at the same time we are indeed outnumbered every day of the week except 2 nights. Which is circumstantil evidence that Anet is helpless abount calculating participation.

No, that's not really enough to prove that Anet doesn't know what they are doing. The population of the two servers in my link is actually "full" and "very high" and I see a lot of outnumbered buff during the week. I think all population thresholds were lowered at some time in the past.

 

[Karagee.6830]

4 minutes ago, Zok.4956 said:

No, that's not really enough to prove that Anet doesn't know what they are doing. The population of the two servers in my link is actually "full" and "very high" and I see a lot of outnumbered buff during the week. I think all population thresholds were lowered at some time in the past.

 

Is this impression of being outnumbered also reflected and corroborated by enemy servers having a mid-300 PPT tick when you see the little red icon and generally a more pedestrian 200+ tick while you are hovering around 50 and can barely defend your EB keep and garrison and sometimes not even those? I'm curious.

Edited June 22, 2022 by Karagee.6830

[Dawdler.8521]

8 minutes ago, Karagee.6830 said:

You implied I was trying to do this on 'a server that gave up from reset' which is the exact opposite of the everyday reality on Gandara and I wasn't planning on doing this while tanking. An exemplary strawman argument, bordering on trolling, if I ever saw one. 

No I imply you are trying to use outnumbered as absolutely pointless evidence for the fact we know Gandara is bottom in T5 which mean the other servers it outnumbers it. Because we know it has a low population. But we all get outnumbered. Even T1 get outnumbered. Your enemy servers could have 20 in total where you have 5 and you'd be constantly outnumbered too, you wouldnt say 10 people as population is particularly healthy on a world?

You keep trying to punch in the point that it's wrong over and over and over again. As I said: We know.

[Karagee.6830]

11 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

No I imply you are trying to use outnumbered as absolutely pointless evidence for the fact we know Gandara is bottom in T5 which mean the other servers it outnumbers it. 

No I'm trying to use it to disprove the notion that since we are full we must have enough people playing.

11 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

But we all get outnumbered. Even T1 get outnumbered. Your enemy servers could have 20 in total where you have 5 and you'd be constantly outnumbered too, you wouldnt say 10 people as population is particularly healthy on a world?

Those are fluctuations which are physiological in different time slots. Take note that my claim was that we are outnumbered on home or EBG or both for long periods of times in T5 which has the lowest participation among all tiers. And we are still outnumbered when people are mobilised to defend, sometimes even after a tag comes. I didn't claim we are outnumbered in a vacuum (read: roaming on enemy borderlands for example or while we have a 200 PPT score or it's 2am on a Wednesday).

Edited June 22, 2022 by Karagee.6830

[Zok.4956]

26 minutes ago, Karagee.6830 said:

No I'm trying to use it to disprove the notion that since we are full we must have enough people playing.

If a server is "full" for a long time it only means the server must have an amount of  "player playtime in WvW" above the "full" threshold for a long time. Like every other server (except Baruch that never is "full" regardless how overstacked it is).

Even a server that has the biggest population of all "full" servers and has no link could have a lot less "players/playtime" than two servers that are linked (i.e. the smallest "full" server and a "medium" server"). But as we do not know the exact numbers of the thresholds and the actual activity/population numbers of all servers this is just a guess.

Fact is: The curent system is not fine grained enough (Anets statement why they work on Alliances).

 

[Karagee.6830]

5 hours ago, Zok.4956 said:

If a server is "full" for a long time it only means the server must have an amount of  "player playtime in WvW" above the "full" threshold for a long time. Like every other server (except Baruch that never is "full" regardless how overstacked it is).

Even a server that has the biggest population of all "full" servers and has no link could have a lot less "players/playtime" than two servers that are linked (i.e. the smallest "full" server and a "medium" server"). But as we do not know the exact numbers of the thresholds and the actual activity/population numbers of all servers this is just a guess.

Fact is: The curent system is not fine grained enough (Anets statement why they work on Alliances).

 

Ok and because the system doesn't work and it's the only one we have: either make 3 servers like BB (if it can be done for 1 it can be done for 3) or rotate the servers in the sin bin for 2 months. That is only fair. It can't be that only 1 server has the worst of all possible worlds for stretches of almost 1 year.

Edited June 22, 2022 by Karagee.6830

[Zyreva.1078]

10 minutes ago, Karagee.6830 said:

Ok and because the system doesn't work and it's the only one we have: either make 3 servers like BB (if it can be done for 1 it can be done for 3) or rotate the servers in the sin bin for 2 months. That is only fair. It can't be that only 1 server has the worst of all possible worlds for stretches of almost 1 year.

If they could make any server "like BB" - why wouldn't they make every server like BB - and achieve perfect balance?

[Karagee.6830]

 

4 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

If they could make any server "like BB" - why wouldn't they make every server like BB - and achieve perfect balance?

That they can manually set things is evident as BB has a much larger population than Gandara and it's never full. So it's just a matter of wanting it. BB works in its own ways: it does not have a population large enough to contend for T1 but large enough to be sort of middle of the pack. So if everything else is worse, then yeah create 3 BB with a much higher Full threshold than the other servers and then never give these 3 servers a link. Creating 3 new servers would be a cleaner solution, but this would work also. Until we have alliance in the next 10 years.

Edited June 22, 2022 by Karagee.6830

[Zyreva.1078]

2 minutes ago, Karagee.6830 said:

That they can manually set things is evident as BB has a much larger population than Gandara and it's never full. So it's just a matter of wanting it. BB works in its own ways: it does not have a population large enough to contend for T1 but large enough to be sort of middle of the pack. So if everything else is worse, then yeah create 3 BB with a much higher Full threshold than the other servers and then never give these 3 servers a link. Creating 3 new servers would be a much faster solution.

As you said "BB works in its own ways". Doesn't mean opening and unlinking other servers ends up with similar results.

[Karagee.6830]

Just now, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

As you said "BB works in its own ways". Doesn't mean opening and unlinking other servers ends up with similar results.

And you know this because it has been tried before? We have one example that works and no example that does not work, don't we? When I say BB works in its own way, I mean that their situation is not ideal, but it's also nowhere as bad as Gandara's.

[Zyreva.1078]

Players have proven to be notoriously bad at balancing server populations by themselves if given too much freedom. So it is highly unlikely that more open unlinked servers somehow end up with more balanced results.

[Yakez.7561]

All these people who play 1 account... and have their CORRECT opinion. So tell you a story. I have 5 WvW accounts that I play on EU and NA. Different servers, but Gandara is my Main since day 1. Would not call Gandara empty server community wise, since yes it have theoretically enough people, open tags and guilds. But they just do not play outside weekend evenings. Gandara is old, literally. Gandara was closed majority of last 5 years, with periodic bandwagon on a link. Even if we had core Gandara players, they just grew up, have jobs, families now.  There is 0 influx of new and young players that can ppt all day long. This why when Gandara gets a link with younger population it suddenly go up to T1. They do not play at all at  weekday night and morning. So in theory player numbers checks out, in reality Gandara coverage only partially offset by high average player experience on Gandara, like ability to hold multiple borders with single 40 man squad against 2-3 full enemy blobs + multiple ppt groups is about Gandara.

 

As the result situation like at todays midnight is average for last YEAR on Gandara. Gandara have 7! people on open Discord tag + 5 roamers against at least 3 20-30 man BB groups, 1 big AG group on ALL BORDERS. 7 people Carl! Queues on Gandara, yeah can see it once a week.

 

Like it is a joke when you actually play other servers and see how TOTALLY imbalanced current population. Where full Gandara is like conquest team where people go afk every other minute of the match, where open WSR and their link looks like pretty balanced couple of ppt and fighting guilds with stable EBG queue, only to be smashed by INSANE numbers and coverage of Deso + RoF, that have everything all the time and the queues.

 

Current gaming experience in WvW is kitten. You can only rely on account sprawl to have guaranteed content every evening, where you can actually look for balanced fights through your list of Discord servers. Otherwise you can stuck on Gandara or unlinked Deso for month without any real hope on fair mathups and content. Congrats Anet my Discord server list make better job than multimillion company.

Edited June 23, 2022 by Yakez.7561
gramma

[Zok.4956]

9 hours ago, Yakez.7561 said:

Would not call Gandara empty server community wise, since yes it have theoretically enough people, open tags and guilds. But they just do not play outside weekend evenings.

(...)

They do not play at all at  weekday night and morning. So in theory player numbers checks out, in reality Gandara coverage only partially offset by high average player experience on Gandara, like ability to hold multiple borders with single 40 man squad against 2-3 full enemy blobs + multiple ppt groups is about Gandara.

It is not really that much different for a lot of other servers, even the linked ones. Even in T1/T2/T3 EU.

WvW has 24/7 long matchups, but only a few overstacked servers have the full-time coverage for this.

On my server (not Gandara), depending on our link (and the servers we are playing against), we could have good fights (if we have the same prime-time) for a few hours. But we usually also have the situation not having enough players to fight against enemy blobs most times of day.  And against some servers, after all enemy blob commanders switch off and go to bed, we could flip/reset keeps and SMC with only a handful of players.

That servers have the same total "player playtime in WvW per week" but different prime-time and different daily and weekly coverage is not something that Anet can take into account in the current system. And I doubt this would be possible with the Alliance system.

 

9 hours ago, Yakez.7561 said:

how TOTALLY imbalanced current population.

Yes, it is. Population imbalance and different weekday and time-of-day coverage is a problem for years. Anet hopes that Alliances is the solution to this problem.

 

11 hours ago, Karagee.6830 said:

Ok and because the system doesn't work and it's the only one we have: either make 3 servers like BB (if it can be done for 1 it can be done for 3) or rotate the servers in the sin bin for 2 months. That is only fair. It can't be that only 1 server has the worst of all possible worlds for stretches of almost 1 year.

There is another easy and fast solution: Players unhappy with the current situation could transfer to other (empty/low/medium) servers that better match their own prime-time play-time. This could  have two benefits: 

One: The players that transferred do not have to experience the situation on Gandara anymore and can join with their friends on other servers and can play together with them.

Two: Gandara will go from "full" to "very high" (and maybe lower pop) and Gandara maybe also gets a link and the situation for the players that stayed on Gandara will probably also become better.

And maybe: If the server is not "full" anymore all (former) Gandara players and their friends can transfer back to Gandara, if they are fast, before it's "full" again because of this transfers.

 

 

[Karagee.6830]

48 minutes ago, Zok.4956 said:

It is not really that much different for a lot of other servers, even the linked ones. Even in T1/T2/T3 EU.

Yeah and what happens after you have been outnumbered for a week? You drop a tier and the following week things are balanced. Exactly to which tier should we drop to have a fair match? T6? T7?

The point is we almost never have good, fair fights and we are stuck in that condition for 10 months at a time without being able to do anything about it ourselves because we can't even get guild members on our server.

48 minutes ago, Zok.4956 said:

There is another easy and fast solution: Players unhappy with the current situation could transfer to other (empty/low/medium) servers that better match their own prime-time play-time. 

 

So you are saying the solution is splitting our guilds, playing with people we don't want to play with, playing against our friends instead of with them and destroy our community? And maybe we have to pay for this as well? Don't you think it's more likely people would simply stop playing the game at all than going down such a path?

Besides think about it: if they let us transfer for free to a medium server (no 500 gems), we'd likely all transfer together and lo and behold, Blacktide suddenly goes from Medium to Full and has no link for a year. Whoopsies. The problem is not the name Gandara, the problem is that the system is not fit for purpose, so either let us be like BB (and open us) or rotate the unlinked servers among all Full and Very High populations servers.

I urge you to think of a viable practical solution that does not involve completely destroying communities because you know what? After us the problem will not go away. If we move to a different server, that server will have the same exact problem and if we kill our community and split to 10 different servers, the only thing we would achieve is to simply shift the problem onto the next server in line: likely Desolation and after them SFR and Riverside. Maybe they should also start transferring now?

Edited June 23, 2022 by Karagee.6830

[Yakez.7561]

40 minutes ago, Zok.4956 said:

It is not really that much different for a lot of other servers, even the linked ones. Even in T1/T2/T3 EU.

WvW has 24/7 long matchups, but only a few overstacked servers have the full-time coverage for this.

On my server (not Gandara), depending on our link (and the servers we are playing against), we could have good fights (if we have the same prime-time) for a few hours. But we usually also have the situation not having enough players to fight against enemy blobs most times of day.  And against some servers, after all enemy blob commanders switch off and go to bed, we could flip/reset keeps and SMC with only a handful of players.

That servers have the same total "player playtime in WvW per week" but different prime-time and different daily and weekly coverage is not something that Anet can take into account in the current system. And I doubt this would be possible with the Alliance system.

 

Yes, it is. Population imbalance and different weekday and time-of-day coverage is a problem for years. Anet hopes that Alliances is the solution to this problem.

 

There is another easy and fast solution: Players unhappy with the current situation could transfer to other (empty/low/medium) servers that better match their own prime-time play-time. This could  have two benefits: 

One: The players that transferred do not have to experience the situation on Gandara anymore and can join with their friends on other servers and can play together with them.

Two: Gandara will go from "full" to "very high" (and maybe lower pop) and Gandara maybe also gets a link and the situation for the players that stayed on Gandara will probably also become better.

And maybe: If the server is not "full" anymore all (former) Gandara players and their friends can transfer back to Gandara, if they are fast, before it's "full" again because of this transfers.

 

 

 

Like you missed the part, where I actively play on multiple servers? Also what other EU server goes open for several weeks a year at best to flip back to full every single time? Like for last 5 years? Point about Gandara that it is not full when you apply common sense, yet we are told by Anet and some, mostly Deso/FSP/Vabbi people otherwise, since well we are a bit of a rivals. And also people often apply Gandara full image of 2017 Gandara to current year (when we actually were full with morning crew + bandwagon link).

 

I log into my Aurora Glade account right now in the morning  (same Matchup as Gandara), I see open tag on EBG taking t3 Bravost with 20 ppl. I log into Gandra I see EWP that is taken by 5-10 roamers. I log into WSR I see multiple French groups of 10 flipping things. ALL these servers have links and not full. And when I log Deso... yeah KEKW this is probably one full EU server, but look it have open link!

 

In theory WvW matchmaking update should fix all that. But as we know it is not actively developed and build upon bunch of  lies. Yet people play WvW right now, and Gandara players are the same as any Anet customer, yet to receive normal matchup in almost a year. Why I should transfer my main when I am friendly neighborhood with dozens of people on Gandara and probably 80% of my favorite open tag there? All I see artificial barriers and manual manipulation of EU population by Anet, and lest be real they screw up whit this population on current relink bigtime. Like it is simple, Anet fail to do EU matchmaking and it is obvious. All what Gandara players do is simple plea for answers from developer. 

Edited June 23, 2022 by Yakez.7561

[Valdel.7325]

19 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Outnumbered on a world where everyone gave up from reset doesnt really mean that much. 

I'm a big admirer of your forum input and Karagee's effort to help his community is laudable. Anecdotal evidence is rarely accepted outside of specific areas, but for Gandarans, it's all true and debilitating. You hope you can have your Guild stick together, because you can't get any players to refresh it and that eats away at the collective psyche of the server over time in T5. It's hard to explain to others, your enjoyment and game anticipation get wiped away quite quickly when skill just meets numbers. That's not a different experience to most servers but to have it for so long is. So in anyway you can, please support us, we all love this game mode and care about the game and should outside of the banter, have an empathy for each other's plight. FREE GANDARA.

Edited June 23, 2022 by Valdel.7325
punctuation

[Zok.4956]

11 minutes ago, Karagee.6830 said:

So you are saying the solution is splitting our guilds, play with people we don't enjoy playing with, play against our friends instead of with them and destroy our community? And maybe we have to pay for this as well?

No, I'm not saying that players and guilds transferring to other servers is "the" solution. But it could be "a" solution for some and for the remaining server.

 

33 minutes ago, Karagee.6830 said:

Don't you think it's more likely people would simply stop playing the game at all than going down such a path?

That could also be "a" solution/consequence for some.

 

29 minutes ago, Karagee.6830 said:

Besides think about it: if they let us transfer for free to a medium server (no 500 gems), maybe we'd all transfer together and lo and behold, Blacktide suddenly goes from Medium to Full and has no link for a year. Whoopsies.

Of course. Some server will always get the "special treatment" in the current system. It was Kodash before, now it is Gandara and maybe in the future it will be another server.

 

12 minutes ago, Karagee.6830 said:

I urge you to think of a viable solution

There is none that is viable for all worlds/players in the current system.

We have 27 worlds in EU and 5 Tiers (5*3=15) which means that 3 worlds (probably the ones with the biggest "total players WvW playtime per week/month" numbers) will not get a link.  And if those worlds will continue for a long time to have the "biggest" numbers, they will continue to have no link for a long time.

Sure, there are also other alternatives, like give Gandara the BB "never-full" treatment, remove the "full" status for all servers and open all servers for transfers at any time, remove one tier, add or delete servers, remove the linking-system completely, add more tiers, working faster on the Alliance system, etc. etc.  But they all have their short-time and long-time (negative) consequences.

 

[Karagee.6830]

9 minutes ago, Zok.4956 said:

Sure, there are also other alternatives, like give Gandara the BB "never-full" treatment, remove the "full" status for all servers and open all servers for transfers at any time, remove one tier, add or delete servers, remove the linking-system completely, add more tiers, working faster on the Alliance system, etc. etc.  But they all have their short-time and long-time (negative) consequences.

 

What exactly is the danger of opening Gandara? That from being this mythologically largest server we double or triple in size? Are there enough players on EU for it to happen?

To match BB Gandara should increase its population by 50% looking at K+D numbers, so how about this: set us to full when we reach BB's numbers. In other words, use BB's numbers as the benchmark and threshold to determine if the unlinked servers (which are going to be permanently unlinked just like BB) are full or not. At worst we will end playing each other T5 with similar numbers, but seeing BB can compete against linked servers I very much doubt that would happen. This solution requires only simple manual changes on Anet's part...

Edited June 23, 2022 by Karagee.6830

[Chaba.5410]

11 hours ago, Karagee.6830 said:

What exactly is the danger of opening Gandara? That from being this mythologically largest server we double or triple in size? Are there enough players on EU for it to happen

If Anet *is* using Gandara as a population benchmark like they've done with BG in NA, opening Gandara would mean reversing the general trend of the last few years of trying to get players to spread out into other worlds.  In other words, it could have an unseen impact across all of EU and not only for Gandara.  It would be better for a small link to be added instead.