RNG: Guess I put this in the wrong spot so I will move it here.

[Emberfoot.6847]

23 hours ago, Natedog.7549 said:

The game is rated for 13+ year olds right? Has gambling mechanics in the cash shop. Ecto gambling skrit. A casino in PoF. 

Didn't pokemon red get rated higher for a casino with no way to spend real money on. Lol

Not defending or arguing a point either way, just a note. Pokemon Red was rated "E for everybody" or like 3+ when it launched. It was only more recently on a relaunch they made it a 12+ due to the casino thing. 

[Emberfoot.6847]

I think it would be helpful if they added % chance rates to the preview. I think it would also be good if there weren't "exclusives". That said the current system is firstly one heck of a lot better than most other lootboxes (all exclusives that I can think of are cosmetics or fluff), and as others have pointed out, you CAN earn keys by completing maps etc.

Another thing I find amusing is that next to noone ever even mentions the Mystic Forge, which can function in an extremely similar way, but is actually MORE central to necessary mechanics. 

[Gibson.4036]

3 minutes ago, Emberfoot.6847 said:

Another thing I find amusing is that next to noone ever even mentions the Mystic Forge, which can function in an extremely similar way, but is actually MORE central to necessary mechanics. 

Are there things besides precursors gambling and clovers? All the MForging I've done are for defined recipes that always give the same result.

[Emberfoot.6847]

31 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

Are there things besides precursors gambling and clovers? All the MForging I've done are for defined recipes that always give the same result.

The main thing I was thinking of IS the clover and pre gambling, but also even promoting materials involves rng in the output quantity. The MF itself is something that you cannot actually avoid anywhere near as easily as BL chests was more my point though. Before anyone says about "but you can buy BL keys for cash", that is true, but you can do the same for MF gambling and ecto gambling, it just takes more steps.

[Natedog.7549]

2 minutes ago, Emberfoot.6847 said:

The main thing I was thinking of IS the clover and pre gambling, but also even promoting materials involves rng in the output quantity. The MF itself is something that you cannot actually avoid anywhere near as easily as BL chests was more my point though. Before anyone says about "but you can buy BL keys for cash", that is true, but you can do the same for MF gambling and ecto gambling, it just takes more steps.

If the mystic toilet toke gems with each flush then there would be a problem. There are other ways to get clovers and precursors without rng or real money.  

One could easily ignore the tiolet rng if they don't care about legendaries (or upgrading with spirit shards). Not like there are exclusive limited-time only skins in there.

[Emberfoot.6847]

7 minutes ago, Natedog.7549 said:

If the mystic toilet toke gems with each flush then there would be a problem. There are other ways to get clovers and precursors without rng or real money.  

One could easily ignore the tiolet rng if they don't care about legendaries (or upgrading with spirit shards). Not like there are exclusive limited-time only skins in there.

But "not caring about legendaries" is the same sort of thing as "not caring about BL exclusives", except that the legies have more utility than any other weapons, exclusives don't. Either way I am not trying to defend or get rid of either, just point out the similarities. 

 

Edit: and in regards to your "if the MF took gems per flush" part, that's exactly my point. The keys or the items to flush are BOTH available either in game or via gems.

Edited June 22, 2022 by Emberfoot.6847

[Gibson.4036]

I thought precursor gambling was pretty much a thing of the past with the collections achievements.

I only have two legendaries at this point, so I've only used an accumulation of clovers from reward tracks and monthly login. I've got enough for one more legendary before I have to decide whether I want to MForge for more. I thought, at this point, that the drop rate is so heavily researched it's not much like gambling. You just have to know you'll sink a certain amount of MCoins to get the amount of clovers you need.

I guess that's technically still gambling, just with clear expectations. The rate isn't so low that you might end up with (almost) nothing, like with BL chests, though.

For that matter, then, getting dark matter requires similar gambling. I know some people just stack the stuff from all the exotics they accumulate, but I typically have to buy the cheapest exotics I can get until I salvage enough DM. And he RNG is swingy enough that sometimes I have runs of several exotic pieces where I don't get any at all. It evens out over the long haul, of course.

Edited June 22, 2022 by Gibson.4036

[Emberfoot.6847]

1 minute ago, Gibson.4036 said:

I thought precursor gambling was pretty much a thing of the past with the collections achievements.

I only have two legendaries at this point, so I've only used an accumulation of clovers from reward tracks and monthly login. I've got enough for one more legendary before I have to decide whether I want to MForge for more. I thought, at this point, that the drop rate is so heavily researched it's not much like gambling. You just have to know you'll sink a certain amount of MCoins to get the amount of clovers you need.

I guess that's technically still gambling, just with clear expectations. The rate isn't so low that you might end up with (almost) nothing, like with BL chests, though.

For that matter, then, getting dark matter requires similar gambling. I know some people just stack the stuff from all the exotics they accumulate, but I typically have to buy the cheapest exotics I can get until I salavage enough DM.

I have made a few more legendaries than that,  and I have had extremely mixed luck with clovers. I can also point out that when you fall to get the clovers the value of whatever else you DO get varies wildly too, but that's another argument. I agree most people no longer bother forging for the pres, but that's more due to the very low value of them atm. 

My point (which your DM comment backs up) is that these games are often stuffed to the gills with all varieties of gambling, it just depends where you draw the line. 

[Abnaxos.4305]

3 hours ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Adults should be allowed to decide for themselves, period. Imposing your will on strangers by prohibiting them from doing something because you, or someone else, dont like that thing is as far from, "decent," as you can get.

I dont like BLK/chests but I am not going to advocate having men and women with guns (government) intervene to prevent others who do from partaking.

I try to avoid eating too many sweets, or carbobydrates in general, but I am not going to advocate for the intervention of armed men to prevent others from eating a slice of bread  because someone out there overeats.

Again, yes we should avoid promoting gambling to children, but the instant you decide that you are going to take self determination away from adults you (in the general sense, not you personally) are the much bigger problem.

Well, I guess you wouldn't run around "Hey, want a beer? … sure you want … common, try it … just one … it's free!  … pretty please? …" That's basically what the game's doing with the loot boxes.

There's a difference between providing something to those who want it and constantly trying to force it on them. There are places where anyone who wants can gamble and that's fine, I wouldn't want to take that away. However, it's not something one should try to press on everyone this aggressively.

(Edit: added quote for context)

Edited June 22, 2022 by Abnaxos.4305

[kharmin.7683]

1 minute ago, Abnaxos.4305 said:

Well, I guess you wouldn't run around "Hey, want a beer? … sure you want … common, try it … just one … it's free!  … pretty please? …" That's basically what the game's doing with the loot boxes.

 

Sure.  I can take that beer and either sell it to someone else who really wants it or just toss it in the trash.  Your metaphor doesn't really work.

[Abnaxos.4305]

8 minutes ago, kharmin.7683 said:

Sure.  I can take that beer and either sell it to someone else who really wants it or just toss it in the trash.  Your metaphor doesn't really work.

Some people can't, they'll drink it. Moreover, these are exactly the people who really shouldn't drink it, because they can't say "no".

[Freya.9075]

11 minutes ago, Abnaxos.4305 said:

Some people can't, they'll drink it. Moreover, these are exactly the people who really shouldn't drink it, because they can't say "no".

By that logic. Should they stop selling beers then? The keys are not more visible then when you’re in the store passing beers and alcohol. The target group are the ppl who enjoys the gamble part of the loot boxes and do it for fun. Like beer is targeted for ppl who enjoy it and don’t get drunk. It’s not targeted for ppl who can’t stay away from it and have issues with gambling. The loot boxes do not scream buy me. The contents in the boxes will not affect your gameplay in any way. You can buy the items you want from tp except the exclusive items which are the shadiest items in them. However it’s pure fashion. Not quality of life or anything affecting your ability to play the game better. 
 

would it be best if they sold the items in gem store and not in a loot box? Yes. Do they exploit ppl who have gamble issues? No. Will it change any time soon? No 

[Astralporing.1957]

8 hours ago, kharmin.7683 said:

Perhaps, but I don't see where GW2 specifically exploits this.  It's not like they're advertising loot boxes with the overt intent to target an addiction.

They don;t have to. Lootboxes themselves are something that is specifically designed to target  (and abuse) an addiction.

[Gibson.4036]

17 minutes ago, Freya.9075 said:

Like beer is targeted for ppl who enjoy it and don’t get drunk.

 

You can tell, because they put the "Please drink responsibly" at the end of the ads.

[Astralporing.1957]

15 minutes ago, Freya.9075 said:

By that logic. Should they stop selling beers then?

I don't know about your country, but in mine shops are forbidden by law from selling alcohol (including beer) to people that are already drunk. That is in addition to prohibition on selling to minors. And that's a good thing.

 

 

[Freya.9075]

1 minute ago, Gibson.4036 said:

 

You can tell, because they put the "Please drink responsibly" at the end of the ads.

Where I live, they don’t advertise alcohol at all. It’s good they do that though. 

[Gibson.4036]

Just now, Astralporing.1957 said:

I don't know about your country, but in mine shops are forbidden by law from selling alcohol (including beer) to people that are already drunk. That is in addition to prohibition on selling to minors. And that's a good thing.

 

 

And the fact that there needs to be laws about those kinds of things should tell us all we need to know about businesses.

[Freya.9075]

1 minute ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

I don't know about your country, but in mine shops are forbidden by law from selling alcohol (including beer) to people that are already drunk. That is in addition to prohibition on selling to minors. And that's a good thing.

 

 

Ofc it’s a good thing. They do that as well here. It’s the same with gambling. We don’t have casinos here for that very reason. The point in my post was the loot boxes are not targeted at ppl who have gambling issues. 

[Astralporing.1957]

1 minute ago, Gibson.4036 said:

And the fact that there needs to be laws about those kinds of things should tell us all we need to know about businesses.

Precisely. In-game gambling however (like gw2 lootboxes) for some reason lacks any kind of regulations whatsoever.

 

Just now, Freya.9075 said:

Ofc it’s a good thing. They do that as well here. It’s the same with gambling. We don’t have casinos here for that very reason. The point in my post was the loot boxes are not targeted at ppl who have gambling issues. 

And beers are not targeted at people that have drinking issues. Or rather, not specifically targeted at them. If not for regulations however, businesses would have absolutely no issues by selling alcohol to drunks by the truckload. The same with gambling. Casinos are regulated for a reason. In-game gambling however is not regulated for some reason, even though, in reality, there's not much difference. Or rather the differences are purely cosmetic and do not change the base approach of busines to either.

[Freya.9075]

2 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Precisely. In-game gambling however (like gw2 lootboxes) for some reason lacks any kind of regulations whatsoever.

 

And beers are not targeted at people that have drinking issues. Or rather, not specifically targeted at them. If not for regulations however, businesses would have absolutely no issues by selling alcohol to drunks by the truckload. The same with gambling. Casinos are regulated for a reason. In-game gambling however is not regulated for some reason, even though, in reality, there's not much difference. Or rather the differences are purely cosmetic and do not change the base approach of busines to either.

They could regulate the black lion keys for sure. But you can’t go bankrupt buying those. The gacha games and other loot boxes for sure. You can spend way too much money and gain nothing. If gw2 was like that I would agree. Black lion chests are not at that level. I would ponder if anyone would buy more then 60 keys if they want the exclusive item that badly when you know you can get it for statuettes later. 

[Astralporing.1957]

12 minutes ago, Freya.9075 said:

They could regulate the black lion keys for sure. But you can’t go bankrupt buying those. The gacha games and other loot boxes for sure. You can spend way too much money and gain nothing. If gw2 was like that I would agree. Black lion chests are not at that level. I would ponder if anyone would buy more then 60 keys if they want the exclusive item that badly when you know you can get it for statuettes later. 

And yet there are people buying keys by the hundreds (and i don't mean just one hundred). OP bought 75 of those on impulse, if you haven't noticed, and he's not even in the same league as some dedicated gemshop frequenters. After all, he did stop after the first batch, instead of continuing after not getting what he wanted.

Edited June 22, 2022 by Astralporing.1957

[Freya.9075]

1 minute ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

And yet there are people buying keys by the hundreds (and i don't mean just one hundred).

I’m sure there are ppl who do that. But it’s still not the same level as the gacha games and other loot boxes where ppl spend thousands and tens of thousand on them. Hopefully they will make more laws about loot boxes though. It is needed. 

[Dodgy Muppet.9082]

Please space and paragraph properly. I'm not reading that.

[Stajan.4581]

OK how about this than...Do not have MF effect loot boxes like the BLC. but how about this.  Put the MF up to 3000% max either by natural or with boosters. 

 

1000% basic items no longer drop

2000% common items no longer drop

3000% uncommon items no longer drop

 

Add into the drop rates Ascended and Legendary items

at 3000% you have a 33% chance to get a Rare, Ascended item or Legendary

make the Legendary items account bound and put in a legendary salvage kit.

 

This will do three things

1 will increase people farming for items to increase their MF which will bring more game play

2 increase the joy of the players to work toward something that will take a very long time to max out.

3 give players who cannot or do not raid the chance to get top end gear and items.

 

With the number of legendary ascended and rare/exotic items in the game, the number of different items you will get, will keep you happy about farming.

That does mean that any rare bags that are opened would have a 50/50 shot at a rare or an exotic item. Again the number of items is to grand that you would have to worry about flooding the TP with pre's

 

 

[Kurrilino.2706]

Don't buy lootboxes !!!!!

 

This stuff is forbidden in other countries on purpose.

If you still do, deal with the outcome but don't complain on a public forum

Edited June 23, 2022 by Kurrilino.2706