Some Suggestions for necromancer to aid death magic usage.

[Lily.1935]

So I'll start by saying I do think the changes we're seeing for reaper are actually good, but I'll also be the first to say that its not enough. Although some think its a nerf, It honestly seems like a buff for them. Not much of one and everyone might have a lower DPS cap over all so we'll have to see once things are done. There are a lot more changes I'd like to see for the necromancer but for right now I'm going to suggest a few changes to give some more options for some more utility. I like the direction of more selfish traits becoming more selfless, and its a real shame necromancer didn't see more of that. So one change I'll suggest will help provide synergy with an under used trait line and give options for new builds.

Deathly Chill: Change this from 8 seconds of 2 stacks of bleeding to 6-8 seconds of 2 stacks of Poison. (Adjust for PvP accordingly)

Corrupter's Fervor: Grant 3 seconds of protection to up to 5 allies when above the carapace threshold every 5 seconds. PvE only(Maybe WvW but its probably too powerful there)

Spectral Ring: Grant Resolution instead of protection and pulse from the center both fear and Resolution instead of having to walk into it.

Dark Defiance: change to Spectral skills have a 20% cooldown reduction and now grant Stability in addition to their other effects. (This would mean Spectral Ring would give allies stability)
 

This is just a short list of changes that could help to give necromancer a bit more support options. The most popular trait line for support is Blood magic but there's no reason we couldn't see that elsewhere.

What sort of builds could we see from this? Well, Heal scourge would need to sacrifice their cooldown on garish pillar to get the protection for allies but it could be worth it. Harbinger gains some new support options as well, not just being a worse firebrand although I feel these options might be more niche. Reaper I feel would get the most from a change like this if deathly chill was converted to poison. Suddenly with these we could see a defensive utility condi reaper which could be really cool to play. Do I think this is enough to push Death magic? Probably in pvp. Could see some niche use in PvE though which is where my focus is. Protection, resolution and stability access is something I feel would help the necromancer out.

I have a ton of other suggestions but these few will be fine to suggest right now. I just want to see death magic used more than just for minions.

[Dadnir.5038]

I'm not sure if you realise how death magic is perceived nowaday. Some professions are even jealous of the traitline.

There are currently harbinger builds that use fully the potential of the non-minion part of the traitline and it make the sPvP community whine quite loudly.

[Lily.1935]

7 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I'm not sure if you realise how death magic is perceived nowaday. Some professions are even jealous of the traitline.

There are currently harbinger builds that use fully the potential of the non-minion part of the traitline and it make the sPvP community whine quite loudly.

Its poorly designed. I'd like a total rework but I'm looking for more support options.

[Dadnir.5038]

13 minutes ago, Lily.1935 said:

Its poorly designed. I'd like a total rework but I'm looking for more support options.

the only thing worth reworking are the 3 minion traits.

 

[Lily.1935]

1 hour ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

the only thing worth reworking are the 3 minion traits.

 

The minion traits are atrocious and they need some serious compression. But the passive toughness which also translates into basically free unremovable resolution is not good. The entire trait line is god awful, regardless of if its good in a game mode or not.

[Rhingeim.3974]

I think the whole Death Magic trait line should be re-designed to make minions viable outside of going into uber-sustain variant via DM and BM.

 

Something like boosting minions stat via percentage of character stats (like it's already done on Mechanist), learning new tricks like providing some passive boon generation (like engineer can achieve with flamethrower and some traits), ability to tune minions to either power, condi damage or utility (like Mechanist can already achieve with it's own bot). This can solve the issue of full-minion based necros being useless in end-game content. 

 

So DM can get more synergies with other trait, and minions will probably start do more damage than character's auto-attack.

 

If someone scared by increasing botting activity with more powerful minions.... This will not increase it (Bots are absolutely fine even with current state, and, basically, they based on absent of diminishing return from killing same mob over and over again)

[Obtena.7952]

15 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I'm not sure if you realise how death magic is perceived nowaday. Some professions are even jealous of the traitline.

There are currently harbinger builds that use fully the potential of the non-minion part of the traitline and it make the sPvP community whine quite loudly.

Also in PVE. I mean, Death Magic is actually REALLY good on Harb, better than Blood could ever be for sustain. 

What I think should happen on Death Magic ... we SHOULDN'T have three traits dedicated to minion playstyle. No other family of skills has three traits dedicated to them in a single build. I don't even thing two. It's a strange design decision that really limits the focus of the whole Traitline. 

Edited June 26, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Dralor.3701]

22 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I'm not sure if you realise how death magic is perceived nowaday. Some professions are even jealous of the traitline.

There are currently harbinger builds that use fully the potential of the non-minion part of the traitline and it make the sPvP community whine quite loudly.

Same for WvW, you can build crazy stacks so fast basically unkillable 1v1.

[Dadnir.5038]

10 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Also in PVE. I mean, Death Magic is actually REALLY good on Harb, better than Blood could ever be for sustain. 

What I think should happen on Death Magic ... we SHOULDN'T have three traits dedicated to minion playstyle. No other family of skills has three traits dedicated to them in a single build. I don't even thing two. It's a strange design decision that really limits the focus of the whole Traitline. 

It's 4... There is 4 traits for minions. 3 in death magic and 1 in blood magic (on a minor slot, no less). Minions are over supported in their most passive use and that's, for me, one of the worst aspect of the minion mechanism of the necromancer.

- Minions passively gain more health and passively provide carapace stacks through flesh of the master.

- Minions passively deal more damages, drain conditions from the necromancer and transfert conditions to their targeted foe through necromantic corruption.

- Minions passively release a poison nova on death due to death nova.

- Minions passively drain life for you through vampiric.

4 traits to promote passive gameplay on an utility category that's already very passive. Only signet builds can be perceived as more passive than a necromancer's minion build and yet, the devs at least try to promote the use of the signet's actives on most professions.

[Lily.1935]

Death magic is the only trait line in the entire game that forces you to take toughness. While others do give you toughness through adept, master and grandmaster traits death is the only one which gives you toughness through the minor traits. This makes it pretty bad in some areas in PvE.

[Nimon.7840]

For PvE death magic has one big problem:

It grants up to 600 toughness.

Wich basically makes you Autotank basically every endgame encounter with toughness aggro. But turns out: not having a block or evade on weapon or utility skills makes Necro pretty much useless as a tank on most of these encounters.

 

So either the toughness needs to be removed, or Necro needs some evade/block.

But hey, anet still didn't touch the arguably worst weapon in the whole game: necros Mainhand dagger.

[Rhingeim.3974]

Hmm.. Maybe DM can have additional boost like carapace, but for minions damage. So player either go for carapace for personal toughness, or for additional minions damage. 

[ZDragon.3046]

On 6/25/2022 at 9:01 PM, Lily.1935 said:

So I'll start by saying I do think the changes we're seeing for reaper are actually good, but I'll also be the first to say that its not enough. Although some think its a nerf, It honestly seems like a buff for them. Not much of one and everyone might have a lower DPS cap over all so we'll have to see once things are done. There are a lot more changes I'd like to see for the necromancer but for right now I'm going to suggest a few changes to give some more options for some more utility. I like the direction of more selfish traits becoming more selfless, and its a real shame necromancer didn't see more of that. So one change I'll suggest will help provide synergy with an under used trait line and give options for new builds.

Deathly Chill: Change this from 8 seconds of 2 stacks of bleeding to 6-8 seconds of 2 stacks of Poison. (Adjust for PvP accordingly)

I dont like the idea of poison being applied here unfortunately torment would make a bit more sense. (you want to keep moving to keep warm but if you sit still it gets worse kinda thing) Torment just fits better.

On 6/25/2022 at 9:01 PM, Lily.1935 said:

Corrupter's Fervor: Grant 3 seconds of protection to up to 5 allies when above the carapace threshold every 5 seconds. PvE only(Maybe WvW but its probably too powerful there)

 

This might be ok ish but forget about this happening in pvp and wvw people already hate necro enough as it is they could make the threshold 55 stack to grant protection for 1 second and people would think its op still. 

 

On 6/25/2022 at 9:01 PM, Lily.1935 said:

Spectral Ring: Grant Resolution instead of protection and pulse from the center both fear and Resolution instead of having to walk into it.

Im not sure if would be fair for this to pulse out a fear I think the initial placement should however apply a 1s fear after that they have to walk across it or something. the pulsing of the boon whichever it gives would be ok though.

 

On 6/25/2022 at 9:01 PM, Lily.1935 said:

Dark Defiance: change to Spectral skills have a 20% cooldown reduction and now grant Stability in addition to their other effects. (This would mean Spectral Ring would give allies stability)

I generally dont like the death line having much to do with spectral skills so I have to kind of say no to this one. Additionally lets not combine the idea of a pulsing fear bubble that also provides stab at the same time this is just not going to work balance wise especially in wvw/pvp that just makes you effectively invincible while standing in it.

 

The base spectral skill spectral armor should already give one stack of stab for its duration period without a trait its the only spectral defensive that saw no rework or update with the removal of spectral traits.

 

Additionally a death magic rework needs to include removing the toughness from carapace stacks or carapace stacks all together. Anet has already said they do not like this mechanic in their game and has intended to remove it for a while now. (how it didnt make it into the 28th PATCH IDONT KNOW, I guess another thing that shows they were out of touch) But Death magic should probably have its carapace idea scrapped and many of the on death traits scrapped as well. 

 

[Lily.1935]

On 6/27/2022 at 7:10 AM, Nimon.7840 said:

For PvE death magic has one big problem:

It grants up to 600 toughness.

Wich basically makes you Autotank basically every endgame encounter with toughness aggro. But turns out: not having a block or evade on weapon or utility skills makes Necro pretty much useless as a tank on most of these encounters.

 

So either the toughness needs to be removed, or Necro needs some evade/block.

But hey, anet still didn't touch the arguably worst weapon in the whole game: necros Mainhand dagger.

I agree. They could make it a flat damage reduction in pve, but there are issues with that as well. I like the concept of carapace. So if we're stacking to 30 a 0.5% damage reduction per stack would put them at 15% damage reduction at max. That's still extremely strong though.

[Lily.1935]

48 minutes ago, ZDragon.3046 said:

I dont like the idea of poison being applied here unfortunately torment would make a bit more sense. (you want to keep moving to keep warm but if you sit still it gets worse kinda thing) Torment just fits better.

This might be ok ish but forget about this happening in pvp and wvw people already hate necro enough as it is they could make the threshold 55 stack to grant protection for 1 second and people would think its op still. 

 

Im not sure if would be fair for this to pulse out a fear I think the initial placement should however apply a 1s fear after that they have to walk across it or something. the pulsing of the boon whichever it gives would be ok though.

 

I generally dont like the death line having much to do with spectral skills so I have to kind of say no to this one. Additionally lets not combine the idea of a pulsing fear bubble that also provides stab at the same time this is just not going to work balance wise especially in wvw/pvp that just makes you effectively invincible while standing in it.

 

The base spectral skill spectral armor should already give one stack of stab for its duration period without a trait its the only spectral defensive that saw no rework or update with the removal of spectral traits.

 

Additionally a death magic rework needs to include removing the toughness from carapace stacks or carapace stacks all together. Anet has already said they do not like this mechanic in their game and has intended to remove it for a while now. (how it didnt make it into the 28th PATCH IDONT KNOW, I guess another thing that shows they were out of touch) But Death magic should probably have its carapace idea scrapped and many of the on death traits scrapped as well. 

 

Poison can make sense just fine. Yes, torment makes sense, but we have both scourge and harbinger which use torment quite a lot and deathly chill would actually make reaper apply torment far quicker than both those two specs could and Reaper's condi DPS is honestly not THAT far off the mark. Poison is already stronger than bleeding, though not that much but it does allow it to function with Death magic better giving the specialization more use in PvE.

The other changes I'm suggesting to death further aid this idea of the necromancer providing defensive utility without sacrificing too much DPS, which a hybrid defensive support tank from reaper is something I think would be quite interesting to play. Stability is woefully under used on other specs and although I Don't think a condi death reaper would be the best tank support available, it could at least become an interesting option.

I have a load of other ideas for improvements for necromancer, like you might as well. For me, I want a higher diversity of builds for necromancer, not just for Scourge and Harbinger but for reaper too.

I do agree that toughness should be removed from Carapace. Damage reduction seems like the cleanest solution to this, although that could be even less balanced than toughness even at .5% per stack. I think the whole thing needs to be rethought.

Minion traits, something I'm also concerned about need some serious compression and some of their function just be made baseline for the minions and minion health and damage be adjusted for each game mode.

Death is a mess, honestly.

[Obtena.7952]

Yeah Death ... here is what I would like to see, with the goals of opening up bandwidth for more choices and expanding Carapace use

1. Remove at least one trait buffing minions, because it's too much focus on minions as a skill set. Preferably Death Nova (this will keep passive minion play relatively intact). This would open up bandwidth. It's simply a free trait to do SOMETHING else that isn't minions.

2. Change Corruptor's fervor so that there is a % damage reduction (or increase the toughness per stack) for each stack of carapace. Also add the condition that crit hits give stacks of carapace. Also add a ICD of 1 second. This will make carapace actually USEFUL to any build, not just condi ones.

3. Most radical idea ... swap Unholy Sanctuary and Death Perception. A bit more convoluted suggestion but  I think it puts Death and SR on more even ground for a mix of sustain/DPS choices in each. 

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

Death Magic is by design selfish. Blood Magic is for party animals.
 

[Lily.1935]

On 6/28/2022 at 11:40 AM, Obtena.7952 said:

Yeah Death ... here is what I would like to see, with the goals of opening up bandwidth for more choices and expanding Carapace use

1. Remove at least one trait buffing minions, because it's too much focus on minions as a skill set. Preferably Death Nova (this will keep passive minion play relatively intact). This would open up bandwidth. It's simply a free trait to do SOMETHING else that isn't minions.

2. Change Corruptor's fervor so that there is a % damage reduction (or increase the toughness per stack) for each stack of carapace. Also add the condition that crit hits give stacks of carapace. Also add a ICD of 1 second. This will make carapace actually USEFUL to any build, not just condi ones.

3. Most radical idea ... swap Unholy Sanctuary and Death Perception. A bit more convoluted suggestion but  I think it puts Death and SR on more even ground for a mix of sustain/DPS choices in each. 

1. The thing is I'd remove 2 traits of the minion traits, and its not Death nova I would remove. The Adept and master traits are unbalanced. They are extreme examples of traits which if given an inch will turn minions into a dominant force in low end PvP and even unbalance PvE if given enough minions to abuse it.
Some might not remember this but there was a short time when Minion Master Reaper was one of the Best DPS builds in the game. And it boasted high sustain, virtual immunity to conditions, stacked over 100 bleeds and flooded raids with minions. The build was quickly nerfed into oblivion but a part of the issue of this build was caused by Necromantic Corruption with its condi tranfer but also caused by Flesh of the Master because the extra health made it so you could maintain the necessary minions to get those insane bleed stacks. Death Nova became a problem too, But only because so many minions could be maintained. Even if you theoretically could summon 3 unstable horrors every 6 seconds with death nova you be at 37k DPS at max, which will never be the case.
Those two traits are the cause of so many issues when it comes to minions and I'm not saying Death Nova wasn't part of the problem before, it was. But of the 3 its the only interesting one that can't have part of it just be made baseline in the minion health and damage. Death nova also does promote a different style of playing a Minion master where sacrificing them is good rather than maintaining minions indefinitely.
So I'm on the exact opposite side of this one. No, Death nova can stay with buffs, everything else can be removed.

2. It wouldn't make it useful to any build. restricting it to critical hit actually restricts it even more than you would think. As it is now it actually has some good design ideas to it, but giving allies protection would be better as protection is a boon that is lacking baring a few specific classes and considering death is a defensive line giving it some defensive support would go further. As it stands now it actually Does work rather well with power as well as condi. Power scourge, Harbinger apply quite a few conditions as it is now. So condition synergy is just more lenient than crit synergy.

3. Your third idea would literally be the death of Power builds on necromancer as a whole. Because no matter what Reaper and Power Harbinger would lose out on either skill recharge+10% damage buff, better life for gen or they'd lose out on a +10% Damage buff, +20% damage buff conditionally. This would be a terrible change.

 

[Obtena.7952]

Bottomline is that there is too much emphasis on minions, conditions for carapace and minimal dps options in death. IMO,  those are the things that need to be fixed. 

Edited June 29, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Lily.1935]

2 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Bottomline is that there is too much emphasis on minions, conditions for carapace and minimal dps options in death. IMO,  those are the things that need to be fixed. 

Every Necromancer spec has at least some condition focus. Death used to be one of the only ways to get the Disease condition in Guild Wars 1 and caused a lot of poison as well as weakness and bleeding. Conditions is in necromancers core design as well. Necromancer IS the condition profession. Death is also a Defensive line, like earth for elementalist. It doesn't need to be another Spite or curses. Providing personal defense is good for it, but also providing ally defense would be good design space for it.

Minions, I do want those two traits removed with their stats made baseline and replaced with something with more synergy with other things, it could still provide synergy with minions but more a general summoning synergy so some unique traits that influence anything the necromancer summons like Minions, Golems from runes, Shades or perhaps spirits, turrets or spirit weapons from a future spec.

[Obtena.7952]

2 hours ago, Lily.1935 said:

Every Necromancer spec has at least some condition focus. Death used to be one of the only ways to get the Disease condition in Guild Wars 1 and caused a lot of poison as well as weakness and bleeding. Conditions is in necromancers core design as well. Necromancer IS the condition profession. Death is also a Defensive line, like earth for elementalist. It doesn't need to be another Spite or curses. Providing personal defense is good for it, but also providing ally defense would be good design space for it.

Minions, I do want those two traits removed with their stats made baseline and replaced with something with more synergy with other things, it could still provide synergy with minions but more a general summoning synergy so some unique traits that influence anything the necromancer summons like Minions, Golems from runes, Shades or perhaps spirits, turrets or spirit weapons from a future spec.

Sure ... but that doesn't change the fact that carapace as a feature is requires high condition volume. It's  not a coincidence that condition Harb leans so heavily on it and not anyone else

I mean, what is the goal here? If you want to change death magic to be more useful, the things I said are relevant to do that

Edited June 30, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Lily.1935]

2 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Sure ... but that doesn't change the fact that carapace as a feature is requires high condition volume. It's  not a coincidence that condition Harb leans so heavily on it and not anyone else

I mean, what is the goal here? If you want to change death magic to be more useful, the things I said are relevant to do that

Its not toughness the necromancer needs. Its utility. Which your suggestions don't address that. You could make death useful by making it a better DPS option than spite or Soul reaping and that would make death useful, but that only obsoletes another specialization rather than building on something the other specializations don't do.

Giving allies some needed utility like Condition conversion, important boons like protection, stability, aegis, group stunbreaks or condition transfer are some of the ways Necromancer could provide in utility. Do I think it needs all of these options in death? Absolutely not that would be bloated. One or two? Yeah.

Protection is a great boon to give to allies Which necromancer can already give and used to give more in a limited capacity. It makes stuff like Barrier 33% more effective and makes healing easier. The boon is very strong.

Stability keeps allies on their feet against crowd control enemies, the arena or the boss might throw out. Its also extremely important and its impact on the group is good.

If necromancer had the ability to give allies an AoE buff that let them transfer conditions with their next attack or next few attacks that is a very necro means of support and would aid in utility.

And you're not wrong that Carapace is easier to build for a condition build. That's 100% true. But Carapace is kinda a bad mechanic at the moment as it currently stands. So we'll have to see how anet addresses it in the future.