Arms reimagined! [A complete rework of the Arms Traitline]

[DKRathalos.9625]

Wounding precision is good however the poison apply is still questionable, for this one it's not on our part though it's on Dev's part on deciding on how they will approach the condi warrior. The passive part is nice definitely the apply poison can be changed to maybe bleeding deal more damage, or can apply torment instead of poison.

 

Blademaster... for this one is tough I can't say it's good or bad, the passive part is nice I think not changed from the original it's just the part where sword 4-5 will basically never be used, and we have no control over this.

Technically speaking the one who can access condi build now only Zerker, Spellbreaker and Bladesworn are Power. Zerker will definitely choose torch for offhand instead of sword, since there is trait to boost condi on zerker while holding torch.

 

Let's pretend we are in the world where dev listen right, on [Wounding Precision] they can basically take your idea then tweak it a bit to fit their intention, on [Blademaster] however it will require them to do more job aka redesign some sword skill/mechanic first then we can give more feedback.

 

Maybe some unpopular opinion, just delete offhand sword atm and give it later to new e-spec XD

Edited June 29, 2022 by DKRathalos.9625

[Grand Marshal.4098]

3 hours ago, DKRathalos.9625 said:

Wounding precision is good however the poison apply is still questionable, for this one it's not on our part though it's on Dev's part on deciding on how they will approach the condi warrior. The passive part is nice definitely the apply poison can be changed to maybe bleeding deal more damage, or can apply torment instead of poison.

I wanted to introduce a new condition to the warrior without really going too hard into trait ideas (like my original idea of having cripple traited do dmg for warrior). Poison via "rusted blades" was the idea of what I had in mind, then again Longbow burst isn't exactly a blade or blunt weapon, so I jsut said spray chemicals on your weapons lol. Def removable.

3 hours ago, DKRathalos.9625 said:

 

Blademaster... for this one is tough I can't say it's good or bad, the passive part is nice I think not changed from the original it's just the part where sword 4-5 will basically never be used, and we have no control over this.

They would be used if they were good. With the trait idea they both get a whole lot more condi in conjuction with block utility and might from rip (you would have to rip in the last second so impale can get it's full effect). But oh well.

3 hours ago, DKRathalos.9625 said:

Technically speaking the one who can access condi build now only Zerker, Spellbreaker and Bladesworn are Power. Zerker will definitely choose torch for offhand instead of sword, since there is trait to boost condi on zerker while holding torch.

I don't think it's the case in endgame PvE, but for other content Spellbreaker and Core have quite ok condition builds tbh. Sword is def usable there. I'd balance it around effectiveness, not so much high performance. 

3 hours ago, DKRathalos.9625 said:

 

Let's pretend we are in the world where dev listen right, on [Wounding Precision] they can basically take your idea then tweak it a bit to fit their intention, on [Blademaster] however it will require them to do more job aka redesign some sword skill/mechanic first then we can give more feedback.

Yeah that's a whole other discussion, so I aimed at improved skills via trait like with necro scepter for example, but since you can yield 2 swords, 2 skills get changed (rip or riposte should be made baseline, rip imo, since impale is already condi and rip is too power focused). 

3 hours ago, DKRathalos.9625 said:

 

Maybe some unpopular opinion, just delete offhand sword atm and give it later to new e-spec XD

Meh, at this point we work with what we got in theorycrafting. Now actually playing the game for too long with such things that are part of our imagination is another concept lol.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

Updated: Wounding Precision now also applies Cripple on burst skills. More in line with the idea of the trait to 'wound' enemies and give it something more than just a Stat conversion. Previous poison idea has been scrapped. 

[Katary.7096]

22 hours ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Its the added crit chance modifier they wished to put in Arms. Otherwise it can be removed and placed in Dicispline. I think that the fury duration can be shaved off, but not below 6 seconds. This line is about fury anyway, so it makes sense. Lesser durations, even with lesser ICDs mess up warrior rotations in solo play where boons mean a lot more.

So it does increase the effect of fury, thanks for clearing that up. And as long as Arms is turned into a specialization that both condition and power builds would like to pick I don't see a problem with that effect being there. On the subject of Discipline: Long term that specialization should probably become a hybrid for team support (so that there is a complement to Tactics) and general warrior utility effects (for example Warrior's Sprint or Brawler's Recovery). If shortening the icd is not intended then the duration should indeed be 6 seconds at minimum.

22 hours ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Signet mastery is half-half. You can take it for the Signet builds, but eith no signets (say stances, FGJ etc.), you'd probably opt for the dmg modifier in the below row. Again, anything you may got as an idea that can compete is welcome for addition. Just lmk your idea.

Well, in the context of PvE, if loading up your build with the maximum number of signets gets the best damage output, then that is what people are going to do. But the primary problem with your Opportunist is that it is simply not that good. Compare it to Peak Performance in Strength (is a major adept slot as well) or Engineer's Shaped Charge (+0,5% dmg per stack of vuln->maximum of 12,5% dmg bonus). Both of those are a better damage boost than the suggested Opportunist.

22 hours ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

It's in line with the actual Signet and the idea is to mostly gain an adrenaline bump early in fights and have that extra ferocity boost once in a while. Precision overcapping is mostly an issue in endgame PvE and all classes can go beyond it momentarily or permanently, so I don't think it's a big of a deal. You can know that if you don't build 100% Crit chance you can have that small window every 20 sec that may be enough to crit cap!

Yes, it is a direct result of what that signet does with it's active effect and to be fair it is much less of a problem then the new Zephyr's Speed on Elementalist.

22 hours ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Which is why with this rework, we should aim for other reworks too, such kitten confusion on maces, torment in sword (more), better application of conditions in general. Bleeds are more or less easy to get so might as well get more value out of something like aigil of torment and doom in condi builds.

So your rework of the Arms specialization assumes that we will see sweeping changes made to many elements of core Warrior? That's confident.

23 hours ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Tbh, the number can be adjusted. It's a placeholder. Would not focus on making it too strong in competetive environment (7% should be fine) while in PvE Open World it should be an ok option to heal oneself. Now for endgame PvE, I don't know.

For reference: The competetive version of Invigorating Precision has 10% base and 20% when boosted by Fury, though I don't believe Thiefs are running that trait.

23 hours ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Thanks for the valuable feedback, we rly need a refined Arms rework and it's been a long while since we discussed it. So I'll try to elaborate on all opinions and justify choices, in hopes of not being stuck in an endless trait rework cycle xD

You're welcome, thanks for your effort.

 

22 hours ago, DKRathalos.9625 said:

Believe it or not this is indeed the goal of Grand Marshal's design, I also mention this several times to other ppl that Arms should function like Radiance and Firearms. However the question remains if anet will ever see this post and take it as feedback lul because they are famous of the ignorance.

I don't doubt Grand Marshal's good intentions. So far the reworked Arms specialization is not on the level of quality of Firearms/ Radiance, but to be fair: Those are "golden child" specializations, so of course they are playing in a different league.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

37 minutes ago, Katary.7096 said:

So it does increase the effect of fury, thanks for clearing that up. And as long as Arms is turned into a specialization that both condition and power builds would like to pick I don't see a problem with that effect being there. On the subject of Discipline: Long term that specialization should probably become a hybrid for team support (so that there is a complement to Tactics) and general warrior utility effects (for example Warrior's Sprint or Brawler's Recovery).

I agree with Discipline needing more support options and QoL, Arms can definitely shine if it focuses exactly on that. Arms! Like dual swords and dual axes. Can't get more Arms than that! 

37 minutes ago, Katary.7096 said:

 

If shortening the icd is not intended then the duration should indeed be 6 seconds at minimum.

Yeah ICD is there to act as a check. So I can play with the duration a bit. 

37 minutes ago, Katary.7096 said:

Well, in the context of PvE, if loading up your build with the maximum number of signets gets the best damage output, then that is what people are going to do. But the primary problem with your Opportunist is that it is simply not that good. Compare it to Peak Performance in Strength (is a major adept slot as well) or Engineer's Shaped Charge (+0,5% dmg per stack of vuln->maximum of 12,5% dmg bonus). Both of those are a better damage boost than the suggested Opportunist.

I was afraid of adding a modifier too strong and also looked towards Elementalist's water traitline for the vulnerability ideas. I would not like to make it too confusing and go for a more Devastation oriented route of Vulnerability doing life leech for example (traitline would be too overloaded between condi, life leech and power dmg), so maybe I just need to put it at a 10% and be in a comfortable spot for it to contend. 

37 minutes ago, Katary.7096 said:

Yes, it is a direct result of what that signet does with it's active effect and to be fair it is much less of a problem then the new Zephyr's Speed on Elementalist.

Yeah, precicely. I would like to only boost ferocity, but that already is part of the Ferocity Signet and the additional Precision can be of use (on top of being, as said, the exact mechanic of the actual signet). 

37 minutes ago, Katary.7096 said:

So your rework of the Arms specialization assumes that we will see sweeping changes made to many elements of core Warrior? That's confident.

Isn't that the dream? Ahahah, not that I gamble on it, but swords are long overdue for some changes. Aaand I doubt this rework (even if everyone agrees on it) will ever be noticed. 

37 minutes ago, Katary.7096 said:

For reference: The competetive version of Invigorating Precision has 10% base and 20% when boosted by Fury, though I don't believe Thiefs are running that trait.

You're welcome, thanks for your effort.

Thank you too! Also, I need to keep in mind that MMR and MM and Vigorous Shouts and even Adrenal Health exist. Would not want to make a self-sustain monster. We have seen it with Shoutsworn and it's terrible... 

37 minutes ago, Katary.7096 said:

 

I don't doubt Grand Marshal's good intentions. So far the reworked Arms specialization is not on the level of quality of Firearms/ Radiance, but to be fair: Those are "golden child" specializations, so of course they are playing in a different league.

To be honest, I have not looked too deeply into these lines in theorycrafting reference outside of the game to have fully memorized them. But at the same time, I want Arms to be their own thing. 

 

[Grand Marshal.4098]

Update: Increased Strike Damage inflicted on Vulnerable foes by 5% on the trait [Opportunist] to be more in line with similar damage options throughout the warrior's traitlines and be a strong option to consider for non-Signet builds. 

[Grand Marshal.4098]

I just saw the confused emote on the main post OMG!!! 

ELABORATE I NEED INFO! 

[Shinichi Megure.8061]

The orginal signet trait and burst precision are good as they re now with a power build. They give you 100%crit on burst and unblockable, that is all you need against guardians, revenants, mes, ele and any other build that depends on blocks .

I don't have eod and no other traitline gives  you unblockable or 100%crit, that's why  i realy like these two traits, they re perfect for a burst playstyle and go good with gs/axe shield like the old greataxe. There are many other useless traits but these 2 are realy good and fun to play.

I play on eu p2 with strength/arms/zerk and the dps pressure is great in teamfight and sidenode. The downside is ofc sustain, fights against necro, condi ranger are hard and you have to leave some fights and move to another node.

p.s. the confused emote is not from me

 

Edited June 30, 2022 by Shinichi Megure.8061

[Myror.7521]

@Grand Marshal.4098 im up for most of These changes. However i dont like the idea of the Axe traitline been in arms. Since i like the allready Version of pve gs axe/axe warrior and those change would kill the gs Aspekt oft it complete. (Now pvp perspective) Also if that line Drops in arms it would actually kill core axe shield gs warrior in litterly every aspect since it Was the only good way to gain adrenalin without a too hard lost of cc or damage.

 

EDIT: what about to remove the life health Pool needing to stack the effect of the lesser Signet traitline? And made the cd how often it might proc a bit lower. In that way it would open the window for a good way of dmg boost while not waiting that the enemy is under x% life 

Edited July 1, 2022 by Pati.2438

[Katary.7096]

15 hours ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

I agree with Discipline needing more support options and QoL, Arms can definitely shine if it focuses exactly on that. Arms! Like dual swords and dual axes. Can't get more Arms than that!

Well, there goes most of the hope that a major overhaul of Arms is coming anytime soon.
"After today, our next opportunity to make changes will be the July 19 release. The build for this release is already “locked down” and moving through the pipeline, so we don’t have much time to make changes here. Our priority here will be to address Furious Burst, the warrior’s +5% critical hit chance trait that’s currently residing in the Arms specialization. [...]"
Recently posted by Grouch. (https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/117373-profession-balance-next-steps-and-preview-of-june-30-balance-update /)

Sounds as if they will be moving that trait effect somewhere else, which is a good isolated change to solve the problem of power builds not being able to pick this effect up. But it likely also means that Arms will remain a specialization almost exclusively used by condition builds.

16 hours ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

I was afraid of adding a modifier too strong and also looked towards Elementalist's water traitline for the vulnerability ideas. I would not like to make it too confusing and go for a more Devastation oriented route of Vulnerability doing life leech for example (traitline would be too overloaded between condi, life leech and power dmg), so maybe I just need to put it at a 10% and be in a comfortable spot for it to contend.

That makes sense, a specialization should not be overloaded with too many different effects.

16 hours ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Yeah, precicely. I would like to only boost ferocity, but that already is part of the Ferocity Signet and the additional Precision can be of use (on top of being, as said, the exact mechanic of the actual signet).

True.

16 hours ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Isn't that the dream? Ahahah, not that I gamble on it, but swords are long overdue for some changes. Aaand I doubt this rework (even if everyone agrees on it) will ever be noticed.

Also true.

16 hours ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Thank you too! Also, I need to keep in mind that MMR and MM and Vigorous Shouts and even Adrenal Health exist. Would not want to make a self-sustain monster. We have seen it with Shoutsworn and it's terrible...

Yes, stacking multiple sustain sources in one build is probably something that should be avoided. Though that raises the question: Is it necessary for Arms to have its own sustain trait?

16 hours ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

To be honest, I have not looked too deeply into these lines in theorycrafting reference outside of the game to have fully memorized them. But at the same time, I want Arms to be their own thing.

I'd settle for a version of Arms that is "heavily inspired" by one of the better "critical hits & conditions" hybrid specializations. But certain changes would always be required, for example Radiance has synergy with resolution, which Warrior has limited access to. So there is room to put a unique Warrior spin on it.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

8 hours ago, Shinichi Megure.8061 said:

The orginal signet trait and burst precision are good as they re now with a power build. They give you 100%crit on burst and unblockable, that is all you need against guardians, revenants, mes, ele and any other build that depends on blocks .

I don't have eod and no other traitline gives  you unblockable or 100%crit, that's why  i realy like these two traits, they re perfect for a burst playstyle and go good with gs/axe shield like the old greataxe. There are many other useless traits but these 2 are realy good and fun to play.

I play on eu p2 with strength/arms/zerk and the dps pressure is great in teamfight and sidenode. The downside is ofc sustain, fights against necro, condi ranger are hard and you have to leave some fights and move to another node.

p.s. the confused emote is not from me

 

Very good observations. Same reason I am running Arms tbh. That is why I focused hard on Burst Supremacy giving Unblockable reliably, with additional Vuln per unblockable. That's why I lowered the Crit Chance for Bursts. I shall include an additional Crit Chance Increase though in the Middle Major Master trait to make it a more appealing synergy. Also, looking at maximizing unblockable stacks gained through Burst Supremacy. 

Better have Unblockables on demands than wait for the 50% health proc and slotting signet of Might at the same time! 

6 hours ago, Pati.2438 said:

@Grand Marshal.4098 im up for most of These changes. However i dont like the idea of the Axe traitline been in arms. Since i like the allready Version of pve gs axe/axe warrior and those change would kill the gs Aspekt oft it complete. (Now pvp perspective) Also if that line Drops in arms it would actually kill core axe shield gs warrior in litterly every aspect since it Was the only good way to gain adrenalin without a too hard lost of cc or damage.

With the necessary changes in Discipline and adrenaline on Crit baseline for arms, you would not lose too much. Arms should be all about weapons. Double swords, double axes. Power and condi/hybrid options! 

All you need is for Discipline to be reworked a bit. Will look into the options more soon! 

6 hours ago, Pati.2438 said:

 

EDIT: what about to remove the life health Pool needing to stack the effect of the lesser Signet traitline? And made the cd how often it might proc a bit lower. In that way it would open the window for a good way of dmg boost while not waiting that the enemy is under x% life 

That's why I updated the line to provide the Lesser Sogbet of Fury on crit every 20 seconds. Health percentages are unreliable in all gamemodes since 20% for a player is much different than for a Boss, so we want the trait to be usable in all content!

1 hour ago, Katary.7096 said:

Well, there goes most of the hope that a major overhaul of Arms is coming anytime soon.
"After today, our next opportunity to make changes will be the July 19 release. The build for this release is already “locked down” and moving through the pipeline, so we don’t have much time to make changes here. Our priority here will be to address Furious Burst, the warrior’s +5% critical hit chance trait that’s currently residing in the Arms specialization. [...]"
Recently posted by Grouch. (https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/117373-profession-balance-next-steps-and-preview-of-june-30-balance-update /). 

That's an L. Oh well, won't stop! 

1 hour ago, Katary.7096 said:

Sounds as if they will be moving that trait effect somewhere else, which is a good isolated change to solve the problem of power builds not being able to pick this effect up. But it likely also means that Arms will remain a specialization almost exclusively used by condition builds.

I'd guess it will be Discipline, preferably in a minor slot like Versatile Power. 

1 hour ago, Katary.7096 said:

That makes sense, a specialization should not be overloaded with too many different effects.

True.

Also true.

🖨️🖨️🖨️

1 hour ago, Katary.7096 said:

Yes, stacking multiple sustain sources in one build is probably something that should be avoided. Though that raises the question: Is it necessary for Arms to have its own sustain trait?

Imo yes, only way to make it more appealing for competetive players, while also introducing a means of sustain for the condi builds. 

1 hour ago, Katary.7096 said:

I'd settle for a version of Arms that is "heavily inspired" by one of the better "critical hits & conditions" hybrid specializations. But certain changes would always be required, for example Radiance has synergy with resolution, which Warrior has limited access to. So there is room to put a unique Warrior spin on it.

I'll do some extra research and see what I can find and add without messing up with the agreed traits too much. 

[Grand Marshal.4098]

Update: Added a 50% crit chance increase in flanking strikes (or behind) for Unsuspecting Foe, more in line with the current trait. Plus Burst Supremacy and Wounding Precision, Crit Chabce modifiers can be very helpful with your gear, without overcritting. Might brind Crit Chance increase on flanking strikes down to 25%.

Clarified some things in Burst supremacy and decreased intervals of Unblockable attacks granted per adrenaline bar spent for more reliable strikes. Equalizing it in performance to match more the Lesser Signet of Might unblockable rate within 20 seconds (won't decrease more as signet of might unblockables last for a very restricting time and must be spent in bulk). 

Decreased vulnerability duration applied by Unblockable attacks to match new intervals. 

[Katary.7096]

21 hours ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

I'd guess it will be Discipline, preferably in a minor slot like Versatile Power.

Seems likely. On one hand the best place to put it would obviously be Strength, on the other that specialization is already stacked with good power damage traits, so adding it there is going to mess with the intra-Warrior balance. Though it is a bit ironic that the current top damage Warrior build is a bladesworn with Strength and Tactics, so if they add the +5% crit chance in Discipline that build still couldn't get it.

And even Anet wouldn't put in Defense....right?

21 hours ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Imo yes, only way to make it more appealing for competetive players, while also introducing a means of sustain for the condi builds.

Valid point. Keep in mind that the more specializations have sustain effects, the more difficult it is to prevent people from running nigh unkillable sustain builds. Also, as of right now the healing scales off critical damage, which is typically low on condition builds.

22 hours ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

I'll do some extra research and see what I can find and add without messing up with the agreed traits too much. 

As far as I am concerned you don't have to go through all that effort.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

41 minutes ago, Katary.7096 said:

Seems likely. On one hand the best place to put it would obviously be Strength, on the other that specialization is already stacked with good power damage traits, so adding it there is going to mess with the intra-Warrior balance. Though it is a bit ironic that the current top damage Warrior build is a bladesworn with Strength and Tactics, so if they add the +5% crit chance in Discipline that build still couldn't get it.

Indeed. 

41 minutes ago, Katary.7096 said:

And even Anet wouldn't put in Defense....right?

It's nigh impossible I'd guess.

41 minutes ago, Katary.7096 said:

Valid point. Keep in mind that the more specializations have sustain effects, the more difficult it is to prevent people from running nigh unkillable sustain builds. Also, as of right now the healing scales off critical damage, which is typically low on condition builds.

Was wondering since Celestial does work with a condi warrior build and brings ok Precision already, and I imagine Rampager and Viper, or Sinister are all stats with plenty Precision too, that warrior condition builds in all content may benefit more from a crit heal. 

The heal off of bleeds was suggested, but as remakred earlier in the thread, that would scale to condi dmg and the aim here is to make a hybrid line, where the minor traits help both types of dmg. So unless a warr runs Trailblazer or Dire, I think it's a more useful heal mechanic, which rewards you for attacking the enemy (like adrenal health), instead of spamming might skills for MMR/MM combos or even worse spam shouts like BsW that have no impact, no active benefit etc. 

41 minutes ago, Katary.7096 said:

As far as I am concerned you don't have to go through all that effort.

Meh, it's a hobby at this point. Will try to perfect it as much as I can and see if the 'FeEdBacK' will ever, even, be considered. Just like the other detailed posts we have had in the previous week.

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

Functionally, the crit chance buff should go in Discipline (unless they overhaul arms really soon to make it good for both power and condi builds). That way, virtually every warrior build will benefit from it, at least in competitive modes where disc is pretty much mandatory. 

 

Also, most of Warrior's trait lines need some form of sustain to be viable. This is especially true because, again, you're often locked into discipline which does not have any sustain. So it is good to give something to Arms in that regard. 

[Grand Marshal.4098]

2 hours ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Functionally, the crit chance buff should go in Discipline (unless they overhaul arms really soon to make it good for both power and condi builds). That way, virtually every warrior build will benefit from it, at least in competitive modes where disc is pretty much mandatory. 

 

Also, most of Warrior's trait lines need some form of sustain to be viable. This is especially true because, again, you're often locked into discipline which does not have any sustain. So it is good to give something to Arms in that regard. 

Very much so! 

I do firmly believe that Discipline should get a couple new Grandmaster traits should this rework takes place in an imaginary universe. 

I am still confused as to why Heightened Focus is still there. 

In any case, I have reached a writer's block. I am unsure of how to improve the line and what other numbers to adjust. The weakness synergy I want to keep, tho implementation can probably change and as for the Sword skill rework, I am advocating for at least 1 of each skill from each sword to be altered and Rip to baseline gain some condition identity. 

 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Finally have the chance to comment on this.

Unlike some of the others, I like the focus on Expertise rather than on Condition Damage itself. Warrior has a fair bit of soft condis that are really useful for power builds and I always want to try to boost them, but on a power build rather than a condition build.

Things like rifle would really shine on a power build if there were more expertise/condition duration increases not linked as well to condition damage.

That said, I'd like to see more cover condis that are damage ones that are not weapon specific embedded within Arms. Things like apply torment if you bleed a foe (one for one, no CD, 4s base duration). But that is me just wanting to make Core condi viable against Berserker.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

32 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Finally have the chance to comment on this.

Unlike some of the others, I like the focus on Expertise rather than on Condition Damage itself. Warrior has a fair bit of soft condis that are really useful for power builds and I always want to try to boost them, but on a power build rather than a condition build.

Things like rifle would really shine on a power build if there were more expertise/condition duration increases not linked as well to condition damage.

That said, I'd like to see more cover condis that are damage ones that are not weapon specific embedded within Arms. Things like apply torment if you bleed a foe (one for one, no CD, 4s base duration). But that is me just wanting to make Core condi viable against Berserker.

That's why I slapped cripple on Bursts with Wounding precision (synergy wooo), reworked some sword skills via trait to do torment and uuhh some weakness. That's about it. Tried to let everyone's thoughts see the light of this rework and try to fix the spots I was not doing well on.

Thought about Poison and Blind but eeehhh not very warrior-y (blind on burst for example kinda OP) and confusion would be great with the mace and defense rework we have talked about in the past. 

But overall, the aim is to synergize with Condi AND Power. So I didn't want to go raw condi only. Would love to hear your thoughts on the updated list with comments on each trait when you are back. The idea hit me as part of what we tried to do in the Omnibus a long time ago. 

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 and @Grand Marshal.4098

I agree that warrior needs more cover condis and hybrid play styles. A big part of that succeeding, of course, is having condi/hybrid weapons that apply those effects. I, for one, would very much like to see Mace reworked to become a hybrid weapon and provide more condi application to support skull grinder (or a core condi build, of course). @oscuro.9720 has a recent thread about this with some very good ideas, and I had done a thread on "revitalizing warrior: reworking the mace" a number of months back.

 

Additionally, I think the sundering mace trait in Defense should provide weakness and bleeding on CC and rework Body blow to something else (damage on CC perhaps).  Cull the Weak providing weakness on burst hit would also go along way towards improving Warrior's weakness output and would synergize nicely with the sundering mace rework. 

[Grand Marshal.4098]

2 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 and @Grand Marshal.4098

I agree that warrior needs more cover condis and hybrid play styles. A big part of that succeeding, of course, is having condi/hybrid weapons that apply those effects. I, for one, would very much like to see Mace reworked to become a hybrid weapon and provide more condi application to support skull grinder (or a core condi build, of course). @oscuro.9720 has a recent thread about this with some very good ideas, and I had done a thread on "revitalizing warrior: reworking the mace" a number of months back.

 

Additionally, I think the sundering mace trait in Defense should provide weakness and bleeding on CC and rework Body blow to something else (damage on CC perhaps).  Cull the Weak providing weakness on burst hit would also go along way towards improving Warrior's weakness output and would synergize nicely with the sundering mace rework. 

I think Arms and baseline reworked maces should have enough bleed. In the trait i'd love to see confusion on CC. 

Lemme use that perplexity sigil!!!!!!!!! Or was it a rune hmmmm

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

8 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 and @Grand Marshal.4098

I agree that warrior needs more cover condis and hybrid play styles. A big part of that succeeding, of course, is having condi/hybrid weapons that apply those effects. I, for one, would very much like to see Mace reworked to become a hybrid weapon and provide more condi application to support skull grinder (or a core condi build, of course). @oscuro.9720 has a recent thread about this with some very good ideas, and I had done a thread on "revitalizing warrior: reworking the mace" a number of months back.

 

Additionally, I think the sundering mace trait in Defense should provide weakness and bleeding on CC and rework Body blow to something else (damage on CC perhaps).  Cull the Weak providing weakness on burst hit would also go along way towards improving Warrior's weakness output and would synergize nicely with the sundering mace rework. 

I'm still catching up man, I'm getting to it all.

[JTGuevara.9018]

One of the problems with Arms, to me, is that warrior has a difficult time keeping critical-chance up in the first place never mind capping it to make use of this spec line. Part of the reason is that warrior does not have access to much fury to begin with. Also, some of the traits either don't belong or depend too much on the RNG of critical chance without giving much, if anything, back in return. Finally, power builds seem to suffer and be excluded despite this being a hybrid spec. To me, an Arms line rework would look like this(changes are in bold):

Furious Burst: (keep as is)

Wounding Precision: (keep as is)

Signet Mastery: (keep as is)

Opportunist: Gain fury and adrenaline when you inflict an enemy with a movement-impeding condition. Movement-impeding conditions inflict bleeding with each condition granting an extra 5% critical chance.

Deep Strikes: Gain extra precision for every stack of fury.

Unsuspecting Foe: (remove this trait and replace with..)

             <NEW TRAIT>: Gain fury and inflict bleeding when you inflict an enemy with a movement-impeding condition.

Sundering Burst: Each use of a burst skill grants fury(2s). Burst skills grant additional fury(3s) and inflict vulnerability if they hit and inflict burning if the attack is a critical hit.

Blademaster: Gain condition damage and expertise for each sword equipped. Sword skills gain reduced recharge.

Bloodlust: (keep as is)

Burst Precision: (replace this trait with Discipline's Crack Shot)

Furious: Critical hits grant bonus adrenaline and gain a stacking ferocity effect. Every 5 stacks of ferocity grants fury.

Dual Wielding: Gain ferocity or condition damage based on the offhand weapon that is equipped when wielding a main-hand weapon in your off-hand.

                                      (Sword: condition damage, Mace: ferocity, Axe: ferocity)

 

And now, for explanations...! I made sure each of the major traits have at least both 1 power and 1 condition trait so the spec line can be reliably filled. Opportunist for more fury gain and you don't limit this to just immobilize. (Makes no sense to me, really...) Cripple, slow, chill are also included. Other weapon reworks to grant these conditions will enhance this trait. Deep Strikes to keep up critical-chance. It's that simple. (It's in the trait description!) Unsuspecting Foe. Yup. Remove. This is the most out-of-place trait that there is here. Replaced with a new trait that has something to offer for power, condi and hybrid builds. Sundering Burst for more fury access. You also don't get punished if you miss a burst. Blademaster. Good idea, but this change would benefit both single and dual sword wielders. And let's face it...offhand sword is no good...Burst Precision to open up for more longbow and rifle use with this line. Also, it just doesn't belong in Discipline since this trait improves the use of specific ARMS. And let's face it, nothing is competing with Warrior's Sprint. Furious for even more fury access for power builds. (Notice that each of the major traits has fury access of some kind...) Dual Wielding for both power and condi builds.

 

Edited July 3, 2022 by JTGuevara.9018
formatting

[Katary.7096]

On 7/2/2022 at 9:13 AM, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Was wondering since Celestial does work with a condi warrior build and brings ok Precision already, and I imagine Rampager and Viper, or Sinister are all stats with plenty Precision too, that warrior condition builds in all content may benefit more from a crit heal. 

The heal off of bleeds was suggested, but as remakred earlier in the thread, that would scale to condi dmg and the aim here is to make a hybrid line, where the minor traits help both types of dmg. So unless a warr runs Trailblazer or Dire, I think it's a more useful heal mechanic, which rewards you for attacking the enemy (like adrenal health), instead of spamming might skills for MMR/MM combos or even worse spam shouts like BsW that have no impact, no active benefit etc.

Well, I am simply somewhat perplexed that this sustain method is likely going to work best with Berserker, Assassin, Marauder or Dragon builds, since you said that you wanted to give a selfheal option to condition builds. To be honest, I like the fact that Trailblazer or Dire builds get very little out of this trait, because those are relatively difficult to put down anyway.

What do you think about a trait effect that heals for a percentage of all damage dealt instead?

On 7/2/2022 at 9:13 AM, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Meh, it's a hobby at this point. Will try to perfect it as much as I can and see if the 'FeEdBacK' will ever, even, be considered. Just like the other detailed posts we have had in the previous week.

I see.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

25 minutes ago, Katary.7096 said:

Well, I am simply somewhat perplexed that this sustain method is likely going to work best with Berserker, Assassin, Marauder or Dragon builds, since you said that you wanted to give a selfheal option to condition builds. To be honest, I like the fact that Trailblazer or Dire builds get very little out of this trait, because those are relatively difficult to put down anyway.

Yeah tanky options not healing much out of this, is a welcome side-effect. 

25 minutes ago, Katary.7096 said:

What do you think about a trait effect that heals for a percentage of all damage dealt instead? 

Overpowered? Idk, maybe if it was kept at like 5% of all damage dealt? I feel like that's too strong. 

A secondary parameter gating the heal is definitely needed, so if not condi dmg or crit strikes, what would be ideal. 

Hmm, healing a bit while fury is affecting you? Like veeery very little. But that's too passive for my taste. Ill stick to the crit modifier. As the crit in the line itself might be plenty for even lacking in precision builds, to benefit. 

10 hours ago, JTGuevara.9018 said:

One of the problems with Arms, to me, is that warrior has a difficult time keeping critical-chance up in the first place never mind capping it to make use of this spec line.

Yup, that's also the aim wkth this rework between flanking enemies, precision conversion and Burst Supremacy. Ideally with a crit buff rolled into Discipline it will become easier. 

10 hours ago, JTGuevara.9018 said:

Part of the reason is that warrior does not have access to much fury to begin with.

Tried to fix the interval of fury application on bursts, with no boon duration or runes involved. I think it can easily be perma. 

10 hours ago, JTGuevara.9018 said:

Also, some of the traits either don't belong or depend too much on the RNG of critical chance without giving much, if anything, back in return.

Lesser signet of might and the unnecessary 25 stacks needed for current furious or crit chance increase on CC are all traits that imo needed a rework. You need to know what action to perform to gain a benefit, or at least lower the requirements for some effects. 

10 hours ago, JTGuevara.9018 said:

Finally, power builds seem to suffer and be excluded despite this being a hybrid spec. To me, an Arms line rework would look like this

Imma read, also adding that exactly this is the purpose of the rework. Introduce enough precision and crit chance to benefit all builds. Provide vulnerability and strike dmg modifiers and synergy and introducing some ferocity bonuses more appropriate for large scale (PvE metas, bosses, wvw zergs). 

10 hours ago, JTGuevara.9018 said:

(changes are in bold):

Furious Burst: (keep as is)

Fair, intervals can def use sone changes. 

10 hours ago, JTGuevara.9018 said:

Wounding Precision: (keep as is)

Trait is oretty isignificant imo and the bottom option when put next to Signet mastery. 

10 hours ago, JTGuevara.9018 said:

Signet Mastery: (keep as is)

Def. 

10 hours ago, JTGuevara.9018 said:

Opportunist: Gain fury and adrenaline when you inflict an enemy with a movement-impeding condition. Movement-impeding conditions inflict bleeding with each condition granting an extra 5% critical chance.

 

Nice, thicc trait. Considering you can stack slow, chill, immob and cripple relatively easily with a sigil and SpB, I think this may be too strong of a crit buff. Liking the core idea tho.

10 hours ago, JTGuevara.9018 said:

 

 

Deep Strikes: Gain extra precision for every stack of fury.

Well fury stacks duration so that might be an issue. Unless if you are basically improving fury effectiveness like with rev. 

10 hours ago, JTGuevara.9018 said:

Unsuspecting Foe: (remove this trait and replace with..)

             <NEW TRAIT>: Gain fury and inflict bleeding when you inflict an enemy with a movement-impeding condition. 

Sundering Burst: Each use of a burst skill grants fury(2s). Burst skills grant additional fury(3s) and inflict vulnerability if they hit and inflict burning if the attack is a critical hit. 

Sundering burst is def good as is and could use minor tweaks. More fury duration might not be ideal tbh with how easy it is to get. 

The new trait seems very in line with warrior, but these traits that do condis on condis seem a bit weird to me. I think crits and bleeds are fine. Just need to fix durations and chance of infliction. 

10 hours ago, JTGuevara.9018 said:

Blademaster: Gain condition damage and expertise for each sword equipped. Sword skills gain reduced recharge.

Fair option. Was thinking the same but then said maybe i should take some effect off the trait and improve a skill of each sword. A more unique trait! 

10 hours ago, JTGuevara.9018 said:

Bloodlust: (keep as is)

Needed some alterations to reflect hybrid flavor imo. Good trait nonetheless. 

10 hours ago, JTGuevara.9018 said:

Burst Precision: (replace this trait with Discipline's Crack Shot). 

Furious: Critical hits grant bonus adrenaline and gain a stacking ferocity effect. Every 5 stacks of ferocity grants fury. 

Dual Wielding: Gain ferocity or condition damage based on the offhand weapon that is equipped when wielding a main-hand weapon in your off-hand.

                                      (Sword: condition damage, Mace: ferocity, Axe: ferocity)

I got mixed feelings on crackshot in general. 

Ill finish this in a while! Stay tuned! 

10 hours ago, JTGuevara.9018 said:

And now, for explanations...! I made sure each of the major traits have at least both 1 power and 1 condition trait so the spec line can be reliably filled. Opportunist for more fury gain and you don't limit this to just immobilize. (Makes no sense to me, really...) Cripple, slow, chill are also included. Other weapon reworks to grant these conditions will enhance this trait. Deep Strikes to keep up critical-chance. It's that simple. (It's in the trait description!) Unsuspecting Foe. Yup. Remove. This is the most out-of-place trait that there is here. Replaced with a new trait that has something to offer for power, condi and hybrid builds. Sundering Burst for more fury access. You also don't get punished if you miss a burst. Blademaster. Good idea, but this change would benefit both single and dual sword wielders. And let's face it...offhand sword is no good...Burst Precision to open up for more longbow and rifle use with this line. Also, it just doesn't belong in Discipline since this trait improves the use of specific ARMS. And let's face it, nothing is competing with Warrior's Sprint. Furious for even more fury access for power builds. (Notice that each of the major traits has fury access of some kind...) Dual Wielding for both power and condi builds.

 

 

[JTGuevara.9018]

Another thought that can came into my mind: warrior is very susceptible to blind. In this day and age, a good number of classes can just spam and proc instant blind conditions. Stuff like this just trivializes the idea of melee warrior and just completely neutralizes its offense. You can't spec for and cleanse it because it will just get instantly applied again! There's no way for warrior to counter against this.

A possible suggestion, if these new elite specs aren't tweaked to reduce blinds, is to grant warrior a unique boon for blind immunity. Because let me tell you: IT NEEDS IT. Warrior is very burst-dependent. For too long warrior sets up a burst only to miss because of a procced 1 second blind.

An Arms line can incorporate this in some way and would be another reason to take it.