Old Kaineng

[The Greyhawk.9107]

Youve repeated declined to address why the juvenile Pale Tree survived when she was planted at sea level very near the coastline.

[Forgotten Legend.9281]

please also keep in mind, that Southsun Cove wasn't there when Zhaitan rose Orr. Southsun Cove only rose after the the Pact killed Zhaitan.

 

as for the Pale Tree... we don't know how big it was when the Tsunami hit. as for real world examples of trees surviving, look no further than when valleys are flooded to form lakes after new damns are build. Here in Austin, Texas, for example, Lake Travis is between 600 and 700 feet deep as a damned water reserve. and at the lake's floor, they actually provide scuba tours where you swim through the old forests which are now submerged. Now the process of filling those lakes is somewhere in between filling a pool with a water hose and a tsunami, but those trees still need to endure the "flash flood" as it initially impacts those trees. and those trees are a lot smaller than the Pale Tree.

 

i'm actually more concerned at the Pale Tree's trunk being hollow, unlike real trees. but i chalk that up to fantasy magic, just like how i chalk up the dragons and the rising of Orr and the tsunami's and flooding and such , also to said fantasy magic. basically Anet already addressed it with "magic"... nothing more needs to be said. (even if it's an old trope that many disagree with.) i can personally enjoy playing this game even though i dislike some of their lore choices and explanations.  (i won't get into the whole fire and ice dragon magic cancels each other out for the dragons but not for combat mechanics)

 

PS: for those speakers whose first language is not american english, or for those who didn't learn the same idioms as i did: the phrase "i chalk it up to" is an idiom meaning "i attribute it to"

 

"and that's all i have to say about that"

for those who are inevitably going to "prove me wrong" with their "gotcha moments" - congratulations on being smart enough to be able to release your grip of a microphone so that gravity can deposit it on the floor or ground...

[SoulGuardian.6203]

9 hours ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

Youve repeated declined to address why the juvenile Pale Tree survived when she was planted at sea level very near the coastline.

 

Yes. Very good observation.

The young pale tree in GW1 is in a tiny island/mud bank in the Tarnished Coast. 

...Surrounded by water that comes from an inlet from the coast. 

The pale tree would have not survived.

So the Sylvari should not exist.

Edited July 6, 2022 by SoulGuardian.6203

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

On 7/2/2022 at 10:35 AM, Kalavier.1097 said:

Could it, hypothetically, be that the lower levels of the city were swamp-like and inhabited by the Naga, and the wave just washed the debris above them away? Or an abandoned part of the city nobody really went to anymore?

Very unlikely. Firstly, it's simply impractical to build over a swamp when there's other, non-swamp, land to build over. Second, the entire theme of Kaineng City in GW1 was that it was buildings built atop of buildings resulting in the older, lower buildings becoming crushed under the weight. While the entirety of Kaineng City wasn't like that, the vast majority was. So it would be further weirder for them to not make full use of it.

Additionally, despite the whole "naga lands" and "swamp area" lore, the environment also tells us that... there were old architecture there, left ruinous, similar to the Old Kaineng portion - where the naga events occur is such ruins. This implies that, despite dialogue saying "no city here" that there was city there.

 

It isn't even a retcon, it's simply back-and-forth contradictory. It comes off as having two different groups among the developers who where Dev Group A thought "city was here" and Dev Group B thought "no city here". And based on what says what, the environment designer(s) were Group A, and the writer(s) were Group B.

On 7/4/2022 at 7:06 PM, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

You're saying in theory, and comparing a country being slowly pulled from the depths of the ocean, to a massive impact or showave effect. 

They are two very different effects.

If Zhaitan pulled Orr from the deep at a large speed, everything would just crumble.

We know from the announcement trailer, Victory or Death cinematic, and the Sea of Sorrows novel that Orr's rise wasn't exactly slow. The entirety of Orr rose in matter of seconds. This would definitely result in a tidal wave.

On 7/4/2022 at 7:06 PM, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

Let's be realistic. 

Not even Zhaitan can defy gravity; so, in order for a wave to be large enough to reach Cantha, a massive shockwave would have to happen.

Zhaitan most definitely can defy gravity. The quality of those wings, no matter how numerous, would not be capable of keeping Zhaitan in the air - let alone with the movements they use during his flight.

On 7/4/2022 at 8:31 PM, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

I've slightly less of a problem with the distance of the 'Orr Tsunami' and it destruction of Kaineng and more of a problem with it managing to do this much damage to Cantha, but in Tyria the rising of Orr mostly only drowned Lion's Arch and did some comparitivly slight shifting of the coastline.  If there were at all consistent then the Pale Tree would have been washed away almost a hundred years before she would have had a chance to start creating the Sylvari, along with much of the rest of the southern half of the Tarnished Coast.  And surely Shing Jea should be in worse shape than its currently in.  Its all just so contrived.

Fundamentally speaking, tsuanmis would get more devastating the further range they managed to get before being hit. I do agree that the damage to Kaineng is unrealistically overkill, but it being more devastating for Kaineng than Lion's Arch is not unrealistic at all.

What's weirder is that the Canthans proclaim that Soo-Won weakened the tidal wave with a smaller one of her own. Unless this tidal wave only protected Shing Jea alone, there's no explanation for why Kaineng was so heavily devastated while Shing Jea wasn't - indeed, it is a bit contrived.

 

As to the Pale Tree's survival - aside from not knowing how big and sturdy it was 150 years after GW1, there are, in both games, several tall hills / small mountains that separate the Pale Tree from the sea. This would have broken the waves' force and weaken the effect significantly - there would have been flooding in the region, and said flooding can easily explain why Ventari's Sanctuary settlement is practically vanished, but that would not have affected the Pale Tree which in less than 6 years went from a seed to a 1 story tall tree with a trunk thicker than your thiccest ogre.

20 hours ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

Zhaitan can fly yes.

But you know very well that's not what I meant.

Nothing can defy gravity in terms of physics. 

• Rata Sum.
• Wizard's Tower.
• The GW1 statues of Dwayna.
• Certain spellcasting animations (especially in GW1).
• Golems even.

 

There is a LOT of kitten in Tyria that defies gravity in terms of physics. And why is very clear: magic. And Zhaitan has a kitten ton of magic. Zhaitan simply doesn't have the physical mass or muscle to lift up the entirety of Orr, so it's clear it was done with magic. And when magic's involved, it can be raised fast and intact. Which given the description seen in Sea of Sorrows, it was magic. I don't have the book on hand, but if memory serves, it was basically a Moses-Parting-The-Sea while Orr was lifted up situation.

9 hours ago, Forgotten Legend.9281 said:

please also keep in mind, that Southsun Cove wasn't there when Zhaitan rose Orr. Southsun Cove only rose after the the Pact killed Zhaitan.

This isn't true, the island isn't that new. It was formed during Zhaitan's reign, when naval travel was severely limited. It was discovered after Zhaitan's death. With the notable exception of Pearl Inlet, which seems to have much older ruins (which is why the JP achievement at said ruins is called "new management").

Edited July 6, 2022 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Forgotten Legend.9281]

31 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

This isn't true, the island isn't that new. It was formed during Zhaitan's reign, when naval travel was severely limited. It was discovered after Zhaitan's death. With the notable exception of Pearl Inlet, which seems to have much older ruins (which is why the JP achievement at said ruins is called "new management").

the point was simply that Southsun Cove couldn't have affected the tsunami caused by the rising of Orr... and the presumption i made is easy to make, for, as stated by the wiki: "The area where Southsun Cove is located was originally shown as open ocean on the world map." (which i remember vividly as well, since i played in the 3-day headstart). 

 

since the island was not discovered until after Zhaitan was defeated, and considering how large the island is, essentially closing off the gap between the Sea of Sorrows and the Unending Ocean, it's very easy to presume that it just wasn't there. sure, before the personal story begins, it is said that ships rarely ventured near Orr for fear of the Risen, but it's hard to believe that all those ships routing from Rata Sum to Lion's Arch and back, and all the airships travelling to Orr from the north would have missed sighting the place. (the airship's travelling from factories in the north may only be headcanon, presuming of course that the Pact assembled some airships at Fort Trinity, while also assembling more airships in the north, say at Vigil Keep and the Iron Citadel and Rata Sum if they had permission. it's very difficult to locate the pre-Aerodrome airship factories based on game maps, because none were ever included in the original maps. and beside the aerodrome, the only others belonging to the pact were in Silverwastes, unless the Pact took over any of the Aetherblade airship factories after attacking them)

 

basically, the TLDR of that second paragraph is that southsun cove's existence (size and location) or rather LATE DISCOVERY based on it's location and size, is a bit contrived. 

 

P.S. regarding your signature... of course you're going to annoy people when you tell them they are lying. and of course they will feel insulted instead of saying "this isn't true," perhaps it wouldn't be as insulting to say "this may not be true, since Anet didn't specifically stated when the island rose, they only said when it was discovered." and since your signature brags about annoying people, i'm now adding you to my ignore list.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

12 minutes ago, Forgotten Legend.9281 said:

the point was simply that Southsun Cove couldn't have affected the tsunami caused by the rising of Orr... and the presumption i made is easy to make, for, as stated by the wiki: "The area where Southsun Cove is located was originally shown as open ocean on the world map." (which i remember vividly as well, since i played in the 3-day headstart). 

 

since the island was not discovered until after Zhaitan was defeated, and considering how large the island is, essentially closing off the gap between the Sea of Sorrows and the Unending Ocean, it's very easy to presume that it just wasn't there. sure, before the personal story begins, it is said that ships rarely ventured near Orr for fear of the Risen, but it's hard to believe that all those ships routing from Rata Sum to Lion's Arch and back, and all the airships travelling to Orr from the north would have missed sighting the place. (the airship's travelling from factories in the north may only be headcanon, presuming of course that the Pact assembled some airships at Fort Trinity, while also assembling more airships in the north, say at Vigil Keep and the Iron Citadel and Rata Sum if they had permission. it's very difficult to locate the pre-Aerodrome airship factories based on game maps, because none were ever included in the original maps. and beside the aerodrome, the only others belonging to the pact were in Silverwastes, unless the Pact took over any of the Aetherblade airship factories after attacking them)

 

basically, the TLDR of that second paragraph is that southsun cove's existence (size and location) or rather LATE DISCOVERY based on it's location and size, is a bit contrived. 

There's a dissonance between lore and mechanics even in terms of zone sizes. The world map isn't properly scaled and neither are zones. Southsun lorewise wouldn't be making up such a huge portion of the Sea of Sorrows as it does - if you go to the western side of the Southsun zone, you don't see Caledon Forest, for example. And ArenaNet does a good job of making bordering zones visible (e.g., while in Diessa you can see portion of Wayfarer, even Cragstead that got updated after the game's launch).

Even different zones appear to be scaled differently in accordance to lore - Southsun, for example, appears to be scaled much closer 1:1 lore:mechanics than other zones, given dialogue and lore around the zone.

 

Quote

P.S. regarding your signature... of course you're going to annoy people when you tell them they are lying. and of course they will feel insulted instead of saying "this isn't true," perhaps it wouldn't be as insulting to say "this may not be true, since Anet didn't specifically stated when the island rose, they only said when it was discovered." and since your signature brags about annoying people, i'm now adding you to my ignore list.

If something isn't true, then it isn't true. Facts are facts and there's no changing that. I didn't say you were lying, I was saying you were mistaken - lying indicates intent, and I never claimed nor implied you were saying wrong information intentionally. But if you are inclined to take people as insulting you by default and not assume good faith, if you're that sensitive to being mistaken, I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise.

Edited July 6, 2022 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Kalavier.1097]

18 hours ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

Youve repeated declined to address why the juvenile Pale Tree survived when she was planted at sea level very near the coastline.

Assuming the Pale Tree at the time was small. Even if it was half the size it was ingame, it'd be massive and it's root structure appears like a mangrove, spread out and like stilts. Which from brief research, mangrove forests/coastal forests do lessen the impact of waves vs coastal cities.

16 hours ago, Forgotten Legend.9281 said:

as for the Pale Tree... we don't know how big it was when the Tsunami hit. as for real world examples of trees surviving, look no further than when valleys are flooded to form lakes after new damns are build. Here in Austin, Texas, for example, Lake Travis is between 600 and 700 feet deep as a damned water reserve. and at the lake's floor, they actually provide scuba tours where you swim through the old forests which are now submerged. Now the process of filling those lakes is somewhere in between filling a pool with a water hose and a tsunami, but those trees still need to endure the "flash flood" as it initially impacts those trees. and those trees are a lot smaller than the Pale Tree.

Pale tree is pretty big, but as above, it's kinda like the type of trees found in Mangroves.

9 hours ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

 

Yes. Very good observation.

The young pale tree in GW1 is in a tiny island/mud bank in the Tarnished Coast. 

...Surrounded by water that comes from an inlet from the coast. 

The pale tree would have not survived.

So the Sylvari should not exist.

Young pale tree was in a coastal forest, but that was 150 years before Zhaitan woke up roughly. Assuming it was still tiny at that point and not closer to it's massive GW2 size is silly.

 

7 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Very unlikely. Firstly, it's simply impractical to build over a swamp when there's other, non-swamp, land to build over. Second, the entire theme of Kaineng City in GW1 was that it was buildings built atop of buildings resulting in the older, lower buildings becoming crushed under the weight. While the entirety of Kaineng City wasn't like that, the vast majority was. So it would be further weirder for them to not make full use of it.

Additionally, despite the whole "naga lands" and "swamp area" lore, the environment also tells us that... there were old architecture there, left ruinous, similar to the Old Kaineng portion - where the naga events occur is such ruins. This implies that, despite dialogue saying "no city here" that there was city there.

 

It isn't even a retcon, it's simply back-and-forth contradictory. It comes off as having two different groups among the developers who where Dev Group A thought "city was here" and Dev Group B thought "no city here". And based on what says what, the environment designer(s) were Group A, and the writer(s) were Group B.

I was meaning more of the area was abandoned, and almost became swampy.

Still, I'm content to leave it as along the lines of "Was a city/abandoned part of the city, it got wiped out, Naga resettled there, and then Canthan forces came back to reclaim it."

[SoulGuardian.6203]

10 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Very unlikely. Firstly, it's simply impractical to build over a swamp when there's other, non-swamp, land to build over. Second, the entire theme of Kaineng City in GW1 was that it was buildings built atop of buildings resulting in the older, lower buildings becoming crushed under the weight. While the entirety of Kaineng City wasn't like that, the vast majority was. So it would be further weirder for them to not make full use of it.

Additionally, despite the whole "naga lands" and "swamp area" lore, the environment also tells us that... there were old architecture there, left ruinous, similar to the Old Kaineng portion - where the naga events occur is such ruins. This implies that, despite dialogue saying "no city here" that there was city there.

 

It isn't even a retcon, it's simply back-and-forth contradictory. It comes off as having two different groups among the developers who where Dev Group A thought "city was here" and Dev Group B thought "no city here". And based on what says what, the environment designer(s) were Group A, and the writer(s) were Group B.

We know from the announcement trailer, Victory or Death cinematic, and the Sea of Sorrows novel that Orr's rise wasn't exactly slow. The entirety of Orr rose in matter of seconds. This would definitely result in a tidal wave.

Zhaitan most definitely can defy gravity. The quality of those wings, no matter how numerous, would not be capable of keeping Zhaitan in the air - let alone with the movements they use during his flight.

Fundamentally speaking, tsuanmis would get more devastating the further range they managed to get before being hit. I do agree that the damage to Kaineng is unrealistically overkill, but it being more devastating for Kaineng than Lion's Arch is not unrealistic at all.

What's weirder is that the Canthans proclaim that Soo-Won weakened the tidal wave with a smaller one of her own. Unless this tidal wave only protected Shing Jea alone, there's no explanation for why Kaineng was so heavily devastated while Shing Jea wasn't - indeed, it is a bit contrived.

 

As to the Pale Tree's survival - aside from not knowing how big and sturdy it was 150 years after GW1, there are, in both games, several tall hills / small mountains that separate the Pale Tree from the sea. This would have broken the waves' force and weaken the effect significantly - there would have been flooding in the region, and said flooding can easily explain why Ventari's Sanctuary settlement is practically vanished, but that would not have affected the Pale Tree which in less than 6 years went from a seed to a 1 story tall tree with a trunk thicker than your thiccest ogre.

• Rata Sum.
• Wizard's Tower.
• The GW1 statues of Dwayna.
• Certain spellcasting animations (especially in GW1).
• Golems even.

 

There is a LOT of kitten in Tyria that defies gravity in terms of physics. And why is very clear: magic. And Zhaitan has a kitten ton of magic. Zhaitan simply doesn't have the physical mass or muscle to lift up the entirety of Orr, so it's clear it was done with magic. And when magic's involved, it can be raised fast and intact. Which given the description seen in Sea of Sorrows, it was magic. I don't have the book on hand, but if memory serves, it was basically a Moses-Parting-The-Sea while Orr was lifted up situation.

This isn't true, the island isn't that new. It was formed during Zhaitan's reign, when naval travel was severely limited. It was discovered after Zhaitan's death. With the notable exception of Pearl Inlet, which seems to have much older ruins (which is why the JP achievement at said ruins is called "new management").

Yeah.

You forgot Bloodstone fen too.

You're trying to look smart by pointing out small bits of land and rock that float with magic.

READ my previous comments to that again.

Unless Zhaitan him self likes to play little barby houses, and carefully placed the boats on top of hills all over Orr, you cannot come up with a plausible explanation why aren't they bits of debris floating in the water, let alone how carefully they are placed that way;  unless, as I said, it took several days in a very slow motion for Orr to be completely raised from underwater; and that would have not caused the devastation the flood did.

Stop trying to find a way around it.

You cannot deny the fact that all the places that meant something  in GW1 was either desyroyed, flooded, berried, or completely vanished.

.. and therefore, going back to OP, it would have not flooded Kaineng City.

The sea levels would have never raised enough to cause a concern. 

For that to have happened, then the fire islands would have been almost completely submerged, so would Istan, and Sandswept isles.

This is logic.

Unless you're saying that Zhaitan itself handpicked the places and used magic to funnel in the flood into those places... just like the Lich did way back in prophecies with the Titans.

 

Edited July 6, 2022 by SoulGuardian.6203

[Kalavier.1097]

1 hour ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

Unless Zhaitan him self likes to play little barby houses, and carefully placed the boats on top of hills all over Orr, you cannot come up with a plausible explanation why aren't they bits of debris floating in the water, let alone how carefully they are placed that way;  unless, as I said, it took several days in a very slow motion for Orr to be completely raised from underwater; and that would have not caused the devastation the flood did.

We can literally visit ghosts whose ship was caught on the rising landmass of Orr and they got slaughtered by Risen.

You can complain about how the "boats should be tiny bits of wood." all you want but the lore is there, the Raising of Orr wasn't some super slow, steady thing, but a drastic raising.

It's one thing to ponder why X may have happened or not.

It's another to outright and explicitly state "This stated event that has witnesses." didn't happen.

[SoulGuardian.6203]

1 hour ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

We can literally visit ghosts whose ship was caught on the rising landmass of Orr and they got slaughtered by Risen.

You can complain about how the "boats should be tiny bits of wood." all you want but the lore is there, the Raising of Orr wasn't some super slow, steady thing, but a drastic raising.

It's one thing to ponder why X may have happened or not.

It's another to outright and explicitly state "This stated event that has witnesses." didn't happen.

Then it's not well thought out.

It's the details that make all the difference. 

You cannot devastate hand picked areas just for the sake of it, and leave others that are more susceptible to damage from a tidal wave; being closer to orr, and lower land mass, almost at sea level.

This is not complaining. It's highlighting facts, that you cannot change no matter how much of a tantrum you throw, or try to convey that it's acceptable because of magic and lore. 

This is what has been discussed from the beggining, including facts that you chose to ignore.

One of them being:

If Kaineng City has been almost wiped out of the map, so why hasn't areas that... read above.

I'll say it again.

Areas such as the fire islands, sandswept, scavengers causeway, etc... should be completely submerged. 

So would tarnish coast, which would destroy the pale tree, and Sylvari shouldn't have come to be.

If you're going to do something, do it right.

You cannot possibly try to argue that, no matter how many ways around you try to find.

Zhaitan, and magic, and lore, and such.

Right. Look how powerful zhaitan is/was.

Got his backside kicked by a couple of cannons mounted on an airship.

Why didn't it use its oh so powerful magic and blew the airship to smithereens!?

Right!

 

 

Edited July 7, 2022 by SoulGuardian.6203

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

7 hours ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

Yeah.

You forgot Bloodstone fen too.

You're trying to look smart by pointing out small bits of land and rock that float with magic.

Not "trying to look smart". I'm was pointing out how false your claim was.

7 hours ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

READ my previous comments to that again.

Unless Zhaitan him self likes to play little barby houses, and carefully placed the boats on top of hills all over Orr, you cannot come up with a plausible explanation why aren't they bits of debris floating in the water, let alone how carefully they are placed that way;  unless, as I said, it took several days in a very slow motion for Orr to be completely raised from underwater; and that would have not caused the devastation the flood did.

Stop trying to find a way around it.

You're pretty clearly missing my point. Zhaitan didn't Handpick the places he used magic to preserve", he preserved the whole peninsula on a whole. Why? The legendary weapon text blurbs make it clear, just as much as all the risen shouting: Zhaitan rules through undeath. It very much would retain the country's infrastructure (as much as it could) in order to rule it.

Further, read the Sea of Sorrows novel, it directly describes the rising of Orr, and it rose in minutes at most, seconds more reasonable. Most certainly not several days. And this is canon lore, no interpretation about it. I'm actually home since it's the evening now and can pull out the book. To quote:

 

Along the southern horizon, a dark line swelled against the gray-green clouds. It rose up from the sea, first a thread, then a rope, then a hand's breadth of thickness, and then, impossibly, reaching higher than the forecastle-higher, even, than the ship's yardarms on her great masts, all while it was still too far away to ripple the sea around the Indomitable's bow.

It was a massive wave, a tsunami. Cobiah had seen storm billows in Lion's Arch. One year when he was a child, there had been a great storm in Lion's Arch. When the sun went down, a little cluster of sturdy houses stood along the sandy strip near the docks. When it came up the next morning, after the storm had blown itself out, the sand was clear, clean, and empty. The houses, families and all, had simply ceased to exist. Later, sailors said those waves stood more than twelve feet high when they hit shore. Those storms were nothing compared to the wall of water filling the sky on the Indomitable's starboard side. Because of his awkward vantage point high amid the topsails, Cobiah was the first to see the wave coming. It crested more than twice as high as the ship's great mast, and it was still growing. Cobiah struggled to understand-there wasn't even a storm on the horizon. Something must have happened past Malchor's Fingers, deep in the heart of the ocean of Orr.

They were cheering far too loudly to hear Cobiah. Only Sethus remained below the broken mast, chopping desperately at stays and ropes to separate the sinking canvas from the galleon's rigging. He looked up at Cobiah, white faced. "Hold on, Cobiah! Don't let go of the mast!" Seconds were passing, but they felt like hours. The sailors never even saw the wave until it was too late.

It rolled across the ocean's surface as fast as flickering lightning, closing the distance in breaths. The wall of water was curved at the top, snarling with white foam, sweeping aside everything in its path. The ocean dropped beneath them as the tsunami pulled close, and the Indomitable groaned and settled in the water. Cheers turned into shouts of fear as the sailors finally saw the wave. Cobiah's stomach whirled, sickened by the motion of the great galleon in the ragged swell of water. The tsunami bore the ship aloft in slow motion, pitching her inexorably forward. For one horrible breath of time, the Indomitable stood on her stern, nearly perpendicular to the ocean floor.

From his perspective at the top of the mast's rigging, Cobiah felt the graceful rise and tilt, the sway of rope and the twist of the galleon in the current of the wave. It felt as though he were riding some kind of wind beast, lifted into the air on graceful, weightless wings.

The wave crested with maddening slowness. If there were screams on the deck below, they were muffled by the sound of rushing water, and Cobiah couldn't hear them. If the sailors prayed to the Six Gods, their cries were lost in the crash of the crest against wood. Everything seemed overwhelmingly bright, and loud, and terrifying. Cobiah was pitched higher and higher still as the galleon rolled, until for just a moment, he saw over the peak of the massive wave. There, in the center of the darkest, deepest ocean in the world, at the very heart of the Sea of Sorrows, Cobiah saw something that should not have existed.

He saw land, where there was nothing but ocean.

Dark, tattered wings, as if something long dead was rising from the grave.

Ancient cathedrals of coral-crusted stone. Torn flesh and ice-white bone against a storm-laden sky. Corpses, crawling from the waterlogged earth like maggots; bodies by the thousands, roiling like waves themselves over sodden ground.

As Cobiah stared in shock, the wave fully crested. The Indomitable teetered in the curl of the blizzard-white water,then pitched violently downward, rolling onto her back with a horrible crashing yaw. Foam shattered timbers and masts beneath the massive weight of the wave. With a low, deathly groan, the mighty galleon rolled over beneath a thousand tons of sea.

The Indomitable was lost.

 

Pages 63-66 of Sea of Sorrows novel. It completely demonstrates the speed of the tidal wave's creation, mere seconds from the ocean's horizon where it was a thin line, to the point it was upon the ship. With all the land to see and none of the water on the other side of the wave.

Not even sure why we're arguing this, since it is obviously canon lore that the rising of Orr caused a massive tsunami. Every single source on the topic says exactly that. So therefore it couldn't have been a slow rise that caused mere ripples. Magic exists in the world and the Elder Dragons are repeatedly described as more magical than physical. What we have are two simple facts that, if there was no magic involved, wouldn't be logical. Fact A: The rising of Orr happened in seconds/minutes at most. Fact B: the architecture was (mostly) left intact and shipwrecks were caused in the rise.

Both of these are undeniable facts and canon lore.

7 hours ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

You cannot deny the fact that all the places that meant something  in GW1 was either desyroyed, flooded, berried, or completely vanished.

I never argued against this, in fact I was acknowledging it. However, places in GW1 being destroyed in some manner by GW2 is fully and completely unrelated to the speed of Orr's rise.

7 hours ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

.. and therefore, going back to OP, it would have not flooded Kaineng City.

The sea levels would have never raised enough to cause a concern. 

For that to have happened, then the fire islands would have been almost completely submerged, so would Istan, and Sandswept isles.

This is logic.

False. Take the position of Orr, the landmasses between Orr and those places, and the distance from Orr to those places. Take how tsunamis function over distance.

• The Ring of Fire were completely reshaped by the Rising of Orr.
• Istan and Sandswept Isles were mostly out of the way of the of the Rising of Orr due to the presence of Scavenger's Causeway, only partially being hit by the wave. Istan would mostly suffer on the western end, which is left unexplored and thus in an unknown state.
• And of course Scavenger's Causeway wasn't destroyed (presumably, we've not been there to see) because there simply wasn't enough water between Zhaitan's point of rise and where the landmass began.
• Northern Kaineng City had zero barriers and lots of water between it and Orr, allowing the tsunami to rise in power and strength to hit it far more devastatingly than it does the Ring of Fire and western Istan and Lion's Arch.

 

Northern Kaineng City - Kaineng Center, Raisu Palace, and Bukdek Byway - makes perfect sense to be devastated by the tsunami. However, I do agree that the rest of Kaineng City - Tahnakkai Temple, the area where New Kaineng was built, and espectially the portion south of that which has completely vanished - should be barely touched or not harmed at all (depending on how south it is). And Shing Jea should have suffered more, unless Soo-Won's counter-tsunami was mainly protecting Shing Jea Island.

4 hours ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

You cannot devastate hand picked areas just for the sake of it, and leave others that are more susceptible to damage from a tidal wave; being closer to orr, and lower land mass, almost at sea level.

That's not how tsunamis work. Closest regions aren't most at danger in tsunamis caused from displacement. What weakens tsunamis isn't distance, but shallowness of the water and height of the land, and spread of energy of the waves. Since tsunamis are effectively the horizontal channeling of energy through water, so long as that energy doesn't dissipate, distance doesn't matter for jack and could even serve to heighten the tsunami. And given this tsunami was of magical origin, there's no deductive way to determine how that energy would function over simple distance.

4 hours ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

So would tarnish coast, which would destroy the pale tree, and Sylvari shouldn't have come to be.

If you're going to do something, do it right.

You cannot possibly try to argue that, no matter how many ways around you try to find.

Again, the Pale Tree isn't on the shore - go into the region in GW1 and you'll find that the Pale Tree is actually protected by small cliffs. This is also true for Port Stalwart in Sea of Sorrows, and is an explicit point of argument made for why it survived the tsunami.

4 hours ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

Zhaitan, and magic, and lore, and such.

Right. Look how powerful zhaitan is/was.

Got his backside kicked by a couple of cannons mounted on an airship.

Why didn't it use its oh so powerful magic and blew the airship to smithereens!?

Right!

Did you not pay attention at all during the last chapter of the Personal Story? The entire plot of Chapter 8 is about weakening Zhaitan before confronting it. The temple metas are all about cutting Zhaitan off from that magic. We killed the Mouth of Zhaitan to prevent it from receiving magic from the land's artifacts. We purified the Artesian Waters with Trahearne to cut it off from the ley-line network.

Zhaitan was literally falling apart due to starvation when we finally fight him. We weakened it, drained it of most of its magic, before confronting it. And even then, it still did swat several airships out of the sky like they were nothing, until we poisoned what magic remained in its body with the cannons on the Glory of Tyria.

[SoulGuardian.6203]

9 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Not "trying to look smart". I'm was pointing out how false your claim was.

You're pretty clearly missing my point. Zhaitan didn't Handpick the places

Exactly my point.

Don't you understand sarcasm?

Quote

he used magic to preserve", he preserved the whole peninsula on a whole. Why? The legendary weapon text blurbs make it clear, just as much as all the risen shouting: Zhaitan rules through undeath. It very much would retain the country's infrastructure (as much as it could) in order to rule it.

Perserve some, and leave others to rot, or get destroyed in the process.

Ok got it. No I don't...

Still doesn't make any sense.

 

Quote

Further, read the Sea of Sorrows novel, it directly describes the rising of Orr, and it rose in minutes at most, seconds more reasonable. Most certainly not several days. And this is canon lore, no interpretation about it. I'm actually home since it's the evening now and can pull out the book. To quote:

 

Along the southern horizon, a dark line swelled against the gray-green clouds. It rose up from the sea, first a thread, then a rope, then a hand's breadth of thickness, and then, impossibly, reaching higher than the forecastle-higher, even, than the ship's yardarms on her great masts, all while it was still too far away to ripple the sea around the Indomitable's bow.

It was a massive wave, a tsunami. Cobiah had seen storm billows in Lion's Arch. One year when he was a child, there had been a great storm in Lion's Arch. When the sun went down, a little cluster of sturdy houses stood along the sandy strip near the docks. When it came up the next morning, after the storm had blown itself out, the sand was clear, clean, and empty. The houses, families and all, had simply ceased to exist. Later, sailors said those waves stood more than twelve feet high when they hit shore. Those storms were nothing compared to the wall of water filling the sky on the Indomitable's starboard side. Because of his awkward vantage point high amid the topsails, Cobiah was the first to see the wave coming. It crested more than twice as high as the ship's great mast, and it was still growing. Cobiah struggled to understand-there wasn't even a storm on the horizon. Something must have happened past Malchor's Fingers, deep in the heart of the ocean of Orr.

They were cheering far too loudly to hear Cobiah. Only Sethus remained below the broken mast, chopping desperately at stays and ropes to separate the sinking canvas from the galleon's rigging. He looked up at Cobiah, white faced. "Hold on, Cobiah! Don't let go of the mast!" Seconds were passing, but they felt like hours. The sailors never even saw the wave until it was too late.

It rolled across the ocean's surface as fast as flickering lightning, closing the distance in breaths. The wall of water was curved at the top, snarling with white foam, sweeping aside everything in its path. The ocean dropped beneath them as the tsunami pulled close, and the Indomitable groaned and settled in the water. Cheers turned into shouts of fear as the sailors finally saw the wave. Cobiah's stomach whirled, sickened by the motion of the great galleon in the ragged swell of water. The tsunami bore the ship aloft in slow motion, pitching her inexorably forward. For one horrible breath of time, the Indomitable stood on her stern, nearly perpendicular to the ocean floor.

From his perspective at the top of the mast's rigging, Cobiah felt the graceful rise and tilt, the sway of rope and the twist of the galleon in the current of the wave. It felt as though he were riding some kind of wind beast, lifted into the air on graceful, weightless wings.

The wave crested with maddening slowness. If there were screams on the deck below, they were muffled by the sound of rushing water, and Cobiah couldn't hear them. If the sailors prayed to the Six Gods, their cries were lost in the crash of the crest against wood. Everything seemed overwhelmingly bright, and loud, and terrifying. Cobiah was pitched higher and higher still as the galleon rolled, until for just a moment, he saw over the peak of the massive wave. There, in the center of the darkest, deepest ocean in the world, at the very heart of the Sea of Sorrows, Cobiah saw something that should not have existed.

He saw land, where there was nothing but ocean.

Dark, tattered wings, as if something long dead was rising from the grave.

Ancient cathedrals of coral-crusted stone. Torn flesh and ice-white bone against a storm-laden sky. Corpses, crawling from the waterlogged earth like maggots; bodies by the thousands, roiling like waves themselves over sodden ground.

As Cobiah stared in shock, the wave fully crested. The Indomitable teetered in the curl of the blizzard-white water,then pitched violently downward, rolling onto her back with a horrible crashing yaw. Foam shattered timbers and masts beneath the massive weight of the wave. With a low, deathly groan, the mighty galleon rolled over beneath a thousand tons of sea.

The Indomitable was lost.

 

Pages 63-66 of Sea of Sorrows novel. It completely demonstrates the speed of the tidal wave's creation, mere seconds from the ocean's horizon where it was a thin line, to the point it was upon the ship. With all the land to see and none of the water on the other side of the wave.

A book's lore is pure fantasy and it goes the way the author wants.

It's not actual real facts.

It still doesn't explain why areas that are more vunerable suffered less damage than ones that were sturdier. 

But you still pressist in finding ways to prove me wrong.

Quote

Not even sure why we're arguing this, since it is obviously canon lore that the rising of Orr caused a massive tsunami. Every single source on the topic says exactly that. So therefore it couldn't have been a slow rise that caused mere ripples. Magic exists in the world and the Elder Dragons are repeatedly described as more magical than physical. What we have are two simple facts that, if there was no magic involved, wouldn't be logical. Fact A: The rising of Orr happened in seconds/minutes at most. Fact B: the architecture was (mostly) left intact and shipwrecks were caused in the rise.

Both of these are undeniable facts and canon lore.

Again. Unless Zhaitan placed some sort of protection spell around very easily breakable objects, it still doesn't make sense why they would stay intact, according to how fast Orr rose.

Orr itself would have been decimated.

Quote

I never argued against this, in fact I was acknowledging it. However, places in GW1 being destroyed in some manner by GW2 is fully and completely unrelated to the speed of Orr's rise.

False.

1. I never stated they all were.

In fact, I posted several times that those places were also completely destroyed by other means, taken over by enemy forces, berried, etc...

2. I did stated that the majority of places that were destroyed by Orr's tsunami are handpicked and inconsistent. 

 

Quote

Take the position of Orr, the landmasses between Orr and those places, and the distance from Orr to those places. Take how tsunamis function over distance.

• The Ring of Fire were completely reshaped by the Rising of Orr.
• Istan and Sandswept Isles were mostly out of the way of the of the Rising of Orr due to the presence of Scavenger's Causeway, only partially being hit by the wave. Istan would mostly suffer on the western end, which is left unexplored and thus in an unknown state.

...and this just proves my point.

Quote

• And of course Scavenger's Causeway wasn't destroyed (presumably, we've not been there to see) because there simply wasn't enough water between Zhaitan's point of rise and where the landmass began.

Half true, but ok.

I can go along with this one.

We don't know the state of scavengers causeway.

Quote

• Northern Kaineng City had zero barriers and lots of water between it and Orr, allowing the tsunami to rise in power and strength to hit it far more devastatingly than it does the Ring of Fire and western Istan and Lion's Arch.

A tidal wave eventually decipates. It doesn't go on forever... gaining more and more strength. That's bologni.

If that was the case, half of the real world would have been underwater by now.

Quote

 

Northern Kaineng City - Kaineng Center, Raisu Palace, and Bukdek Byway - makes perfect sense to be devastated by the tsunami. However, I do agree that the rest of Kaineng City - Tahnakkai Temple, the area where New Kaineng was built, and espectially the portion south of that which has completely vanished - should be barely touched or not harmed at all (depending on how south it is). And Shing Jea should have suffered more, unless Soo-Won's counter-tsunami was mainly protecting Shing Jea Island.

Speculation. Hearsay.

Quote

That's not how tsunamis work.

Oh?

Cause you're the expert now!?

You cannot assume you know all about tsunamis just for reading some fantasy novel, and copying n paste something you read on an article.

Again, the author of a book will change the lore as they see fit in order to write the story the way the want. 

That's what you're doing right now.

 

Quote

 

Closest regions aren't most at danger in tsunamis caused from displacement. What weakens tsunamis isn't distance,

But it is.

I know for a fact.

I live near two plutonic plates that are constantly grinding with one another.

We constantly get yellow alerts.

By the time the wave reaches our fist, it's dead.

So don't try argue with me something that I know 100%

The most we got on a red alert was a series of 2 meter waves down my side, and 3 meters on the west side.

Yet we felt the earthquake.

 

 

Quote

but shallowness of the water and height of the land, and spread of energy of the waves. Since tsunamis are effectively the horizontal channeling of energy through water, so long as that energy doesn't dissipate, distance doesn't matter for jack

Wrong. 

It does. I just responded to that. 

But yes. Terrain also has its play.

Other sea currents that works as breaks, or to speed it up.

Quote

and could even serve to heighten the tsunami. And given this tsunami was of magical origin, there's no deductive way to determine how that energy would function over simple distance.

...

Quote

Again, the Pale Tree isn't on the shore - go into the region in GW1 and you'll find that the Pale Tree is actually protected by small cliffs.

I know very well where the pale tee is in gw1.

And the water would have come in with enough force to wipe out all living things in the area.

You're just contradicting yourself over and over.

Quote

This is also true for Port Stalwart in Sea of Sorrows, and is an explicit point of argument made for why it survived the tsunami.

Did you not pay attention at all during the last chapter of the Personal Story? The entire plot of Chapter 8 is about weakening Zhaitan before confronting it. The temple metas are all about cutting Zhaitan off from that magic. We killed the Mouth of Zhaitan to prevent it from receiving magic from the land's artifacts. We purified the Artesian Waters with Trahearne to cut it off from the ley-line network.

Zhaitan was literally falling apart due to starvation when we finally fight him. We weakened it, drained it of most of its magic, before confronting it. And even then, it still did swat several airships out of the sky like they were nothing, until we poisoned what magic remained in its body with the cannons on the Glory of Tyria.

Yes bro. I remember most of the personal story.

But I'm kinda getting a little tired of explaining the same thing times over.

Now that you are aware that I know about tidal waves, since I live near a zone that gets them, you can't just pull out the same cards about lore and magic.

Fine, I get it. It's the game's lore.

But the question remains.

Why almost every single area that meant something in Guild Wars 1 had to be destroyed?

Which leads to Kaineng city being so by the flood, when more vunerable areas only got a little bit flooded.

... and please don't try that again about tsunami's. 

It's getting old and tedious.

Edited July 7, 2022 by SoulGuardian.6203

[Kalavier.1097]

9 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

False. Take the position of Orr, the landmasses between Orr and those places, and the distance from Orr to those places. Take how tsunamis function over distance.

• The Ring of Fire were completely reshaped by the Rising of Orr.
• Istan and Sandswept Isles were mostly out of the way of the of the Rising of Orr due to the presence of Scavenger's Causeway, only partially being hit by the wave. Istan would mostly suffer on the western end, which is left unexplored and thus in an unknown state.
• And of course Scavenger's Causeway wasn't destroyed (presumably, we've not been there to see) because there simply wasn't enough water between Zhaitan's point of rise and where the landmass began.
• Northern Kaineng City had zero barriers and lots of water between it and Orr, allowing the tsunami to rise in power and strength to hit it far more devastatingly than it does the Ring of Fire and western Istan and Lion's Arch.

 

Northern Kaineng City - Kaineng Center, Raisu Palace, and Bukdek Byway - makes perfect sense to be devastated by the tsunami. However, I do agree that the rest of Kaineng City - Tahnakkai Temple, the area where New Kaineng was built, and espectially the portion south of that which has completely vanished - should be barely touched or not harmed at all (depending on how south it is). And Shing Jea should have suffered more, unless Soo-Won's counter-tsunami was mainly protecting Shing Jea Island.

 

 

The Battle isles also got heavily reshaped too, which are on the way to Cantha.

 

I still personally hold that some of the destruction in Kaineng was formed by the coastial barriers being broken and the sea-water flooding into the undercity, like how New Orleans was when the barriers broke.

 

Though if we take the map and the description of Soo-won countering the wave, she may have arrived and stopped the Tsunami before it actually hit Shing-Jea, saving the Island but unable to save a chunk of Kaineng.

14 hours ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

Then it's not well thought out.

It's the details that make all the difference. 

You cannot devastate hand picked areas just for the sake of it, and leave others that are more susceptible to damage from a tidal wave; being closer to orr, and lower land mass, almost at sea level.

This is not complaining. It's highlighting facts, that you cannot change no matter how much of a tantrum you throw, or try to convey that it's acceptable because of magic and lore. 

This is what has been discussed from the beggining, including facts that you chose to ignore.

One of them being:

If Kaineng City has been almost wiped out of the map, so why hasn't areas that... read above.

 

Nobody is throwing a Tantrum, so calm down.

Also at the same time you bring up complaining about this, all I can point out is how Primordus moved from the northern Shiverpeaks/far shiverpeaks to the Ring of Fire islands without causing so much as a sinkhole or major Earthquake.

14 hours ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

Areas should be completely submerged. 

So would tarnish coast, which would destroy the pale tree, and Sylvari shouldn't have come to be.

 

Again assuming the pale Tree is still a tiny thing and not a massive, well-rooted tree by this point.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

4 hours ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

A book's lore is pure fantasy and it goes the way the author wants.

It's not actual real facts.

The game's lore is also pure fantasy just as all fiction is. It always goes the way the author wants. Since you don't comprehend this continuing is pointless.

You also seem to have a constant misunderstanding of how tsunamis and waves work and refusal to actually look it up (as I did) before continuing to amke sure you're not mistaken.

4 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

I still personally hold that some of the destruction in Kaineng was formed by the coastial barriers being broken and the sea-water flooding into the undercity, like how New Orleans was when the barriers broke.

This still wouldn't explain how southern Kaineng got wiped out so utterly completely. Or how Tahnnakai Temple was wiped out despite being on the safe side of Raisu Palace. Or how the area south of Shing Jea was devastated too.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

I no longer buy that even the adult Pale Tree could survive the same tsunami the destroyed the Battle Isle, most of Kaineng, AND Raisu Palace (which itself was the size of a city for reason and was built into solid stone).  Considering that the Shadow of the Dragon put her in a coma there's a strong chance a wave of that size would still kill her even if most of her structure remained intact.  Like a person breaking their neck.

Edited July 7, 2022 by The Greyhawk.9107

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

11 minutes ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

I no longer buy that even the adult Pale Tree could survive the same tsunami the destroyed the Battle Isle, most of Kaineng, AND Raisu Palace (which itself was the size of a city for reason and was built into solid stone).  Considering that the Shadow of the Dragon put her in a coma there's a strong chance a wave of that size would still kill her even if most of her structure remained intact.  Like a person breaking their neck.

1. Battle Isles were pretty short, not much needed to take them out.
2. Again, Pale Tree had natural barriers and blockades. Battle Isles and Kaineng have zero visible blockades to stop tsunamis.
3. More water to feed the tsunamis when it hits Kaineng. It would only travel maybe 15 miles before hitting the first land barrier. In other words, the waves were far larger when it would hit Cantha and the Battle Isles than when it could hit Arbor Bay - it'd be larger hitting Lion's Arch than when it would hit Arbor Bay.
4. Shadow of the Dragon attacked the Pale Tree in specific ways that a wave broken by barriers couldn't. Like difference being being hit with a club and being hit with a tall wave on the beach.

Raisu Palace's destruction makes sense, as it would basically be the first physical barrier the tsunami would hit - unlike the Pale Tree. But south of that, not really - it would get flooding at most.

 

I could theorize why south of Raisu would be destroyed, and it has a solid foundation: rot.

The tsunami itself would only devastate northern Kaineng - Raisu Palace, Bukdek Byway, Kaineng Center - because those are the first physical barriers the wave would hit. Nothing protecting them. But even with those hit, the force of the wave would still send water and debris further. Now this wouldn't immediately damage the rest of Kaineng, but it would flood Kaineng. Eventually the waters would receed, but this would take weeks at minimum. During this time, the old, breaking timber that's being crushed under the weight of dozens of other structures built on top would become wet from saltwater. Mold would seep in, the already strained wood would become weakened, and finally collapse under the weight of it all. Even in GW1, many structures were beginning to bend, tilt, and break from that weight. Wet, moldy wood wouldn't survive at all.

All during this time, Cantha is in chaos because of the rebellion against the Ministry of Purity. So there's no social infrastructure in place to handle these situations. No first responders, and no Ministry of Maintenance to keep architecture in check. This lack of human maintenance leads to more structures collapsing, more deaths, thus more risen, and more of the city becoming uninhabitable.

 

Under this idea, it wasn't the tsunami that destroyed Kaineng - it was Canthans' own negligence born from rebellion sparked by the tsunami.

 

 

Still doesn't explain that one spot south of New Kaineng though. or how New Kaineng's area was swampland before NKC being built.

[Kalavier.1097]

17 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

1. Battle Isles were pretty short, not much needed to take them out.
2. Again, Pale Tree had natural barriers and blockades. Battle Isles and Kaineng have zero visible blockades to stop tsunamis.
3. More water to feed the tsunamis when it hits Kaineng. It would only travel maybe 15 miles before hitting the first land barrier. In other words, the waves were far larger when it would hit Cantha and the Battle Isles than when it could hit Arbor Bay - it'd be larger hitting Lion's Arch than when it would hit Arbor Bay.
4. Shadow of the Dragon attacked the Pale Tree in specific ways that a wave broken by barriers couldn't. Like difference being being hit with a club and being hit with a tall wave on the beach.

Raisu Palace's destruction makes sense, as it would basically be the first physical barrier the tsunami would hit - unlike the Pale Tree. But south of that, not really - it would get flooding at most.

 

I could theorize why south of Raisu would be destroyed, and it has a solid foundation: rot.

The tsunami itself would only devastate northern Kaineng - Raisu Palace, Bukdek Byway, Kaineng Center - because those are the first physical barriers the wave would hit. Nothing protecting them. But even with those hit, the force of the wave would still send water and debris further. Now this wouldn't immediately damage the rest of Kaineng, but it would flood Kaineng. Eventually the waters would receed, but this would take weeks at minimum. During this time, the old, breaking timber that's being crushed under the weight of dozens of other structures built on top would become wet from saltwater. Mold would seep in, the already strained wood would become weakened, and finally collapse under the weight of it all. Even in GW1, many structures were beginning to bend, tilt, and break from that weight. Wet, moldy wood wouldn't survive at all.

All during this time, Cantha is in chaos because of the rebellion against the Ministry of Purity. So there's no social infrastructure in place to handle these situations. No first responders, and no Ministry of Maintenance to keep architecture in check. This lack of human maintenance leads to more structures collapsing, more deaths, thus more risen, and more of the city becoming uninhabitable.

 

Under this idea, it wasn't the tsunami that destroyed Kaineng - it was Canthans' own negligence born from rebellion sparked by the tsunami.

 

That is partly what I mean. When you look at the deep chasms in Kaineng in GW1, and the undercity/sewer areas, if the coastal wall (manmade or cliff) got broken by the Tsunami, the water wouldn't have a chance to effectively flow back out like it would drain from say, Kryta or other areas.

So you have the undercity and similar areas flooding with water and debris, causing the wooden parts of Kaineg to collapse and fall apart while the stone remains mostly intact.

 

So we have the city falling apart from neglect and chaos of risen spawning and the Ministry of Purity losing power/fighting challengers, the lower levels of the city being flooded or congested with debris, corpses, and water yet to drain.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

28 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

or how New Kaineng's area was swampland before NKC being built.

Easy, the map art for GW1 only showed generalized ideas of the map. Uncovered portions of the map quite often didn't actually reflect the map art from before it being uncovered.

There is nothing to suggest the city actually stretched down that far in the first place, and all we're seeing is year of headcanon, based around notoriously inconsistent uncovered map ar,t being proven wrong.

[SoulGuardian.6203]

1 hour ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

The game's lore is also pure fantasy just as all fiction is. It always goes the way the author wants. Since you don't comprehend this continuing is pointless.

You also seem to have a constant misunderstanding of how tsunamis and waves work and refusal to actually look it up (as I did) before continuing to amke sure you're not mistaken.

I already said that I live near by two plutonic plates that constantly grinding eachother creating earthquakes and tidal waves. I know very well how they work.

You don't get to tell me how they work.

I know.

Get that!?

...once and for all.

1 hour ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

This still wouldn't explain how southern Kaineng got wiped out so utterly completely. Or how Tahnnakai Temple was wiped out despite being on the safe side of Raisu Palace. Or how the area south of Shing Jea was devastated too.

Exactly. 

Now we're getting somewhere.

Slowly but surely, we can try find some answers here.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

3 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Easy, the map art for GW1 only showed generalized ideas of the map. Uncovered portions of the map quite often didn't actually reflect the map art from before it being uncovered.

There is nothing to suggest the city actually stretched down that far in the first place, and all we're seeing is year of headcanon, based around notoriously inconsistent uncovered map ar,t being proven wrong.

The world map was actually taken pretty literally and seriously by devs in GW1. It only became "notoriously inconsistent" with GW2. Even then, it's only inconsistent when they're making a new zone in that section.

 

And the content of the game is not headcanon, no matter how much you enjoy making that claim.

3 hours ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

I already said that I live near by two plutonic plates that constantly grinding eachother creating earthquakes and tidal waves. I know very well how they work.

You don't get to tell me how they work.

I know.

Get that!?

...once and for all.

Most people experience a thunderstorm dozens of times in a year. Doesn't mean they know how thunderstorms form or function. They just know the damages they can cause and what they personally see and hear during the thunderstorm.

 

Those who are wrong the most, tend to be those who assume they're right and don't bother to question their own knowledge. At least I bothered to look up how tsunamis work while writing my reply to you to  refresh my knowledge. Read three separate articles and even watched two videos that explained it before considering how Zhaitan's actions would cause a tsunami and how that would affect its surroundings.

Quote

Exactly. 

Now we're getting somewhere.

Slowly but surely, we can try find some answers here.

You realize that I said that in my very first post here, right? Quite literally, and I believe I said it twice in that post, even.

With you, the only thing I disagreed with initially, was your quite false claim that in order for Orr to remain intact, it had to rise out of the water slowly.

Where you then apparently took my claim that Zhaitan used magic to rise Orr and keep Orr alone intact, and claimed I was saying Zhaitan was using magic to destroy or preserve what got hit by the tsunami at its own will. Which proved you didn't even read my post, as does this.

Edited July 8, 2022 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

3 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

That is partly what I mean. When you look at the deep chasms in Kaineng in GW1, and the undercity/sewer areas, if the coastal wall (manmade or cliff) got broken by the Tsunami, the water wouldn't have a chance to effectively flow back out like it would drain from say, Kryta or other areas.

So you have the undercity and similar areas flooding with water and debris, causing the wooden parts of Kaineg to collapse and fall apart while the stone remains mostly intact.

 

So we have the city falling apart from neglect and chaos of risen spawning and the Ministry of Purity losing power/fighting challengers, the lower levels of the city being flooded or congested with debris, corpses, and water yet to drain.

I don't think the water would be incapable of receding, and I didn't argue for that either. Given Soo-Won's proclaimed "hero of Kaineng" actions, it very likely didn't remain flooded very long at all.

Even then, I was just hypothesizing how it could happen, but that's still less damage than what the world map and NPC dialogue indicates.

For example, Tahnnakai Temple being destroyed in the tsunami (not some flood after, unless all Canthans just slap it all together) still doesn't make sense even with water levels rising for a few hours/days. It was solidly protected on the northern end and of good height.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

11 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

The world map was actually taken pretty literally and seriously by devs in GW1. It only became "notoriously inconsistent" with GW2. Even then, it's only inconsistent when they're making a new zone in that section.

 

And the content of the game is not headcanon, no matter how much you enjoy making that claim.

If it was there wouldn't have been as many inconsistencies as it had even back in GW1.

Also, there was no content in the game for that area, we never went there to have any content. So yes, any assumptions of what that area was actually like is headcanon, no matter how much you try to deny that claim.

[SoulGuardian.6203]

13 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

The world map was actually taken pretty literally and seriously by devs in GW1. It only became "notoriously inconsistent" with GW2. Even then, it's only inconsistent when they're making a new zone in that section.

 

And the content of the game is not headcanon, no matter how much you enjoy making that claim.

Most people experience a thunderstorm dozens of times in a year. Doesn't mean they know how thunderstorms form or function. They just know the damages they can cause and what they personally see and hear during the thunderstorm.

 

Those who are wrong the most, tend to be those who assume they're right and don't bother to question their own knowledge. At least I bothered to look up how tsunamis work while writing my reply to you to  refresh my knowledge. Read three separate articles and even watched two videos that explained it before considering how Zhaitan's actions would cause a tsunami and how that would affect its surroundings.

You realize that I said that in my very first post here, right? Quite literally, and I believe I said it twice in that post, even.

With you, the only thing I disagreed with initially, was your quite false claim that in order for Orr to remain intact, it had to rise out of the water slowly.

Where you then apparently took my claim that Zhaitan used magic to rise Orr and keep Orr alone intact, and claimed I was saying Zhaitan was using magic to destroy or preserve what got hit by the tsunami at its own will. Which proved you didn't even read my post, as does this.

My brother who is a technician/electrician has a say:

"There is practical first hand experience and there's theorists. The theorists always think they know more and better than those who experience things first hand... "

Enough said.

So whatever dude.

You keep doing what you're doing.

I'm sure that's exactly what ANet needs.

Someone who tells them that everything is grand and awesome in order to gain kudos.

I'll stick to reality.

Maybe I'll never get the answers as to why almost every single outpost that meant anything in GW1 was either Alterered, modified, destroyed, berried, flooded, taken over, or otherwise.

But it doesn't really matter now, does it? 

What's done is done. 

Unfortunately, you are amongst the majority of people ANet are trying to please, that care more about a GS pink tutu skin for your warrior, than actuall facts that are consistent and logical.

 

No more can be said here... therefore pointless in continuing trying to convince a sparrow that the eggs in its nest belong to a coocoo bird.

 

Edited July 8, 2022 by SoulGuardian.6203

[SoulGuardian.6203]

13 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

 

And the content of the game is not headcanon, no matter how much you enjoy making that claim.

Most people experience a thunderstorm dozens of times in a year. Doesn't mean they know how thunderstorms form or function. They just know the damages they can cause and what they personally see and hear during the thunderstorm.

Wrong. 

So you're saying that fishermen with over 30 years experience at sea can't predict the weather!?

You'd be a fool.

You're claiming that theory text books know more than first hand experience? 

That is one of the most absurd statements I have ever heard.

13 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

 

Those who are wrong the most, tend to be those who assume they're right and don't bother to question their own knowledge. At least I bothered to look up how tsunamis work while writing my reply to you to  refresh my knowledge.

Knowledge of what?

When did you ever experience a tsunami first hand?

Or an earthquake for that matter?

You believe that gathered theoretical data info is more believable than first hand experience? 

You cannot possibly be serious.

13 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Read three separate articles and even watched two videos that explained it before considering how Zhaitan's actions would cause a tsunami and how that would affect its surroundings

 

Again. You are comparing pure fantasy to actual reality. 

13 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

.

You realize that I said that in my very first post here, right? Quite literally, and I believe I said it twice in that post, even.

With you, the only thing I disagreed with initially, was your quite false claim that in order for Orr to remain intact, it had to rise out of the water slowly.

Yeah. Exactly. 

For orr to be raised at a speed enough to cause a devastating tidal wave. Orr itself had to be complete rubble and debris.

Physics, Gravity, and Logic dictates it.

Period!!!

13 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Where you then apparently took my claim that Zhaitan used magic to rise Orr and keep Orr alone intact, and claimed I was saying Zhaitan was using magic to destroy or preserve what got hit by the tsunami at its own will. Which proved you didn't even read my post, as does this.

We were speculating, I believe.

Besides, you probably didn't make yourself clear enough which oppinion you had on the topic. 

I'm not hypocritical. I know when someone is agreeing or disagreed with me.

I can't just plain guess if you're statements are agreeable when you keep accusing me of posting false information, when you know that's not true at all, and on the same coin agree with certain aspects.

When you contradict someone, it's usually followed by a creditable and logical explanation. 

Again, a fantasy book, or a copy and paste from some article about one event are not reliable sources of information by any stretch of the imagination. 

 

[Kalavier.1097]

2 hours ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

For orr to be raised at a speed enough to cause a devastating tidal wave. Orr itself had to be complete rubble and debris.

Physics, Gravity, and Logic dictates it.

Period!!!

Again, you are literally pointing at explicit lore and screaming "THIS IS WRONG"

We can have discussions on the hypothetical of why X happened or Y happened, that's cool. but screaming about explicitly stated lore facts as being completely false is just foolish and won't get anything anywhere.

We had Primordus travel from the far shiverpeaks to the ring of fire without a single sinkhole or earthquake happen. He then traveled back to the shiverpeaks again without so much as a described rumble.

We had a new set of islands formed from landmass and Kralkatorrik falling into the ocean in enough mass to form new islands with decent height above the waterline, and no major waves forming because of that.

When dragons are involved, sometimes the things that follow are natural, and sometimes they just AREN'T.