Alac heal tempest is almost there but

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

As a Tempest main since it came out in HoT, I believe the following way to help the class;

1. Traits that trigger on attunement, like Water cleanse or Earth Stability, should trigger on overload for Tempest too. The Stability granted also needs to be more than just one stack.

2. Add applying Aegis on Fire attunemnt, similar to (1), as a Core trait.

3. Sigils and other effects that trigger on weaponswap should trigger on overload as well, if their ICD allows.

4. Integrate aurashare as a minor trait that is always available to Tempests, allowing for three targets.. Taking the trait from Water line as well would increase this to five targets (similar to Scourge here).

5. Alacrity should be merged with healing aura functionality. The current trait for Alacrity should be replaced with a trait that gives "Super Fury" for DPS builds exclusively, similar to Revenant and Ranger.

6. Add a new trait that causes Tempests to apply barrier whenever they cast a shout, to give shout skills an identity. Currently they have no purpose beyond utility and most of Tempest' functionality is in overloads only.

7. Bring the ammo count for fire shout up to 3 (its currently 1 in PvE, and 2 in PvP), instead of needing a trait to generate Might from the other shouts, to replace that functionality.

 

Even if you made all these changes, Tempest still wouldn't replace Firebrand or Machinist, but its a good start. It would at least allow them to play in end-game content on a competitive level.

Edited July 27, 2022 by Mariyuuna.6508

[Jmvars.4501]

The build is good, but Firebrand and Mechanist exists. Heal Alac Mechanist can provide everything Heal Alac Tempest can, but also has access to stability, aegis and barrier. Heal Firebrand can provide everything Heal Alac Tempest can, with quickness instead of alacrity, but also has access to stability and aegis.

Ironically, I think having this trade-off is good design but it suffers because nothing else has this trade-off.

Can Tempest still outheal these two with the loss of aura healing? At least give me that.

EDIT:

The alac uptime is somewhat tight in actual fights, especially if I need to cancel or skip an overload to heal my group to full. I'd really prefer not to use water overload for healing. Speaking of overloads, it sucks that you need to complete a four second channel to give alacrity. Not only does it suck for alacrity uptime but it also locks you out of everything except Feel the Burn.

Shouts should all be no cast time since they are...shouts...you shout them. That way you can Wash the Pain Away, Rebound or even Aftershock in emergencies without interrupting overload.

If ANet is insisting on alacrity being tied to overloads it should at the very least pulse it so it doesn't feel too bad to fail an overload.

 

Edited July 30, 2022 by Jmvars.4501
Additional context.

[zeyeti.8347]

Should not be that hard to make a decent healtempest .

first of all , for fury access taking the whole air traitline feels very bad , they should replace in arcane traitline the might you gain when switching to fire , into fury. 

Arcane feels more of a support traitline (with more boons duration , area revive , etc).

As for the alacrity trait given when overloading successfully , it feels not enough (many grandmaster traits from other specs who gives quickness or alacrity , have the boon access plus a bonus , example : herald has 6 mores secondes on consumation skills passiv effects once used, scrapper give quick and has 10% of might converted into concentration).

for this trait i see more a thing like that :

-When you start overloading you give alacrity to nearby allies , once you successfully finish your overload , give allies a boon depending on the attunement you overloaded in , like more might in fire , stab on earth , resolution for water , fury in air.

And last thing , they should add more consistent healing when out of water ( a tiny bastion of elements 1.1) , if you look at top healers supports atm (hfb and ham) , they have great permanent healing , mace auto (who heals like 1500 in area each sec for hfb) with sharing virtues (who is permanent , not like soothing water) , the mech able to switch anytime into medikitpack and having constent barrier application.

Those changes could make a great healtempest .

@Jmvars.4501 shouts having no cast time is a tiny change , but will make huge difference , being able to shout while overloading is a great idea 👍.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 30, 2022 by zeyeti.8347

[Massimoni.9453]

On 7/5/2022 at 12:42 AM, Erick Alastor.3917 said:

In my opinion HAT is not almost there, but still way off.

1. Good luck upkeeping perma vigor without Invigorating Torrent and good luck not having all your overloads interrupted if you won't pick Harmonious Conduit.
2. Having to use the shortbow to AA feels simply boring. I can tolerate that on a staff build, but forcing it on d/wh? Bah.
3. Not only earth is part of the rotation so it's not reliable for stab, but that stab duration via trait is abysmal even with BD cap.
4. Our (non cleave) damage is stupidly low compared to HFB.

Aegis is not a problem on HAT, it's a problem everywhere.
Anet should just get rid of it and compensate accordingly all respective classes.

Stability (IN PVE deincentivize active gamplay on non-heals specs and) feels almost like aegis, but since too many encounters take that almost for granted I suppose that it could be easier to simply spread it than fixing each encounter to force all people to actively avoid mechanics.
There would be a pretty easy way to implement it on HAT, reworking cantrips and making us able to share Armor of Earth (even at the cost of losing some stacks), but Anet doesn't like simple solutions, so I doubt that will ever happen.

And in closure... I still believe that alac on auras would have been way better and more easier to manage granting more freedom on our weapons and traits' choice, but if Anet is this stuck with overloads I'd at least increase alac by 1 more second.

You've made some interesting points there. Alac on auras would definitely make HAT more QoL than it currently is, however personally I'd just prefer the overloads to grant smaller amounts of Alac continuously instead of one big chunk at the end. Reason being: This way you wouldn't be forced into the aura playstyle of slotting every utility with them and also having to run "Powerful Aura" to even share them (the 600 radius would have to be nerfed then if you'd go that route) but still don't be punished so harshly by having your overload interrupted. I'd also like to see it get a bit more viable (wider radius, more stacks, longer duration, less tradeoff; something along those lines) stability access as in its current state it is more like a meme than anything else but imo stability should still sit mainly on HFB as that's literally the main reason you even took it seeing how its healing output is very easily outperformed and the chunk of its utility (F2+F3 tomes) sits on long cooldowns. Don't believe me? Have a look at the current meta in Raids where the nearly permanent stack of 1 stability on HAM is enough for the whole mode which causes groups to sometimes not even consider HFB anymore because why would you even. Regarding the point of removing Aegis: It's not even so much about compensating the respective classes but more about changing the content accordingly. Since they largely removed Aegis on HFB, fractals turned into CC fiestas where you'd at times get stunlocked to death as every second mob seems to have CC on their auto attacks. It already sucks what this is like now and it only gets worse by a complete removal, that stuff also has to change (which most likely they won't).

One last point but I am assuming it was a bit of a spelling mistake is the following:

"Our (non cleave) damage is stupidly low compared to HFB." Did you perhaps mean to put HAM here? This instantly seemed strange to me so I just did a bit of testing on my HFB where I actually focused DPS more than I would on a real encounter and I still didn't even get close to HATs (D/Wh, no idea where staff sits tbh) DPS, so I nowhere see HAT being "stupidly low" compared to HFB, if anything it's the opposite. Back in the day HFB was even constantly outDPSed by Druids putting it at the bottom in this aspect whereas HAM actually sits at the top here but HAT doesn't even seem that far behind. Would be great if you could state how you meant this point, as from personal experience anti-guard misconceptions spread like wildfire if this isn't just a mistake of spelling basically.

[soulknight.9620]

6 hours ago, Massimoni.9453 said:

Have a look at the current meta in Raids where the nearly permanent stack of 1 stability on HAM is enough for the whole mode which causes groups to sometimes not even consider HFB anymore because why would you even.

Well they could put 1 stack of stab on aftershock or eye of the storm and that would make tempest quite usefull to a some decree.

[zeyeti.8347]

16 hours ago, soulknight.9620 said:

Well they could put 1 stack of stab on aftershock or eye of the storm and that would make tempest quite usefull to a some decree.

Yep and it wouldnt even be a little slightly op , when u have skills like mech f2 support :  aegis , stab. , prot. , alac , condi cleanse , group breakstun, on a 600 range with 0 cast time , that skill should do the laundry too , feel a bit underwhelming ...

Just look at the launcher atm "The robotic future arrives with the jade tech appearance package" Arenanet wants us to play mech , it's a subliminal message 😒.

Edited August 1, 2022 by zeyeti.8347

[The Boz.2038]

Air shout stab. Earth shout aegis.
Mandatory, or permanently C-lister.

[Erick Alastor.3917]

On 7/31/2022 at 12:29 PM, Massimoni.9453 said:

slotting every utility with them and also having to run "Powerful Aura" to even share them

With some decent duration you wouldn't have to, and you can generate plenty of auras even without relying on utilities.

On 7/31/2022 at 12:29 PM, Massimoni.9453 said:

the 600 radius would have to be nerfed then if you'd go that route

Definitely. Probably 360 would be a good compromise.

On 7/31/2022 at 12:29 PM, Massimoni.9453 said:

imo stability should still sit mainly on HFB <...>
 

If Anet wants to normalize classes (and I agree with them) you can't have that.

On 7/31/2022 at 12:29 PM, Massimoni.9453 said:

Since they largely removed Aegis on HFB, fractals turned into CC fiestas where you'd at times get stunlocked to death

I disagree, most of the important CC can be easly avoided, Anet even reworked Last Laugh.
The only times I saw people feeling the lack of stability in all these years of running fractals it's on the last boss of chaos (because it makes the fight harder) and on aquatic last one (because it makes the fight annoying and longer). 

On 7/31/2022 at 12:29 PM, Massimoni.9453 said:

removing Aegis: It's not even so much about compensating the respective classes but more about changing the content accordingly

I believe that if an important attack is coming, as long it's appropriately telegraphed a healer should just try to save the situation after people get hit by that attack, being able to negate it for the whole party it's a problem.
People won't even notice they did something wrong, and way more weight will be put on the healer' shoulders, without even considering that access to aegis is grossly disproportionate among classes.

On 7/31/2022 at 12:29 PM, Massimoni.9453 said:

Did you perhaps mean to put HAM here?

Tested in real fractal scenarios every day.
Celestial gear for both.
Also remember that if you test alone you don't get advantage of Ashes of the Just.
The main difference is that on HFB you have a very short window dedicated to some good burst dmg.
And the rest of your dps is basically part of your healing rotation.
Plus it doesn't matter what you're doing you can refresh your quick generation without interrupting your rotation, even while ressing (having a short channel only on your elite).
Ele on the other hand is stuck in ridicolusly long casting that you may need to interrupt to avoid dmg/ress or can get randomnly interrupted by a simple daze going on a very long CDs, impairing significantly its dps.

As you suggested, if Anet wants to stick with overloads and not consider auras, probably pulsing alac could be a good solution.

Edited August 6, 2022 by Erick Alastor.3917

[crosknight.3041]

one idea i came up with to further help lucid singularity is to add on to the trait that it reduces cast time of overloads by 50% (without reducing the number of hits it provides to prevent already diminished offensive to be further diminished). as well as the previously stated alacrity across parts of the overload (now provided every .5s over the course of 2s)

[Kuya.6495]

Not the shouts I suggested, but i appreciate anet did decide to put stab and aegis on shouts regardless. Hopefully this will make heal alac tempest more competitive after the dust settles. 

[crosknight.3041]

1 hour ago, Kuya.6495 said:

Not the shouts I suggested, but i appreciate anet did decide to put stab and aegis on shouts regardless. Hopefully this will make heal alac tempest more competitive after the dust settles. 

personally i would like more stability on eye of the storm. one stab seems not enough.
for comparison we have "Stand your ground." both are stunbreaks, 600 range, and 5 targets on a 30s cooldown. SYG gives 5 stab for 6s and resolution for 5s. both are pretty good. EotS gives Swiftness for 10s, superspeed for 5s (kinda redundant with swiftness) and now ONE stab for 5s.
SYG still significantly better imo, would probably get rid of swiftness on EotS for increased stability

Edited August 15, 2022 by crosknight.3041

[zeyeti.8347]

Next patch for ele will not be enough (but it's a huge step forward) as "crosknight" said up , we have still better skills to provide it as mech or as hfb .

And why is anet so shy of buffing ele skills , we have now "blink" for chrono on a 1200 range breakstun with 20 secs cd , and ele still have "lightning flash" on a 900 range with 40 sec cd !!! (oh yeah if forgot it deal some damage , more like fly's dmage ....) wtf seriously.

Anet go forward , all , ALL utility skills (even elite skills) need a complete rework ! conjure weapons are a mess to use in real fight , cantrips are useless , only used in pvp wvw, arcane skills have 100% crit. chance --> we dont care we have 95% chance of crit. anyway !!!

If you want some ideas , there you go :

Make conjure weapon a weapon swap like engi kits , but with a cooldown , make them all designed for a sole purpose (and why not with a munition counter , or only one use on skill 2 3 4 5 per weapon swap):

-ice bow : healing 

-hammer : cc

-lava axe : condi damage 

-earth shield : support (bit like firebrand f3 skills)

-fiery Gs : pure power damage.

And for god sake iam tired to play healtempest with air (wtf am i saying i dont play it ...) , because i want to provide fury (i dont care the others provide it , i want to provide fury as all other supports do )

As healtempest (correct me if iam mistaken) we want to play arcane , water and tempest ! Cause overload may be super usefull , having a 20sec cd (15 with alac. ) on your only sustain heal water attunement locked for that timing (because i like floating in a bubble)is kitten , everybody tells me that overloading water is a loss of heal ... wtf it's supposed to be the best healing skill the ele has and nobody use it cause no one want water attunement to get those freaking long cooldown , oh yes but we can stay in water a bit to compensate for that overload , and now what , might is running of in your subgroup , have to attune to fire quick ....(alacrity should have been put with bastion of elements , aplyed on auras with the healing , and to compensate get rid off the "gain ice aura whenever struck below x hp", and dont tell me it will be op , mech give alac with a whole bundle of other boons and also clean condi and breakstun so...)

Firebrands has mace who has permanent healing , mech has mentos kiss cool kit whenever he wants , ele dont need any more powerfull healing , he needs more access to his healing skills , or more ways to heal out of water attunement , oh yeah we have soothing water , well too bad firebrand has that too for 100% duration of the fight , and mech has his mecha pump barrier anyway also giving alac afk ...

I am happy to see those changes , dont get fooled , but thats far not enough, at least for healtempest. And no change fo catalyst whatsoever being the more complicated spec to get numbers off , but yes lets give mech pew pew afk rifle +5% damage... I will try the healtemp. but i fear my ham and my hfb , will be near, watching me from a corner with gloomy eyes telling me "hey pick me up dude healtemp suck , i will do a better job and with more ease".

Edited August 15, 2022 by zeyeti.8347

[crosknight.3041]

43 minutes ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

Anet go forward , all , ALL utility skills (even elite skills) need a complete rework !

i've been contemplating a bunch of reworks myself of both traits and utils. specifically for group play.
for example i hate mist form in pve. it's godly in pvp but has no team use in pve unless you're playing an ele tank or rushing past mobs like in arah. so one change i would give it is that it creates a healing waterfield at the initial position you casted it from. then a flip skill that lets you leave the form early (probably with a blast finisher on it).
i'd gave arcane wave some boon strip potential, with allies getting barrier based on the number of boons stripped, up to 3 per enemy.

i got way to much to list them all here and still need to get myself more feedback.