The greens from HT CM should be removed

[andreiblue.8231]

The encounter would still be very hard without them. The problem with this fight is that the greens are very far from the boss and mobility skills+portals are required to do them and only the thief and mesmer can do them. It wouldnt be a big deal if there was only 1 green and 2 people were required to have mobility skills to take them, but right now the composition for this fight is too strict.

There is already a high dps requirement, deadly aoes, mechanics that instantly kill you if failed and the boss having more health so the fight is already very hard without the 3 greens.

I think only one green would be the best option, make it require 5 if you still want to keep the fight hard, but make it so that not that many people have to take mobility skills and portal in order to do this fight because only a few classes have access to those skills.

[Dib.4612]

Look. The problem is, people have invested so much time into this fight. If they would remove it, it would become so much easier and the people who already did overcome the challenge to gain the title would be furious. Because they would have spent a rediculous amount of time on a fight that's now easy. 

The prestige of Voidwalker would be anulled basically. 

Having said that. I hope they either never design a fight like this again, or review the mobility on certain classes. HAMs are a must have because they can walk around and drop reds while still giving boons on boss for example, there is no other class that does this. Even though you'd expect ranger to be able to do something similar with their pets.

And yes the group relies heavily on either classes with very big mobility or on portals, usually the latter, which makes mesmer mandatory too.

 

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

Its almost like we should have multiple tiers of difficulty to instanced content. If only there were a system where that was possible.. but unfortunately, such a thing just can't be done it seems.

 

Goes to play Fractals.

[Dean.3056]

I would prefer a different name than CM. People got used to the term CM and compare it to previous encounters where the CM is not that crazy as this encounter.

 

If they could separate encounters such as this one with a different name like Champion or Titan or whatever.

 

As for OP , that mechanic is not an issue the issue is some support are far superior than the others.

Edited October 23, 2022 by Dean.3056

[Cyninja.2954]

On 10/22/2022 at 5:06 AM, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

Its almost like we should have multiple tiers of difficulty to instanced content. If only there were a system where that was possible.. but unfortunately, such a thing just can't be done it seems.

 

Goes to play Fractals.

 

Story mode with Aurene buff.

Story mode without Aurene buff.

Strike normal mode.

Strike CM mode.

 

Almost like T1-4 fractals. Wait no, exactly the same actually, just named differently.

Edited October 23, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Ashantara.8731]

On 7/19/2022 at 11:25 AM, andreiblue.8231 said:

only the thief and mesmer can do them

Hmm... Mechanists and Dragonhunters also come to mind.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

HT CM is not the same difficulty as other CMs, and it shouldn't even be on the same tier. On top of this the normal mode HT while the harder strike mission is even below some raid CMs (maybe even Sunqua CM in Fractals), which doesn't even begin to adequately prepare players for the CM.

 

Having a binary on/off system to difficult isn't the same as having an actual difficulty system, its like playing a video game that only has "Easy" and "Nightmare". Yes, it can be cleared, but the amount of effort is 1. Not worth the reward beyond the one-time benefits, 2. Effectively robs us of a fourth, actual CM strike.

 

I'm not saying everything should be completable by pugs, but if even your average static can't complete it daily, then a middle-ground difficulty level needs to be reconsidered.

 

I don't know why players defend badly designed systems that don't scale well, or age well.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Mariyuuna.6508

[Cyninja.2954]

41 minutes ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

HT CM is not the same difficulty as other CMs, and it shouldn't even be on the same tier. On top of this the normal mode HT while the harder strike mission is even below some raid CMs (maybe even Sunqua CM in Fractals), which doesn't even begin to adequately prepare players for the CM.

So this is a pure naming issue?

Dhuum CM is also far above say Cairn CM or Samarog CM. CM only means:"more difficult fight than the normal version". Different fractals even on the same tier also have a difference in difficulty. As do raids.

41 minutes ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

Having a binary on/off system to difficult isn't the same as having an actual difficulty system, its like playing a video game that only has "Easy" and "Nightmare". Yes, it can be cleared, but the amount of effort is 1. Not worth the reward beyond the one-time benefits, 2. Effectively robs us of a fourth, actual CM strike.

It's not a binary difficulty system for raids or strikes. You are simply ignoring the easiest difficulties because they do not apply to your desired scaling in case of strikes and you treat raids as though hey were all equally difficulty, which they are not.

You are also comparing apples to oranges here. Most CMs for raids and especially strikes, have new mechanics which build on top of the normal fight. The fractal scaling is mostly a simple numeric increases (with at most 1 additional ability kicking in).

It is overall more messy due to the inconsistencies in difficulty between the total amount of fights and the lower amount compared to say the total amount of fractals makes it seem less structured. If one was interested though, one could make a ladder of difficulty for all raid/strike content and that ladder would not be binary in the least. It would probably be 7-9 steps deep if not more.

41 minutes ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

I'm not saying everything should be completable by pugs, but if even your average static can't complete it daily, then a middle-ground difficulty level needs to be reconsidered.

Most average static are playing this game on a PUG level compared to other MMORPG instanced content design.

The metric shouldn't be static or not static, because so far the required performance for completing content has been low.

41 minutes ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

 

I don't know why players defend badly designed systems that don't scale well, or age well.

The only thing badly designed is the inconsistency in which instanced content has been designed in the past. Since EoD (and even IBS) this inconsistency has been somewhat lessened, but the amount of strikes available is still low.

If ones were to scale the current strikes, it would probably go somewhere along the lines of:

SP > Fraenir > Voice/Claw > Whisper > Mai Trin > Boneskinner (unless cheesing with 3-4 heals) > Junkyard > KO > Mai Trin CM > Junkyard CM > HT > KO CM > HT CM

(this list could be expanded upon with raids and story mode strikes, but let's keep it short)

With HT CM being far above any other difficulty, not due to difficult mechanics but rather the extensive nature of the fight. When ignoring HT CM, which is more a hail marry let's do this 1nce thing it seems, the overall difficulty for instanced 10 man content is rather well balanced against each other, if not focusing on only 1 encounter.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Bakeneko.5826]

5 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

The fractal scaling is mostly a simple numeric increases (with at most 1 additional ability kicking in).

I hope you are not serious. All CM fractals have additional mechanics, some mechanics are even tied to tier.

[Cyninja.2954]

12 minutes ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

I hope you are not serious. All CM fractals have additional mechanics, some mechanics are even tied to tier.

Yes, which is exactly why I was talking about T1-4 because CMs in fractals actually are binary in regards to their difficulty, same as raids normal and CM mode....

Sometimes taking 10 seconds to read and comprehend is more valuable than rage answering.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Bakeneko.5826]

21 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Yes, which is exactly why I was talking about T1-4 because CMs in fractals actually are binary in regards to their difficulty, same as raids normal and CM mode....

Sometimes taking 10 seconds to read and comprehend is more valuable than rage answering.

Compare CMs to CMs, not comparing apples to oranges is more valuable than rage answering.

[Cyninja.2954]

On 10/25/2022 at 10:52 AM, Bakeneko.5826 said:

Compare CMs to CMs, not comparing apples to oranges is more valuable than rage answering.

I wasn't comparing CMs. I was comparing scaling of content. T1-4 in fractals mirrors the design for strikes with story mode with buff, story mode without buff, normal mode and CM mode.

Fractal CMs in this case mirror raid CMs where the encounter sees new mechanics introduced, where in strikes most mechanics are already in place in the easier modes but made more severe in higher ones.

Again, your input has nothing to do with this thread, but I am glad you still refuse to check what was being written about. Better double down on the trolling instead of moving on I guess.

Edited October 26, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[andreiblue.8231]

On 10/23/2022 at 1:04 PM, Dean.3056 said:

I would prefer a different name than CM. People got used to the term CM and compare it to previous encounters where the CM is not that crazy as this encounter.

 

If they could separate encounters such as this one with a different name like Champion or Titan or whatever.

 

As for OP , that mechanic is not an issue the issue is some support are far superior than the others.

But also mobility that's mandatory here and which not all class have.

[Wolfshade.9251]

So what you're suggesting is to remove one of the main CM mechanics because the most difficult fight in the game is too hard?

 

What's next? Remove the echo of Dhuum from the CM because people keep getting caught by it?

 

[andreiblue.8231]

15 minutes ago, Wolfshade.9251 said:

So what you're suggesting is to remove one of the main CM mechanics because the most difficult fight in the game is too hard?

 

What's next? Remove the echo of Dhuum from the CM because people keep getting caught by it?

 

So what you are saying is: I only read the title and going to assume a ton of BS.

[Wolfshade.9251]

Just now, andreiblue.8231 said:

So what you are saying is: I only read the title and going to assume a ton of BS.

No, but your arguements for removing greens are incredibly basic and could be simplified by "it's too hard".  Going by each of your points:

- Most classes have at least some mobility options. As much as it sucks, it's completely possible to do HT CM without portals. Strict composition often results from the playerbase approach, not just the encouter itself. Remember when druid was the most common Dhuum kite while most classes can do pretty much the same thing? Or chrono tank, or hfb tank, or ham tank. All of those jobs *can* be done on other classes - it just requires skill.

- If the encounter didn't include instadeath moments then the players would find a way to cheese the mechanics, defeating the point. Like the sylvari strat which thankfully got nuked.

 

[andreiblue.8231]

18 minutes ago, Wolfshade.9251 said:

No, but your arguements for removing greens are incredibly basic and could be simplified by "it's too hard".  Going by each of your points:

- Most classes have at least some mobility options. As much as it sucks, it's completely possible to do HT CM without portals. Strict composition often results from the playerbase approach, not just the encouter itself. Remember when druid was the most common Dhuum kite while most classes can do pretty much the same thing? Or chrono tank, or hfb tank, or ham tank. All of those jobs *can* be done on other classes - it just requires skill.

- If the encounter didn't include instadeath moments then the players would find a way to cheese the mechanics, defeating the point. Like the sylvari strat which thankfully got nuked.

 

Some classes dont have any options for mobility so 2 HAMs and 2 virtuoso are basically mandatory to the fight. Also no, not all classes can kite because kiting requires having survivability and a lot of self healing which not all classes have access to and tanking requires skills that block attacks or give aegis in most fights.

You seem to forget that downed players can revive by killing a normal mob that spawns, something which you dont see in any other strike or raid.

[Wolfshade.9251]

5 hours ago, andreiblue.8231 said:

Some classes dont have any options for mobility so 2 HAMs and 2 virtuoso are basically mandatory to the fight. Also no, not all classes can kite because kiting requires having survivability and a lot of self healing which not all classes have access to and tanking requires skills that block attacks or give aegis in most fights.

You seem to forget that downed players can revive by killing a normal mob that spawns, something which you dont see in any other strike or raid.

It's completely possible to do without virtuosos - been there, done that. Bit harder without mechanist healers but not impossible.

Kiting and tanking is mainly about skill. I kite on a full harrier scrapper. Not much vitality, no toughness, my only self-heals are f1, medkit4 and medkit3into5 combo. Seen people do it on a tempest, dps scourge or dps mechanist too.  You don't need a block or aegis to tank most bosses (seen druids tank deimos just fine, personally I go with low-toughness dps quick scrapper on most fights, the barrier is more than enough). If you're good enough, you can tank most bosses with just 5 toughness and a bit of thinking - no aegis and blocks needed. Every class has a dodge button.

Indeed, you can revive by killing mobs. But in one of the developer blogs it was mentioned that the insta-kill mechanics were intentional. They didn't say it outright, but I guess they're not too happy with how most groups handle boneskinner (ignore mechanics, just overheal).

[Bakeneko.5826]

1 hour ago, Wolfshade.9251 said:

They didn't say it outright, but I guess they're not too happy with how most groups handle boneskinner (ignore mechanics, just overheal).

Should be normal for all raids/strikes/fractals imho. Way too many players greed dps, go down and need petting to get up

[Sylvia.4870]

     ... Only if there were more options  for selecting difficulties  aside Normal mode  and Challenge Mode...

  Choose the Difficulty on the Raid Stages:

      Rookie (Very Easy)   

      Veteran (Easy)

      Elite (Normal)

      Champion (Hard)

      Legendary (Very Hard)

      Apocalyptic (Hardcore!)

      Hellfire (Nightmare!)

     

 

Edited October 27, 2022 by Sylvia.4870