Hero System

[RipPaw.5129]

     So I am sure someone had already brought this up and there are always going to be people against it but I would like the Hero System back from Guild Wars.

     The system was extremely useful for solo minded players especially when it came to dungeons. Those of us that played GW Nightfall know about it. I understand that GW2 is designed to seek out guilds/players to play with and the story can be done without ever entering a dungeon yet I (hopefully others as well) want this system introduced into GW2.

     For those that are not aware, Hero System was a system where you would unlock Heroes as you leveled up or progressed through the game. Those Heroes then were used as a replacement for missing party members or a helper while you were soloing a dungeon. They weren't very smart but they helped a lot in their own way.

     I do not believe that this will break the game or the social aspect of it in any way. I really hope ArenaNet will consider adding it to GW2.

[Cyninja.2954]

15 minutes ago, RipPaw.5129 said:

I do not believe that this will break the game or the social aspect of it in any way. I really hope ArenaNet will consider adding it to GW2.

 

So, how did the hero system affect GW1? Did it promote more player and player interaction or not?

[Sobx.1758]

Nah, substituting players with bots in an mmorpg is a bad idea and almost always will be unless the mmorpg is pretty much dead anyways, while the only remaining players are whales willing to keep the servers running.

Edited July 19, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Vidit.7108]

In HoT and a lot of post HoT story content they've leaned into giving you an npc party but some of the AI is pretty useless. Something customizable would be great particularly for Dungeons, though It's kind of hard to say how useful it would be anywhere else. They've not really, until Icebrood Saga, incorporated learning group content through the story, and otherwise have avoided giving players any clues on how to clear group content.

Heroes/Henchmen in gw1 weren't to my memory programmed to do a whole lot besides combat and dungeons/strikes/raids/fractals are very mechanic heavy. Having the heroes do mechanics is possible but that's a lot more work than what the old system was capable of. FFXIV added a similar system a few years back for story related dungeons, though their bots clear content at a fixed rate and loot is reduced and they can't do their version of dailies. It's also not available for most group content.

It would be nice but it's the kind of thing this game needed to have in mind at the start, maybe if they rework dungeons they can work on giving players an AI option for the story mode.

[RipPaw.5129]

1 hour ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

 

So, how did the hero system affect GW1? Did it promote more player and player interaction or not?

I believe it promoted player cooperation. We did not have to wait around for people to join and were able to complete content without looking for others with just a few friends. I think that it will actually help players that dislike elitists and their type of thinking and even promote dungeon farming outside of LFG.

[RipPaw.5129]

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Nah, substituting players with bots in an mmorpg is a bad idea and almost always will be unless the mmorpg is pretty much dead anyways, while the only remaining players are whales willing to keep the servers running.

It was a good system though. The system does not replace players it just gives those that like to play with just their friends a chance at all the content. Zooming through the dungeon does not help anyone accept the one that wants to zoom through it. Imagine there is only 3 of you. You want to do a dungeon but can't. When you find a group, one of the folks in that group expects you to know everything about the fights and does not tell you. You ask but he keeps pushing further into the dungeon. Whether he can solo it or not he is ruining game play for the rest. This system provides another option that is all it does. The follower does not have to be with you everywhere you go, place them outside of the dungeons like they were in Nightfall.  

[Cyninja.2954]

12 minutes ago, RipPaw.5129 said:

I believe it promoted player cooperation. We did not have to wait around for people to join and were able to complete content without looking for others with just a few friends. I think that it will actually help players that dislike elitists and their type of thinking and even promote dungeon farming outside of LFG.

You believe it promoted player cooperation, yet in the very next sentence you give an example how player interaction was reduced?

Listen I get why people would love to solo play this game, reducing interaction with others to the amount they feel they are comfortable with. That's still a dangerous path to take IF the goal is to have a successful MMORPG.

GW1 introduced heroes towards the end of its lifecycle. There was a reason for that.

Edited July 19, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Sobx.1758]

12 minutes ago, RipPaw.5129 said:

It was a good system though.

Well, that's your opinion. I think it wasn't.

Quote

The system does not replace players it just gives those that like to play with just their friends a chance at all the content.

But.. it literally does aim at replacing players. You said it yourself in the post above:

20 minutes ago, RipPaw.5129 said:

(...)complete content without looking for others with just a few friends. I think that it will actually help players that dislike elitists and their type of thinking and even promote dungeon farming outside of LFG.

Lets not pretend that you needed to admit it yourself though. That system is just aimed at replacing players. That's what it does and you pretty clearly know it, judging by what you wrote. Apparently you're just not comfortable with calling it for what it is?

 

12 minutes ago, RipPaw.5129 said:

Imagine there is only 3 of you. You want to do a dungeon but can't. When you find a group, one of the folks in that group expects you to know everything about the fights and does not tell you.

3 players or less, it's all fine. You announce the group through lfg and put a relevant description saying what your goals are (for example: "not rushing", "story", "first time", "watching cutscenes" and so on). Players that are "rushing alone" don't need to join your group to complete the content alone, so I wouldn't expect many people playing solo forcefully joining your group just to still play alone anyways.

Edited July 19, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[RipPaw.5129]

1 minute ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

You believe it promoted player cooperation, yet in the very next sentence you give an example how player interaction was reduced?

Listen I get why people would love to solo play this game, reducing interaction with others to the amount they feel they are comfortable with. That's still a dangerous path to take IF the goal is to have a successful MMORPG.

GW1 introduced heroes towards the end of its lifecycle. There was a reason for that.

Ok i see where you misunderstand. What i mean is the cooperation within the group of your friends. Yes, the negative aspect to this is people don't have to be social and make other friends to complete the content but there are two sides to a coin. I understand that devs can't be all inclusive and maybe it is too late for this system to be added but maybe for next exp they can test something similar out. 

[Devas.8104]

It would certainly be nice to have such allied heroes for 5v5 ranked PvP.

In all honesty, I am pretty sure they would perform better than most Gold players & lower.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

Players do a hundred times the damage of NPCs on a bad build, and a thousand times the damage on a good build. No amount of NPCs will ever be useful in an encounter.

 

They can't even revive players consistently in the story mode.

Edited July 19, 2022 by Mariyuuna.6508

[Vidit.7108]

Heroes were introduced in Nightfall, the game still had another expansion to go after that.

Before that, to my knowledge Henchmen (AI players) had always existed to complete content in GW1.  The difference was that Heroes could be customized, given skills, armor, and weapons, you collected.

[RipPaw.5129]

7 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Well, that's your opinion. I think it wasn't.

But.. it literally does aim at replacing players. You said it yourself in the post above:

Lets not pretend that you needed to admit it yourself though. That system is just aimed at replacing players. That's what it does and you pretty clearly know it, judging by what you wrote. Apparently you're just not comfortable with calling it for what it is?

You are right, I am not comfortable. Because I don't view it as a replacement, even though it is. Viewing it as so places a negative connotation on the system and I see is being positive.

[RipPaw.5129]

4 minutes ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

Players do a hundred times the damage of NPCs on a bad build, and a thousand times the damage on a good build. No amount of NPCs will ever be useful in an encounter.

 

They can't even revive players consistently in the story mode.

Are you talking about our current NPCs in GW2 or the ones from Nightfall? Here is a list of the things that heroes in nightfall could do, https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Hero_behavior. If you are interested of cause. 🙂

[Linken.6345]

8 minutes ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

Players do a hundred times the damage of NPCs on a bad build, and a thousand times the damage on a good build. No amount of NPCs will ever be useful in an encounter.

 

They can't even revive players consistently in the story mode.

They used to be able to revive and much more but Anet saw people useing npcs to not having to do anything in the story so they removed 90% of their brain power and now this is what we got.

[RipPaw.5129]

6 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

They used to be able to revive and much more but Anet saw people useing npcs to not having to do anything in the story so they removed 90% of their brain power and now this is what we got.

So people were taking advantage of the system and that is why we can't have nice things....

[mindcircus.1506]

5 hours ago, RipPaw.5129 said:

I understand that GW2 is designed to seek out guilds/players to play with and the story can be done without ever entering a dungeon yet I (hopefully others as well) want this system introduced into GW2.

You have highlighted good reasons "why not" and tossed them aside for "because I want it"
Solid case... I am sold.

[Asum.4960]

GW1 was from the ground up designed as a tactical 5 player RPG - everything was balanced around 5 players, be it the story or the mission instances that were essentially it's Open World. 

I don't know how you imagine such a system would work in GW2, in which the vast majority of content already favours solo play or is fairly easily solo'able. 

Are you just talking for instanced group content? Or is everybody going to run around with an army of NPC Mechanist's at all times? 

What about solo build craft? Why still sit in LFG if you can just activate perfect custom built heroes - how could this possibly not negatively impact the social aspects of the game (which are already hanging on by a thread)? 

Such a system might be something for Anet to consider as last investment before putting the game in maintenance mode if they intend to still keep the servers and Gemstore running for a few years as the game dies, but otherwise it's probably not a good idea. 

If they still want to go for a while the game rather needs to make more efforts to normalise and incentivize grouping and player interaction (which leads to more long term player engagement in online games), not even less.

Edited July 19, 2022 by Asum.4960

[RipPaw.5129]

1 hour ago, Asum.4960 said:

Are you just talking for instanced group content? Or is everybody going to run around with an army of NPC Mechanist's at all times? 

Yes this is what I am talking about. 🙂 Group Instances not the overworld.

 

Edited July 20, 2022 by RipPaw.5129

[samsar.9152]

1 hour ago, Asum.4960 said:

GW1 was from the ground up designed as a tactical 5 player RPG - everything was balanced around 5 players, be it the story or the mission instances that were essentially it's Open World. 

I don't know how you imagine such a system would work in GW2, in which the vast majority of content already favours solo play or is fairly easily solo'able. 

Are you just talking for instanced group content? Or is everybody going to run around with an army of NPC Mechanist's at all times? 

What about solo build craft? Why still sit in LFG if you can just activate perfect custom built heroes - how could this possibly not negatively impact the social aspects of the game (which are already hanging on by a thread)? 

Such a system might be something for Anet to consider as last investment before putting the game in maintenance mode if they intend to still keep the servers and Gemstore running for a few years as the game dies, but otherwise it's probably not a good idea. 

If they still want to go for a while the game rather needs to make more efforts to normalise and incentivize grouping and player interaction (which leads to more long term player engagement in online games), not even less.

Sometimes I find it big rest to be able to do stuff also alone. Whiners and toxic ppl gives me huge headache when doing for example instanced group content where you have to do stuff together and teamwork is keything. I loved to do for example dungeons alone in Guild Wars 1 with heroes. 

[RipPaw.5129]

13 minutes ago, samsar.9152 said:

Sometimes I find it big rest to be able to do stuff also alone. Whiners and toxic ppl gives me huge headache when doing for example instanced group content where you have to do stuff together and teamwork is keything. I loved to do for example dungeons alone in Guild Wars 1 with heroes. 

I really liked that system, maybe they can think of a way to resolve issues with the current LFG system, because their current one does not work. Half the time someone ends up leaving half way through because they are rushed or just frustrated with the others.

Edited July 20, 2022 by RipPaw.5129

[Linken.6345]

26 minutes ago, RipPaw.5129 said:

I really liked that system, maybe they can think of a way to resolve issues with the current LFG system, because their current one does not work. Half the time someone ends up leaving half way through because they are rushed or just frustrated with the others.

Yes you can fix this it is called communication talk to the group so your all on the same page.

If someone runs ahead kick and look for another person or complete it with 4 ppl.

2012 dungeons is so far down in diffculty settings that 2 competent people can do everything that dont require a minimum of 3-5 people like braziers/flame shields in citadel of flames p1 or torches citadel of flame part 3 as 2 examples.

[Nash.2681]

While heroes were a blessing in GW1, I just can't see how to make a similar system work in GW2, it's a completly different game. Also, GW1 was 100% instanced (ah, the good memories...) with no way for others to join you mid way, so I don't see the urgency to add such a feature.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have heroes I can equip with all the asc. stuff piling up over time, but I don't see any real gameplay value for heroes in GW2.

 

 

[Sobx.1758]

23 hours ago, RipPaw.5129 said:

You are right, I am not comfortable. Because I don't view it as a replacement, even though it is. Viewing it as so places a negative connotation on the system and I see is being positive.

Ok, at this point I'm a little confused about how you can understand it's aimed at replacing players, but still somehow not view it as something that does exactly that.

[Dodskrigaren.8759]

I mean, it wouldn't really work out well, and honestly there isn't a good reason to add that in.

 

In GW1, the Hero system wasn't added in, the Henchman system, that had been there since launch, got an overhaul and upgrade with Nightfall. It wasn't some added in anything. They just took a system they already had in place, realized that having that many kitten henchman sitting around in town to be hired was going to be a pain in the kitten, and reworked it as the Hero system. 

 

GW2 has nothing that is really close to that. Sure there is the oddball pet, and some even have basic commands you can give them, but that's it. Actual NPC's along for the quest/event are borderline useless, if they don't just make doing the quest harder because you have to keep them alive/rez them/whatever. 

 

And yeah, FF14 added in something similar for certain story dungeons. But it is horribly inefficient. The NPC's at best perform at a slightly subpar level in comparison to average players, and frequently barely perform at a level that could be called the bare minimum. And yeah, sure they follow mechanics. In the same way, all the time, even if the way they do the mechanic actually makes the encounter harder. They just follow their little AI code not really paying attention to anything else.

 

I get the appeal of having some NPC's around to pick up to do instanced content when you don't feel sociable, or don't really know if you might have to duck out of a run halfway through. But MMO's just generally aren't built that way. Having a good solid NPC companion for content takes a pretty dedicated AI, and most dev teams have other things to do in a multiplayer game beyond enhance the single player experience. At least you would hope so.