Malice Generation Rate and Marking

[Maugetarr.6823]

@Robert Gee.9246 @Karl McLain.5604

Now that you guys have had more time to look at it, have you thought about bringing the malice generation rate up a bit? I was thinking maybe 1 stack every 1.5/3 seconds for attacking/not attacking. This would put it at 7.5 seconds for the base and ~7.88 seconds for M7. Since you lose malice when switching targets, and Death's Judgement can only do big damage to your marked target now, it seemed like it would help Deadeye in teamfights a bit better.

Also, while I'm fine with the mark having a cast time, could you guys test out a 0.25 second cast time so it can be used for counterplay (when traited) on 0.75 second cast time abilities like eviscerate and heartseeker. It'd still require really fast reflexes to catch the cast, and I don't think the marked skills are so overwhelming that they warrant that long of a cast time, even though they are instant cast. You could increase the aftercast to make the overall time the same, but basically move the time the mark actually applies forward slightly.

Thanks

[Zacchary.6183]

That's fair for a small DPS boost.

[Elxdark.9702]

OR they could give us malice stacks through traits/cantrips. A good example is revealed malice.

That way is much more interactive and interesting than just increase the rate which imo will not help.Mark needs to be faster next patch.

[Asur.9178]

I get the feeling that they don't care. They had plenty of time since betas and demos till this patch to address this. They chose not to.

They are trying hard to push thief to be some kind of support bot, but that is failing and will continue failing because the class innately brings nothing else besides dps (most of which comes from AA because initiative is a broken system), whereas other classes are far better suited for such a role, because they innately bring amazing support skills.

[Maugetarr.6823]

@Elxdark.9702 said:OR they could give us malice stacks through traits/cantrips. A good example is revealed malice.

That way is much more interactive and interesting than just increase the rate which imo will not help.Mark needs to be faster next patch.

That could also work, but I'm a little worried about the difference between minimum and maximum malice gain shoehorning us into specific trait and utility choices which may eventually lead to an overall reduction in malice generation. I'm basing this off of how initiative generation was a few years ago where certain builds could generate a lot of initiative and others were very weak in initiative generation, so eventually they brought up the bottom and cut the top. I'm trying to avoid that sort of situation again.

[Elxdark.9702]

@Maugetarr.6823 said:

@Elxdark.9702 said:OR they could give us malice stacks through traits/cantrips. A good example is revealed malice.

That way is much more interactive and interesting than just increase the rate which imo will not help.Mark needs to be faster next patch.

That could also work, but I'm a little worried about the difference between minimum and maximum malice gain shoehorning us into specific trait and utility choices which may eventually lead to an overall reduction in malice generation. I'm basing this off of how initiative generation was a few years ago where certain builds could generate a lot of initiative and others were very weak in initiative generation, so eventually they brought up the bottom and cut the top. I'm trying to avoid that sort of situation again.

Good point.

Also one thing they should really do is make proc the malice as soon as you mark your target, so you get 1 malice as soon as you mark and you get the 2nd malice when your first attack hits, I think that would be much better than increasing the rate.I don't know but I have always thought it was bugged maybe it's intended but personally I think the malice feels so slow because you don't get the stack as soon as you mark/hit, you actually need to wait for the 4/2 seconds to stack malice which is really stupid.

[Maugetarr.6823]

@Elxdark.9702 said:

@Maugetarr.6823 said:

@Elxdark.9702 said:OR they could give us malice stacks through traits/cantrips. A good example is revealed malice.

That way is much more interactive and interesting than just increase the rate which imo will not help.Mark needs to be faster next patch.

That could also work, but I'm a little worried about the difference between minimum and maximum malice gain shoehorning us into specific trait and utility choices which may eventually lead to an overall reduction in malice generation. I'm basing this off of how initiative generation was a few years ago where certain builds could generate a lot of initiative and others were very weak in initiative generation, so eventually they brought up the bottom and cut the top. I'm trying to avoid that sort of situation again.

Good point.

Also one thing they should really do is make proc the malice as soon as you mark your target, so you get 1 malice as soon as you mark and you get the 2nd malice when your first attack hits, I think that would be much better than increasing the rate.I don't know but I have always thought it was bugged maybe it's intended but personally I think the malice feels so slow because you don't get the stack as soon as you mark/hit, you actually need to wait for the 4/2 seconds to stack malice which is really stupid.

That's a good idea too, but they probably wouldn't be able to do both at the same time or else the patience aspect they were aiming for would be lost. I think either would be fine though.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

The Malice rate can be faster, that's for sure. However, Rifle damage and skill cost need to be adjusted.

[babazhook.6805]

I wonder if it would be better if malice worked a bit more like Adrenaline.

Malice that is built up starts an abrubt decay when it expires or when the mark changed . IE at the 25 second point rather then dropping from max to zero instantly you get a rapid decay that halts as soon as you re-mark an enemy. Same on death or a mercy reset. I am not talking many seconds here either. it will be relatively quick as in if you do not re-establish another mark in say 2 seconds all malice gone. in 1 second you lose half of it and so on.

Obviously this means if a person quick enough they can use mercy and reset to another target where some of that malice carries over so I am not sure as yo how that will play out.

[Maugetarr.6823]

@babazhook.6805 said:I wonder if it would be better if malice worked a bit more like Adrenaline.

Malice that is built up starts an abrubt decay when it expires or when the mark changed . IE at the 25 second point rather then dropping from max to zero instantly you get a rapid decay that halts as soon as you re-mark an enemy. Same on death or a mercy reset. I am not talking many seconds here either. it will be relatively quick as in if you do not re-establish another mark in say 2 seconds all malice gone. in 1 second you lose half of it and so on.

Obviously this means if a person quick enough they can use mercy and reset to another target where some of that malice carries over so I am not sure as yo how that will play out.

I was hoping they would do this too, however with how they changed Death's Judgement, I don't think they'll make the change that way because they want that damage to build per target, meaning malice has to reset per target. I think reducing the time to build to maximum malice would hit the sweet spot between how long it currently takes to build per target in a teamfight and modifying it to be more like adrenaline.

[Maugetarr.6823]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:The Malice rate can be faster, that's for sure. However, Rifle damage and skill cost need to be adjusted.

Yeah, Rifle needs adjustments as I've mentioned in other threads, but I wanted to make suggestions to make it a viable trait line for other weapon sets first via 2 small adjustments, then rifle can be addressed.

[bq pd.2148]

@babazhook.6805 said:I wonder if it would be better if malice worked a bit more like Adrenaline.

Malice that is built up starts an abrubt decay when it expires or when the mark changed . IE at the 25 second point rather then dropping from max to zero instantly you get a rapid decay that halts as soon as you re-mark an enemy. Same on death or a mercy reset. I am not talking many seconds here either. it will be relatively quick as in if you do not re-establish another mark in say 2 seconds all malice gone. in 1 second you lose half of it and so on.

Obviously this means if a person quick enough they can use mercy and reset to another target where some of that malice carries over so I am not sure as yo how that will play out.

i think that will push DEs also into trickery cause without it you will jave 25s duration on 30s cd and it will decay but with trickery you can then keep it up. so mark duration needs an increase aswell then.

@Maugetarr.6823 said:I was hoping they would do this too, however with how they changed Death's Judgement, I don't think they'll make the change that way because they want that damage to build per target, meaning malice has to reset per target. I think reducing the time to build to maximum malice would hit the sweet spot between how long it currently takes to build per target in a teamfight and modifying it to be more like adrenaline.

the main issue was people getting oneshot 'out of nowhere' this change sadly also has made it important that you ensure nobody is running into the bullet, wich is pretty hard in groupfights. keeping the malice i think is not the problem as the people will still be marked + obvious DJ tell.

[Maugetarr.6823]

@MUDse.7623 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:I wonder if it would be better if malice worked a bit more like Adrenaline.

Malice that is built up starts an abrubt decay when it expires or when the mark changed . IE at the 25 second point rather then dropping from max to zero instantly you get a rapid decay that halts as soon as you re-mark an enemy. Same on death or a mercy reset. I am not talking many seconds here either. it will be relatively quick as in if you do not re-establish another mark in say 2 seconds all malice gone. in 1 second you lose half of it and so on.

Obviously this means if a person quick enough they can use mercy and reset to another target where some of that malice carries over so I am not sure as yo how that will play out.

i think that will push DEs also into trickery cause without it you will jave 25s duration on 30s cd and it will decay but with trickery you can then keep it up. so mark duration needs an increase aswell then.

@Maugetarr.6823 said:I was hoping they would do this too, however with how they changed Death's Judgement, I don't think they'll make the change that way because they want that damage to build per target, meaning malice has to reset per target. I think reducing the time to build to maximum malice would hit the sweet spot between how long it currently takes to build per target in a teamfight and modifying it to be more like adrenaline.

the main issue was people getting oneshot 'out of nowhere' this change sadly also has made it important that you ensure nobody is running into the bullet, wich is pretty hard in groupfights. keeping the malice i think is not the problem as the people will still be marked + obvious DJ tell.

Maybe they could make it actually a spell where the animation looks like a shot and the damage just casts on your target at the end? I dunno, damage is pretty weak if it's not your marked target, so maybe it could pierce instead if they're worried about projectile destruction not functioning on it anymore too.

[bq pd.2148]

@Maugetarr.6823 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:I wonder if it would be better if malice worked a bit more like Adrenaline.

Malice that is built up starts an abrubt decay when it expires or when the mark changed . IE at the 25 second point rather then dropping from max to zero instantly you get a rapid decay that halts as soon as you re-mark an enemy. Same on death or a mercy reset. I am not talking many seconds here either. it will be relatively quick as in if you do not re-establish another mark in say 2 seconds all malice gone. in 1 second you lose half of it and so on.

Obviously this means if a person quick enough they can use mercy and reset to another target where some of that malice carries over so I am not sure as yo how that will play out.

i think that will push DEs also into trickery cause without it you will jave 25s duration on 30s cd and it will decay but with trickery you can then keep it up. so mark duration needs an increase aswell then.

@Maugetarr.6823 said:I was hoping they would do this too, however with how they changed Death's Judgement, I don't think they'll make the change that way because they want that damage to build per target, meaning malice has to reset per target. I think reducing the time to build to maximum malice would hit the sweet spot between how long it currently takes to build per target in a teamfight and modifying it to be more like adrenaline.

the main issue was people getting oneshot 'out of nowhere' this change sadly also has made it important that you ensure nobody is running into the bullet, wich is pretty hard in groupfights. keeping the malice i think is not the problem as the people will still be marked + obvious DJ tell.

Maybe they could make it actually a spell where the animation looks like a shot and the damage just casts on your target at the end? I dunno, damage is pretty weak if it's not your marked target, so maybe it could pierce instead if they're worried about projectile destruction not functioning on it anymore too.

well ..piercing on DJ will cause alot of nerfs that i dont want :D

[Maugetarr.6823]

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Maugetarr.6823 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:I wonder if it would be better if malice worked a bit more like Adrenaline.

Malice that is built up starts an abrubt decay when it expires or when the mark changed . IE at the 25 second point rather then dropping from max to zero instantly you get a rapid decay that halts as soon as you re-mark an enemy. Same on death or a mercy reset. I am not talking many seconds here either. it will be relatively quick as in if you do not re-establish another mark in say 2 seconds all malice gone. in 1 second you lose half of it and so on.

Obviously this means if a person quick enough they can use mercy and reset to another target where some of that malice carries over so I am not sure as yo how that will play out.

i think that will push DEs also into trickery cause without it you will jave 25s duration on 30s cd and it will decay but with trickery you can then keep it up. so mark duration needs an increase aswell then.

@Maugetarr.6823 said:I was hoping they would do this too, however with how they changed Death's Judgement, I don't think they'll make the change that way because they want that damage to build per target, meaning malice has to reset per target. I think reducing the time to build to maximum malice would hit the sweet spot between how long it currently takes to build per target in a teamfight and modifying it to be more like adrenaline.

the main issue was people getting oneshot 'out of nowhere' this change sadly also has made it important that you ensure nobody is running into the bullet, wich is pretty hard in groupfights. keeping the malice i think is not the problem as the people will still be marked + obvious DJ tell.

Maybe they could make it actually a spell where the animation looks like a shot and the damage just casts on your target at the end? I dunno, damage is pretty weak if it's not your marked target, so maybe it could pierce instead if they're worried about projectile destruction not functioning on it anymore too.

well ..piercing on DJ will cause alot of nerfs that i dont want :D

Yeah, that's why I thought of a cast ability first. Even though the damage would be roughly the same as 3RB, it probably would get complaints.

Edit: Thinking about it, and not really a criticism of the design of rifle, I wish flavor wise all the skills would have been cast and not use projectiles. Sorta like you use shadow magic to shadowstep your bullets to the target right after they leave the barrel. http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/TR-116_rifle

[Urejt.5648]

i hope they buff deadeye because last patch did almost nothing for rifle deadeyee. I hope they buff rifle sneak and autoatack with malice and mark.

[Zacchary.6183]

@Urejt.5648 said:i hope they buff deadeye because last patch did almost nothing for rifle deadeyee. I hope they buff rifle sneak and autoatack with malice and mark.

All of the bugs are gone at least.

[bq pd.2148]

@Zacchary.6183 said:

@Urejt.5648 said:i hope they buff deadeye because last patch did almost nothing for rifle deadeyee. I hope they buff rifle sneak and autoatack with malice and mark.

All of the bugs are gone at least.

i still get 'out of range' on DJ when shooting moving targets close to the edge of the white circle, but still inside. other hits like AA /3RB will hit right after that, while enemy is moving away from me :D

[Zacchary.6183]

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Zacchary.6183 said:

@Urejt.5648 said:i hope they buff deadeye because last patch did almost nothing for rifle deadeyee. I hope they buff rifle sneak and autoatack with malice and mark.

All of the bugs are gone at least.

i still get 'out of range' on DJ when shooting moving targets close to the edge of the white circle, but still inside. other hits like AA /3RB will hit right after that, while enemy is moving away from me :D

That's actually good to know. Might want to submit a bug report if you think it is one. :o