LGBTQ...

[Vidit.7108]

It doesn't matter what real world demographics are, this is a fantasy world, and the creators of this world made the plant people outside of regular human gender norms. It doesn't need to be a main male character or the commander getting married to make some of the people in this topic happy, if there was a prominent event where two husbands raid a tomb together I'm sure that would put a smile on some people's faces. It's not unreasonable for people to want more like that, and it certainly isn't out of place within the world of GW2.

That said, the backbone of this game's character writing is characters in relationships. They didn't have to make this game true to life but in one aspect in which they did was to give characters loved ones. We know the relationship history of 4/5ths of Destiny's Edge and that's been a huge part of the story for the last decade. It's pretty normal in adult life for people you know to get married once in awhile. Whether you feel excited for characters like you would real people is a testament to the quality of the writing.

Lots of characters getting married doesn't make this game a dating sim, that is not the appeal they are going for. The appeal is to make you feel for the characters like you would a friend or co-worker. If a friend or co-worker you get along with is getting married and you aren't at least given a fleeting moment of happiness and excitement for them you've walled yourself off emotionally from people. If they did a good job of writing good characters then you should feel some happiness for them getting on with their lives. If your ability to feel happiness for them is based around entirely your ability to instead imagine yourself getting married to their partner, that's selfishness, perhaps narcissism.

The people asking for some representation, I'm sure some of them want to be able to place themselves in that situation, but their complaint stems more from a feeling of erasure and exclusion. There is a lot of reasons for me to not like Jenna/Logan because some of the writing for that is in a book and not in the game, or just not written very well. But I'm not given the same feeling of alienation just because a straight romance wasn't written very well and Kas/Jory is passable. There have been so many relationships peppered throughout the personal story and the expac there is no reason why there couldn't be two dudes somewhere talking about how much they love being around each other. (There are some examples already I know)

If you don't like how Anet has made relationships a focus in their story, there is no reason for you to be here arguing with people who say they want more relationships. It has been this way for a decade go play some other game, no one is forcing you to play this story. If it is distracting or intolerable or boring, there is plenty of fish in the sea when it comes to video games.

 

[SlayerXX.7138]

11 hours ago, Vidit.7108 said:

It has been this way for a decade go play some other game, no one is forcing you to play this story. If it is distracting or intolerable or boring, there is plenty of fish in the sea when it comes to video games.

"Rules for thee, but not for me"

Edited August 5, 2022 by Albi.7250

[Vanthian.9267]

20 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Lol... if you think that way, then the entire game is a form of indoctrination with the perspectives written in it and you should never expose kids to any form of media ever. Notice how no one ever says this kind of nonsense about a game where you go around killing people to level up

People do say this about games and have been for years.  They are often mocked and ridiculed for their beliefs. 

Ironic that people who throw stones at others beliefs then demand that their own be forced on everyone by law.   Completely validating the original claim they attacked others on. 

[Labjax.2465]

2 hours ago, Vanthian.9267 said:

People do say this about games and have been for years.  They are often mocked and ridiculed for their beliefs. 

Ironic that people who throw stones at others beliefs then demand that their own be forced on everyone by law.   Completely validating the original claim they attacked others on. 

You kinda lost me in all the vagueness there.

Anyway, bottom lining it, if it's "indoctrination" to represent people of marginalized identities in a video game rather than passively furthering their erasure by creating large, elaborate worlds in which they never show up, then by all means indoctrinate away. I will take that side any day of the week. That is a very easy decision.

[Bakeneko.5826]

5 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

You kinda lost me in all the vagueness there.

Anyway, bottom lining it, if it's "indoctrination" to represent people of marginalized identities in a video game rather than passively furthering their erasure by creating large, elaborate worlds in which they never show up, then by all means indoctrinate away. I will take that side any day of the week. That is a very easy decision.

Indoctrination: /ɪnˌdɑːk.trəˈneɪ.ʃən/ the process of repeating an idea or belief to someone until they accept it without criticism or question: religious/political/ideological indoctrination.

You literally described indoctrination. Force add something to games, till it becomes normal. That is literally indoctrination. Why is it so hard to understand, that no matter the orientation, character needs reason to exist in story as something more than unimportant extra. And if that reason is being homosexual, as whole personality is being homosexual, it is same as having dude who is pro weed and made everything in his life about weed.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

11 minutes ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

Indoctrination: /ɪnˌdɑːk.trəˈneɪ.ʃən/ the process of repeating an idea or belief to someone until they accept it without criticism or question: religious/political/ideological indoctrination.

You literally described indoctrination. Force add something to games, till it becomes normal. That is literally indoctrination. Why is it so hard to understand, that no matter the orientation, character needs reason to exist in story as something more than unimportant extra. And if that reason is being homosexual, as whole personality is being homosexual, it is same as having dude who is pro weed and made everything in his life about weed.

Apparently this is a really hard concept to get. Needing a character to actually fit the plot instead of popping out of thin air exclaiming "I'm gay \o/" 

[Bakeneko.5826]

1 hour ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Apparently this is a really hard concept to get. Needing a character to actually fit the plot instead of popping out of thin air exclaiming "I'm gay \o/" 

Yes. Rowling did great thing (words rarely said these days) and stated that Dumbledore was gay. And that info actually gave a lot of context for latest films, where it ties into a plot perfectly showing motivation behind actions of the cast. That is the kind of story telling that we need, not some box ticked on minority bingo for next big block buster.

Edited August 5, 2022 by Bakeneko.5826

[SlayerXX.7138]

2 hours ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

Indoctrination: /ɪnˌdɑːk.trəˈneɪ.ʃən/ the process of repeating an idea or belief to someone until they accept it without criticism or question: religious/political/ideological indoctrination.

And the Pendulum swings yet again. How is presenting something indoctrination. If just presenting a gay person counts as indoctrination, by your own logic we indoctrinate people to be hetero. We also indoctrinate people to wear cloths, cause its been a while since wearing cloths was being questioned in media. Is Presenting a family in media indoctrinating me to marry?

 

 

[Geoff Fey.1035]

It's kind of a shame that we see a lot of female-female LGBTQ in movies, games, etc. but less so for male-male. I get it, lesbians are marketable (i.e. sexualization), but still.

I was actually pretty delighted with all the various types in EoD. The only thing I found jarring was referring to Yao as "they" but that's more of a personal thing (didn't realize it was specifying agender at first).

[Labjax.2465]

5 hours ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

Indoctrination: /ɪnˌdɑːk.trəˈneɪ.ʃən/ the process of repeating an idea or belief to someone until they accept it without criticism or question: religious/political/ideological indoctrination.

You literally described indoctrination. Force add something to games, till it becomes normal. That is literally indoctrination. Why is it so hard to understand, that no matter the orientation, character needs reason to exist in story as something more than unimportant extra. And if that reason is being homosexual, as whole personality is being homosexual, it is same as having dude who is pro weed and made everything in his life about weed.

So you're just gonna ignore the part about marginalized identities being erased. I guess that doesn't matter to you, the lives of real people who are affected? Doesn't even reach your conscience to think about that?

You know hollywood wanted to age up the characters in Ender's Game, a book about literal children, so there could be a hetero romance subplot? And you're worried about someone putting a gay character in a game whose whole personality is being gay, when this game already has had gay people in the game whose whole personality is definitely not being gay and is handled just fine as an organic part of their life that only gets referenced or seen when it's relevant to the story? Talk about disingenuous.

Edited August 5, 2022 by Labjax.2465

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

12 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

So you're just gonna ignore the part about marginalized identities being erased. I guess that doesn't matter to you, the lives of real people who are affected? Doesn't even reach your conscience to think about that?

You know hollywood wanted to age up in the characters in Ender's Game, a book about literal children, so there could be a hetero romance subplot? And you're worried about someone putting a gay character in a game whose whole personality is being gay, when this game already has had gay people in the game whose whole personality is definitely not being gay and is handled just fine as an organic part of their life that only gets referenced or seen when it's relevant to the story? Talk about disingenuous.

First of all, I don't think he/she is oppose to having a male gay character on the game.
Second of all this game is an awful example because the plot is beyond bad.

That being said, of course you can put a male gay char or couple on game. But you need to get the characters fleshed out and have a plot that makes use of that, instead of having the char or couple say every 5minutes "did you knew we're gay".
Again this game plot is atrocious but still make a male gay couple with the same interactions as Marjorie and Jory and it's fine, make a couple responding to question such as "how are we going to kill dragons?" like "you know, gay stuff." and it has no point.

Edited August 5, 2022 by Lincolnbeard.1735
typos

[Labjax.2465]

8 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

First of all, I don't think he/she is oppose to having a male gay character on the game.
Second of all this game is an awful example because the plot is beyond bad.

That being said, of course you can put a male gay char or couple on game. But you need to get the characters fleshed out and have a plot that makes use of that, instead of having the char or couple say every 5minutes "did you knew we're gay".
Again this game plot is atrocious but still make a male gay couple with the same interactions as Marjorie and Jory and it's fine, make a couple responding to question such as "how are we going to kill dragons?" like "you know, gay stuff." and it has no point.

This is looking a lot like a field with some scarecrows in it.

This game: has gay characters whose gayness is organically part of the story and no gay characters whose gayness is their whole personality

Some people: how about more men being gay

Some other people: hey now, no adding characters whose gayness is their whole personality!

It's really telling on yourselves about what you think gayness is.

[Labjax.2465]

5 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Again, no one is against adding male gay characters as long as the plot is good (which in case of gw2 is a lost cause since the story is garbage). Same thing replacing gay with straight, there's no point in adding a char whose whole purpose is screaming "I like the opposite sex!"
Heck you can even add a whole roster of gay characters, destiny's lgbt if you will, as long as there is a point in it.

You and zola are the ones distorting what everyone is saying to fit your narrative.
No one (or at least almost no one) gives a kitten about a char being straight/gay/bi/trans or whatever.

Woweee. I challenge someone who called inclusion of marginalized identities "indoctrination" and then after you repeatedly insist that people want a character whose whole identity is being gay and that must be avoided (despite no indications this is what people are asking for or what Anet would do), you have the gall to say I'm distorting what other people are saying.

If you really don't "give a kitten about a char being straight/gay/bi/trans or whatever," then why in the world are you trying to undermine people who are asking for that? Your supposed cares and actions do not line up here.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

Weeeeelp. 😑

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

1 hour ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Woweee. I challenge someone who called inclusion of marginalized identities "indoctrination" and then after you repeatedly insist that people want a character whose whole identity is being gay and that must be avoided (despite no indications this is what people are asking for or what Anet would do), you have the gall to say I'm distorting what other people are saying.

If you really don't "give a kitten about a char being straight/gay/bi/trans or whatever," then why in the world are you trying to undermine people who are asking for that? Your supposed cares and actions do not line up here.

Yes you're, I dare you to quote me where I said that people want a character whose whole identity is being gay.
I'm not undermining anything. I said and I'll say it for the 2316783 time in this thread, you can put whatever you want in any story as long as it fits. 
Does gay/bi/straight/lesbian/trans/dragonlovers/aliens/covid negationists/playboys/playgirls fit into GW2? Absolutely! GW2 story is gaaarbaaageeee.

EDIT: My third post on this thread, page 5: "As for the game itself, sure, whatever floats your boat."

Edited August 5, 2022 by Lincolnbeard.1735

[Labjax.2465]

12 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Does gay/bi/straight/lesbian/trans/dragonlovers/aliens/covid negationists/playboys/playgirls fit into GW2? Absolutely! GW2 story is gaaarbaaageeee.

Comparing people who don't believe in covid with LGBTQ. Making mockery of real marginalized identities that are erased. I don't need to say anything more here. You made it clear what kind of person you are on this.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

2 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Comparing people who don't believe in covid with LGBTQ. Making mockery of real marginalized identities that are erased. I don't need to say anything more here. You made it clear what kind of person you are on this.

Sure, because I didn't include "straight" on the sentence or anything. Cry me a river.

[SlayerXX.7138]

3 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

This game: has gay characters whose gayness is organically part of the story and no gay characters whose gayness is their whole personality

Some people: how about more men being gay

Some other people: hey now, no adding characters whose gayness is their whole personality!

It's really telling on yourselves about what you think gayness is.

- Me playing EOD in peace.

- Marjory at the of top her lungs "Character i never heard of HAD A HUSBAND AND A CHILD" Shortly before forgiving Mai anyway. To never be mentioned again or factor into the plot in any form what so ever.

On 8/3/2022 at 9:36 PM, Zola.6197 said:

It’s only queer characters that need to have narrative justification to be included, for some reason.

Logan's love for his queen is the catalyst of the conflict in destinys Edge. I cant remember any hint of Sexuality or Romance in Rytlock. The only Reason I know he is hetero is because his son became the villian in ISB. Gorrik is for all intents and purposes  Asexual, which will probably change so tami gets a Boyfriend. But maybe not? The last mention of Braham, basically a main character, Eirsson having any hetero tendency's was in Season 1? Canach has shown romantic interest in a woman when exactly? Gorrik's brother didn't make it out of season 4 so we have no idea. Trhaearne Relationship was the introduction to the nightmare Court. I probably missed something, but that are all male Protags i can think of right now. Besides Braham 10 years ago the male cast is mostly hetero for the plot to happen. 

 

Edited August 5, 2022 by Albi.7250

[The Greyhawk.9107]

5 minutes ago, Albi.7250 said:

- Me playing EOD in peace.

- Marjory at the of top her lungs "Character i never heard of HAD A HUSBAND AND A CHILD" Shortly before forgiving Mai anyway.

Logan's love for his queen is the catalyst of the conflict in destinys Edge. I cant remember any hint of Sexuality or Romance in Rytlock. The only Reason I know he is hetero is because his son became the villian in ISB. Gorrik is for all intents and purposes  Asexual, which will probably change so tami gets a Boyfriend. But maybe not? The last mention of Braham, basically a main character, Eirsson having any hetero tendency's was in Season 1? Canach has shown romantic interest in a woman when exactly? Gorrik's brother didn't make it out of season 4 so we have no idea. Trhaearne Relationship was the introduction to the nightmare Court. I probably missed something, but that are all male Protags i can think of right now. Besides Braham 10 years ago the male cast is mostly hetero for the plot to happen. 

 

I don't recall Marjory ever forgiving Mai at all, even after she'd died.

[Labjax.2465]

28 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

You called? Yes, including so called "marginalized identities" is form of indoctrination and very negative one on the mental health for young people. Kids soak with information like sponges and by promoting/including something unnatural/unusual may create big misunderstandings and in worst case scenarios take away their potential future. MMORPG isn't type of game for that kind of stuff in any way or form. If you want to be "represented" in games, go find fitting Visual Novel or some E**ge that is focused on said topics. 
Why do you need so badly that forced "acknowledgement" in a video game? Sure LGB people exist, anyone has a kink or two, but doesn't mean they shove it on random people or demand game developers to include it asap just because.

It's not unnatural and it isn't a kink. These are just ways that some people are and they get systemically marginalized and erased for it.

[Opopanax.1803]

2 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

It's not unnatural and it isn't a kink. These are just ways that some people are and they get systemically marginalized and erased for it.

This is the nature of the "culture wars" right now.  This is exactly the issue that is being discussed by both sides in this thread right now.  Take GW2 as our example. 

 

China doesnt allow this type of thing in gaming right now.  They say that some of these people (trans, for example) are actually hurting/unhealthy and so shouldnt be promoted because it means that they [China] would be promoting a lifestyle of dysfunction which is morally wrong. 

What the pro-trans folks would say is that this is marginalizing and erasing because it is normal, so trying to address it/suppress it is morally wrong and that these people should be represented and encouraged instead of marginalized.

 

How you come down on how you think this sexualization plays out very much determines whether you think that it should be promoted or not. 

***

In my opinion it is too bad that in general there cant be more reasonable discussion, but I think that on both sides of the isle you have people that are so committed out of the gate to what they think is morally right that it is very difficult to have a conversation.  What  ever happened to the days of disagreeing on political beliefs but still being friends at the end of the day?  Or disagreeing on sexuality, but still being friends?  Or believing in different religions but still loving each other?

 

 

 

Edited August 6, 2022 by Opopanax.1803