Power Willbender and Scepter excluded from 8/23/2022 balance pass

[Falseprophet.1502]

Uhhh?

Power Willbender is in just as bad of shape as Dragonhunter and got absolutely no acknowledgement. What about Scepter? 

 

Maybe we just have to hope for the October balance patch for these things to get addressed? 

[cat.8975]

To be fair, the only DH-specific change they made was to increase LB autos by a little bit lol

The changes to GS should give every power build another ~800 dps or so.

[Yaki.9563]

29 minutes ago, cat.8975 said:

To be fair, the only DH-specific change they made was to increase LB autos by a little bit lol

The changes to GS should give every power build another ~800 dps or so.

Which is hilarious because their stated goal was to improve under-utilized weapons. GS is the most common weapon used by Guardians.

[Falseprophet.1502]

35 minutes ago, cat.8975 said:

To be fair, the only DH-specific change they made was to increase LB autos by a little bit lol

The changes to GS should give every power build another ~800 dps or so.

 

 

You have a good point but, they did talk about exploring ways to improve LB later down the road (50% movement reduction to True Shot rather than a root), but it went back to the drawing board. 

 

DH probably will see a bit more than a 800 dps increase due to the modifiers of the spec. Hammer may be decent on DH to align with the burst window. But, Willbender won't likely benefit much from these changes because of how dependent it is on Restorative Virtues. 

 

We're heading back to the pre-2017 days, boys. 

[cat.8975]

6 minutes ago, Yaki.9563 said:

Which is hilarious because their stated goal was to improve under-utilized weapons. GS is the most common weapon used by Guardians.

The changes to hammer were (comparatively) much larger. While I'm still hoping for an eventual scepter rework and some tweaks to sword, I'd still hope for GS to be the best weapon for power damage just due to the design of its skills.

[Massimoni.9453]

8 hours ago, cat.8975 said:

To be fair, the only DH-specific change they made was to increase LB autos by a little bit lol

The changes to GS should give every power build another ~800 dps or so.

Does anybody know what pDH and pWB currently bench roughly? I can't find any data on it and am too new on those specs to try it out myself. However seeing how the common drop was around ~4k I'd guess they currently sit around 32k? 800 DPS increase is definitely better than nothing (which I'm adressing in the last paragraph), but doesn't really seem to make them worthwhile playing when stuff like pSlb got boosted by several k/sec to 38k while being arguably easier to play even or stuff like pMech exists.

 

Also anybody else feeling kinda strange how cWB and to a lesser extent cFB (yay, another patch that solely nerfs it without ANY compensation, the streak will soon reach a new multiplier) were completely left in the dust? cBS and cWB perform very similarly but only the former gets approached. Like I can understand that they wanna dodge a sh*tstorm but come on, pulling everything back up - which is a very good thing imo - to where they were before or even higher but then just ignoring some specs (there are also a few others from the top of my head like cScg, cRen, actually cMech now [I have no idea why this is getting a nerf while pMech is getting a hefty buff LOL]) is an interesting approach...

[otto.5684]

3 hours ago, Massimoni.9453 said:

Does anybody know what pDH and pWB currently bench roughly? I can't find any data on it and am too new on those specs to try it out myself. However seeing how the common drop was around ~4k I'd guess they currently sit around 32k? 800 DPS increase is definitely better than nothing (which I'm adressing in the last paragraph), but doesn't really seem to make them worthwhile playing when stuff like pSlb got boosted by several k/sec to 38k while being arguably easier to play even or stuff like pMech exists.

 

Also anybody else feeling kinda strange how cWB and to a lesser extent cFB (yay, another patch that solely nerfs it without ANY compensation, the streak will soon reach a new multiplier) were completely left in the dust? cBS and cWB perform very similarly but only the former gets approached. Like I can understand that they wanna dodge a sh*tstorm but come on, pulling everything back up - which is a very good thing imo - to where they were before or even higher but then just ignoring some specs (there are also a few others from the top of my head like cScg, cRen, actually cMech now [I have no idea why this is getting a nerf while pMech is getting a hefty buff LOL]) is an interesting approach...

I think DH parses current around 33k. The changes to GS AA are nice. At best DH will be at 34k. Compared to pre June patch, we will be where we were relative to other classes.
 

The changes to hammer might make it viable. It definitely will in OW.

 

LB, not really. It needed way more than buffing AA to be remotely viable in PvE. I dunno why the changes were not similar to ranger LB.

 

It is better than nothing, but far from what is needed. DH might have better viability, but WB will remain out of play, both as power and condi.

Edited August 14, 2022 by otto.5684

[Falseprophet.1502]

3 hours ago, otto.5684 said:

I think DH parses current around 33k. The changes to GS AA are nice. At best DH will be at 34k.

You're being really generous. I would say ideally DH parses around 29-30k after a grind. 33k-34k is literally the levels they were at a year or two ago. DH received nothing but nerfs these past two years. I'd love to see a 33k parse for DH right now. 

 

Also, condi WB is fine. It's competitive. 

Edited August 14, 2022 by Falseprophet.1502

[Naxx.6203]

On 8/14/2022 at 4:44 AM, Yaki.9563 said:

Which is hilarious because their stated goal was to improve under-utilized weapons. GS is the most common weapon used by Guardians.

I don't know where you get that from but this was not their stated goal for that update.

This was  - "We focused on improving the number of viable core weapon choices across many professions in PvE"

[otto.5684]

19 hours ago, Falseprophet.1502 said:

You're being really generous. I would say ideally DH parses around 29-30k after a grind. 33k-34k is literally the levels they were at a year or two ago. DH received nothing but nerfs these past two years. I'd love to see a 33k parse for DH right now. 

 

Also, condi WB is fine. It's competitive. 

Condi WB is decent. Competitive not so much. It offers zero support, healing or CC, yet deals less damage than most other condi builds including FB.

[Naxx.6203]

2 hours ago, otto.5684 said:

Condi WB is decent. Competitive not so much. It offers zero support, healing or CC, yet deals less damage than most other condi builds including FB.

Willbender has about 1000cc in its kit.

[Falseprophet.1502]

4 hours ago, otto.5684 said:

Condi WB is decent. Competitive not so much. It offers zero support, healing or CC, yet deals less damage than most other condi builds including FB.

 

Oof. I'm really curious, do you play end-game PVE?

 

You're complaining about 700 less DPS than Condi FB in in ideal situations. You literally have easily interchangeable slots on WB where you can sub in Sanctuary/Roiling light for the signet or choose WHATEVER elite you want based off the encounter for a minimal loss because the spec relies so much on alacrity/restorative virtues. Want more healing on a pure DPS spec? Take Signet of Courage. Want to help provide more quickness/fury? Take Feel My Wrath. Want more CC? Take Heaven's Palm. Let's remind ourselves that Firebrand is forced to take Renewed Focus. On cWB, you can also take greatsword for the extra CC and essentially the same DPS as SW/T, too! I cannot believe these forums believe they live in a world where they do not think 35K+ dps is not competitive. 

 

I'm still waiting for this 33/34k parse you believe DH can get. Those are the same numbers a Radiance/Zeal pDH build hit for the past couple years before the changes in June.

[otto.5684]

9 hours ago, Nawrotex.9521 said:

Willbender has about 1000cc in its kit.

I count 1, which is rarely taken. Can you please enlighten me regarding the 999 remaining ones?

[Naxx.6203]

7 hours ago, otto.5684 said:

I count 1, which is rarely taken. Can you please enlighten me regarding the 999 remaining ones?

Heaven's Palm - 550cc (you always take it)

Signet Of Wrath - 300cc through immobilize (always have it or you can take Rolling Light)

Rolling Light - 300cc (you can take it instead of Signet Of Wrath so either you will have 300cc)

Greatsword 5 Pull - 150cc (Gs will be meta for condi builds after 23.08)

Specter 3 - 250cc through immobilize

 

Edited August 16, 2022 by Nawrotex.9521
typo

[Kodama.6453]

1 hour ago, Nawrotex.9521 said:

Specter 3 - 250cc through immobilize

Willbenders have their own little pocket thieves? 😮

[cat.8975]

2 hours ago, Nawrotex.9521 said:

Heaven's Palm - 550cc (you always take it)

 

It's 400 to the target and a 150 knockback to nearby enemies. The tooltip display of 550 is a bug.

[Naxx.6203]

4 minutes ago, cat.8975 said:

It's 400 to the target and a 150 knockback to nearby enemies. The tooltip display of 550 is a bug.

Oh didn't know that. Either way it's still hefty

[Borked.6824]

People don't actually like using Scepter, right?  That's a little masochistic if true.  That weapon on Guardian needs to go the way of the hammer.

[Arctarius.2649]

I want them to make the offhand sword usable. You know… the new weapon the elite spec came with??? 

[lorddarkflare.9186]

13 hours ago, Arctarius.2649 said:

I want them to make the offhand sword usable. You know… the new weapon the elite spec came with??? 

 

You mean in PvE? Because it is quite good in other modes.

[Falseprophet.1502]

Just now, lorddarkflare.9186 said:

 

You mean in PvE? Because it is quite good in other modes.

This is a PvE thread...

[lorddarkflare.9186]

2 minutes ago, Falseprophet.1502 said:

This is a PvE thread...

 

Right, the argument I am making is that new weapons won't necessarily be best-in-slot for every way you can play a new spec in every mode. And I think that's okay.

[Falseprophet.1502]

6 minutes ago, lorddarkflare.9186 said:

 

Right, the argument I am making is that new weapons won't necessarily be best-in-slot for every way you can play a new spec in every mode. And I think that's okay.

That's a poor argument for two reasons:

1. Recently, the the whole design philosophy has "play your way, better together." Hard to achieve that when something is so categorically bad.

2. Elite Specializations are supposed to drastically change how the core class plays. When you cut offhand sword out, what sets pWB apart from core Guardian? Not a whole lot. (in before boring pre-canned OmG bUt iT HaS mObiLiTy argument -- DH (before it got wrecked) or Firebrand never suffered on boss fights for years and they have a lot less mobility in a PvE encounter)

 

 

Offhand sword needs to be good or at least competitive in PvE.

Edited August 18, 2022 by Falseprophet.1502

[lorddarkflare.9186]

21 minutes ago, Falseprophet.1502 said:

That's a poor argument for two reasons:

1. Recently, the the whole design philosophy has "play your way, better together." Hard to achieve that when something is so categorically bad.

2. Elite Specializations are supposed to drastically change how the core class plays. When you cut offhand sword out, what sets pWB apart from core Guardian? Not a whole lot. (in before boring pre-canned OmG bUt iT HaS mObiLiTy argument -- DH (before it got wrecked) or Firebrand never suffered on boss fights for years and they have a lot less mobility in a PvE encounter)

 

 

Offhand sword needs to be good or at least competitive in PvE.

 

You are right. It should be better.

[Massimoni.9453]

18 hours ago, Falseprophet.1502 said:

DH (before it got wrecked) or Firebrand never suffered on boss fights for years

I kinda disagree on that, mainly on the (condition) Firebrand part and especially since EoD dropped. This definitely depends on your definition of "suffer" but in my book it's basically synonymous to "easily outclassed" and that is without a doubt the case in the current situation. Firebrand is great in fights that have kind of a blurry line between the viability of power and condition DPS, which is rather rare though at least in the raid environment. Still having to deal with condition buildup (which thankfully is on the faster side at least) and cleanses through enemies, being almost exclusively melee, having a very noticable chunk of your damage coming from lingering AoEs which only get a small bit of their potential if the boss is moving, the conditions themselves only lasting for rather short durations and on top of that having a comparatively low benchmark which gets outclassed by multiple POWER DPS with better ranged options. And when you then go ahead and add the fact that there is no improvement in sight because of "hurr durr guard op", at least from my perspective we will definitely enter a lengthy phase of suffering. You don't play it on power bosses as it can't dip into the big damage increase of low armor and also lacks the high burst of dedicated power classes, you don't play it in golem-like scenarios as it simply lacks the sustained DPS other classes offer and you also don't play it on the usual condition focused fights like Matthias and Largos as those just move out of your melee range and lingering AoEs far too often. I'm definitely a big firebrand DPS main but I can't remember when I've last touched it in raids or when I've seen someone else play it there outside of support roles; the only mode I get to use it to great success is fractals and there it's solely being carried by AotJ prestacking.

The biggest counter argument is usually "b-b-but free support" which completely ignores how even replacing your weakest link - the condition damage signet (180 condition damage btw) - drops you by roughly 1.5k DPS (I got that number by replacing it in a damage calculator in case anybody wonders). 36k -> 34.5k aka very free 🙃 Tomes are in-built support options but there we run into the problem of burning having the shortest condition duration. Sure you can go in and trigger a condition cleanse but doing more than that makes your burning stacks run out, and let's not act like firebrand is the only class where you have nice built-in supportive options (a few other examples that easily came to mind: Mesmer focus pull, Scourge scepter boon corruption, Engi toolbelts and many classes with passive vulnerability application especially important in fractals). The only replacement in my skill bar I'd gladly make is the elite mantra but that will also end next patch. Like cat.8975 said in another thread: Nerfing all of guard condi through a necessary core trait while targetting qFB is at the very least an extremely questionable approach. Imo this change needs to be reverted and implemented in a much more focused way or otherwise cWB and cFB WILL suffer with them having no improvement in sight.